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Two's in
12th Jun 2010, 13:31
Spirit pilots went on strike at 5am Saturday morning cacelling all Spirit flights. This follows a breakdown in 3 years of salary negotiations.

Spirit Airlines pilots declare strike and walk out on negotiations - Broward Breaking News - MiamiHerald.com (http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/06/12/1676657/spirit-airlines-pilots-declare.html)

No work is to be done for Spirit Airlines," said Paul Hopkins, strike chairman for Spirit's unit of the ALPA, in a strike hotline voicemail to pilots. Instructing pilots to go home, Hopkins added, "We will hold the line. We will prevail." A spokeswoman for Spirit Airlines was unable to be reached for comment.

Picketing is expected to commence daily at Fort Lauderdale airport at between 11 a.m. and 1 p.m. The Spirit walk-out is the first by pilots at a commercial U.S. carrier since 2001 and it's the first strike since Northwest Airlines mechanics walked out in 2005.

protectthehornet
12th Jun 2010, 13:46
good luck to the pilots.

if spirit can afford to replace their DC9's and MD80s with 'buses, they can afford to pay their pilots more.

Captain Turbo
12th Jun 2010, 19:56
Any update on negotiations???

remoak
13th Jun 2010, 01:17
if spirit can afford to replace their DC9's and MD80s with 'buses, they can afford to pay their pilots more.

That is probably the reason why they CAN'T afford to pay them more...

Anyway, good luck lads and ladesses... :ok:

TQ
13th Jun 2010, 04:24
Company made over 100 million last year with 28 airplanes.
There are no negotiation meetings planned at this time.
We have excellent support from all pilots at other airlines, FA, gate agents, air traffic controllers. To all : "THANK YOU".

STAY UNITED.

cactusbusdrvr
13th Jun 2010, 05:45
Good luck to you guys. I hope to get a chance to walk your line next week when I am in DTW.

411A
13th Jun 2010, 06:39
For the ALPA pilots at Spirit, the old saying should apply, and PT Barnum said it best....'There is a sucker born every minute.'

PS,
Forgot to mention...everything at Spirit is leased, even the office furniture, so....it would be easy enough to fold the airline and take the past loss-carry-forward, and smile all the way to the bank for the private investors.
ALPO has never been very smart with their 'strike' actions...true to form, now.

jimmygill
13th Jun 2010, 09:14
it would be easy enough to fold the airline and take the past loss-carry-forward, and smile all the way to the bank for the private investors.

If its easy, then thats how it should be. If there is not a deal then parties walk back home.

DownIn3Green
13th Jun 2010, 19:14
First off...I wholeheartedly agree with 411...

Second off...the fact that this thread has been posted here for so long indicates to me that there is not a lot of sympathy for these pilots among the PPrune...only 7 posts so far...

Thirdly...If all of the "support" is out there for your cause, according to the news reports, Spirit is rebooking their customers on other (possibly ALPO?) airlines...Isn't that flying "struck" work??? I guess that means better "you than I", because I've still got a job...

Fourth...Haven't the Spirit pilots learned anything from the CAL 83 and EAL 89 ALPO strikes?...

Shut your Airline down, put most of your friends and colleagues out of work, and support your ALPO brothers and sisters by giving them more business and ergo job security...

Check out the ads here on the Prune...everyone is looking for a job...NOT THROWING ONE AWAY...

PA38-Pilot
13th Jun 2010, 19:41
Good luck to all.

mic310
13th Jun 2010, 19:43
good to see the boys at spirit have some balls:ok:

AKAAB
13th Jun 2010, 21:07
Second off...the fact that this thread has been posted here for so long indicates to me that there is not a lot of sympathy for these pilots among the PPRuNe...only 7 posts so far...

What's your point, really? We don't see a lot of posts about European job actions on the US-centric boards, either. You're point is lost. Check out flightinfo.com or airlinepilotcentral.com if you want to see overwhelming support for the Spirit pilots. And, by the way, a lot of that support is coming from non-ALPA pilots.



Thirdly...If all of the "support" is out there for your cause, according to the news reports, Spirit is rebooking their customers on other (possibly ALPO?) airlines...Isn't that flying "struck" work??? I guess that means better "you than I", because I've still got a job...

If the revenue goes to the airline carrying the customers and not to Spirit, then it's not considered flying struck work. Flying flights under Spirit callsigns/flight numbers that puts money in Spirit's coffers would be flying struck work.


Fourth...Haven't the Spirit pilots learned anything from the CAL 83 and EAL 89 ALPO strikes?...

Strategically, they have learned a lot. First, there is no Texas Air or Continental to siphon off resources to in this case. In a war, you don't refuse to go into a skirmish because a previous skirmish ended badly. You study previous battles, analyze them, and learn what worked and what didn't. EAL and CAL ended poorly, but the lessons to be learned include not fearing management's threats, not falling or sham contract offers, and not being afraid to call management on their lies and deceit.

Also, times have changed and we're in the information age. That, in and of itself, is a huge difference between then and now.



Shut your Airline down, put most of your friends and colleagues out of work, and support your ALPO brothers and sisters by giving them more business and ergo job security...


This should have never happened, but Spirit management has chosen to not negotiate in good faith and has repeatedly stalled talks for years. At some point, you have to look into the abyss and stand your ground. They don't want to shut down the company - no striking pilot group does. What they want is equitable pay and compensation for the work they do. They aren't asking for pie-in-the-sky pay, just industry average. They are so far below that now and it's embarrassing to the entire profession.


Stand strong, Spirit pilots. You deserve our respect.

PS - I turned down three calls to come for an interview with EAL during the strike.

privateer01
13th Jun 2010, 23:04
Good luck and best wishes to the Spirit Pilots.

(Yeah I have friends there)

captjns
13th Jun 2010, 23:12
Good luck to the guys and gals at Spirit:D:ok:. Another group who has the balls to stand up to management and request to be treated with the respect they deserve:ok:.

If the airline tanks then so be it... at least the spirit pilot group did not sell their souls to the devils as others in the past have. I hope they are looking at the job boards. As Bus drivers are needed in Asia.

Big Pistons Forever
14th Jun 2010, 01:08
You do not get what you deserve you get what you negotiate. If the other side will not negotiate then you do not have alot of options. The Spirit Guys/Gals are at the go big or go home point. I wish them luck.

The bottom line is good pilot compensation is no barrier to profitability or long term sucess. SouthWest has the highest narrow body pilot pay structure of any US airline and is a consistantly profitable airline. The problem is not pilot pay structure it's incompetant mangement with United's Glen T being the poster child for the failure of the MBA mindless culture of short term cost cutting over long term value creation.....

Sqwak7700
14th Jun 2010, 01:09
Good luck guys and girls, you have the support of may pilots in this day and age of corporate greed.

I hope you prevail and bring a little balance back to the employee/employer relationship. It is good to see someone pushing for the top instead of racing to the bottom.

I can't see why any airline pilot would disagree with your chosen course of action so anybody who posts otherwise on this thread is not really a pilot. Just ignore them as spammers and wannabes that have nothing better to do.

:D

dannyalliga
14th Jun 2010, 02:05
Spirit Pilots,

we look at you with respect and wish you success!

A European pilot.

Junkflyer
14th Jun 2010, 04:23
APC shows fo first year pay about $3100/mo. and tops @ 15 year capt. about$ 11,000/mo. flying A-321 currently. Not sure what the recent or future raises are.

protectthehornet
14th Jun 2010, 06:28
I don't think that spirit will shut down. why?

well, the company is offering a hundred dollar credit on future flights for the inconvenienced passengers, plus full refund credit on cancelled flights.

while this may never be used, there might be a slight chance of legitimate concern over long term passenger happiness.

Shaman
14th Jun 2010, 08:25
Good luck, chaps - taking industrial action takes courage.

As a management pilot once said, "if the pilots stick together we are going to lose".

autoflight
14th Jun 2010, 09:56
I cannot understand why we walk out. Work to rules is highly effective and can be continued indefinitely. Even finish up getting paid more due turbulence penetration speed for every bad forecast. Australian 1989 domestic pilots also couldn't accept these simple truths.

