jetstar moving Aussie jobs offshore?

[caneworm]

Heard on the "Rumour File", (radio 3AW, Melb) this morning that jetstar is moving their Flight Planning & Crewing departments to the Philippines

Anyone know anything about this?

[chickendrummer]

Manilaaaaaa!!!

[Jethro Gibbs]

where ever they will pay the least:ugh:

[ozmahseer]

I don't know about crewing but the Dispatch part is very true.:mad:

[Metro man]

Known as "Outsourcing" and has been going on for years in other industries. Ever wondered why when you've phoned a call center the person on the other end of the line has an Indian accent ?

High speed internet has made it possible to use cheap English speaking workers located thousands of miles away. Many jobs which don't require a "hands on" presence can be done from abroad; administration, accounts, customer service just to name a few.

Unfortunately that's the way things are going, look at the manufacturing and textile industries. Modern transport and communications has brought everything closer.

Time to think of reskilling if you're employed in an area at risk.

There are advantages though, I'm having dental work done in Bangkok at one third of what an Australian dentist would charge.:ok:

[John Citizen]

I'm having dental work done in Bangkok at one third of what an Australian dentist would charge


Excellent. Just what am I looking for, a dentist in Bangkok. Who do you recommend ?

[Metro man]

See PM as unable to post commercial link. Anyone else interested Google Promjai.

[ozmahseer]

Many jobs which don't require a "hands on" presence can be done from abroad; administration, accounts, customer service just to name a few.


spoken by a bloke who clearly doesn't have a clue what the dispatchers actually do.

The fact that this has not set alarm bells ringing worries me greatly.

[ANCDU]

More outsourcing, cadet pilots on ridiculous conditions, cancelling new hire courses......whats going on at Jetstar????? Maybe the pressure from Tiger, Air Asia etc is starting to hurt??? Is the golden child of Qantas becoming a bit of a problem?....More interesting times ahead. Qantas could be in a bit of sticky situation here, Virgin targeting the premium and Tiger attacking the lower end :ouch: ouch!

You can only outsource to a degree before it starts costing more in the long run because you lose the expertise in the core buisness. But i guess it makes someones KPI's look good.:}

[Metro man]

spoken by a bloke who clearly doesn't have a clue what the dispatchers actually do.


I'm well aware of what a dispatcher does, this requires a hands on presence to sort out problems and deal with the crew and passengers, which would be difficult from Manila. The "back office" part of dispatch could possibly be done else where.

If you think about it, air traffic control is "outsourced" in many countries. How many ATC centers are located at an airport ? Many controllers never see an actual aircraft as they are located in a building miles away.

Brisbane Centre is responsible for the airspace from 45 nm north of Sydney, up to the airspace boundaries with Indonesia and Papua New Guinea in the north, and east to the airspace boundaries with New Zealand and Fiji.

Better hope Airservices don't get the idea of outsourcing to solve the controller shortage or approach could be handing you over to someone in Asia for the enroute part of your flight.:eek:

[Willie Nelson]

It's fine with me to start outsourcing the dispatcher's jobs overseas so long as they don't start outsourcing the tech crew jobs........oh wait a minute:eek:

[chuboy]

Not sure where I heard it but the saying goes 'there's only one thing shareholders hate more than bad press and that's a bad quarterly report'.

It's the price Aussies have to pay if they want dirt cheap flights and a fat dividend at the end of the financial year...

[The Professor]

"It's the price Aussies have to pay if they want dirt cheap flights and a fat dividend at the end of the financial year..."

Its the price Aussies pay for enjoying uncompetitive wages.

[Icarus2001]

When are they outsourcing management to a more cost effective model?:hmm:

[Jethro Gibbs]

When are they outsourcing management to a more cost effective model?

Never they are very important people :ok:

[max1]

Its the price Aussies pay for enjoying uncompetitive wages.

Had to take the bait. What are competitive wages? What standard of living would we have with 'competitive' wages.

