V Australia challenged by AFAP for CR FO pay

[Packvalve]

News from AFAP a couple of days ago claims that the CR FO's are seeking clarification regarding the current award which amounts to around $88,895 (currently payed around $60,000) based on the definition of the "Air Pilots Award 2010" which states that;"

"first officer means a pilot who is appointed as first officer by the employer and who currently is licensed by CASA to act as second or third in command of an aircraft requiring two or more pilots"

I would expect it would be very difficult for any arbitrator at a tribunal to disagree with this ruling!

http://www.airc.gov.au/awardmod/awards/MA000046.pdf

[Capt_SNAFU]

Get ready for the new rank of Second Officer.

[Keg]

The other possible angle is that they're not a 'first officer' per se, they're a 'cruise first officer' which is an all together different type of rank and the award is silent about how they're to be paid. :{

[neville_nobody]

The other possible angle is that they're not a 'first officer' per se, they're a 'cruise first officer' which is an all together different type of rank and the award is silent about how they're to be paid.

However they still fall into the definition in the award, the job title is irrelevant.

is licensed by CASA to act as second or third in command of an aircraft requiring two or more pilots

Could be some expensive backpay coming Voz's way.

[rescue 1]

Could be some expensive backpay coming Voz's way

Given VA's profitability or should I say lack of, I'm not sure they can afford it??

[Grey Nomad]

I doubt VA will be around in 6 months time and the AFAP is wasting its' money
pursuing the argument on behalf of a few disgruntled CRFO's. Perhaps you guys should have taken union advice before you signed your individual agreements on crap conditions.

[The Green Goblin]

I highly doubt they won't be around in a years time. They may be called something different but they will still be there and expanding and entering into new markets offering a fresh product that the incumbents with their excess baggage can't compete with. People said VB wouldn't last six months too.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Relax everyone!....... the feds are onto it.
VA are about to bombarded with a volley of "stern" letters! :}:}:}

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[KRUSTY 34]

Exactly GG.

All VA need now is for QF to fall over and presto! :ok:

[ozangel]

For what it's worth, I hope they're still here in a year - after a decade slugging my guts out at four airlines, redundancies, 60hour weeks (inc 20 hour duties) for $24,000pa, management fear campaigns, $55,000 in flying training down the drain for a medical issue that 'arose' weeks after completion, (and with respect to the stalwarts, I know much of this is nothing new) - it'd sure be nice to try out a flatbed on a long haul flight at staff rates.

On the other hand, having recently stopped flying - for the sake of my mortgage (my other half flies for VB) - there's an element of hope that they'll remove the infected limb - or come up with a cure 'yesterday'!

My family seriously regard me as 'not of sound mind' for 'missing' the industry. (I pass it off as alcoholism, as at least they can maintain some hope in that there's a 12 step program for that).

[tiptoeturkey]

WHEN I SEE THE LETTERS


AFAP


I think those people are ######.
God bless them (not the afap), sadly another loss for the claiments. :sad:

[psycho joe]

Relax everyone!....... the feds are onto it.
VA are about to bombarded with a volley of "stern" letters

That would be taking things a bit too far. If they write stern letters then they may have to back them up.

I think VA are in for a stern frowning. But not too stern, and only behind closed doors, we don't want to offend any management types.

[Mr.Buzzy]

For sure!
When I think of the feds flexing muscle these days I'm reminded of that Sorbent dunny paper add, you know the one with those cuddly, wrinkly, toothless little puppies gnawing at one another but not managing to tear the dunny paper!

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[psycho joe]

As much as i wish that cruise F/O's were on better employment conditions, I can't help but feel that they're being used as unwitting pawns by an aging, dying organisation desperately trying to display a shred of legitimacy & virility in a desperate attempt to maintain their dwindling constituency. It's a big gamble; AFAP's loss will be coup de tat for VIPA. And then who will the AFAP represent? I can see Tiger pilots eventually uniting under their own representation. Then who? Reminds me of a song.


Hello AFAP my old friend.
You were useless to the end.
Whilst you were off away sleeping.
A brand new union was breeding.
And few die-hard disputers' were your only friends...right to the end.

You deserve the sound...of silence.

And so now you walk alone.
And soon you'll be bloody gone.
If it's the last thing we do.
The way you've treated us is how we'll treat you.
With indifference and disdain...the bloody same.

The sound of silence...

[Toruk Macto]

Is there another way to get a decent job than what appears to be the current practice of signing up to anything quickly so as not to miss out and then winge/complain to a union or pilot association about what a crap deal it is and blame everyone for not helping to fix it.
How do people expect to be taken seriously !

[Trimmed_Flaps]

Im told that some CFO's were misled into believing they would have career progression within V or VB.

Recently a few have been told the bad news......

With no prospect of promotion this is their only shot at a payrise without leaving the group. :ouch:

Must be a happy workplace.

[SilverSleuth]

Im told that some CFO's were misled into believing they would have career progression within V or VB.

Recently a few have been told the bad news......

With no prospect of promotion this is their only shot at a payrise without leaving the group.

This is true in some parts. V Australia CFO's have been told they will NOT progress as V Australia FO's. They must go to VB as Fo's to gain experience to meet the requirements for upgrades. Several have just had interviews with VB for internal transfer to Vb but failed the interview process and will not be offered FO positions. So now are in a very tough place. No upgrade oportunities and no VB movement. On the other side, ALL who signed with VA knew they were individual contracts for the positions only that they excepted (much like the japan contracts). There is NO obligation for the company to promote at all. Something to think long and hard about before signing I would think....

[Angle of Attack]

It was well known within the industry that these cruise F/O positions were pathetic, I find it funny they are complaining now that they realise their pay is crap and no chance of real progression? Like Deers with no eyes...