AFOS
14th Jun 2010, 11:38
I am sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone that goes on strike, certainly not under the current economical climate.
BA and Spirit have jobs, they should be grateful, very grateful in an industry ravaged by falling passengers, airlines going bust and of those airlines that are left, if they don't have a good summer season, then I can see either more people being made redundant and/or more airlines going to the wall.
As unpaletable as it may be any and all industries have had to make big and drastic changes in order to keep business alive. Run with it and then when times are more affluent, then I beleive it is more plausible to approach the boss and state a case and then consider strike action, but not now.
I have been out of work for very close to a year and cannot find anything.

If anyone at BA or Spirit want to swap positions, sit on a pitence of JSA or the salary they currently earn, then just let me know.
AFOS

Bubi352
14th Jun 2010, 13:06
Let me say this, as a Spirit pilot, this is exactly what management wants you to think! They want to replace us with pilots like you. They want to keep hiring pilots like you and lower the bar at the same time. And all this while the company makes millions of profit! Don't you have respect for yourself? To have no airplane movement, no scabs, no one flying for them is a statement that the pilots are fed up with this type of management. We will win and we will set a precedent for all others that we can regain some dignity in this industry. Let the Spirit pilots be feared among management ranks!

Squawk7777
14th Jun 2010, 13:43
I am sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone that goes on strike, certainly not under the current economical climate.

That all depends how and when you look at it. The prime example in the US is the infamous "Mesa sucks" slogan that you still hear across the airwaves. Do a bit of research.

Airline business in the US usually goes like this: After listening to how bad the financial situation is at airline XYZ, the pilot group votes on cutbacks and management then takes that money and uses it on their bonuses in form of cash, cars and other toys. If I am not mistaken there is a significant financial difference in bonuses and salaries paid to upper management between the US and Europe. The new(-ish) corporate attitude in the US really scares me because many CEOs/upper management are just out there to rape the company.

The railroad labor act is another big hurdle for pilots to be legally allowed to strike. This process is much lengthier than in Europe (I admit I do not know a bit about labo[u]r laws in the UK) and certain airlines wanting to strike cannot do so right away but have to wait for years. One prime example is a privately owned regional airline in STL. Management has been unscrupulous as expected but has also gotten away with things that would be deemed impossible at the legacy carriers, however; a legal strike is still months away.

A word people from Europe should become familiar with is the term scab. If one decides to cross a picket line, your name will be out there until you retire. There are already two Spirit pilots' names published on the net who decided to fly instead of joining their colleagues picketing. :eek:

Last but not least I think the major failure lies with ALPO. Regional airlines are not in their interest (except collecting your dues and sending you propaganda material once a month), and the upper union people bearing a frightening similarity with management (gimme your money) . :ugh:

captkirk3000
14th Jun 2010, 14:04
I completely agree!
I fly for a regional carrier and we are under the same union (Teamsters). Due to my hectic schedule, I havent had the chance to walk the picket line with the Spirit pilots.
I give them 100% support during there strike and i wish them all the best.

alouette3
14th Jun 2010, 14:25
AFOS,
I have no dog in this fight ,but I must respond to your post.I am in a unionized company and I can tell you, at least in the US,what you suggest is a pipe dream.
Got to agree with Squawk.The past history is witness to the fact that many pilot unions, after giving serious concessions for hard times,never see the benefit of good times later.The management continues to increase their bonuses and the pilots are left in the cold with a contract that they agreed to in good faith to see the company through difficult days.Moreover, the Railway Labor Act,passed to maintain essential services to sustain the economy back in the early 20th century( hence 'Railroad') is an albatross on the shoulders of all those who work in aviation.It takes too long to negotiate, too long for mediation and too long for work action. And even then, the President can step in and impose binding arbitration if he feels that the country will be adversely affected.So all in all, it is grim to belong to a union under the current corporate climate in the US.Bad economy or not. Sometimes it is just flat wrong to stand on the sidelines and submit to the fear tactics by corporate or government.
Good Luck Spirit guys and gals.Hope you win through.
Alt3.

Wino
14th Jun 2010, 16:15
autoflight.

Work to rule doesn't work once you are released. At that point managment is also free to impose changes, and the first change they impose is that once someone follows a rule that management finds inconvienient, they terminate that employee...

So rather than go out as one strong group and actually try and accomplish something, managment gets to clean house without repercussion.

Furthermore, by "working to rule" and having safety campaigns, and what not you are making safety a bargaining item, which it is most certainly not. How do you turn on and off safety?

Strikes have a time and a place.

And you must remember WHO is being struck. Its not the passengers. They are free to fly other airlines, and the strikers wish them the best, and apologize for their troubles. IT is Spirt that the pilots are at war with, and the goal of a strike is to deny Spirit their revenue stream, untill they feel like sharing a little more of it when it is turned back on.

Therefore, the pax themselves are NOT struck work. HOWEVER, moving those passengers for SPIRIT airlines, be it by spirit plane, chartered aircraft, or CODESHARE, is struck work. Violate that at your own peril.

Cheers
Wino

AFOS
14th Jun 2010, 16:19
I appreciate and understand what you all say and am grateful for your polite and calm responses. I assure you my thread is/was not designed to stir things up. I am a very frustrated person looking for work. The labour laws in this country are, am currently unemployed and receive, not earn, receive 60 per week after years of earning 30K.
The people at the top are in charge. If you disagree with their policy either resign and join another company or if you want to earn what the Chairman is on and receive the same bonuses, company cars and perks, form you own airline.
The situation regarding the BA strike is it is pouring money in to the other airlines that BA have to sub-charter in to carry on the work.
If I read this original thread properly, did Spirit not spend its millions on upgrading aircraft from the old DC9 / MD80 to a fleet of modern Airbus?
Surely purchasing new, efficient, economical, earth friendly equipment preserving the company's longterm survivability is more important? I was made redundant because the boss at our airline would not invest in modern equipment, he expected us to continue to fly in Boeing 737-200's around Europe. No brainer really.
AFOS

Wino
14th Jun 2010, 16:44
The people at the top are in charge. If you disagree with their policy either resign

But the Pilots of SPIRIT have just done that democratically and as a group. If management don't like it, they can try and replace them, as a group. Good luck finding qualified pilots and getting them trained in time.

It is actions by pilots over the last 85 years or so, that have made this job something for you to aspire to, and enjoy when you reach it. They should be commended, not denigrated, because is this age of pattern bargaining, when the bar goes up or down somewhere, it has an effect on ALL pilots. Its that much harder for any other airline to claim their pilots are overpaid, if Spirit gets a raise, and also seeing the expense of a strike might make management bargain in better faith.

Cheers
Wino

AFOS
14th Jun 2010, 17:31
To get pilots trained in time ? How long will you be on strike for? There are plenty of DC9 / MD80 qualified pilots out their, whether they can get work permits for the USA or not I don't know but if you intend to go on strike for months then I can see the company going to the wall and then you are all out of work.
You then have the prospect of your next employer looking at your CV and seeing ex Spirit Airlines pilots who have the potencity to cause trouble and go on strike because he/she do not like something. I can imagine any prospective employer would steer away from such.
Similar to pilots, or work employees who take their employers to court for industrial matters. Win or loose, the employee is marked as a potential trouble maker.
In the case of BA a lot of Cabin Crew have now returned to work because they need the money, need a job, still have mortgages and bills to pay and wont be able to if they are out of work.
A little now is better than nothing at all.
AFOS

Sqwak7700
14th Jun 2010, 17:54
The people at the top are in charge. If you disagree with their policy either resign and join another company...

That shows a complete lack of understanding how airlines work. 99.9% of airlines out there have a seniority system. Without it, airlines would have to compensate pilots what they are worth, and they don't like that! Seniority is what allows them to hire guys at poverty wages and what locks them down and prevents them from jumping left and right.

... or if you want to earn what the Chairman is on and receive the same bonuses, company cars and perks, form you own airline.

Again, another huge misconception. You honestly think that the airline CEOs started their own airlines? With the exception of a few like Herb Keleher who founded SWA, most are professional managers that did squat for that airline. They are merely looking after their interest and taking from the low payed employees to benefit them and their buddies.