How come when managers wages are going through the roof it is due to the 'competition' to get the right people, and this same argument is used when trying to suppress any argument for a salary increase for anyone below 'management' level.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

I'm well aware of what a dispatcher does, this requires a hands on presence to sort out problems and deal with the crew and passengers

A flight dispatchers does not 'sort out problems' or deal with 'crew and passengers' - they (high level) create flight plans...

[Metro man]

Depending on which country and which airline the duties of a dispatcher involve flight planning, load sheets, take off speeds, met reports and a lot of running around making sure everything is happening as it's supposed to. It's a high pressure job needing good people skills.

Dispatchers are onboard dealing with the flight crew prior to departure and may get to deal with difficult passengers who are being off loaded.

Most airlines would be using computerised flight planning so you are unlikely to see a dispatcher with an enroute chart and wizz wheel.

The man on the ground may need to actually be there, office staff may not.

Had to take the bait. What are competitive wages? What standard of living would we have with 'competitive' wages.


In a free market supply and demand rule.

Qualified, skilled people who are in short supply command high wages. The licenced engineer signing out an aircraft which he has just changed the engine on is difficult and expensive to replace therefore he is well renumerated to encourage him to stay. If he takes his skills abroad he can expect good rewards.

Unqualified, unskilled and semi skilled people are rarely in short supply and don't have to be well paid as they can easily be replaced, unless the unions have a strangle hold on the company. In this case a baggage loader gets paid far more than he is worth considering his qualifications, time to train and nature of the work he performs. Should he seek work abroad eg Asia or the Middle East his pay will be a small fraction of what he would get in Australia. Similarly if he looked for a non union job at home with the skill requirement of loading bags his pay would also be much lower.

While said worker is quite happy to take the extra money he also looks for the lowest price when out shopping and has no qualms about driving a Korean car, wearing clothes from Fiji and using household goods which were made in China.

Now will someone explain how Australian companies have to pay certain people more than they are worth and still compete with foreign companies which don't ?

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Metro Man - the 'Flight Dispatchers' in Jetstar are only involved in flight planning activities within an IOC. And this discussion thread is related to Jetstar flight dispatchers.

[Metro man]

Well if they only do flight planning then it's a lot easier to have the job done overseas. Perhaps that was the idea when the company was started ?

[PPRuNeUser0198]

I am not too sure it's common in business to commence operations with the intention of outsourcing immediately or even in the early future, certainly I would not have thought that for Jetstar. I think it has more to do with evolution of the industry and the operating environment over time, particularly as the industry is so cyclical and in the low cost segment, margins are thin, significantly impacting on the bottom line.

I'm certainly not pro outsourcing, but economics drive these types of business and where opportunities exits to reduce costs, increase productivity and deliver an return or 'bottom line' year on year, especially if you're shareholder reportable - the solutions are relatively straight-forward, if the product can continue to be delivered in-line with the companies goals, strategy, roadmap etc, whilst maximising return and value.

[Firstofficer320]

What a bad impression for Qantas. Although Jetstar is now standing on its own two feet it's still part of the Qantas Group and I think it's completely unacceptable to outsource both Flight Planning and Load Planning overseas.

Wait until an incident occurs due to work overload for the guys in Manila or the fact that many of these workers will have no prior aviation experience. Speak to a phillipino and you will soon hear that they sound like a robot.

Jetstar could cut costs and modify contracts like Aer Lingus and BA have to stay afloat. They could look at other options like cutting the CEO, and other Big shots salary until the airline recovers from whatever mess it is in.

I CERTAINLY WILL NEVER FLY JETSTAR. BRING BACK AUSSIES JOB'S AND STOP OUTSOURCING.

[Kangaroo Court]

Pretty high and mighty of you all. They started the whole operation with Pay-For-Training and the rest of us shrugged our shoulders as we saw things going downhill from there.

For the record. Mesa, Valujet and most of the other PFT operations in America didn't amount to anything.

Do you think if you go through this profession as acting like a whore, you'll ever get respect from anyone?

"You pay peanuts..."