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

When many of these folks took their jobs it was the best thing going at the time. The trick I suppose is to be able to look back and realise that. The second trick would be to remember that you can always leave (return of service requirements need to be considered when you accept the position).

There's nothing wrong with having a bit of a whinge about conditions even if you did sign up for them, so long as you're trying to work with the system or better your lot.

FRQ CB

[Capt OverUnder]

From what I hear VIPA (V_AIPA!) will save the day & sort out the mess!

[neville_nobody]

From what I hear VIPA (V_AIPA!) will save the day & sort out the mess!

By doing what exactly?

[j3pipercub]

I'm with AoA on this one.... They knew what they were in for and were all quick to jump in to fly a big shiny silver jet, or more specifically, watch someone else fly said jet.

IF they aren't happy with their lot, perhaps they should look in the mirror...

j3

edited to add: I know of quite a few very very happy CRZFO's, well I'm assuming by the photo's on facebook with them surrounded by stunners:E...you know who you are...

[lemel]

I know that they signed up for the cfo positions and they knew the terms and conditions, but really lets face the fact that they dont really have much of an option anywhere else (btw I am not a cfo).

T's & C's have been erroded throughout the country. If people dont join with Voz, then it would have been Tiger, J* or VB. The only place that pays well is QF and they aren't recruiting and the upgrade times there are way too long. I personally dont want to be 45-50 yrs old when I make captain and only then start to earn big bucks. On second thoughts, VB isnt that bad (I think they pay about 10% less then QF on the 73, although I could be wrong).

Now we have the J* cadetship and there are going to be people lining up to get a chance to pay through their noses to get a chance to fly for an airline and earn around 45K per annum after they take out the salary sacrifice for their training (this is as a junior FO).

What we need is for the Ts & Cs to keep dropping. This will hopefully discourage people from learning to fly, pilot numbers will end up being low and carriers will need to increase their Ts & Cs to retain crew. But I think all of us reading this know that this day will never come.

This industry breaks my heart.

[UAL Furlough]

I don't know how many people who post here actually work for Vaustralia, but I would guess it isn't a lot. I do and I can set some facts straight.

Yes, we all signed an individual contract that was crap. I knew that going in but I simply didn't like the job I was in (Jetstar) and the conditions were very similar. The job at Vaustralia, however, was much much better.

It is not true that you cannot upgrade at Vaustralia. We currently have two F/O's upgrading to Captain and two Cruise F/O's upgrading to First officer. There are some requirements on it, you must have certain levels of experience, but it is pretty much that way in all airlines.

A large number of Cruise F/O's have recently been promoted to F/O at V.B. There is an opportunity to move across company lines for promotion.

Some Cruise F/O's have been turned down on their initial interview to move to F/O at V.B. You never know why this happens, but there isn't always a fit.

It is true that some promises were probably made to the initial hire of Cruise F/O's to get them to sign up and then those promises were not upheld. This has caused a considerable decrease in morale amongst those cruisers and you can't blame them for that. Unfortunately, they are probably going to have to vote with their feet in order to make it better.

Start up airlines by nature must start with lower pay, but quite often the pay gaps are quickly closed. If it doesn't the pilots will take their experience and move on (see Emirates recent A-380 order and expansion notice).

VIPA will have a big impact on Vaustralia along with cooperation from AIPA. No matter what AFAP says on these forums, they have no interest in unifiying the pilot group, unless that unification means under their umbrella. They refuse to work with AIPA, I have seen it with my own eyes. They are becoming irrelevant. They lost the Jetstar pilots and they will lose the Virgin pilots, mark my word on that.

Lastly, life is fantastic at Vaustralia. Great people, great airplane, good flying, plenty of time off....pay and benefits need work. So don't write us off as dead yet!

[Capt OverUnder]

A bit ironic dont you think UAL Furlough for AIPA (Qantas Group) through VIPA (V_AIPA!) to be seen to represent best interests of VAustralia pilots!!!!!!!!!!!!! (competing and opposing companies)...... Doesnt seem logical to me!

[KABOY]

Start up airlines by nature must start with lower pay, but quite often the pay gaps are quickly closed. If it doesn't the pilots will take their experience and move on (see Emirates recent A-380 order and expansion notice).

Please don't delude yourself, start up airlines will pay the market rate to attract candidates. If positions are fully subscribed the conditions will remain this way. I haven't seen significant increases in any employment terms for the last 2 years and don't expect them to improve significantly soon. Emirates are cherry picking staff while a lot of airlines are in a sad state, the staff over there are warning people to stay away as you have no bargaining power over the contracts. Doing this may help their position, but people accepting these conditions are doing exactly the same as what is happening at VOZ, undermining the market for experience.

Why do you place so much hope in AIPA, Jetstar have improved their conditions by remaining independent of AIPA, placing so much faith in one organisation will only lead to disappointment.

[UAL Furlough]

Well, the companies may be competing, but the pilots aren't!

As a member of ALPA and a United pilot, we always looked forward to Delta, or American, or any other company topping our contract....it simply meant we had a higher base to start from.

I believe that AIPA understands that their fortunes go with our fortunes and they will try as they can to help us improve our conditions. Not so sure AFAP has the same vested interest in us.

So yes, I believe that AUS ALPA and a combination of all pilots in Australia working together will lead to the best outcome. Not an easy task and one that AFAP will not be a part of.

I'm not sure where the information is coming from, but AIPA now represents the majority of Jetstar pilots. AIPA is firmly committed to consolidating the pilots in Australia. Tough task, but at least they are trying....can't say the same for AFAP.

[slice]

AIPA understands that their fortunes go with our fortunes

bwahahahahahah!!!!!:} You can't be serious!!

An oxymoron here sport - all pilots in Australia working together
& one that AFAP will not be a part of:confused:

[Lawrie Cox]

Hey there UAL or Gidday Bill.