Remember when AA asked their employees for concessions a few years back? That douche-bag Don Carty was asking 22 USD / hour flight attendants to take a pay-cut "for the company". The day after they reluctantly agreed, he secured 50 million USD in bonuses for himself and the top managers at AA. That is the management you deal with today. And remember that a company gets the union that it deserves. If Spirit's pilot action seems harsh, there is probably good reason for it and they have my full support.

... did Spirit not spend its millions on upgrading aircraft from the old DC9 / MD80 to a fleet of modern Airbus? Surely purchasing new, efficient, economical, earth friendly equipment preserving the company's longterm survivability is more important? I was made redundant because the boss at our airline would not invest in modern equipment, he expected us to continue to fly in Boeing 737-200's around Europe. No brainer really.

Irrelevant. You don't know how Spirit might pay for this equipment and you don't know what deal they struck with Airbus. Besides, the employees are not responsible for subsidizing the company expenditures unless they are considered equal shareholders. You think management wants that? That would mean full disclosure and more equal re-distribution of the profits, so they would kiss those exuberant pay packages goodbye. Fat chance of that happening.

So please stop giving sympathy where it doesn't belong. These guys are fighting to improve your future career. Instead of shooting them down you should be thanking them for fighting to make Spirit a place where you might want to work some day.

You got a lot to learn, son. :ugh:

Sqwak7700
14th Jun 2010, 18:02
You then have the prospect of your next employer looking at your CV and seeing ex Spirit Airlines pilots who have the potencity to cause trouble and go on strike because he/she do not like something. I can imagine any prospective employer would steer away from such.
Similar to pilots, or work employees who take their employers to court for industrial matters. Win or loose, the employee is marked as a potential trouble maker.

Let me guess, you must be another pay-for-training wonder. You are the reason why pilots with backbone and integrity have to fight so hard to achieve decent compensation. Your salary now seems spot on to me, you should stick with whatever it is you are currently doing because it is just about right for you. :ok:

And I believe Spirit hasn't flown DC9/MD80 for a long time. Remember your post above, you even mentioned their shiny new Airbi. :rolleyes:

Squawk7777
14th Jun 2010, 18:04
The people at the top are in charge. If you disagree with their policy either resign

But the Pilots of SPIRIT have just done that democratically and as a group. If management don't like it, they can try and replace them, as a group. Good luck finding qualified pilots and getting them trained in time.


The final decision for strike action actually lies with the President of the United States. Every strike in the transportation sector has to be approved. Democrats are more likely to support unions than Republicans, although (in)famous President Clinton did not support APA (American Airlines Pilots' Union) to strike. Not sure if it had to do with APA as opposed to ALPO.

The "Lucky to have a job" argument doesn't fly anymore. Look up the nasty history on the regional level like Freedom Air or GoJet.

The important thing I learned when I worked as a corporate pilot is that a good company has no need for a union, however; in most cases both deserve each other.

johns7022
14th Jun 2010, 18:44
Having worked in corporate it's not a shock that the only real power you have as an employee is the ability to walk..

So good for you guys for putting managements feet to the fire...

And yes, if they can buy shiny new planes, they can bump some salaries...

p51guy
14th Jun 2010, 19:03
Spirit ALPA pilots will win this war. Spirit management has used the RLA to keep pilots pay in the basement compared to other low cost carriers for years. They have delayed bargaining with these pilots to the point they are all fed up with the company.

They can't replace them because a totally qualified Airbus pilot would require a month to complete a security check before starting training. They can't afford to wait that long unless somebody bankrolls them. They had a 98% strike vote. ALPA was amazed. You can't treat your pilots like that for years and not get their wrath when their chance comes to act. The sooner Spirit management understands this the sooner the mega losses per day every day will stop.

I'm behind them all the way.

Hotel Charlie
14th Jun 2010, 19:37
7700 You are spot on dude!!

Big thanks and good luck to the Spirit guy's :ok:

p51guy
14th Jun 2010, 20:05
Obama is not going to touch this strike like Clinton did with us. American is a big player in air transportation in the US. Spirit isn't. Stopping this strike with such a small airline would lose his union support for reelection.
What can a union do if they can't strike?

ALPA will succeed with this strike and all of the other airline managements are worried. They might throw some money at Spirit to fend off the thousands of angry pilots at all the other airlines being stonewalled by the Railway Labor Act.

AFOS
14th Jun 2010, 22:48
Sqwak 7700 for your benefit, I have been involved with aviation all my life. Admittedly not in the USA.
I am probably right in thinking prior to you joining Spirit you attended an interview, psychometric testing and probably a simulator test before being offered a job and signing the all important contract.
If you did sign on the dotted line you agreed certain conditions. Now you don't like those conditions and are expecting to hold the company to ransom, jeopardise yours and other employees, cabin crew, flight ops, other ground staff jobs because you don't like the rules made up by your superiors.
If you are a Captain then you would expect both your crew and passengers to comply with your wishes, instructions etc, no more or less than the Chairman of Spirit who you are answerable too.
If you now do not like his rules and the economic changes he/she sees fit to make to safe guard his/her airline and your job, then why don't you do the honourable thing and resign and find a job that best suits your requirements.
I am not a pay for training wonder, nor am I your son and thank you for your comment that I should stick to what I am doing as you think it is about right. I am only giving my thoughts and points like other forum users are.
Here in England over centuries the unions have tried to impose their will on Government, bosses and employers, now many of those companies don't exist and the infamous threats of "we will never give in", "we are all united", "we shall fight to the bitter end" etc, never worked and never will.
A lot of the BA cabin crew are seeing reality now and slowly going back to work.
I wish you well who ever you end up flying with.
AFOS

dannyalliga
14th Jun 2010, 23:48
AFOS,

If you now do not like his rules and the economic changes he/she sees fit to make to safe guard his/her airline and your job, then why don't you do the honourable thing and resign and find a job that best suits your requirements.

If you did sign on the dotted line you agreed certain conditions. Now you don't like those conditions and are expecting to hold the company to ransom, jeopardise yours and other employees, cabin crew, flight ops, other ground staff jobs because you don't like the rules made up by your superiors.

I was made redundant because the boss at our airline would not invest in modern equipment, he expected us to continue to fly in Boeing 737-200's around Europe. No brainer really.



The above statements of yours don't really make much sense.
Why did you sign that dotted line if you knew your boss was going to run the show the to your disliking?
Why didn't you resign and looked for a job that better suited you if you were in obvious disagreement with your boss about the use of the B737-200?
Why did you wait until they made you redundant?
What did you and your former colleagues do in order to let your boss know he was probably taking the wrong decisions?


I see why things in England are going down the drain now......

Ka D'argo
15th Jun 2010, 00:38
It's nice to see on the international news channels here at the layover that the general consensus is for the Spirit pilots. We are all brother aviators in this big world and standing up for our profession is the right thing to do. Cheers!

protectthehornet
15th Jun 2010, 01:05
Generally, as long as it doesn't involve women, or investments, a Pilot can be counted on to do the right thing.

One, was taking cuts to get pilots of the USA through the post 9-11 downturn in the indsutry.

But, as surely as you can count on a pilot to do the right thing, you can count on management to abuse this...and take huge bonuses.

cmrflyer
15th Jun 2010, 05:27
AFOS you are clueless.

I walked the picket line for 89 days in 2001, best 89 days I had in the ten years I worked there! We walked away the highest paid pilots in the US regional airline business.

I take my hat off to the the Spirit guys, you're more than welcome to ride my jumpseat anytime.

AFOS please keep your opinions to yourself, you have no idea what you're talking about. You're only making a fool of yourself every time you touch that keyboard.

AMF
15th Jun 2010, 05:47
Good luck with trying to raise your pay/quality of life Spirit pilots. It's nice to see a group trying to swim against the general tide of aviation whoring that goes on out here in both the airline and corporate worlds.

stilton
15th Jun 2010, 05:54
AFOS, your arrogance is unbelievable.



If every professional Pilot felt like you we would all live in the Aircraft, have no days off except the few the benevolent company gave us to work another job in order to pay them for the privilege of flying their Aircraft.


Good luck all you Spirit Pilots and hang in there.

Neptunus Rex
15th Jun 2010, 06:50
Seems like a good time for the Teamsters to lobby a Democratic Government to amend or repeal the Railway Labor (sic) Act.