[Zapatas Blood]

"most of the other PFT operations in America didn't amount to anything."

Make a bet. There are lots of them.

[Metro man]

I think it was Southwest Air that started the 'pay for training' ball rolling, ie you had to have a B737 endorsement to work for them. Look at the size of them now. However they are a good company to work for, unionised but flexible workforce and didn't lay anyone off during the financial crisis.

Perfectly acceptable alternative to a full service airline for a flying career. Unfortunately not many other low cost airlines come close.

[Gingerbread]

And here is the reason why:Southwest Airlines, today's fastest-growing major airline, is partially employee-owned through stock options for pilots, and through a condition of company-wide profit-sharing that a quarter of the money go to buy company stock. There are millionaires and near-millionaires among rank-and-file employees of the highly unionized airline....
Sourced from:Employee Ownership in the Airlines (http://dept.kent.edu/oeoc/PublicationsResearch/Winter1999-2000/EmployeeOwnershipInTheAirlines.htm)

[standard unit]

They also encourage long term employment, pay above the industry standard and have a management regime that goes out of their way to listen to and value their employees.

In return they gain high levels of employee engagement, passenger satisfaction and the success and profitability that comes from that.

Unlike a particular airline "Group" I can think of............:ugh:

[Con Catenator]

As stated above, the Southwest model is interesting in that they actually try and look after their employees. It's probably one reason why they are still here.

Pornstar would be much more profitable if its' managers followed the Southwest concept - right now, no one gives a toss because of the way we are treated.

The latest flight dispatch exercise is yet another example of short sighted commercial department management action. :ugh:

[Ejector]

Word on the street is when the Asian staff are all trained and the bugs sorted out that QF are going to go down the same path.

[MONK]

Hey Metro Man

Whats wrong with Asian controllers?....have you flown in Hong Kong?....you reckon Australian controllers are better?

[waren9]

Word on the street is when the Asian staff are all trained and the bugs sorted out...


And I'll bet my left one that while the "offshoring" savings will figure in some middle managers bonus this year, the cost of all the :mad: ups it creates certainly won't!!

[Hoofharted]

Are you serious Monk? I have and they are.............period.

[Toruk Macto]

The manager will collect bonus for employing the consultant who works out how to screw the worker . The consultant has to take the blame if it goes wrong thats part of the deal. Managers cant lose,

[Metro man]

Asian controllers vary in standard depending on country. Hong Kong is excellent, best of the bunch by far.:ok:

At times Indonesia and the Philippines can leave a bit to be desired.:hmm:

[Capt Roo]

Having worked with dispatchers from Asia for years, I have to say they are good and capable people.

The days of individualized briefings from dispatch people who knew almost as much about the routes as the pilots, are long gone. Now the likes of LIDO make it a fairly automated process that can be done from anywhere.

Same with loadsheets, most airlines do them at their home base or wherever the IT network is based. Could be Bangalore these days. Makes no difference.

The perils of globalization - that's why brickies make the money they do - hard to lay bricks anywhere but locally. :rolleyes:

[Led Zeppelin]

CR,

The cr*p system that Jetstar uses is a far cry from LIDO (which is a great system).

You pay peanuts and you'll get the lowest common denominator, and that's exactly what we are dealing with now. :mad:

Outages and delays have already figured heavily.

[Tankengine]

DON'T get me started on LIDO, it's deficiencies and why it cost Lufthansa hundreds of thousands of dollars in compensation to QANTAS when it could not do simple things that Capricorn has done since 1992! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[fourgolds]

Gentleman , dont let your frustration with Jeetstar allow you to become xenophobic . If you are arrogant enough to think that only Ozzies can be good controllers despatchers / mechanics piots etc then you have grown up insulated in la la land.

Worried about taking Ozzies jobs offshore is an entirely different argument to saying the said people performing the jobs are incompetant.

[strobes_on]

Tankengine

I have obviously had a much better experience with Lido in another life.

Fourgolds, I read into the above comments that it's more to do with the quality of the information than who provides it.