Pleased to see you enjoying yourself at V Aus.

Please stick to some facts rather than the spin about AFAP coming from those with an agenda to be in a body controlled by Qantas Pilots for the Qantas Pilots future.

AFAP has committed and stated here and in other places more relevant, the fact that we support a unified pilot body and no not under our umbrella as is being spun. The contrary is the fact and what causes us the distrust is the Qantas pilots have started out saying they only want an airline pilot association. When we knocked them back because it does nothing for regional, GA, Flight Instruction or Helicopters alternatives were put but it still comes back to the numbers and whether QANTAS PILOTS have the majority say or more importantly to them the control.

THAT with respect is the real problem.

Qantas pilots are funding and supporting VIPA it would appear and that is purely to protect themselves from competition. That is their job to ensure that Qantas remains competitive from start ups like V Aus and Jetstar International. Hardly shows the independence claims of VIPA for its reason of formation.

In Jetstar you have forgotten that we had individual contracts and an agreement that almost got over the line without any union involvement. We were attacked when we engaged and supported Jetstar pilots getting an improved deal. We never said it was perfect but the majority of Jetstar pilots voted it up. It is easy to sit outside the fence and throw stones but at some point you need to face reality that some pilots will disagree with the rose tinted glasses view of the world being espoused.

Far from losing Jetstar pilots our basic numbers are much the same as they were a few years back, whilst many Jetstar pilots did join AIPA for a while quite a number of those have since worked out that they cannot deliver the promises made. Many court cases have been run by AIPA (around 26) but no wins as such. I also noted that no one seems to ask AIPA what exactly they offered Qantas management to secure all the 787 flying to detriment of the Jetstar pilot group or why AIPA continue to fight the Right of Return case to protect Q pilots getting commands ahead of Jetstar F/O’s. Again understandable as this is their bread and butter it is all about protecting the Qantas mainline pilots.

You are right on one point thou Bill in that we (the Federation) do not have a vested interest in the fortunes of V Aus other than representing our members. Which is the way our body is structured to work the councils determine their industrial policy through the pilot representatives not dictated by a larger group with a vested interest of survival.

In your case the Federation pilots at V Aus have advocated and publicly put their position to the group regularly on their agenda for improvement. The policy does not get set by me or any staff member it is the pilots employed in V Aus that set it, your peers.

Finally Aus ALPA will only work when it is one pilot= one vote not a weighted vote to one particular group. Remember that is how US-ALPA works amongst others.

Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

[MaxHelixAngle]

AFAP has committed and stated here and in other places more relevant, the fact that we support a unified pilot body

and then three references to Qantas pilots, they are:
funding and supporting VIPA it would appear and that is purely to protect themselves from competition
[making offers to] Qantas management to secure all the 787 flying to detriment of the Jetstar pilot group, and
it is all about protecting the Qantas mainline pilots


Good Job Lawrie, just as unified as you were in-front of FWA on the right-of-return case. Spin all you like, the writing is on the wall. How about publishing AFAP vs. AIPA membership statistics for Jetstar?

[UAL Furlough]

Hey Mr. Cox,

You can spin it however you like, but we both know exactly what went down at Jetstar, and it wasn't a great showing by you and the AFAP.

I was in the room with you, I heard the vitriol concerning AIPA spew from your pie hole.

Oh, and don't call me Bill, we ain't friends!

[Vorsicht]

Qantas pilots are funding and supporting VIPA it would appear and that is purely to protect themselves from competition.

Mr Cox

That statement is false, AIPA is not funding VIPA and I challenge you to substantiate it with facts.

Given that you, as a spokesperson the AFAP, have made a statement of fact, without actually knowing that it is a fact or not, clearly substantiates a lot of the concerns in the community about the integrity of your organisation.

It also begs the question, what else have you tried to pass off as fact, that is merely spin, or worse, total fabrication, to try and further the interest of the AFAP, rather than its members.

V

[Don Diego]

Just the same as them (AIPA) not "funding" the failed EPG a few years ago eh Vorsicht??? :ugh:

[Vorsicht]

Just the same as them (AIPA) not "funding" the failed EPG a few years ago eh Vorsicht???

No, not the same as anything. No funding. End of story.

I say again, if you have evidence to the contrary, give us the facts and substantiate your position; or are you taking the same approach as the AFAP, which is never let facts get in the way of trying to protect your livelihood.

V

[rmcdonal]

Cursed: I don't understand what it is you wanted the AFAP to do with Virgin Blue for the V Aus pilots? V Aus as far as I can make out is a brand new company and at the time the terms and contracts where written had no pilots and therefore no Union to represent them. If they did not want the job on that contract they did not have to join, there were a LOT of jobs going at that same time, they picked V Aus.

[Don Diego]

Vorsicht,

Find out what the word means and then we shall discuss it more.:=

[Vorsicht]

From Dictionary.com

fund   [fuhnd] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a supply of money or pecuniary resources, as for some purpose: a fund for his education; a retirement fund.
2.
supply; stock: a fund of knowledge; a fund of jewels.
3.
funds, money immediately available; pecuniary resources: to be momentarily without funds.
4.
an organization created to administer or manage a fund, as of money invested or contributed for some special purpose.
–verb (used with object)
5.
to provide a fund to pay the interest or principal of (a debt).
6.
to convert (general outstanding debts) into a more or less permanent debt, represented by interest-bearing bonds.
7.
to allocate or provide funds for (a program, project, etc.).

and for further clarification, and my own edification

pe·cu·ni·ar·y   [pi-kyoo-nee-er-ee] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
of or pertaining to money: pecuniary difficulties.
2.
consisting of or given or exacted in money or monetary payments: pecuniary tributes.
3.
(of a crime, violation, etc.) involving a money penalty or fine.


