Selection and selection

[AJArkley]

Afternoon all,

Some of you will recognise the name; others will not. To let you know a bit about me: I have previously applied to NATS, and failed selection. I have every intention of applying again, and will do when the time is right. However, I amn't looking for advice on passing the selection process; unlike many numpty's, I have the ability to read the big obvious thread at the top of this sub-forum that contains much invaluable inforamtion about the NATS process. More cube practise and I should be ok.

The issue I have is this: I know exactly what I want to do in ATC. I would love to be an approach controller; don't mind which position (preferably a London one (not London Belfast though...) although Beggers cannot be Choosers), but that is where my heart is set. Having done at least some homework, I'm aware of the fact that I really have very little choice in the matter, and assuming I pass selection and the medical, I go where the company puts me. I have been informed, however, that el Candidate is provided with a choice. My question is this:

Is this "chioce" really paid attention to by the Company, and is "Approach please" really a valid option?

Best regards,
Adam Arkley

[Someone_Else]

I think you already know the answer to this question.

Yes, you will be asked what your preference is and there is a chance that you would get that option.

However, you should continue with the application on the basis that you may get sent anywhere in the UK and with any discipline. Don't build up hopes and you wont feel let down!

Good luck with the next attempt.

[eastern wiseguy]

What the hell is a "London Belfast" one?

[ZOOKER]

AJ,
you've hit the nail on the head......
"more cube practise", (practice??) is required. :ok:
Why?
Because, allegedly, joining NATS is like joining 'The Borg'.
You will be 'assimilated', and "resistance is useless". :E

P.S. '7of9' will not be there to mop your fevered brow! :}

[AJArkley]

eastern_wiseguy,
<< What the hell is a "London Belfast" one? >>

Apparently, a fairly bad joke... Think London Oxford and you may get it then.

Zooker,
A shame. I could use some attention after those flipping tests! And please, it's Adam! J is my middle initial.

Someone_Else,
Aye, I'm not afraid of being sent "elsewhere", but my order of preference would be Swanwick based Approach position, TC/AC, Other Approach position, Aerodrome. I know it's possible that I may end up controlling Gibralter or something awquard (sp?) like that, but hey. I can live in hope.

My question was less "do I get a choice," and more "is Approach a valid option?" I have only heard previously that the choice lies between Area and Aerodrome, but I may be misinformed.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I am sure that NATS posts people where they are needed. Lets face it, the people doing the postings are normal people who simply want to do their job and go home..

When I got through the interview process I wrote to ATCHQ and asked if I could please be posted somewhere in southern England as I had a young family and family ties in the area. I then wrote (honest!) "I suppose I had now better start bag-pipe lessons". Result was I was posted to Heathrow, which was my ultimate ambition...

Good luck with getting through the nausea first. Thankfully they never had that nonsense in my day or I'd be sweeping the streets..

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

I'm afraid NATS barely care about their current controllers so don't really care about new ones that "want to do approach from Swanwick". You go where you are put!

The amount of money they are spending on you in training gives you little voice in where you're going to go unfortunately!

[lemony]

Hi,

I also would like to do approach and be based at swanwick, although I'd be happy with wherever I get based as long I get to the job I have always wanted. To do approach apparently you start off on the aero course then 1 intake in 4 gets offered the approach course. As I'm guessing its an add-on to the standard aero then you may have some option to request it as I think the majority of people doing the aero couse want to be tower based. Well this is what I'm hoping at least.

[AJArkley]

lemony,

This is along the same lines as what I heard, but then it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense in some ways. Sure, it works if you go somewhere like Birmingham or Farnborough, where the approach units are "in house," but where does selection come from for the Swanwick positions?

[Someone_Else]

Well to answer that question, yes there is an 'Approach Only' option, you would be destined for TC and live out your days working either LL,KK,LC or Essex.

You would still require the ADC option at college as that gives you the background required to operate APC.

I may be wrong as things change all the time down there in gods green land but the quickest way out of the college is to do ADC and then sent to one of the London ADs, you would effectively do the one module then go to one of the above airfields (after 3-4 months I think). Tacking on APC would be next (adding another 3 or so months)

If you ended up doing TC then the ADC part of your student licence would eventually lapse.

Then the long un is Area.

[lemony]

I don't know where the selection comes from to be honest, but then where does the selection for aerodromes come from? If they need people on approach they will run the course, then allocate people completing it to where they need them. It will be the same course for all approach as it should cover the same stuff, just the validation will be different between units.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I don't know where the selection comes from to be honest, but then where does the selection for aerodromes come from?>>

It comes from NATS knowing where staff are needed and allocating them accordingly. I don't know how it works now but yonks ago postings often depended on how well one fared on the course. The bright boys went to busy places and those less able went to quieter ones. It didn't always work out though because nobody can tell if a student will validate anywhere until he/she starts live training.