There are good and bad pilots, dispatchers etc., etc., everywhere - it's human nature.

[Captain Dart]

I too have been working with Asian dispatchers for two decades, and with fifty percent of the flights, the dispatchers have been 'offshore' (the inbound sectors). Generally a very high standard and some of them excellent.

[The The]

A US research group identified the following in a study of outsourcing by US companies.

* Nearly 50% of outsourced projects fail outright, or fail to meet expectations
* 76% of companies said that vendor management effort and costs were much higher than expected
* 30% reported ongoing issues with outsourcer management processes (e.g., inadequate governance and conflict resolution procedures)
* 51% reported that outsourcer was not performing to expectations


Not to mention the detrimental effects on morale and engagement in remaining staff who have just seen a whole department sacked. When will it be their turn?

[breakfastburrito]

The The, the only flaw in your argument is that poor outcomes occur in the long term, not necessarily in the next reporting period for the purposes of bonus calculations. See the issue?

[peuce]

To put it into perspective, 75% of Jetstar's ports are in Asia.

In Asia, it's main LCC competitors are Air Asia & Tiger Airways.... who's majority of staff are located ... in Asia ...and paid ... in Asian.

It's difficult to fault Jetstar's move.

[Toruk Macto]

Paid in Asian ... Interesting

[puff]

Must be like the Euro

[peuce]

There I go ... being too subtle again.

Paid at Asian rates!

[blow.n.gasket]

BINGO!, Transmit business,offshore,downsize,capsize?
No wonder the Qantas Sale Act is a dirty word amongst Qantas/Jetstar Management. Is this why Team Bazza so unceremoniously dumped said case? Couldn't risk any impediment to the "business plan", could we!

Mav, what's the name of that truck driving school again?:uhoh:

[Capt Claret]

There are advantages though, I'm having dental work done in Bangkok at one third of what an Australian dentist would charge.

I met an Australian dentist at DeGrey river a month or so ago, we were both camping. He loves the fact that Aussies go to Bangkok for dental work, because according to him, he gets lots of business rectifying the work down the track.

Interesting that there are many critical posts on this board re QF outsourcing maintenance to Asia, and yet folk are happy to get cheap Asian dental work.

Flying to Bangkok or wherever, of course. :E

[Metro man]

You need to be very careful where you go for dental work in Asia. Whilst in Australia you can be assured of a minimum standard, excepting the odd one or two that slip through, same doesn't apply over here. Believe me you don't want a backstreet dentist in Bangkok, forged qualifications, poor infection control and counterfeit materials will make you regret it.

Basically you are looking for an established clinic, with modern facilities, in a good area of town. Dentists with foreign qualifications and a waiting room full of overseas patients, preferably on return visits complete the picture.

This link Bangkok Dental Cost Comparison - Hub of Bangkok Dental Clinic Thailand (http://www.dentalbangkok.com/) provides a guide to clinics catering to foreigners.

I had work done and was delighted at the cost being only a third of what it would have been in Australia. Then I found that site and discovered the place I went to was the most expensive one for the procedure I had done and I could have saved considerably more.:hmm: Still having been treated by a specialist with a Masters degree from the University of Queensland using modern equipment probably accounts for the extra.

It pays to do your research preferably talk to someone who has been to the clinic you are interested in. Usually no problem getting appointments so why not arrive a day or two early and check out your short list before committing.

I'm sure you can find examples of people who are in Bangkok to have problems sorted out that were caused by dentists in their home countries.

I'm very happy with the standard of work I've been getting over the last few years. Presently I'm having problems sorted out which were caused by a western dentist who should never have been allowed to hold a drill. My previous dentist in Australia commented on the poor quality of the work he had done. As a result I'm very fussy about who works on my teeth.:}

[DrPepz]

Didn't someone on this forum say that Jetstar Asia flight crew get an overall better package ex SIN than in Australia?