OK, now that I have bought myself up to the required standard of education, let's hear what you've got.

V

[campdoag]

Mate I'm soooo sick of people like yourself making statements like

"If they did not want the job on that contract they did not have to join"

What you say is true, yet things are not always that simple for everyone!!! Especially in our very isolated industry!!!

WHAT THE F@RK IS WRONG with people currently employed fighting to improve their current working conditions, this is generally what people call progress.

If im wrong please help me to understand, because im clearly not smart enough to work it out for myself.

At least our colleagues in the states have a spine, unlike yourself.
Spirit Airlines pilots strike entering 2nd day - Forbes.com (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2010/06/13/general-industrials-us-spirit-airlines-pilots_7683780.html)

I'm am not an employee of any of the virgin group airlines, I'm just damn sick of our segregated union structure..

It's time for some unity

[rmcdonal]

campdoag: I was looking for a Job at the same time those SO positions came out. I know exactly how hard it was to get a job back then as I can count the number of applications I sent out and compare it to the number of replies I received. If these pilots decided that V Aus was the way to go then good on them, I got that call and said no after they told me how little the pay would be. Sure it would be great for EVERYONE if they got a pay rise, but this just seems like they are trying to say "because my title has FO in it I must be an FO", if we use that call then the "deputy -Prime Minister-" must be the "-Prime Minister-" because it's in his title. Cruise FO is just a fancy way of saying SO.

Sure unity would be great, but every time anyone talks about it all we hear is 89 rhetoric, how great Ansett was, and why AIPA is the best for every one. This is all great History that should not be forgotten, but we are 20 years in the future and need to move on.
AFAP is the name of a Pilot union, it is made up of pilot members, it doesn't have its own opinion (sure its staff may), it does what is is told by its members, its members pay fees that pay lawyers that offer advise to keep pilots out of trouble. It doesn't say 'you must sign this agreement or else' it sais "our professional advise is to sign as that is the best option we can come up with using our resources". Remember that negotiations are done using your elected pilots, AFAP provide legal support and advice.

As far as my spine goes, it keeps my head held high when people ask me what I am doing for pilots in my company :ok:.

[Packvalve]

Regardless,
It seems that AFAP can forsee that there may have been an obvious legal breach of the Fair Work Act regarding (back?)pay, and are actively pursuing it while the three V Australia VIPA Reps are not!!

[Red Jet]

It seems that AFAP can forsee that there may have been an obvious legal breach of the Fair Work Act regarding (back?)pay, and are actively pursuing it while the three V Australia VIPA Reps are not!! That could be because the VIPA representatives are receiving sound legal advice on the matter.

You have to pick your battles.

I am the first to support the CFO's in their ongoing endeavor to improve their T&C's and VIPA has a clear strategy in place to achieve just that.

Semantics is not the surest way to sway a judge (or deputy commissioner), though. Barking up the wrong tree could prove to be a very costly exercise. Please try to explain in layman's terms the difference between the job description of a SO with QANTAS and a CFO with VA?

Yeah, I thought you might struggle with that one.

The job TITLE is of little significance and just because a "Cruise First Officer" INCLUDE the words "First Officer" in his title, it is unlikely to sway an arbitrator well versed in labor law.

The fact is, that unless you have a big MBA payout coming your way, VIPA remain the best alternative for flight crew working for VB/VA/PB. The VIPA elected representatives are dedicated individuals doing the very same job as the people they are representing and have not (yet) developed the "fat cat syndrome". They are receiving the very best legal advice from the recently hired labor lawyer, and their colleagues at AIPA. There is absolutely NO dichotomy between the interests of VB pilots and VA pilots. We all want the same thing - succinct career progression and ability to move between the companies, where the VA CFO's desire to advance into a primary crew role is just as important as a VB captains desire to progress into a WORTHWHILE promotion into wide-body international operation. We now have a golden opportunity to enter into EBA negotiations with a new boss who have a demonstrated affinity with - and, an interest in engaging the pilots - and the best road ahead is most probably not over semantics! Pause for a second and look at the bigger picture!

On that topic - Lawrie Cox, you have in this forum publicly made the assertion that QANTAS pilots are funding VIPA. To preserve your integrity, please substantiate your allegation or retract it forthwith!

[Don Diego]

Vorsicht,

2 is on the money, need we continue??:D

[Vorsicht]

Don Diego

Clearly if you are not prepared to validate your comments, one can only conclude that you, along with Laurie Cox, are making false statements with the specific intent of trying to create misinformation about VIPA.

Whatever the outcome, and irrespective of past issues, VIPA and AIPA have made a huge step forward in initiating co-operation between two of Australia's three major pilot unions. This collaborative approach has not been possible previously due to the AFAP's desire to destabilize any organisation it deems to be a threat to its existence. What this has meant is that the AFAP has been more focussed on it's own survival than the interests of it's members.

Ironically, had it been more focussed on it's members, VIPA would never have been given the oxygen it needed to get started. Unfortunately for the AFAP, VIPA is now here to stay due to the large amount of dissaffection amongst former AFAP members, who have chosen to move to VIPA.

AIPA has recognised that the executive of VIPA is looking to the future, rather than dwelling in the past and has chosen to publicly support (rather than financially support) an organisation that is focussed on the betterment of our industry, as opposed to an organisation that has demonstrated that it does not represent the views of the majority, but rather will take a position seemingly with the sole intent of undermining another union.

The AFAP had 12 clear months where it was the only union available to support V Australia pilots. During that period it did almost nothing to assist V Australia pilots, despite allegedly having all the experience and resources to do so. Instead, they squandered tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars trying to prevent VIPA's registration.

It is only since VIPA has attacked the company on such issues as allowances, promotion and contract compliance that the AFAP has belatedly made a pitiful attempt to address CRFO salaries, based on the fanciful idea that they are in fact F/O's.