[eastern wiseguy]

Although HD it seems our potential colleague has already decided that he will be a Sky God and the rest of the hard working approach controllers in backwaters like Belfast are below him.

I do so hope he gets to broaden his horizons.:hmm:

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

I hope the controller you meet in your interview (if you get through) is in fact one from Belfast. I agree with eastern wiseguy... what a snobby comment to make! Have had no complaints with Belfast controllers at all and in fact most of them could probably outdrink the whole of England :ok: Brilliant laugh

[AJArkley]

Heh, what an assumptive bunch you are.

I have no recollection of prioritising any approach controller over any other. I even went and re-read the thread, and still couldn't find any. My "London Belfast" comment was more about the increasing radius in which airfields can be called "London ..." This is particularly derived from the recent addition of London Oxford to the bunch. I was simply emphasising my desire to control one of the Swanwick positions; this is mainly due to the area. I prefer living in the South, what little of my family remains is in the South, and I would prefer to stay here. That does not, however, dismiss the fact that should my application to NATS be successful, I would be happy to go where the Company puts me.

Snob? No. Sky God? Never, such things don't exist. I have maximum respect for anyone related with Aeronautical bits, be it a Ballooner, Glider, SEP, MEP, Multi-Jet or Space Shuttle pilot, or an Air/Grand Operator, AFISO or ATCO. My horizons were well broadened after my visits to Farnborough and Swanwick, where I have seen what controllers of many types have to deal with. Perhaps the most eye-opening portion of my time was spent set at London Information with a loveley woman, lsitening to the co-ordination of a PC12 with Dublin. At about the same time, traffic levels were deemed high enough to split the two FIS positions. The handover was seemless, and I was amazed at the simplicity that was shown of such a complex entity.

Whilst your targetted comments may have been intended light heartedly, I for one do not take kindly to that sort of accusation. I would never speak of any controller in such a manner.

Kindly,
Adam Arkley

[ADIS5000]

Eastern , Sir HG,

Down boys, I don't think the poor young chap was in any way being snobby, or pretentious. Surely he only mentioned Belfast in a humorous way: well I thought it was funny! Please put your delicate egos and slight paranoia carefully back into their silk-lined, lead cased boxes!

Indeed Eastern, how dare you call Belfast a backwater!!:E

Regards, ADIS:)

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

No-one has respect for Redhill controllers, though ......... :)

[AJArkley]

Actually I know an AFISO from Redhill. Not quite ATCO but hey.

Done now?

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

It is their controllers that need to put down their copies of " Pushing Tin " and " Top Gun". :ok:

[Arkady]

Adam

The good news is that a posting to Swanwick (in whatever capacity) is the most likely outcome of joining NATS. Avoid Aerodrome and it becomes even more likely!!

I am interested to know why you would want to be an approach controller ahead of a TMA or Area controller. No agenda or judgement attached , just interested in the thinking behind it.

[Dan Dare]

Actually I know an AFISO from Redhill. Not quite ATCO but hey

Sorry, its not your day Adam, but "Redhill Tower" is an ATCO unit unlike "Fairoaks Information" (FISO) and "Dunsfold Radio" (A/G radio operator). Don't be too hard on yourself though, few in nats seem to understand the difference so its little wonder that pilots don't get it.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Dane Dare Redhill does have a FISO service at times, though. I've only flown under a Tower controller and boy the bloke was an eejit :ok: Seemed to think talking fast when completely unrequired made him look cool. :)

[AJArkley]

dan dare,
Nice try, but as you may or may not have read in post 1, I do my homework.

Arkady,
I'm not entirely sure. I think there's a greater sense of attraction to a puzzle of mixing separation distances depending on aircraft type, creating, working and maintaining gaps and vectoring aircraft to a precision approach, than there is to putting everything at equal spacing with standard vertical separation. I'm not saying that TC/AC is easier than approach, but it just seems... "More."

[Arkady]

Honest answer and it is good to see a wannabe thinking about what the job involves. More good news for you then, almost every sector at Swanwick, even the high level ones, practise some form of sequencing. It is not as intense as approach but there are a lot of other things going on as well!

I'm not trying to dissuade you, just letting you know that if those are your reasons you needn't be too disappointed if you find yourself doing TMA or En-route. :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

AJ.. You have a great deal to learn yet. Just about all Area, TC and APC controllers use radar all day long. Some would argue that the regimented approach function is like a sausage machine whilst the TMA guys are climbing and descending and using radar control every second of their lives. No job in ATC is "easy". I used to sit alongside the TMA people and it would frighten me to death..... but then they'd gaze in amazement at Gatwick organising their single runway spacing or Heathrow packing them in 2.5 miles apart or Thames and Essex working minor miracles with all the clockwork mice mixed with commercial jets. I've seen plenty of Area controllers fail on Approach and vice vesa..