Anyway I doubt that wages are everything. Singaporeans are paid triple what Malaysians are paid and probably 10 times more what Indonesians are paid. If wages were the be all and end all, every company operating in Singapore would have moved out by now. I mean just across the causeway, (its barely 2km long) the rents are 1/3 that of SIngapore, the labour costs are a third too.....

However, Australia does have the among the highest wages in the world especially for semi to unskilled work (though the average grad salary in SIN after 5 years of work, post tax is probably better than Australia)

I think the SIN cabin crew base operate almost like casual crew. The base pay is S$1000 then they only earn when they fly. If they don't fly they don't earn. And seeing as SQ cabin crew can earn very good money, and they are the benchmark, I don't think Tiger and Jetstar can greatly undercut SQ's cabin crew wages by all that much.

[Muff Hunter]

The Lastest,

Jetstar are going to bring in pilots from NZ, SING and Vietnam to work for a new Jetstar Group company within OZ.

All future growth aircraft into OZ will be offered to anyone from these company's as well as existing jetstar eba pilots...but not on the eba

The winner to the race to the bottom is about to be announced.....

OF COURSE.........ITS JETSTAR!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

[metrosmoker]

And all future promotions will be 'MERIT BASED'.
As the JPC has admitted, there is nothing anyone can do about it. The company CAN and WILL do what ever it wants.

[Ndicho Moja]

"MERIT BASED" very progressive and forward thinking. Who would have thought that one can be promoted or advance because they are good at what they do. What is the world coming to:{

[Keg]

Yes, goodness knows it's such a simple thing to rank the 200+ F/Os eligible for promotion in terms of merit from 1-200. So what's the secret Ndicho Moja? How do airlines do this? After everyone has been an F/O for a couple of years and meets the 'experience' criteria, how do you differentiate 200 people all doing the same the same job when they all meet the objective assessments (CAO limits for license renewals).

[hongkongfooey]

The company CAN and WILL do what ever it wants

So can experienced Airbus drivers. Air China already paying good money to live in your home country, and some others offering attractive commuting packages, which considering things are still recovering is a good sign.
Just wait until things go gangbusters again, we will see who really is smart and who is a smartar5e.

[dodgybrothers]

yep, vote with your feet boys and girls. when demand exceeds supply only then things may change

[Bombay HF]

Keg... The third most "junior" FO in Jetsar is a fella i used to work with up here, 3 months ago he was a very experienced A330/340 Captain in EK. I beleive people on his course were flying light twins 3 months ago. In the case of Jetstar it is very easy to sort out numbers 1 to 200. I take your point in the case of long established carriers like Qantas.

[kiwi grey]

Actually it's not that hard, because you're realy only trying to sort out the top few for promotion, not order the whole list.

One way would be to score everyone every so often (check ride, sim session?) as "1" to "5" where "1" is "cleared for promotion" and "5" is "why are we still employing this liability?". Then you need some more detailed reporting on the "1"s. Don't care about the "2" through "4" guys n gals, but maybe any "5"s need some extra training.

My Invoice will be in the mail ;)

[porch monkey]

In theory good, however, most places won't award 1's or 5's. Simply because, and I quote, "No-one gets a 5, because no-one is perfect". Nobody gets a 1 either, because that would mean exactly what you said. Why are they still here? So, now you have to rank the vast majority, (4's, 3's at least) anyway, as Keg said.

[ROKAPE]

Kiwi Grey. Sshhh the grown ups are talking now.

[Normasars]

Any kind of grading except for "competent", "competent with training" and "not competent" is too subjective.

We are all very much aware of the disconnects between various "Checkies".

What one guy sees as a 4, another may see as a 2+ and so on. Not to mention if there is a personality clash between the "checkie" and the candidate. Too much room for the "boys' club" with gradings of 1-5 or A-E IMHO.
The competency based evaluation is by nature of the assessment non-biased. One is either good enough, good enough with training input ie a repeat, or not good enough.

[waren9]

You're all on the wrong track. Promotions will be awarded according to:
1. Who takes the least sick leave
2. Who accepts the most late changes from crewing.
3. Who comes in off leave or days off to work the most.
4. Who files the least number of OSCARs or fatigue or other sfatey reports.
5. Who doesnt bid for leave but accepts company assigned leave.
6. Who accepts leave without pay over the quiet months with no notice
7. You get the idea.