Had the AFAP ignored VIPA and directed their resources toward demonstrating an interest in helping the pilot group they would have secured the support of a vast majority of V pilots. Instead, many pilots who would have been happy to join the AFAP were left asking, 'why aren't they doing anything' and chose VIPA, with a view to trying to change the dynamics of pilot representation that has existed in Australia for the last 20 years.

Regardless of any of Lawrie Cox's spin, had the Feds not been asleep at the wheel for the last 10 years, they would now hold an insurmountable position as the dominant union in Australia. Instead, they are fighting for relevance in the airline industry as pilots from Jetstar, VB and V are leaving in droves to join a union that at least holds some hope of a better future, rather than continue with a group that lets the spectre of the past dominate their ideology.

V

[hunglo]

Both unions are lacking in their support of VA pilots. It has been my observation that many (not all) on the various PRCs use it as a leap into management rather to better the terms and conditions of their members, screwing over their fellow pilots in the process. I imagine UAL Furlough has some first hand experience of that which probably explains why he left Jet*

As a VA pilot, I can not see that VIPA has done anything in support of its member’s terms and conditions at VA, despite what they have said here. Facebook and twitter accounts aren’t progress.

Vorsicht exactly what has VIPA done to advance the “First Officers (cruise relief)” terms and conditions. You’ll notice I referred to the “First Officers (cruise relief)” in the same terminology as their contracts. It’s a bit different than just having the term FO in the title. Fanciful? who the hell cares as long as it gets a result. As far as the Flight crew are aware at VA only the AFAP has started to push for even the current award conditions (pathetic as they are).

Moreover it would appear that VIPA was instrumental in developing an upgrade criteria for “First Officers (cruise relief)” which excluded experience gained at VA, Thus forcing 97% to have to leave in order to get an upgrade. This little gem didn’t surface until 8 months after flying operations had begun, coupled with the obvious evidence that VB is knocking back everyone over 40 (there is one exception but given the relationship with Brett it is obvious as to why), is the cause of a rapid drop in morale. It would appear that this situation has been caused by the same group purporting to represent our interests.

While the “First Officers (cruise relief)” have been unfairly dealt with, the Senior First Officers have been truly F@#ked over. Other than a token upgrade here and there all the command positions are going to VB pilots without a reciprocal ability of VA SFO going to VB. They are trapped with the only option of leaving at this point.

It would appear that VIPAs views on progression and terms and conditions is such that they only support only those that advance the cause of a very small group within VA at the expense of every one else.

UAL Furlough speaks from a position of being one of few promoted vertically within VA. As a result he probably has a rosier view than the rest. Of all promotions to date, current VA pilots have made up less than 20%. There is a deed that entitles 4/7th of command positions to VB pilots. Obviously that needs to be honoured until it expires so why are the VB FOs comming?

The AFAP has been dragged, pushed and bullied into doing something. At least this is a start. None of the unions has shined, but at least there is a start. As far as I can see VIPA is just standing back and throwing stones at the AFAP. It is sickening to see the haste with which many here rush to cut down any attempt to better terms and conditions, particularly when they are a union supposedly representing us.

[slice]

hunglo - there are VB Fos going to VA ??? I may be mistaken but I would surprised if that many were jumping. What sort numbers are we talking about ?

[Capt OverUnder]

So AFAP has served a log of claims on VA , VIPA apparently consulted but not ready! Is it that VIPA are too busy compiling anti AFAP spin like some threads on this topic? Actions are louder than Krudd spin doctoring!

[Grey Nomad]

Moreover it would appear that VIPA was instrumental in developing an upgrade criteria for “First Officers (cruise relief)” which excluded experience gained at VA, Thus forcing 97% to have to leave in order to get an upgrade. This little gem didn’t surface until 8 months after flying operations had begun, coupled with the obvious evidence that VB is knocking back everyone over 40 (there is one exception but given the relationship with Brett it is obvious as to why), is the cause of a rapid drop in morale. It would appear that this situation has been caused by the same group purporting to represent our interest


And you don't have an axe to grind!By the way hunglo how old are you?:yuk:
As a First Officer ( cruise relief ) could you please enlighten us what
piloting functions you actually perform on a standard sector.By the way
whingeing doesn't count.

[hunglo]

Grey Nomad is that all you got out of my post? That is sad. But to answer one of your questions I'm in the under 40 group (just). I've got a bit (ok a lot) of grey hair so I am worried.

After reading your post it has become obvious to me that VA can save even more money on crew salaries! Insead of using pilots for "First Officer (cruise relief)" let the cabin crew take their rest in the cockpit when the primary crew is resting. It will save 2 beds in the back and 2 CRFO salaries after all its not as though they will need to do any "piloting". I might even get a couple of hundred dollars of my bonus for this idea!

Slice, I believe there were 6 VB FOs that came across during the great VB GFC swindle and another 6 (2 may be PB) so far that have been appointed. It would appear that out of every 4-5 SFO positions only 1 has gone to an internal canditate (I understand only 4 in total met the criteria) the rest to VB (maybe a couple of PB captains comming across as SFOs). There is an oversupply of VB/PB applicants for every position available.

[VOz_HR_Sheik]

VIPA was instrumental in developing an upgrade criteria

Incorrect. The upgrade policy was written by the GMFO and the LOM, neither of whom may be union members. The criteria was based on the their vast training experience on the 777. There was no need to consult a union. Nor perhaps the training department.

“First Officers (cruise relief)” which excluded experience gained at VA, Thus forcing 97% to have to leave in order to get an upgrade.

True. However, unlike the SFO's, they may apply to VB after 2 years. If successfull they will earn more than the VA SFO's.

If unsuccessfull, they are welcome to apply for promotion within VA for the Flight Manager role.