Sqwak7700
15th Jun 2010, 08:16
I am probably right in thinking prior to you joining Spirit you attended an interview, psychometric testing and probably a simulator test before being offered a job and signing the all important contract.

Wrong, AFOS, I am not a Spirit pilot and have never applied there. I am based in HKG flying for a HKG carrier. But I've been around aviation long enough to recognize an honorable cause when I see one.

And you are getting on this thread defending people (airline management) that exploited a horrendous situation like 9/11 to extrude concessions from employee groups in order to line their pockets with wads of cash.

That makes you no different than them. What makes you think that they are allowed to change the rules of the game and that their employees aren't? Spirit pilots have taken several concessions when the company said they needed to. Management did not reciprocate when they were raking in the money, yet you think it is their right to do that?

I sincerely hope that you never join our ranks again. I truly believe you are one of the individuals that has no problem racing to the bottom - willing to pay for training or cross a picket line just to get to your beloved job. :hmm:

D-LZ 126
15th Jun 2010, 09:13
Well said Squawk...If people like AFOS had his/her way even paying the company wouldn't be enough. I saw this same attitude coming from the COA 'replacement workers' back in the day...as if the COA strikers had 'signed up' sometimes decades prior, with Robert Six, for what Lorenzo and the Reagan labor department brought them...

SSDD

LZ 126

AFOS
15th Jun 2010, 09:51
So the cause is honour, you are flying for a HKG carrier for honour.
I am only attempting to put the otherside of the debate, no matter how unpaletable it may be.
As someone else wrote or implied, why did my colleagues not take some sort of industrial action against our Boss / Management when they would not upgrade the fleet from B737-200's.
The airline was privately owned, if the Boss does not want to spend money upgrading either the fleet or ops computer system, strike action would not have made any difference. Some of my colleagues like myself are still out of work due to the huge down turn in not only aviation but the world economic situation.
While Spirit, BA and anyone else think it is the right time to go on strike for "honourable" demands is questionable.
Here in England we as tax payers have had to suffer the indignity of having our Government polititians steal money from us, our senior financial experts both in Government and heads of our national banks all being accountable for the current financial situation, they are all paid off handsomely with bonuses, pensions etc, there is not a jot we can do about it.
Even now as we slowly come out of reccession, the current bankers are receiving remuneration packages, again we can do nothing about it.
Its in their contracts.
Up until 9/11 and the current financial problems we received an annual increment, usually inline with the current inflation figure. Sure it was tiny after we paid our taxes while other Management, Directors, share holders, etc got more than us, we were grateful, we still had a job
Now if your contract states you, as a pilot, are entitled to profit sharing, then I would back you all the way. If, as I suspect, your contract does not entitle you to profit sharing, then I don't back you.
Am also sure that if the terms and conditions that Spirit operate to is that bad then your FAA would surely step in. I suspect the FAA have not stepped in because Spirit have not or do not operate in a manner that contavenes safety.
We have and had a lot of airlines here in England, some are still here a lot have gone and the only one I know about which has a history of industrial action is the flag carrier which is currently 1Billion in debt and paying millions a day to other carriers to operate on their behalf.
What would your management say if your airline had an opportunity to operate as a sub-charter on behalf of BA, to earn your company huge amounts of money but instead go on strike?

There is a time to take action and this is not the time as we see here in England as a lot of BA staff cross the picket line as their individual financial concerns bite and bite hard. Am sure the BA management will recognise those that went on strike and those that showed loyalty when it comes round to the next annual increment payout when times are better.

Good luck to all, fly sure and fly safe.
AFOS

ironbutt57
15th Jun 2010, 12:12
AFOS sounds like a wannabe.....

protectthehornet
15th Jun 2010, 13:44
It is a sad thing when pilots and maagement don't get along enough to work together to make a good place to earn a living and make a fair profit for shareholders. some of us work at an airline and own its stock.

our airline USE to settle contracts by management and unions going out to dinner at a crummy little hotel called the diamond slipper. this place might have been nice during the Eisenhower administration, but not during the Reagan or later.

During this time, our airline made money and had the best balance sheet in the industry. The pilots enjoyed a fine contract which I still long for.

Things changed, and not for the best. Our airline even took the Bibles out of the overhead compartment near the magazines. Is there a connection? hmmm. Cooperation is a thing of the past. Yet management has enjoyed huge pay packages, bonuses and severence packages.

But, the bottom line is this...fair treatment of employees is good business. Our airline has not had a pilot strike in over 22 years.

Fubaliera
15th Jun 2010, 14:09
AFOS, you belong at Emirates or Qatar Airways. Squakk 7700, right on dude.

Bubi352
15th Jun 2010, 15:19
I can report that not one pilot of Spirit Airlines has crossed the line. Not one Spirit airplane has been flying since this past Saturday. The company has unsuccessfully tried to convince pilots to accept their garbage offer. The CEO has gone as far as emailing every pilots to try to "reason" with us. Management is in panic mode. Their plan has backfired. They were not expecting this at all.

The support of pilots from around the world has been overwhelming. We have so many pilots from different airlines picketing with us! Man, I am so proud of all our pilots at Spirit Airlines! We are staying strong. Please, keep spreading the word about our fight!

Squawk7777
15th Jun 2010, 16:36
Bubi, glad to hear that nobody crossed the line. There was initially a scab list of there with just two names on it, but it's great to hear that the entire pilot group sticks together.

While Spirit, BA and anyone else think it is the right time to go on strike for "honourable" demands is questionable.

Time to strike is and will always be questionable. There will be always a bad time to strike. First, it was the post 11 September climate, then the financial crises etc. Looking at management, you'll realize that their economic climate always remained very adequate. Like I said, if you as a leader of a company request cutbacks start with yourself. Only a very few CEOs/chairmen come to mind who waived their bonuses, e.g. BA and Delta.

If management were serious and conscious then they wouldn't have to worry about strikes. It's their lies and deception that created the mistrust from their own employees.

Johnny767
15th Jun 2010, 17:26
Best wishes to the Spirit Airlines Pilots.

We have two Airlines in Canada, Jazz and Air Transat (both ALPA Members) close to strike action. "Enuf is Enuf" of the corporated thiefs getting rich on the backs of the "Skill and Dedication" of the Pilots.

We have all seen the pay and respect of this career fall into a tail spin. It has been a conscience effort by Airline Management's (around the globe) to get the Pilots where they want them.

cmrflyer
15th Jun 2010, 18:02
AFOS, please stop trying to flame bait.
You are a moron, everyone on this board can see you are an idiot and have no spine.
The guys at Spirit are working for a company that is rolling in cash, it is time they spread that cash. Because of managments greed the pilots had no choice but to strike. Everytime there has been a strike in the airline business it was because managment forced it to happen.

Good luck Spirit pilots, everyone was is watching you and wishing you the very best.

Stand strong!

protectthehornet
15th Jun 2010, 19:44
I wish it were not true. We are our own worst enemy. We actually like our job. People have said things like: I'd do this for zero pay.

when I started , my dreams were more of cool planes, brave pilots and beautiful girl flight attendants.

money was there of course, but...

So, in order to "WIN" we must say: this is a job and if you don't pay enough, you won't have anyone to fy those cool planes with the beautiful flight attendants.

The only way to win is be ready to lose. forever.

but you will win if you stay focused.

when you do go back to work, be sure you are all current to fly, both legally and in your own mind. if your strike lasts more than 90 days, the whole airline needs currency landings.

u get my drift

Sqwak7700
15th Jun 2010, 20:32
AFOS, I know a couple of Chinese coal mines in HKG's back yard. You should apply, I think you would love it and won't ever have to worry about going on strike or getting "too much" from your employer. I think you will fit right in. :ok:

And as someone has already mentioned, there will always be something that management will cry about. If it isn't loads, it is fuel price. Take my workplace. They hedged themselves silly when fuel was at its highest and lost 8 billion, which they wrote off in 2008 and came crying to employees to take unpaid leave.

Just one year later, fuel goes back up and they now make 4 billion of that loss back. What do they tell employees? Oh, it is just a "paper profit", we didn't really make that money.

