June 3rd is here!

[Ando1Bar]

So, has it been the disaster people feared?

[aviation_enthus]

No it's my birthday! Why would that make it a disaster? :ok:

[UnderneathTheRadar]

SPECI YMMB 030000Z AUTO 36003KT 1300NDV // OVC002 10/09 Q1027
RMK RF00.0/000.0

CASA can declare the change a total success with no traffic delayed due to the new procedures.....

[capt787]

Happy birthday AE :ok:

[Ando1Bar]

:ok: to the guys and gals in Archer Tower for the way they're handling the transition today.

[Ted D Bear]

Been listening to a live feed, and they're doing a great job :ok:

Was hoping for some IFR departures to hear how they were going, but haven't heard any today yet ... WX up there must be alot better than down here!

[maverick22]

I'm struggling a bit with saying "sunshine coast" rather than "Maroochydore"

[YPJT]

One Jandakot controller when asked if he was looking fwd to tomorrow (03rd) was heard to reply "I think I'm getting a cold" :E

[Jabawocky]

Hey Mav........how long before we get used to calling it it Sunny Tower?

I believe the CASA folk are in attendance at YBAF and monitoring the transition, probably elsewhere too. From what I hear its a 30 day amnisty on confused pilots and ATC's.....which is a good idea.

I know one PPRUNER is IFRing out to YMOR this arv, so it will be interesting to see how he finds the new arrangement.

J:ok:

[FJ44]

It was a complete mess at Bankstown, the new SID of 29 is just stupid in high performance aircraft, but well done to the guys on ground freq, busy times ahead for them.
The delays with IFR departures and arrivals are going to cost a lot of time in the run up bays.
A real step backwards for IFR at these airports.

[Capt Fathom]

the new SID of 29 is just stupid in high performance aircraft

What's wrong with it?

[FJ44]

'Maintain 1500 till heading 290'
the old SID was the same heading and altitude, (3000' 290) and was never a problem under the old system, why is there this new restriction?

[Ted D Bear]

They'll be able to stop saying it on 1 July, when the BK 4 Departure comes into effect - because it is stipulated on the departure plate.

BTW - isn't it departing off runway 11 where this requirement comes into play? ... (Looks suspiciously like the missed approach on the 11C RNAV approach.)

Hey, FJ44 - I wasn't flying and couldn't listen in on BK twr frequency today. Who were IFR departures making their departure call to (Tower or Departures?), at what stage of the SID were they making it, and in what format (full procedural style, as required by AIP, or the abbreviated 'radar environment' style of departure report)? Just curious, coz I haven't had to do it myself yet (and none of the docs or training materials explain this :ugh:) ...

Ted

[FJ44]

My appologies, of course it the 11 SID I'm talking about.
Departure report...
I've not seen or read any guideance on that either and must say the departure ahead of me didn't make one and either did I, just reported passing 2000' and got passed to departures.

[Ted D Bear]

the departure ahead of me didn't make one and either did I, just reported passing 2000' and got passed to departures


Hmmmm. Thought it might be like that ... They just need to amend AIP (and issue a NOTAM in the meantime) :ugh:

Ted

[muffman]

Full procedural, I imagine, but I heard about 4 or 5 variations on it today. I don't think the tower guys particularly care, but the AIP only offers one option for procedural control zones.

What about if the wind is from the South and you conduct the SID of 29? "Track 291 deg, at 500ft turn left heading 290" A literal interpretation might get nasty with any more than 2 degrees of drift.

[das Uber Soldat]

Are the bank runners getting a clearance to taxi from tango to the toll hanger?

Thats about what, 4 metres?

[AussieNick]

Legally, they'd have too.

And sadly i can see CASA been all over them if they don't....

[Dangly Bits]

Was the flat earth society wrong and it all went well?

Good work ASA.

Not that hard really was it?

[The SSK]

An old French proverb says that the weather on June 3rd determines the weather for the rest of the month.

Le temps qu'il fait le 3 juin, sera le temps de tout le mois

So how was it in Oz today?