Company IT can easily capture stats and rank 200 F/O's on the above.:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Keg]

Bombay, thanks for making my point with a very selective example. So let's extrapolate that example a little. How do you rank that former Captain against the F/O who has been in the company for the previous three years, has ticked all the boxes and was previously a turbo prop Captain. What about an ex-military A330 driver? What about an ex EK F/O who has been in J* for a bunch of years? What about the F/O who has never held a command previously but has been in J* for five years and is (subjectively) considered to be an excellent command prospect? If you can rank all those it would be appreciated. :rolleyes:

[Mstr Caution]

Waren9

This ones a give away:

1b: Sick leave does not (coincidently) fall on the same date as the DOB registered thru staff travel for other family members.

[Bombay HF]

Keg....Very easy. 1. Ex EK FO (Most FOs in Jetstar probably don't have the minimum requirements to even apply to Emirates). 2. Ex Military A330 (Assuming FO, if not then swap 1. with 2.). 3. Jetstar FO with 5 years experience). 4. Jetstar FO ex Turbo Prop Capt ( light twin). Jetstar is in it's infancy and expanding rapidly and needs the flexibility to pick and choose. 5 years from now when all has settled down and most people joining are more closely matched in age and experience then promotion on "seniority" may be more practicable.

[404 Titan]

Bombay HF

Most FOs in Jetstar probably don't have the minimum requirements to even apply to Emirates
Doubtful. Most JQ DEFO applicants in the past have come from the regionals. Same for DJ. Since there hasn’t been much recruitment or promotion at either of these airlines since the GFC started, even if someone joined in 2007 with the bare minimum requirements they would probably exceed or be close to exceeding EK’s requirements by now.

Emirates DEFO requirements.

• A minimum of 4000 hours total flying time.
• A minimum of 2000 hours multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft.

or

• A minimum of 2500 hours total flying time on a modern commercial multi-engine, multi-crew jet aircraft.

and

• Must hold a valid ICAO ATPL.
• English language fluency (written and verbal comprehension); ICAO English level (4 or above).
• Experience commensurate with age.
• Type rated would be advantageous

Jetstar Australia DEFO requirements.

• Hold an Australian ATPL;
• Have passes in all Australian ATPL subjects or equivalent;
• Hold, or be eligible to hold, an Australian Class 1 Multi-Engine Command Instrument Rating;
• Current Class 1 Medical Certificate;
• ICAO Level 6 English Language Proficiency;
• Hold, or be eligible to hold, relevant Australian Permanent Residency status or an unrestricted right to work in Australia (or the equivalent for New Zealand if applying for Jetstar operations in New Zealand);
• Be eligible to hold and maintain, an Australian Aviation Security Identification Card (ASIC);
• A person will not be appointed unless Jetstar is satisfied that the person's employment with Jetstar will at all times be subject only to those industrial instruments which bind Jetstar at the time it considers the person's application.

And:

• Minimum 1500 hours total aeronautical experience of which 500 hours may be helicopter time;
• 500 hours Pilot in Command or First Officer on Multi Engine Aircraft; and
• 250 hours Pilot in Command of fixed-wing aircraft of which 150 may be ICUS.

Note

• Glass cockpit and multi-crew experience preferred
• In exceptional circumstances the Appointments and Promotions Committee may determine that a pilot is sufficiently qualified and experienced for recruitment with less than the qualifications and experience specified above.

[magicbox]

There is always one......