Oh yeah? Well you didn't claim it was a paper loss when you asked for concessions, yet now you cry that it is only a paper gain. :yuk:

p51guy
15th Jun 2010, 21:06
I am proud of the Spirit pilots for taking the action they did and strike against management gone amuck. These guys capitalized on postponing this with the archaic rules of the RLA. Now that the pilots are released to self help it becomes a level playing field. Let us all support them in this attempt to get all of our careers back on track.

flufdriver
15th Jun 2010, 22:06
It is hard for me to believe that you could be flying a public transport aircraft around the same sky as we are, no-one can be as naive as you imply you are with your posts.

For every person there comes a point at which you say "this far and no further" and if 98% of your colleagues agree with your assessment then it is time to do something or forever bend over and take it, which you seem prepared to do. Quite frankly I am surprised that you are not employed perhaps in airline management, you seem to have the attributes that are so popular with upper management at many carriers and BTW responsible for so much labour strive in this industry.

Withholding your labour is the last step in a long process to try and inject reality into negotiations of working conditions, I do not know any Pilot that would happily chose a route which has no alternate, but sometimes that is all that is left.

As it has been said many times; 'you do not get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate"

I do wish you well!

sunset_contrails_10
16th Jun 2010, 10:19
If pay at Spirit is so pathetic to begin with then why did any of their current pilot group ever apply to them in the first place? If you should be getting paid Jet Blue wages then why didn't you just hold out for Jet Blue?

I will never understand the pilot mentality. "Please hire me, Please hire me, Oh, Please hire me. Thank you for the job now I am going to strike because I don't like the pay!!!!"


Let me tell you how it should work. Don't go work for the airline if the pay sucks. If you decide to go work for them, than shut your mouth and do your job.

YOU HAVE NOBODY TO BLAME BUT YOURSELVES:D

ohandgoodluck

WALKINONCLOUDS
16th Jun 2010, 15:06
It's All Good



Swa Needs More Gates At Kfxe Anyway...........

Avman
16th Jun 2010, 16:17
Swa Needs More Gates At Kfxe Anyway...........

:hmm: FXE is Fort Lauderdale Executive! I think you'll find that SWA (and NKS) operate out of FLL ;)

DownIn3Green
16th Jun 2010, 17:58
Sounds like Sunset has it right to me....

Bubi352
16th Jun 2010, 20:53
Sunset_contrails_10, I can tell you have not been in the airline business very long. Are you one of those pilots that would also pay for a type rating? You guys are pathetic. You guys are the reason we fight in the first place. You keep lowering the bar in this industry.

Good luck on your job search (I see you are looking one - what a surprise!) but I guarantee you this type of attitude will get you no sympathy/respect in the cockpit.

Spirit Airlines pilots will be known in this industry. We will get what we want.

Bubi352
16th Jun 2010, 21:03
I just received news that we may have reached an agreement with the company! We are on the right track.

protectthehornet
16th Jun 2010, 23:40
Just Read Associated Press Article Saying Agreement Reached...airline To Fly Again On Friday.

Looks Like The Pilots Won!

p51guy
17th Jun 2010, 00:11
But, but Spirit management said they would close down their FLL base if the pilots went on strike! Were they lying or just changed their mind?

I know management wouldn't lie to it's employees like that just so they wouldn't strike......or would they?

I don't think that threat has been ever used before my management......
or has it?

And the beat goes on.....

WALKINONCLOUDS
17th Jun 2010, 02:24
MY MISTAKE KFLL IS CORRECT............




I AM GLAD THEY GOT A NEW CONTRACT.
MY GIRLFRIEND IS IN COLOMBIA AND SPIRIT IS A GREAT CARRIER.


:ok:

protectthehornet
17th Jun 2010, 02:50
management, lie??????????

well, well, well...will someone explain that management teams lie all the time

Bubi352
17th Jun 2010, 03:06
The strike is over!!!

We have reached a tentative agreement with the company. All pilots are returning to work this Friday. Pilots still need to vote for or against it in early July. According to the union, the tentative agreement meets all our expectations.

I am waiting to see the TA before celebrating but this was a good fight. This is what happens when everyone stick together. Management was cornered. They had no choice. Power to the pilots!

lomapaseo
17th Jun 2010, 03:40
As harsh as it may sound - The US domestic airline network has a massive over capacity problem. The market on the whole can simply not justify and sustain the current number of seats

Overcapacity?

I don't think so. Maybe a couple of years ago.

Of course being intimatedly involved in the airline business I would never invest in it (Fuel fluctuations, SARS, Volcanic Ash disruptions, Unhappy labour, over and undercapacity at the wrong times etc. )

p51guy
17th Jun 2010, 04:22
Ok, I understand now. Airline management lies all the time because no matter how many times they lie some people will still believe them. Especially the public who only see the lies when it directly affects their lives.

protectthehornet
17th Jun 2010, 04:35
saskatoon

no offense, but I don't think you have a clue how airlines work in the USA and how contracts work.

first off , these brave guys have been trying to get a contract update for3 years. so anything about last 12 months means zilch/nothing/nada/ zippo.

good luck spirit guys...and if the TA is as good as what the union expected, it sounds like the management team crumbled/caved in.

One of the really sad things is this. Management gets a bonus for screwing over pilots...management gets fired when things go well for pilots.

expect a new management team!

gtf
17th Jun 2010, 05:58
How can a contract that has been signed in the past 12mths be worthless?
Pilots are hired under the terms of a CBA negotiated with the union. Each CBA is up for renewal after x years. Even after the CBA comes up for renewal, its terms remain valid until it is replaced by a new CBA.

Spirit's CBA was up for renewal three years ago. During these three years, negotiations have gone nowhere. The union said management dragged its feet to avoid committing to a new CBA, management said it wasn't true. Either way, the union got tired of waiting after three years, called in a strike and there's now apparently an agreement on a new CBA.

411A
17th Jun 2010, 07:34
Sounds like Sunset has it right to me....

Yup, he sure does,and I've been in the airline business, as a line pilot, instructor,TRE/IRE and now...management, for over forty years.
The 'new' ALPO guys have sh** for brains.

Sqwak7700
17th Jun 2010, 09:45
Guys, you should be able to smell a windup on these forums. 411A and Sunset are nothing more than trolls fishing the PPRUNE waters. The best thing to do is ignore them and let them sit there with their fishing poles and no bites.

As far as the argument that "you sign a contract when you get hired, now deal with it", that shows a complete lack of understanding. Management also sign up with a set contract, yet they also renegotiate and get pay rises as the company grows and becomes more profitable. Why should any other employee group be any different?

And what about when management asks you for concessions? You can't apply one logic when the company needs your help, then turn around and say it is not valid during better times.

And for all you bottom-racers on here, there is a reason that all aircraft manufacturers are pushing for silly measures like MPLs and single pilot cockpits. Don't loose sight of this fact whenever you sell yourself short.

To all Spirit Crew; good to hear that you have reached an agreement and I hope that it meets or exceeds your expectations. Well done boys and girls, you have set an example that unity, participation, and spending time to know your rights is a powerful weapon against corporate tyranny. Next time we are in the bar together, whenever that may be, the round is on me! :D

Wino
17th Jun 2010, 13:54
Well said 7700,

There is another round of Kudos that needs to be extended as well... This goes to all the non sked and charter operator pilots out there that refused to fly charters for SPIRIT. Spirit managment thought they would simply be able to charter 30 or so jets on the open market (and they certainly exist out there) to replace the flying.

Only 1 flight was successfully chartered. A falcon air MD80 who's crew is now famous (and not in a good way, search youtube if you like). Managment was unable to contract the lift, and good on every pilot in America working at other airlines that told their own management, not only no but HELL NO!

Cheers
Wino:ok:

Big Pistons Forever
17th Jun 2010, 15:00
You do not get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. To be successfull you have to negotiate from a position of strengh. It appears to me that management thought their position of strengh was to lie and obfuscate while threatening job cuts and thus intimidate the pilot group into accepting a substandard contract. The union played to its strengh, union solidarity during a withdrawl of services, an outcome the mangagement was clearly unprepared for.

