I realize businesses have to cut costs, but...

[INNflight]

Good afternoon everyone,

Excuse the slight rant, but I really felt like getting this off my chest after looking through this month's World Aircraft Sales Magazine.

Some of you know, I currently live off doing photo shoots and selling images to business aviation clientele, may these be brokers, operators or owners.

I realize keeping unnecessary costs down is important for anyone during these days, but when I see a good 30 percent of all photographs on avbuyer, controller and in the various magazines have just been downloaded off the internet and are used without photographers' permissions, I don't only loose out on a good chunk of income, but it's also downright illegal.

It seems that nearly every broker website, sales website or even websites of operators I come across contain one or muliple photographs (often mine!!) which are used without permission.

May be a sad sign of the times really, but stuff on the internet is not actually free (doh, I know :suspect:), and spending a couple of hundreds to pay for a high-quality photograph is not only the right thing to do, but also peanuts when you sell a 20 million Euro jet... :mad:

phew...that helped...cheers!

[LGW Vulture]

I´m happy to inform you that my site carries all of my own photographs and not one is taken from illegal sources - add to that all of the photos I have of aircraft for sale are also all of my own.

Now, when I see photographers taking (and publishing) pictures of my Client´s aircraft without their knowledge and consent then, that´s another thing eh? Food for thought ....... it is a two way thing so not all you photographers are free of blame either!

Rant over! :ugh:

[INNflight]

Dear LGW V,

I appreciate your reply and wanted to add I'm aware that not everyone does this, but the bad ones always give the good ones a bit of a bad name, you know that.

On the second point, I understand your concern and am a pilot myself, so don't think I am just a photographer walking in here making a lot of noise without knowing both sides.

I don't hang out at the fences of the airports for hours every day like spotters with bino's and cameras, but normally get asked to specifically shoot this or that.

Regarding others not having the permission of the aircraft owner to take photos... if a photographer is on public land (i.e. not on the ramp of a FBO), he is free to take photos without permission.

Think of you driving down Times Square with a Ferrari. Nobody needs permission from you to take a photo of your car there. Just saying.

Again I appreciate your input.

[FLEXJET]

Florian, it may be good for you at the end as one operator may find it more convenient to hire you as FO than going to court! ;)

Good luck!

[hawker750]

INNflight

There are two sides to the coin. We downloaded an image from the internet for use in our web site. We got an angry call from the photograher demanding a fee for using it.
Fair enough maybe until we pointed out that the image was of an aircraft we actually owned. We had no record of the photographer asking our permission to photograph it.
How many times do you send a fee to the aircraft owner for the right to photo it?

[FLEXJET]

hawker750,

I am not a lawyer but I don't see why, as long as the photographer takes a picture from a public area, you could legally prevent him to take a picture of your property or claim a fee.

On the other end, photographer can be a job.

[INNflight]

flexjet,

if only everyone would think along those lines. feel free to download something off my website, I'll send you my CV via PM :E

hawker750,

thanks for the reply, as said above I value any input.

I don't think brokers / operators etc. always "download" photographs being aware that it's illegal, so I'm also trying to clear things up for both sides.

As mentioned above, you can not legally hinder a photographer to take a photo of your jet, as long as he/she is on public land. Therefore a photographer needs no permission.

I have mentioned the Times Square / car analogy above. Think of all the photos with yellow cabs. They are on public streets, therefore anyone can take a photo of them without seeking permission.

Of course any photographer has to obey to your rules if he / she is on the ramp of a FBO, in a privately owned airport building or in your hangar.

---

Photographers (the few doing shoots in bizav) charge very reasonable fees for a high-quality product, that imho definitely helps to sell a jet.

I'm not sure how much commission a broker gets when selling a G-V or similar, but paying money to obtain a usage license for an image that's already been taken, which may cost a few hundred, is imho really not much of a deep cut into the costs. :)

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

hawker750 what sort of kookoo world are you living on! :ugh:

If a photographer is on public land they do not need permission to photograph anything. They can photograph your plane, your arse, your face or your elbow without your permission.

[hawker750]

Gussett
The fact that the airplane picture had my hangar in the background and was on my ramp may have something to do with it, or am I really in cuckoo land?

[Spunky Monkey]

If you go cluck, then yes you are a cuckoo.
It is perfectly legal to take photos in the UK. And it is dubious if a by-law will stand. Hence why we have the furor when parents try to take a photo of their kids at the swimming baths. They are legally entitled to. Even if the council Stasi throw in the human rights of the child.

I would see it as a positive that your hanger is in the photo. Class it as I would, free advertising.
The Dutch used it very well in the world cup, to sell a beer.

(Notice how I didn't use the beers name? For fear of falling foul of the moderators wrath).

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

hawker it can have your arse for all to see at the cockpit window and you will still not have rights to its ownership.

Also in Scotland there is a 2005 Land Reform Act which allows anyone access to (basically) any land for (basically) any purpose. As long as this is not an airfield then again mr snappy with his Nikon camera can be there.