Senior First Officers have been truly F@#ked over

Correct. We dont invisage this situation improving in the near future. ALL SFO's are eligible to apply for promotions once succesfully employed with Emirates, Qatar etc or be thankfull they are back in Australia.

All pilots have been invited to a free pat on the head and a good condescending from the Promotion and Development Committee. At the conclusion of this meeting it is envisaged we will explain this years STI bonus. Reactions will be noted against merit.

The job TITLE is of little significance

All new joiners will sign a contract with the title 'second officer'.

there are VB Fos going to VA ???

Yes. As are VB captains. How long they stay is debatable.

We look forward to your application.

:)

[Packvalve]

"Semantics is not the surest way to sway a judge (or deputy commissioner), though. Barking up the wrong tree could prove to be a very costly exercise. Please try to explain in layman's terms the difference between the job description of a SO with QANTAS and a CFO with VA?" Red Jet

Bottom line is that there is no difference! and to use that same argument would suggest that a VA CRFO's salary should be equivalent to a QF SO!

I would agree that the exact job title on its own doesn't justify in law an immediate inclusion within the award, and I can clearly see why this would be considered as "Semantics".

However, I have been informed that the arbitrator mostly considers in thier decision "the definition of the position as described by Fair Work Australia".

Remember:

"first officer means a pilot who is appointed as first officer by the employer and who currently is licensed by CASA to act as second or third in command of an aircraft requiring two or more pilots"

And:

The individual contracts clearly have the words "first officer".

I would be very interested to hear about Red Jet or VIPA's legal advice regarding this matter - if the've had any at all?

[Grey Nomad]

Hunglo,

I actually surmised a few things from your post. One being that you are paranoid in believing that the unions have any input in the promotion policy of the VA management. Secondly if you honestly believe that VB have been discriminatory in their recruitment process in saying that they only employ CRFO's that are under 40 yo then perhaps you should report them to FWA. The VA CRFO's that missed out could simply have had a bad interview,poor sim or broke some other interview etiquette i.e ( bagging your current employer and training department etc )
You obviously believe that you should be promoted vertically within VA.I imagine the company or insurance/safety departments may prefer to have more experienced pilots with jet time and minimise the risk.I am not saying that pilots without jet time can't be promoted and perform. Many precedents of this are evident throughout the world. It's not really your call. Perhaps if you have such an objection to the VB/PB F.O's joining VA you should volunteer your time and join the AFAP committee to negotiate the new EBA.
You better be quick though, as soon as you turn the big " Four O " VB may
not want you either!
I wish I had the chance to fly one of the big birds as I imagine many of the primary crews may prefer some of the more glamorous crew taking their rest up the front. Maybe you can bring up your cost saving proposal with the GMFO and he may boost your bonus a few tenths of a percent.:D

[Willie Nelson]

Even Jetstar got rid of the Cruise F/O position, partly because there were so few applicants and partly because there were so few sectors that required them.

While Jetstar had them there was no fixed base sims available for practice as allowed by Qantas and a lot of the guys that tried to upgrade had great difficulty, most made it on either the 330 or 320 eventually but at least one was told DCM.

[Vorsicht]

I am sorry to say you are seriously misinformed with regard to the influence either union has over conditions or policy at VA.

At present, every pilot is on an individual contract, therefore, the only person that can influence that is the individual, or an appointed representative. Regardless of being able to have a representative, the unions do not, at this stage, have any collective bargaining power when it comes to current contracts.

Until an EBA is in place, if you have a problem with your contract or a company policy, you have to get off your Ar*e and speak to your union, arrange an appointment with your management and get in a fight for what you want.

Accordingly, the company was not required to, nor did they attempt to, consult the unions about the upgrade policy. You are seriously delusional or misinformed if you think that the current policy is a product of collaboration with VIPA, and i would challenge you to substantiate your claims.

What appears to be consistent in this thread is that pro AFAP posters are happy to post hearsay as fact, in support of their position. Whilst it is clear that this is a rumour site, and nothing on it can be taken seriously, it would appear that you are trying to inflluence peoples choices based on misinformation.

If you are genuinely interested in improving things, i would suggest you talk to your union rep and get the facts. Or is it that you are one of the many fence sitters who prefer to sit back and criticize rather than get involved.

As far as the SFO's getting screwed, there is absolutely no evidence to support that. Everyone was well aware of the existence of the deed attached to the AFAP EBA that guarantees 4 in 7 of commands will go to VB pilots. As far as i can find out, commands are approximately in accordance with that deed, and MLO is ensuring that it is honored and nothing more. If you have a problem with the deed and the effect it is having on SFO's, I suggest you take that up with the group responsible for it, the AFAP.

As far as the apparently discriminatory selection of SFO's, out of seniority, for upgrade, well that is another matter, and one that will be addressed in the EBA. But until then, all current promotions are in accordance with your contract, which essentially means that the company can upgrade whoever they like. In case you have forgotten, you signed that contract.

Again, I would reiterate, if you are not happy with your current conditions, phone your union reps and ask what you can do to help.

Whilst it appear that from your ill informed position that VIPA are doing little, it may be worth noting that the recent change in position by the company on the combined EBA was a direct result of the VASC writing to John Borghetti. Having said that, you are also probably totally ignorant of the amount of work that is required in preparing a Log of Claims for an EBA negotiation. Sure VIPA could take the easy road and pick the low hanging fruit by piggybacking on the VB eba, but as i understand it, they are developing a greenfields document that is far more comprehensive than the VB EBA.

So feel free to sit back and criticize, after all it is the hallmark of the Australian pilot, and sleep well knowing that at least some of your colleagues, both AFAP and VIPA, are giving up huge chunks of their time off trying to improve things for everyone.