Seems to me the airline management was thoughly out manoevered. This is not personal it is just business. The scary part is that Spirit mangement has been exposed as incompetant clowns...this does not bode well for the future as competant management is important for the long term success of the airline. Just look at Southwest, IMO the best managed airline in North America if not the world.

411A
17th Jun 2010, 17:42
this does not bode well for the future as competant management is important for the long term success of the airline.

Yup.
Look for the present management to be replaced, then the ALPO contract will be renegotiated in about twelve months.
No renegotiation?
Fold the airline and assign the certificate to a new entity.
Connie Kaletta did this quite successfully some years ago, leaving the union high and dry.
ALPO guys never learn.....:ugh:

Big Pistons Forever
17th Jun 2010, 18:26
So far no airline in the history of aviation has cut its way to long term profitabilty. It is easy to cut wages, the hard work is managing the in a system wide and systematic consistant way, the tension between efficency and operational effectiveness and having the vision and intestinal fortitude to spend 1 dollar now to save 10 dollars down the road. Spirit unfortunately IMO is probably a flash in the pan that will eventually sucumb to the failings of its misguided fetish on cost savings at any cost......

The good news is at least in the mean time the pilots will at least have decent terms and conditions.

p51guy
17th Jun 2010, 21:44
411A, didn't you say on an earlier post you are now management after going through the pilot ranks?

Spirit will probably change their management now. The pilots want it to be done ASAP. The new contract will not be renegotiated and you know it. Is one of the first things management training trains you is to lie and believe it is the truth?

Spirit is not going to fail because of the pilot contract. We all know that. The future economy could affect them like anybody else but this contract will have no effect on the outcome.

Good job Spirit, now hopefully every airline pilot sees the light at the end of the tunnel to get through the RLA process and go on strike to get the companies attention. It seems to be the only way to deal with them.

Two's in
17th Jun 2010, 22:10
Interesting to see no mention of the circa 80,000 fare paying passengers whose flights were cancelled during all this. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this dispute you can bet your bottom dollar that few of those people or their friends and relatives will trouble Spirit with their future business. Plenty more fish in the sea?

Wino
17th Jun 2010, 22:17
Two's in.

Unfortunately, what you say is not true.... The pax will come back in droves for a fare sale that is 5 cents cheaper than the next ticket. In the day and age of priceline, leisure carriers like Spirit compete strictly on price. Strikes happen, as long as everyone gets back to work and starts moving the people, 6 months from now it will be like it never happened. In many cases, those pax will be back in a hurry, once they saw what it cost to fly on AA/DELTA/Contintal, and they realize that the extra money didn't get em any extra worthwhile service...


There is no such thing a brand loyalty these days, with the exception of large business accounts, and spirit doesn't have the kind of market penetration to attract business accounts...

These days it doesn't matter how good your service is, you live and die by your priceline listing. Don't believe me? How's midwest express these days?

Cheers
Wino

free at last
17th Jun 2010, 22:20
They will be back in drove's, tough to beat that $9 seat. Spirit Pilot's we are proud of You. From a line pilot of 40+ years. Thanks to all of You.:):)

protectthehornet
17th Jun 2010, 22:32
passengers and strikes

way back in 1975, when I was a soldier in the US Army, I was planning my Christmas Leave in October. It was common knowledge that United Pilots were planning a strike around Christmas.
So, I had to make my reservations on Piedmont to IAD from Norfolk, and from IAD to Phoenix on TWA continuing to SFO on TWA.

I was the only guy who got home for Christmas that year.

the buyer must beware...those passengers interviewed on TV seemed like NON SAVY travelers.

Spirit Union Pilots, did you issue a press release of possible strike? I'll bet you did!

Merlyn
18th Jun 2010, 02:33
First off yes, we warned passengers of a possible strike even to the point of placing billboards announcing the same at three of our major cities.

I have been pleasantly surprised and gratified by the vast outpouring of support from our flight attendants, other company employees as well as all the pilots of other airlines who walked our picket line with us. We cannot thank you all enough and I know that we will return the favour when you need us.

I have also been appalled at the breathtaking arrogance, stupidity, ignorance, and cowardice of you management suckups who criticised our painful decision to strike. To those dimwits I say this.

Believe it or not we are all at least as smart and sane as you so give us credit for having thought long and hard before we made the difficult decision to strike. There is not time enough to explain the shabby, degrading treatment that management calmly and deliberately administered to us over the last 3 years with the calculated goal of destroying our morale in order to impose a concessionary contract that would have reduced our wages and made us at will employees at a time when the company was making massive profits (over 100 million USD last year)and planning a major expansion.

To those who say we agreed to our terms and conditions and should abide by them forever consider this. Management threw that last contract away with their concessionary proposals. They did not agree to begin negotiating off our last contract until shortly before the strike deadline. That last contract was agreed upon at a time when our flying was vastly different than it is now. The compensation package was fair enough for day, domestic flying into secondary airports with comfortable turn times and one or two legs per day. It proved woefully inadaquate to compensate for 3 or 4 leg days with 30 minute turns operating at night, over water, on the back side of the clock into international caribbean, central, and south american destinations with the challenges of active volcanos, high altitude airports, language dificulties, inadaquate alternates and the support limitations of a bare bones carrier like spirit.

Do what you like with your own career but as far as your negative opinions on this great pilot group who took a brave and necessary stand for our careers, just shut your mouths and crawl back under your rocks. You disgust me.

protectthehornet
18th Jun 2010, 04:10
Merlyn

thanks for confirming that the pilots warned the passengers ( not self loading freight...I wish someone would drop that ).

Like I said in my post about getting home for Christmas...buyer/flyer beware.

While the circumstances are different, I remind everyone that the GERMANS warned everyone in New York with a LARGE AD in the Newspapers basically saying that the RMS Lusitania ( ship during World War 1) would be sunk by military action and not to board her.

YET over 1000 people boarded and sadly , died.

When a pilot group warns you of a strike, you better look for other methods of transportation.

411A
18th Jun 2010, 05:38
It proved woefully inadaquate to compensate for 3 or 4 leg days with 30 minute turns operating at night, over water, on the back side of the clock into international caribbean, central, and south american destinations with the challenges of active volcanos, high altitude airports, language dificulties, inadaquate alternates and the support limitations of a bare bones carrier like spirit.
Awh, the poor babies.:ugh:
Now it's 'overworked' as well as 'underpaid.
So, now this extra pay will somehow make 'language difficulties':rolleyes: somehow better?

Oh yes, that extra pay and benefits...what are they, and how compared to the previous last company offer?
Or, as I suspect, all this bravado is so much ALPO horsepucky.

p51guy
18th Jun 2010, 12:32
I don't believe the international flying had anything to do with the strike. They were underpaid and fixed it the only way they could. Going on strike. :D

brokepilot
18th Jun 2010, 13:18
Well for one thing. In the past contract you could be schedued to depart at 8:00PM and land at 8:00AM after a few legs.Then go and fly a trans con or a 7 hour red eye turn again at 8:00PM that same night. Over and over again. Also no more multi red eye legs. i.e.2200 departure LAX to ORD to FLL for a 1400 arrival . Just to go back out and fly that night at 2300. New contract this will not happen. This is a QOL issue that was needed.This is just one of many things fixed in the new contract. Oh yea and more pay$$. Sounds good to me.I won't ask any questions to any of you ALPA /Union pilot bashers out there. Because your opinion means NOTHING! This is a Spirit Pilots battle.
:)

merlinxx
18th Jun 2010, 14:16
It's about time that the FAA accepted REAL FLTsand imposed them, not the crap that is in the FARs now. Take a look you lot at UK CAA CAP371 and argue :ugh:

clunckdriver
18th Jun 2010, 14:35
411A, may I suggest you take your medication before posting?

Wino
18th Jun 2010, 15:40
I agree with Merlin,

I have operated on both sides of the pond, under FAR's and CAP371...

What the FAA allows should be illegal. There is no rest in the US rest requirements... And oddly enough, sometimes you can fly a lot further with an unaugmented crew under the UK rules, so its not about just rest... With REAL rest can come real productivity...

Because the government refuses to mandate proper rest for pilots, unfortunately its up to the unions to obtain it.

Cheers
Wino

411A
18th Jun 2010, 17:38
411A, may I sugest you take your medication before posting?