PS. Those who say approach is like a butchers shop usually haven't done it!!!

[AJArkley]

Brendan (I think),
No argument from me. I have only scraped the surface of Air Traffic with what little knowledge I have, but I also claim to "not know little." I think ATC is massively vast, and I doubt many people can ever understand it fully. I realise that there are many types of ATC, then types within types of APC (thinking instrumental and visual Aerodrome, radar based and procedural Approach etc.) All I can say with any amount of honesty is this is what I want to do with my life!

Cheers,
Adam Arkley (no more of this AJ trash please :P)

[ATCO1962]

Adam, baby, you're probably going to have to grow yourself a thicker skin because, reading between the lines, you're a bit sensitive about certain things e.g. the use of AJ. In a centre, if such matters bother you, I would say you're not cut out for this job.

While I admire your ambition to get into the world of ATC, you're running a bit ahead of yourself. The fact that you've failed the first round of testing is by no means an indicator of future failures. However, as some other posters have alluded to, you have to face the prospect that you can fail at any further milestone down the track and, if you're in the system, that may well disqualify you from the more demanding positions that you may want to be in charge of. People in the know will determine your future.

Be humble and self-deprecating. And let people call you AJ; it's good for your (future) ATC soul. I hope you succeed. It's a great career and one I've enjoyed for just about 30 years.

[AJArkley]

ATCO1962;
Thanks for the message. Believe me when I say my skin is thick; I have dealt with much crap over the years, and in the process of "man up, get on with it," you learn to deal with many a different thing. I am not for a moment saying I'm impervious to anything, but little winds me up. Personally, I would hope for the sake of an 2 keystrokes (Shift + A + J is 3, before anyone tells me I can't count), I would've thought people could stretch to Adam. In all honesty, I'm not sure where being called AJ helps with soul-strengthening or anything, but I'm sure I sold my soul to the Devil a long time ago.

I am also well aware of the possibilities of failings within ATC. A good friend of mine blitzed his first round of Selection, was put onto an Area course and found Basic and Intermediate fairly straightfoward. The pressure mounted at Advanced, as expected, but the poor guy failed his final exams due to some minor cockups at the start of us summative runs. He failed, and was thankfully recoursed, but it goes to show that even the most confident and comfortable people can be caught out by the system. I at least like to hope that I have a little say in where I end up in life, but at the end of the day, you can only achieve the best you can manage... Or something like that.

Cheers,
Adam

[AJArkley]

Yahoo,
If the elipsis there covers anthing to do with the topic of "money," I hope the guy being interviewed fails instantly. However, I'm one of the few brave/stupid enough to use my real name on most fora that I visit. I think the level of integrity that comes with being honest (What's that H word? Not seen it before...) allows me to feel secure when posting openly. I'm confident that should I make it to interview, I would be more than happy to back up something I'd said on here in front of an interviewer, based on a direct quote. I'd even go so far as to say I enjoy that type of conversation/debate/interrogation, call it what you will.

With regards to your comment about grown men and tears; no matter the burly or muscular exterior of Man, there is always a soft point on the inside, and often it's not difficult to find. In my experience, it doesn't take much to press the right buttons to make people angry or upset. I may be young, but trust me, I've seen it. In a pressureized interview situation; start honest, and remain honest. That way, your words can rarely be used against you, and it's more difficult (but not impossible) for an experienced interviewer to find a way in.

Edit: I suck at spelling, on occasion.

[AJArkley]

Yahoo,
As it sounds like you can testify, The Job is The Job. As long as I'm doing it, I could compromise the "where" and "how" sections.

Thanks,
Adam

[LEGAL TENDER]

Everyone seems a bit out of touch here.

The only courses that have been run regularly in the last 2 years or so are the Area ones.
Aerodrome and Approach have become very sparse. Someone more up to date will correct me if I am wrong, but there hasn't been an Aerodrome course for over 9 months now.

It looks like the future of NATS training as we know it (Hurn or CTC when it moves) is going to be Area Control.
The demand for Tower and Approach at the moment is very little.

[whitelighter]

@ Legal_Tender.

Next Aerodrome course at Hurn starts on July 5th. Course after that is also allocated and booked for October. Don't know after that date.

Its true the last Aero course to run before this one was last July (October if you count the re-course that started that month), but prior to that the full 4 courses started in the year.

To say that over the past 2 years its only Area courses that have run with regularity is a bit wide of the mark, its only been a very recent hiatus for two courses (accepting that October was only for re-courses).

@ Adam (see, some of us listen).

I very much wanted to do Aerodrome, and was very suprised that NATS allowed us to wait for our preference rather than being put on an earlier Area course. If you want it badly enough, and you give it absolutely everything then you can acheive it. The selection process requires 100% at every stage though, anything less and you wont make it...