V

[MAX]

Everyone was well aware of the existence of the deed attached to the AFAP EBA that guarantees 4 in 7 of commands will go to VB pilots

Actually, they neglected to mention that little snippet at my interview.

So please don't include me in your 'everyone'.

MAX
:cool:

[Vorsicht]

In that case, one can only marvel at your lack of due dilligence.

Wanna buy a bridge?

V

[MAX]

I dont have a chip over the issue as it doesnt affect me in the grand scheme.

Im just correcting your flannel.

But thanks for your nice comment.

I look forward to ignoring you at the pub.

MAX
:cool:

[hunglo]

VOz_HR_Sheik, with a name like that you would know that HR does not yet exist in VB/VA. People management is the go. You should also know that the GMFO and MLO (I've corrected the title for you) had no experience on the 777 before VA. The MLO still doesn't…….. Actually having thought about it, you may be correct, the upgrade criterion does reflect their vast experience in the 777!!

Vorsicht, I refer to the individuals representing VIPA at VA rather than the union. My bad for misleading the thread. From my perspective there is little difference as VIPA is them at VA. For those who have access to Virginetics ask the moderators to reinstall the posts on union membership from the VIPA reps that have been modified recently by them. That will give you a different perspective on what they are peddling. Are you paranoid if they really are out to get you? Their motivation for doing so is worth a healthy discussion.

As I read it the recent AFAP newsletter politely said that VIPA had not contributed anything to the log of claims. It’s a bit rich to claim credit for the VA agreement to separate EBAs as both the FAAA and the AFAP gave notice of taking the matter to the FWA. John Borghetti is aware of the morale issues (hence the engagement survey) and probably doesn’t see the point in antagonising his front line staff any further over a point that VA will lose at the FWA. I suppose piggybacking on the FAAA and AFAP is easier than actually doing something. Perhaps you can twitter that?

Like Max I was unaware of the deed. I had I know there was a bottle neck that would halt promotion at all levels I probably wouldn't have joined. I asked a couple of the early starters and they were not told either. Admittedly I didn’t look at the VB EBA to figure out my promotional prospects at VA. Any one got a copy of the PB contract? Who knows what gems that affect my future await discovery there!!

[UAL Furlough]

Sorry guys, but I find it hard to believe that anyone that interviewed for an SFO job at VA didn't know about the "deed". Most of my interview was spent discussing the "deed" and the effect it would have on my ability for promotion.

This "deed" was brought up by the GMFO, but I was already aware of it going in.

If you didn't know about it, and still took the job, then the fault of the results are all yours.

[Dehavillanddriver]

Hunglo,

And exactly what value does time on type bring to the decision as to whether or not you are worthy of a command (or Senior FO position) or are in fact a nong?

The guy you are referring to would have much more time just on the 737 than you would have total time, as well as significant managerial experience, so show some respect.

[hunglo]

Dehavillanddriver, Courtesy is given, Respect is earned.

In my view and that of many others at VA, the upgrade criteria reflect individuals agendas not a educated view of pilots abilities. Take what you are saying a couple of steps further - if experience operating a 777 within VA doesn’t count for anything why should operating a dinky 737 or Ejet for VB on domestic routes mean so much more?

While one of the gentlemen referred to appears to be a very nice guy, it is rare that one of the universal constants in aviation is broken - scum always floats to the top.

[Dubya]

Ladies.....

Sitting backseat on a 777 on 14 hour sectors does not compare to domestic ops in a 'dinky 737 or ejet'.......

if you come across to VB with attitude like that, you'll be my radio operator on every sector....

got it?

and there is nothing in those books to say the fo has to be given 50/50 share of the flying...it's at capt discretion.

Oh yeah, I will only hand over control once........and that's when I'm having my breakfast...

lose the attitude, ladies...............................

[KRUSTY 34]

Anthill, I've read the Deed and I have read the VA employment contract. There is a Legal responsibility for the company to honour the Deed. Morals have little to do with anything airline management factor into their decision making. After all the years in the game you should know that, and with respect to the other SFO's at VA, they should have realised that as well.

From what I understand the ranks of the VA SFO's are mostly filled with highly experienced and capable international Wide-body pilots. How do those pilots who have been "jumped" by the likes of UAL Furlough (no offence meant) feel about that? I mean, have the company explained to the more "senior" SFO's in VA the reasons for them being bypassed, due to the superior merit of the ones that have been promoted.

You see, it's all well and good to wax on lyrical about the virtues of merit. But who decides? Is the process transparent? If the abilities of the VA SFO's are to be believed, and personally I do believe, then why should there be a problem in giving the opportunity to qualify to the "first cab off the rank" after the 4/7ths of current VB pilots have been offered their go?

If UAL Furlough was in fact the most "senior" of the VA SFO's, then I stand corrected. If not my question remains?

[Red Jet]

Or don't we count?

I most sincerely hope we (SFO's) do, cause I am one of them as well.;)

I came across to VA for A/C 4 from the 737 VB fleet. Not because I was in the immediate firing line for redundancies, but because I thought a fleet change was a good idea as the Command upgrades came to a screeching halt in VB as a result of the GFC. Just another feather in your cap cap, if it all should turn to poo.......

The 4/7th rule for the first 7 aircraft was most certainly well known within the VB group and it WAS in the public domain as well, being an appendix to the VB EBA.

It is regrettable that some SFO's was not aware of this, and if their decision would have been made differently if they HAD been aware of it - I can understand the frustration they feel. I find it very hard to believe though, that the VA flight ops management would even entertain the idea of trying to cover it up during the recruitment process, but ultimately everyone has to take responsibility in exercising due diligence, while looking out for #1.

To the best of my knowledge - none of the VA SFO that came across from VB feel, that they have any "rights" to be considered for a 777 Command ahead of the very experienced guys that joined the group during VA's startup. I am obviously only speaking for myself here but have not heard any SFO's express a different sentiment during my time with VA.