Considering 'suggest' is mis-spelled, nevertheless...no medication is needed, just the facts from the latest contract ...versus...the latest company offer.
Unless, of course, said pilots are afraid to post same....:rolleyes::ugh:

p51guy
19th Jun 2010, 00:10
Spirit captains will cap at 185 per hr. I forget the FO pay but with signing agreement will do well this year. I think Spirit did well on getting pay for everybody. Good job guys.

protectthehornet
19th Jun 2010, 02:09
185 an hour...that's damn good...though just before 9/11, our contract would have a 737=300 captain at about 220 an hour....we lost that with huge pay cuts as everyone knows...

BUT HERE IS THE QUESTION:

how much should a 737NG captain get at the top of the longevity scale /hourly, with pension, health, vacation, and other benefits? I am using the 737NG as sort of a standard...767 would be more...EMB190 would be less etc.

how much do we think WE are worth?

WhatsaLizad?
19th Jun 2010, 04:08
how much do we think WE are worth?


Who cares? Management, the traveling public and the general public could give a damn what we think we are worth. We are coldly looked upon as a unfortunate cost of doing business and are paid based on what we negotiate.

Management coldly looks at the costs involved to increase our pay, the costs to replace us with other pilots or those of another holding company, or the costs involved with the liquidation of the company. What our perceptions our when we look in the mirror are not a concern for them and I don't blame them. We also shouldn't flatter ourselves when we get managments close attention. We're nothing more than a daily expense decison like that of buying a jet or a box of toilet paper.

411A
19th Jun 2010, 07:14
Management coldly looks at the costs involved to increase our pay, the costs to replace us with other pilots or those of another holding company, or the costs involved with the liquidation of the company. What our perceptions our when we look in the mirror are not a concern for them and I don't blame them. We also shouldn't flatter ourselves when we get managments close attention. We're nothing more than a daily expense decison like that of buying a jet or a box of toilet paper.
Yup.
Sadly, many line pilots go through their entire career without realising these very basic facts.:ugh:

Plectron
19th Jun 2010, 07:52
Totally agree 411. And, when we are flying these incredibly expensive (per hour) aircraft, what we are paid doesn't even show on the bottom line. Double it or work for nothing, it makes no real difference to the total cost of doing business. But put one in the dirt......

If you are flying a 402 or Beech 99/1900 then the hourly rate of the pilot is significant - say you are making 40 dollars an hour. 19 Passengers on the 1900. Reasonable pay. 300 passengers....say what?

We have steadily lost ground in the 40 years I have been in this business. I could buy a NICE new car with the before tax Captain MONTHLY salary when I started and the airlines had smaller airplanes. We worked 70 hours a month, and had rules about how we were treated.

Sadly, we gave it all away. And, the incredible thing is - it didn't help the companies at all.

413X3
19th Jun 2010, 18:26
it's ironic, considering management are the ones who can be easily replaced, who make much more than the workers who are directly involved in getting the plane from point A to B.

411A
19th Jun 2010, 18:38
....than the workers who are directly involved in getting the plane from point A to B.
You are but a very small cog in quite a rather large wheel...pilots, dime a dozen....First Officers especially.
Very experienced Captains...the exception.
The sooner pilots realise this, the better.
Some never do of course, and can be wound up like a cheap watch by ALPO etc.

The airline marketing manager is far more important...no bums in seats, pilots and ground engineers... not needed.

protectthehornet
19th Jun 2010, 19:11
let me re phrase:

how much are you willing to go on strike for? use 737ng as a guide or any plane you like.

if SPIRIT gets 185 an hour...should American get 220? for example

Without pilots there is no airline...we need mechanics, dispatchers, fa's and the myriad of people to make things work...but without pilots everyone else can stay home.

DownIn3Green
19th Jun 2010, 20:00
PTH,

As 411 says...there are always pilots available...the Marketing and Financial guys in the Ivory Tower are the ones who make the whole thing work...

Like it or not, that's the way it is...

And BTW...a 737NG Capt at AA probably has more seniority than their counterpart at Spirit...

p51guy
19th Jun 2010, 21:56
AA caps out at 12 years like Spirit so longevity beyond that doesn't affect pay. Yes, if Spirit gets 185 AA will get 220. AA just needs to be released to cooling off like Spirit was. We have been trying to reach this point as long as Spirit. AA going on strike will have a much bigger impact so the RLA will be pushed to it's max to delay cooling off. However as soon as they will eventually have to AMR will get serious about negotiating. They won't until this happens as we have seen.

As pilots we need to ignore the few posters previous to this post that say pilots are a dime a dozen so just take what they give you. They said this before the Spirit strike. Thank God the Spirit pilots didn't listen to them.

I was walking the picket line the night of AA's strike which Clinton stopped after 20 minutes. I expect the same thing will happen when we strike again. The positive part of that strike was that we made the company negotiate a fair contract.

411A
21st Jun 2010, 06:48
You claim to be management but no managers I know have time to to make over 7000 posts on PPRuNe!!!
EasyGlider might be excused for not knowing many managers then...:rolleyes:
Sadly, many pilots think the entire airline world revolves around them (and their kind)...this might be true if there was a 'shortage' however, there isn't and highly likely never will be...therefore, pilots are a dime a dozen, with some exceptions IE: very experienced Captains, TRE/IRE's etc.
Just look at a few airlines in Euroland...they wave the possibility of a pilot job and are inundated with applications from folks that will actually pay the company for the 'privilege'.
Gotta laugh at this nonsense...:}:}

ZQA297/30
21st Jun 2010, 07:54
411A
with some exceptions IE: very experienced Captains, TRE/IRE's etc.

Check any bar on 36th street, Miami. :ok:

Easy Glider
21st Jun 2010, 17:18
No 411A, I know plenty of managers in many different industries including aviation. was one myself many years ago! I am just amazed how you find the time to rant on pprune virtually continuously as demonstrated with your 7600--yes seven thousand six hundred posts!!!!!

So come on old boy, let us in on your secret, how do you find the time? The managers I know put in 10 -12 hour days not including traveling. The last thing they would want to do after that is bang out seven thousand posts on here!

My guess is that you are in fact managing no more than a single ac operation in arizona with maybe a seneca??? maybe doing night mail??? am I close?? You certainly have failed to reach a position in any of the legacy carriers as demonstrated by your constant vitrol aimed particularly at A.A pilots. So come on, how many times have you been rejected by them? or indeed any of the others, (Delta, United,North West etc. etc.)

What in fact you are is a very sad, bitter, twisted soul with literally nothing else to fill your existence other than knocking individuals on here. If it was me, I'd be reaching for the 12 guage!!!

411A
22nd Jun 2010, 07:48
So come on old boy, let us in on your secret, how do you find the time?
Do a forum search, EG, and you will find out.
A heavy jet Captain for over thirty five years...how about you?

PS: attacking the poster is always considered poor form, especially when you have nothing of value regarding the posted subject.:rolleyes:

AFOS
23rd Jun 2010, 12:32
Looking at the replies to those of us who do not agree with the Spirit Airlines pilot strike, the comments, anger, sarcasm, inuendo and the like worries me as to see these childish scribblings by so called professional pilots, who must exercise constraint, calm logic thinking with quick decisive decision making, look like they are demonstrating anything but.
If you have the time to scribe comments as such while some of us are attempting to have a reasoned debate, certainly concerns me getting on an aircraft with attitudes demonstrated. God help them when it goes wrong up their, will they spit their dummies out in equal vitriolic manner?

If the Spirit crews have indeed won their case then very best of luck, have many years of safe flying.
AFOS

kenhughes
23rd Jun 2010, 17:07
It would seem to be "Situation Normal" at Spirit again:

Spirit Airlines: 'Check Out The Oil On Our Beaches!' (PHOTO) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/23/spirit-airlines-check-out_n_622266.html)

protectthehornet
23rd Jun 2010, 20:00
I have no reason to believe that 411 isn't what he says he is. Now, I may disagree with his views, but I believe he has been and may currently be a wideboy (L1011) captain.

let us all say who we are and we can believe it...I was brought up to think my word is my bond. I hope you are all the same way.

p51guy
23rd Jun 2010, 21:20
411A doesn't have a high opinion of airline pilots and loves management. I personally don't think he is who he says he is. He seems very angry at pilots wanting to further their careers. He seems to know pretty much what is going on in the industry but don't believe his BS.

wiggy
23rd Jun 2010, 21:31
I'm with protectthehornet on this... I may not agree with 411A's views but I reckon he is indeed a L-1011 Captain, maybe even Chief Pilot, for an outfit perhaps based in Africa?? In any event his insight into the line pilot psyche is spot on, especially the dog eat dog mentality.....