Jetstar to send 2 A330 to Singapore
Crew from entire J* family given opportunity to fly A330 on attractive terms & conditions :rolleyes:
Crew from entire J* family given opportunity to transfer to Australia and work NOT on J* Aust conditions but J* GROUP conditions:confused:

Great news for those at Jetstar.....
Now you will have:

1. A bypassed Seniority System for any future progression
2. Terms & conditions to fly A330 comparable to any other high flying third world airline in the region.
3. The opportunity to go, fly something cheaper than everyone else, only to come back to Aust and get paid even less than when you left:D
4. Opened the door to J* Asia, NZ, Vietnam pilots to operate in your own backyard cheaper than you so when it comes to EBA time another group can be used as bargaining chips against you.
5. The chance to stagnate in your current role unless you want point 3.
6. Set a new bar for everyone else in Australia that can be again used as bargaining power.
7. Probably fly the 787 or box kite (whichever is cheaper) at a bargain basement price from any destination you like as long as its not Australia.
8. Cadets which will more than likely take any available FO slots as they will still be cheaper than a new "GROUP J*" employee.
9. Zero chance at getting any sort of group cohesion as there will be 800+ pilots all on different contracts trying to stab each other in the back as management offer all manner of deals come J* Aust EBA time.

Comments? Anyone.............:(

[t_cas]

I know this will sound callous, but the reality is that with the safety record that has been maintained throughout Australia, we have essentially become a comfortably regulated, risk managed group, that has become so safe people are falling over themselves trying to make money out of that hard earned fact.

I have one term for this entire display of what essentially is poor airmanship, LATENT FAILURE.

Accountants have no place in this industry apart from the accounts department. Please let us know what you think about the numbers, but let a manager of Airline operations make the the decisions on the most sensible and SAFE way forward.

The constant undermining that is taking place will end in a spectacularly public display of denial that would be at home on prime slot of big brother.

I think that although I long for the days of old, that there is a place for that old adage of bringing romance back to air travel. It is not an inherently safe place to be in an aircraft at 41000 feet travelling at mach .85!

[The The]

Accountants have no place in this industry apart from the accounts department. Please let us know what you think about the numbers, but let a manager of Airline operations make the the decisions on the most sensible and SAFE way forward.



Ummm. Didn't somebody mention it is a former management pilot who is setting up this new crewing venture?

[Private Patjarr]

magicbox

That sums it up perfectly. Surely all the FOs are watching their career paths come to an abrupt holt.

If any Jetstar pilot isn't in a union yet then join up IMMEDIATELY.

You are going to need it very shortly.

[Van Gough]

If any Jetstar pilot isn't in a union yet then join up IMMEDIATELY.


TWU.

Good enough for bus drivers. You don't see bus drivers paying for jobs and getting ****e pay....:ok:

[magicbox]

VAN Gough has a good point. If all pilots joined the TWU maybe pilots Australia wide wouldn't be in the mess we're in now and the bigger mess we'll all be in with the constant deterioration of conditions.

AFAP & AIPA are constantly accused of hidden agendas & protecting their self interest. Maybe it's time to try a different tact?

What's left to lose???

Aren't we all perceived as just "bus drivers" anyway....:yuk:
At least real bus drivers stick together.

[max1]

Normasars

Reference the point about about the Check and Training.
The best way to get a handle on the 'subjective' use of evaluating a persons true rating is to collate the checkies score.
To do this all you have to do is to keep a record of what each checkie is giving. If checkie A,B, and C are giving score X to an individual/s, and checkie D is giving Y, it may be that checkie D has an agenda that is not in keeping with how the company wants it's evaluations done in an 'objective' sense. The problem may be with the checkie not the individual.
I have been told by a long time Qantas C&T that this is what they do.
If one believes the whole C&T training area is 'compromised' maybe it's time to run.

[Traffic]

By the same logic it is also time to outsource the entire military and the political function as well.

The Govt of the day can take the kudos when it all goes well and deny culpability when it goes pear-shaped.

No more problems with refugee boats because we will have lost our sovereignty by then.

Seriously, where will this mindless outsourcing stop.

Everytime I get a call from an outsourced call-center, I order the vindaloo...which is where the country is heading I am afraid:ugh:

[A. Le Rhone]

The anti-offshoring stance worked very well for the QF Engineers.

Why don't you J* guys start ramping-up a publicity campaign along the same lines?