Exemptions of land which one has right of access to are, roughly, as follows:

Houses and gardens, and non-residential buildings and associated land
Land in which crops have been sown or are growing (although please note that the headrigs, endrigs and other margins of fields where crops are growing are not defined as crops, whether sown or unsown, and are therefore within access rights).
Land next to a school and used by the school
Sports or playing fields when these are in use and where the exercise of access rights would interfere with such use
Land developed and in use for recreation and where the exercise of access rights would interfere with such use
Golf courses (but you can cross a golf course provided you don't interfere with any games of golf)
Places like airfields, railways, telecommunication sites, military bases and installations, working quarries and construction sites, and
Visitor attractions or other places which charge for entry.

Oh I do love Caledonia :)

[INNflight]

Hawker 750 has a valid point, he can restrict anyone from taking photos when that someone is on HIS ramp or in HIS hangar.

Still don't own the right to use it obviously. But I think we've laid that out correctly by now.

Lets not get too heated up about it here. The mere fact that 700+ people read about it and hopefully consider doing the right thing the next time they need advertising material helps a lot already.

[Phil Brockwell]

There are dozens of shots of every aircraft on the internet taken by fence monkeys, If you email them asking if it's ok to use their shots, 90% say yes, and send you hi-res copies.

If you want something specific then hire a photographer (and own the images as part of the agreement).

[411A]

If you want something specific then hire a photographer (and own the images as part of the agreement).

Well said.
We use photos of our own aircraft in advertising, photos taken by our guy,who is paid for the privilege.
In reality, the only responsible way.

[hawker750]

Gussett, you really do fail to get the point. I was not complaining about anyone photographing my plane i was complaining about that person trying to charge me for it. I am perfectly capable of filming it my self.

You seem to have an extraordinary interest in my arse. Is it just my arse or will any bloke's do?
I can send you a picture of it if you like for free.

[Spunky Monkey]

ah ha ha ha classic!

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Sir Gussett is a big enough arse he needs no more. :)

hawker

There are two sides to the coin. We downloaded an image from the internet for use in our web site. We got an angry call from the photograher demanding a fee for using it.
Fair enough maybe until we pointed out that the image was of an aircraft we actually owned. We had no record of the photographer asking our permission to photograph it.
How many times do you send a fee to the aircraft owner for the right to photo it?

You have no right to take the photograph. If you are capable of photographing it yourself (your jet, not arse) then why don't you do so in future, instead of stealing from the internet?

Surely a jet owner with his own hangar like you could afford a digital camera. :) Or, better still, pay out a small fee for using another photographers.

[Cap Loko]

If someone can't/doesn't want to fork out a few hundred for a good photograph, then a service like iStock is a good alternative. The images are of good quality and the photographer will be paid too.

[PicMas]

Get a camera with a self-timer and you should be capable of photographing your arse also:}

"The moon is the limit"

[INNflight]

Not sure that technique would help selling your jet PicMas :E

[Hell Man]

INNflight: Seeing as you started this row would you mind posting an example of one of your high quality products;

Photographers (the few doing shoots in bizav) charge very reasonable fees for a high-quality product ..

Just so we could see exactly what level of quality we are actually talking about.

[GlueBall]

INNflight . . .a professional photographer? Are you not aware of the technology which enables you to post on line or otherwise display your high quality photos with a personal watermark or transparent line(s) embedded over the subject?

For example, photo contributors at "airliners.net" have an option to embed the website's watermark above, on, or below the subject to protect their copyrighted work from being copied or otherwise used without permission.

[INNflight]

GlueBall,

I am well aware of watermarking and do use it extensively, since even low-res photos are not safe online.

Still sometimes they get cropped out or photoshopped out, and I have no intentions of completely ruining viewing pleasure for the good people out there by slapping the watermark straight across the main motive of an image.

Hell Man & others,
Please have a look at my profile and you'll find my website, I don't think the PPRuNe towers appreciate it me posting a link here.

One photograph some may recognize.
http://www.floriantrojer.com/gallery/bilder/vistamain.jpg

[Hell Man]

Okay - Its actually not bad INNflight. Thought you may have been Bullshi**ing about the quality. Some people call themselves photographers when actually they are just Sunday Snappers!

Don't you think this image would look good if you adjusted to contrast to make the sky more blue and the red line more red - or is the feel of this photo to keep it in its current 'soft' tone?

My suggestion, for what its worth, is that when you know who's aircraft you are shooting, you email them some watermarked samples making the owners aware of their availability because I'm sure that most of the time people who rip images off the net are doing so for conveniece. If they know that in their inbox is a message from a photographer with Grade A photos of their bird it makes it just that much easier for them.

You can then mail them back the unwatermarked images for a small fee.

FFT. (Food for Thought)

[INNflight]

Hell Man,

Thanks for the input. Not much need to e-mail owners / operators with images as I am normally assigned to shoot them anyway as in the case of this Global.

Selling stock images is another whole different part, but income with that is way too unpredictable. Still don't mind it of course.

What still works best for me is to meet fellow pilots / people working for companies out on the ramp - gives the whole thing a personal touch, quite the opposite of e-mails.
You have a good weekend!