Spooky 2
24th Jun 2010, 01:08
Do the math. This guy is at least 69 or 70 and it's unlikey that he is flying anything these days. The fact that he has enjoyed many years on the L1011 is nice but that alone does not make him an authority on anything beyond that. Most of it is in his own imagination.:E

737ngpilot
24th Jun 2010, 03:10
I think Spirit pilots and for that matter most aviators have taken it on the chin for to long.....Thanks for fighting back

protectthehornet
24th Jun 2010, 03:29
spooky

the best pilot I ever flew with was in his 60's...he flew planes that aren't flown anymore except in airshows.

this guy taught me more about flying in five minutes than I learned in years in other venues.

so don't disparage an older pilot who flew or flies a superior type of airplane like the L1011.

now, I don't agree with 411 and some of his views, but flying one of the airliners ahead of its time, by a company synonymous with incredible airplanes is NOTHING to sneeze at.

But 411 and I don't agree about pilots...oh well

DownIn3Green
24th Jun 2010, 04:43
I'll back PTH on 411A's experience...I almost had a chance to work for him on the 727 years ago in the Far East...As to his views, I tend to agree more than disagree....but not always...

411A
24th Jun 2010, 08:58
his insight into the line pilot psyche is spot on, especially the dog eat dog mentality....
Yup, I tell it like it is, not how some (many) would like it to be.
Most (but not all) airline pilots today are at the mercy of the company, they call the shots, the pilots either accept...or do without.
Yes, ALPO (etc) win a few battles, however, the ultimate facts are...the pilots play second fiddle to the company.
This is especially true in Euroland, where the pay-to-fly idea has caught on in a major way.
Silly fools...a sucker born every minute.
However, a superb idea from the airlines perspective...what a deal:}
Do the math. This guy is at least 69 or 70 and it's unlikey that he is flying anything these days.
I can see math was not Spooky2's major.:E

Spooky 2
24th Jun 2010, 11:04
Your full of it 411A. If you were flying the 1649A Starliner when you told me you were, unless you were only eighteen at the time, your surely over 65 these days. Nothing wrong with that but your stories just don't add up. :}

Spooky 2
24th Jun 2010, 11:07
PTH, Nothing was meant to demean 411A's TriStar time. I only have around 4,000 in it so a mere mortal like myself is probably not worthy of any comments. Having 20,000 in an airplane that is not in service anymore is meaningless, unless you plan to write a book about it

HeadingSouth
24th Jun 2010, 11:52
...hence all the experience gained in a plane which is not in service anymore is therefore meaning- and useless.

Then again I got a total of zero hours on a TriStar hence I shut up immediately.

Spooky 2
24th Jun 2010, 11:58
Actually I enjoy 411A's perspective on both the L1011 and his unique view of himself as the defining authority on airmanship. Got to have something to bring back those memories once and while.

411A
24th Jun 2010, 12:16
..your surely over 65 these days.

Not quite, but keep guessing....:}

protectthehornet
24th Jun 2010, 21:37
spooky2

you are telling me that someone with 20,000 hours in an SR71 wouldn't impress you?

or a B58?

or a B47?

or a B17?

while it might be tought to have 20,000 hours in the B58, anyone with any kind of experience, even if it is in planes not used today, have a world of wisdom to share.

Spooky 2
25th Jun 2010, 01:31
PTH...No one has 20,000, much less 2,000 in the SR71. The high time U2 pilot has just over 2,000. As for the B58 or what ever else, what's your point. BTW I work with a former SR71 guy and his total time in the airplane is less than 500 hours, but it makes for a shit hot story at the bar.:ok:

411A is an extremely interesting. I believe I know who is hiding behind his screen name but it's meaningless. "Thirty five years as a widebody Commander" looks good on your mantle but it won't get you a cheeseburger in todays world.

Like many of us on this board I suppose we try to put a face with the person hiding behind the screen name. How about some full disclosure and sharing your background with us as I usually enjoy reading your posts.

p51guy
25th Jun 2010, 02:07
I have been looking at the Spirit now versus new pay rates and even though the captains only get 10%, day of signing the 185 pay is apparently for the A319 and the A321 caps 10% higher at about 204. That is about what AA 777 captains make. A lot of people are griping about the TA but think they should look at it more closely before they vote it down.

p51guy
25th Jun 2010, 13:23
A. A pilot will receive the following hourly rates based on status and longevity as
follows for aircraft having a seating capacity of 99 or more passengers but not
more than 180 passengers, excluding the Airbus 321 (A321):
Captain Pay Rates
Years of Service DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4
1 64.65 64.65 65.94 99.62 101.62
2 96.64 96.64 98.57 119.49 121.88
3 104.46 104.46 106.55 124.04 126.52
4 108.14 108.14 110.30 128.78 131.35
5 115.51 115.51 117.82 133.68 136.35
6 117.65 117.65 120.00 138.78 141.56
7 119.74 119.74 122.13 143.73 146.60
8 133.68 139.16 141.94 147.73 150.68
9 135.69 142.27 145.12 152.15 155.20
10 137.73 145.44 148.35 156.72 159.86
11 140.53 149.10 152.08 161.43 164.65
12 143.30 152.84 155.90 166.27 169.60
13 146.09 156.61 159.74 171.25 174.67
14 148.90 160.44 163.65 176.40 179.93
15 151.67 164.33 167.62 181.68 185.32
First Officer Pay Rates
Years of Service DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4
1 38.50 38.50 38.50 38.50 38.50
2 61.31 66.22 67.54 70.63 72.05
3 66.38 71.69 73.12 76.21 77.73
4 71.39 77.10 78.65 82.22 83.86
5 76.35 82.45 84.10 88.19 89.96
6 78.77 85.07 86.77 93.57 95.44
7 80.77 87.23 88.98 97.97 99.93
8 82.60 89.21 90.99 101.16 103.19
9 83.19 89.85 91.64 104.13 106.21
10 84.22 90.96 92.78 107.13 109.27
DRAFT
TA
A321 hours flown per month are at 110% of these 319 and 320 rates averaged into the total hrs flown. Pilots get this per hr no matter which plane they fly.
+8% intnl pay
3K for CA's and 10K for FO's on signing
This TA was published by ALPA this morning

protectthehornet
25th Jun 2010, 14:33
spooky2

my point, albeit expanded for clarity, is this.

just because a plane is no longer in service, doesn't mean a pilot's experience in those planes should be thrown out.

Merlyn
25th Jun 2010, 14:50
A certain number of people on these bitch boards are griping about the TA. My experience talking with guys on the line is a lot more positive. This is a good TA and will pass IMHO.

Wino
25th Jun 2010, 16:30
There are quite a few things in the T/A I would like to have for the American Airlines pilot contract, including their hotel policy.... Their pay rates will be higher than ours by the end of the contract as well...

Cheers
Wino

p51guy
25th Jun 2010, 16:59
Wino, yes their hotel policy is better than AA. If we can get through the RLA barrier hopefully we can get back on track with pay. This has got to be an embarassment to our union. Hopefully this will set our sights higher.
Notice when fuel prices go up AA just pays? If all the US airlines pilot pay went up they could pay too. It is harder to bargain for lower fuel prices.

Spooky 2
25th Jun 2010, 17:48
PTH, Okay I see your point.

AlvinZane
19th Jul 2010, 17:54
The C/P and Op's man left Spirit rather than cross the line. Are they coming back with the new TA? Will the Pilot group negotiate their return, or will management plant a new clone in these seats?

p51guy
20th Jul 2010, 09:00
Hopefully they will reinstate them but if they don't the pilots will respect what they did. They will be line pilots and will feel good about themselves. They did the right thing.