[goldypilot]

All this and the fella's up here in the NT only had to worry about being able to joining Base yet we where all confused as to if you can join base INVIRTED.... any thoughts?????

[Jabawocky]

.....inverted is actually better :ok:

Gives you a better view of the runway, and as Dick would say that is where the risk is greatest! :}

[Jabawocky]

Dangly
Was the flat earth society wrong and it all went well?

Good work ASA.

Not that hard really was it?

Class D is not a big deal.....geeez we all live with its harsh requirements elsewheer :rolleyes:

Its just the imposition on ops compared to the old GAAP.

For me its better actually, one rule set. But there is a flip side...

[Ixixly]

Don't mean to sound rude to the guys mentioning the Departure procedures but the material put up by CASA made it pretty clear whats expected for Departure reports.

"VFR aircraft departing a Class D CTR are not required to provide departure reports when exiting the CTR into Class G airspace. All other flights require a departure report as per AIP. This procedure will apply at ALL Class D aerodromes."

Fairly simple no?

[Ando1Bar]

Out of YBAF on the SID we were passed to approach before we'd had the chance to try out a departure report.

[Dogimed]

Happy EOYFS?


<apologies to all that get that song stuck in their head>:}

[Jabawocky]

Ando, was that you in the Citation X? it would need to be passed to approach before it starts to roll! :uhoh: That thing hauls along :ok:

[das Uber Soldat]

The departure report out of a zone the size of bankstown is ridiculous.

I called the tower about it, they want it at 2 miles from BK. They also told me they dont want to hear it, they do absolutely nothing with it, however CASA requires it so we have to give it.

What a great and well thought out system, well done CASA. You have successfully changed nothing for VFR aircraft, and significantly slowed and complicated life for IFR aircraft at Bankstown.

Mission accomplished. :D

[Ando1Bar]

Ando, was that you in the Citation X? it would need to be passed to approach before it starts to roll! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif That thing hauls along http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

I wish. We were just a humble Beechcraft. Not even one with 520s attached.

[Jabawocky]

I have driven one of them.........they are underwellming indeed! :sad:

J:ok:

[ARFOR]

d.U.S
You have successfully changed nothing for VFR aircraft,
hmmm, lets see how a weekend VFR or SVFR day goes :hmm:

The ATCO's will be applying the rules as given to them. Poor devils :(

[Howard Hughes]

Joins on base and a 3 mile final are allowed, but not recommended by CASA!:eek:

Huh? Are CASA not responsible for regulating safety in aviation, why approve something if you are not willing to recommend it (ie: consider it unsafe)!:rolleyes:

Also does anyone else have a problem with varying circuit heights? I fly a relatively high performance aircraft, where the visibilty down is almost non existant, it makes seeing aircraft who are conducting a circuit at a lower altitude impossible. This is why I always conduct a straight in approach where possible!

Does anyone who makes up these rules actually fly?

[Jabawocky]

Have to agree HH....:ok:

[Ted D Bear]

Don't mean to sound rude to the guys mentioning the Departure procedures but the material put up by CASA made it pretty clear whats expected for Departure reports.

"VFR aircraft departing a Class D CTR are not required to provide departure reports when exiting the CTR into Class G airspace. All other flights require a departure report as per AIP. This procedure will apply at ALL Class D aerodromes."

Fairly simple no?


No. Not simple.

Does an IFR aircraft on a VFR Departure make a departure report??? If you say "yes" because it is still an IFR aircraft even though operating VFR, does that also mean that IFR aircraft on VFR Departures don't need to comply with all the requirements in ERSA which are expressed to apply to "VFR aircraft" (like departing the zone by extending one of the legs of the circuit)??? This should be consistently and clearly documented in AIP (not just in an 'elearning tutorial', which has no legal status at all - although the one they put together doesn't discuss this at all anyway). :ugh:

How do you make the departure call and to whom do you make it if you're in a high performance IFR aircraft on a SID and have to call Departues before you've departed (in the sense required by AIP - over or abeam the airport, or on track with an allowance made in terms of time since you were over or abeam)?

The departure report out of a zone the size of bankstown is ridiculous.

Spot on, Das Uber Soldat!

And another question: when do you change frequency? AIP requires all aircraft to remain on tower until instructed to change, yet as far as I know (stand to be corrected) only IFR aircraft on the SID are being given instructions to change. (I don't have a problem with still doing it the old way - ie change without being instructed. In fact, I reckon it makes a lot of sense to avoid frequency congestion. That used to be mandated by AIP, but isn't anymore :ugh:)

A big :D to all the ATCs for making this as painless as possible - but the documents shouldn't be as unclear as they are and the information and training could've been better and clearer. I'm also in favour of standardising Class D procedures across all Class D zones - but let's standardise clear and sensible procedures!

Ted

PS And we'll have had three different versions of the SIDs at the former GAAP airports over the course of a month, because of several attempts to 'fix' the old one which didn't really need fixing at all :rolleyes:

[Ando1Bar]

Ted,

Advice from the YBAF tower manager on Monday is yes, a departure report for IFR on a VFR departure. They will then approve your frequency change.

If you are handed over to approach/departures on a SID prior to giving a departure report, give them the airborne report (assuming you are departing from one of the former GAAPs into a radar environment).

For a pure VFR flight, no departure report and no need to advise/ask for the frequency change.

Regarding the number of SID changes, apparently it is 'illegal' (for lack of a better word) to assign you a heading when entering uncontrolled airspace. This is why the headings/heights they've been giving out have taken the punters straight in to CTA. They can't change the SID until the latest one has been active for 28 days. But heck, this is just a simple pilot talking, maybe one of the ATC folk can set me straight or offer a better explanation.

[Ted D Bear]

Thanks, Ando1Bar. That all makes sense. (Haven't tried a VFR Departure here yet - the weather here has been such utter crap!) Why couldn't all the material make this clear? And why can't AIP and ERSA reflect what the guys on the ground and in the air are actually doing?

Ted

[peuce]

... because of several attempts to 'fix' the old one which didn't really need fixing at all

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, this appears to be the activity of choice for CASA at the moment :(

[Ted D Bear]

the activity of choice for CASA
With ever more bizarre consequences: we now have a SID at BK which requires pilots to ensure their own terrain clearance in the initial turn (even though that's what SIDs are supposed to be designed to do) :rolleyes:

[Ando1Bar]

I am aware that the ATC folk in one Capital City are submitting an incident report to the ATSB on the whole process - the submission is lengthy with over 100 items that have been missed by the apparently rushed and closed door approach to these changes. What CASA will do with the eventual ATSB findings / recommendations? Well, you can probably guess.

What will they do? Employ more people and promote existing team members into management roles in an effort to protect jobs for the boys and further empire build, all under the guise of a safety project. Wasn't that why we went to Class D in the first place? They'll all be out of work unless a new project comes up.:*

[ReverseFlight]

As for MB today, the new Class D Departure Report went something like this ...


Tower: "XXX, report 3 miles"

XXX: "Tower, XXX is 3 miles"

Tower: "XXX, frequency change approved"

XXX: "Thanks !"


:ok:

[Swine Facipic]

YMMB - listening watch has become standup comedy !!!!!!!

everyone is goofing up radio calls ... it is just amazing to hear.

[Nautilus Blue]

What CASA will do with the eventual ATSB findings / recommendations?

What findings? ATSB SOP for investigating CASA and ASA is to pass the report to them for comment, CASA/ASA says 'we've looked into it and there is no problem', ATSB says 'OK then', end of story.

[multi_engined]

I enjoyed being able to join the base leg of the circuit :ok:

[goldypilot]

ok i tryed the invirted base thing and it was not the easiest thing to do in a baron. i might try an extra 300next time i think.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Happy EOYFS?


<apologies to all that get that song stuck in their head

Thanks so much for that!!!

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