VIPA (and as far as I understand the AFAP as well) are working at having the VA starting date recognised for upgrades. It is a very fine (and wiggly) line between upgrades made on merit and nepotism/camaraderie, and the Status Quo is untenable from the line pilots perspective. We will only change it through collective efforts though, and I want to say to those VA pilots that have not yet joined a union of their choice to get off your arse and get behind the push to better the deal for all of us. If you are still standing on the side line to see which union "wins" - you are wasting your time! Neither VIPA or AFAP are going away in a hurry and remember that there will only be ONE EBA for the flight crew, to which both unions will be respondents. If you don't join either, you don't really deserve to reap the benefit of the improvements that WILL come our way as a result of negotiations, and make no mistake - the improvements will be less, if our negotiating strength is reduced by having a sizable number of flight crew remaining unaffiliated with either union. This company will NEVER give you what you (reckon you) deserve - only what you negotiate. STAND UP AND BE COUNTED!!

[hunglo]

Dubya, Think about it, no one sits in the back seat for 14hrs.

The attitude you've shown in your post really proves my point and highlights your lack of understanding of long haul ops.

Except for some recent hires do you really think we are all 500hrs hires? But I do agree on one point, there is no comparison between what you do and VA ops. There is no reason to go to VB or PB except make room for people like you.

Which probably explains why VIPA with its roots in VB is happy to F@#K over current VA crew.

The only reason there is a problem within VA is because of VB Captains desire to be promoted into VA beyond the scope of the deed and VB FOs coming across outside the deed.

[GAFA]

What about the CFO coming to VB on the 737 who have had their 30 month 777 bond reduced to 24months (so they can join VB), plus they are getting a free 737 endorsement. While the current Ejet FO's who have done their time and paid for their endorsement have been told if they want to go to the 737 it will cost them another $50000.:mad:

It seems many at V have forgotten that without VB there wouldn't be a V:ugh:

[UAL Furlough]

Hey Krusty,

Vaustralia is filled with highly experienced First Officers, all of whom I have been honored to be associated with and all of whom deserve a chance at command on the B777.

As far as seniority goes, we have none at Vaustralia. Having said that, I was the oldest First Officer in the first class at V and my experience ranks right there with the other 3 in my class. I would be happy to fly with any of the other 3 as either their Captain, or their First Officer.

So in my case, I believe that experience, merit and seniority were satisified. Hope that clears it up a bit.

As a side note, we can compare to Jetstar, which has a strict seniority system, but management "manipulates" the command requirements to allow more junior "mates" to be promoted ahead of more senior "non" mates. At least Vaustralia is honest about this.

[Sand dune Sam]

UAL, dont take any notice of him..he's been trying to get into VB for years, all his mates have left REX for VB and JQ etc....anything negative about VA or VB he's right in there boots and all giving his expert opinion..to the contrary, any good thread about VA or VB he is conspicuous by his absence.:ok:

[VOz_HR_Sheik]

been "jumped" by the likes of UAL Furlough

UAL is possibly THE most senior SFO if we had a seniority system. A good operator, very experienced and a nice chap. There should be no grumblings from this particular promotion.

Subsequent promotions may involve 'jumping' by strict DOJ but since there is no seniority...

The 4/7th rule for the first 7 aircraft was most certainly well known within the VB group

One would hope so. It was especially well known by the the Captains who have transferred onto the 777.

What about the CFO coming to VB on the 737 who have had their 30 month 777 bond reduced to 24months (so they can join VB), plus they are getting a free 737 endorsement.

Incorrect. The company bond has been extended to account for the new type.

:)

[6100]

Careful your highness. Introducing facts into a Pprune discussion is a high risk strategy:D:ok:

[Trimmed_Flaps]

So with the recent announcement I guess this is all moot?

So, what career path for V-Oz SFO's now? One would guess they'll get in line for a command (on any fleet) when their time eventually comes up from the bottom of the VB DOJ list? Bet they are all stoked to have left their last jobs. :\

At least the CFO's had the opportunity to 'progress' to the 737.

Flaps

[captwawa]

Care to elaborate flaps?

Have an ejet slot but I ain't gunna pay for another endo to move within DJ again.

What was the latest announcement you speak of? Is there are link somewhere?

[Forward CofG]

Is this the news your talking about?



Virgin Blue to integrate long-haul airline

Australia's second-largest airline Virgin Blue plans to shake up its management structure as it seeks to double its share of the domestic business-class market and take on dominant player Qantas.

New chief executive John Borghetti said on Wednesday he planned to integrate Virgin Blue's long-haul offshoot V Australia into the main company under a new management structure.

He also unveiled plans to increase his senior executive team from six to eight under changes outlined in a memo to staff on Wednesday.

The changes by Borghetti, who was once in the running for the top job at Qantas, were part of a wider plan to increase competition with its rival in business travel and reposition Virgin Blue away from its roots as a budget airline.

Borghetti was also looking at cutting the carrier's premium economy class to put in full business-class seating as well as update the airline's cabins and uniforms, two airline sources said. He also wanted to double his airline's share of the business-class market to 20 percent, the sources added.

"The new CEO has a clear strategy of restructuring and repositioning Virgin Blue in the domestic context - however it will take at least six months to determine whether this approach is likely to be successful," Macquarie analyst Russell Shaw said in a recent note to clients.

Under the changes outlined in the memo, management of Virgin Blue and V Australia's operations would come under the same executive. Previously, both the airlines were managed separately.

The airline's commercial chief Liz Savage would also oversee network management under the changes, while V Australia would be integrated into the airline's operations division under Andrew David, the memo said.

"It will increase accountability, remove duplication and create greater integration across our domestic and international network," Borghetti said in the memo.

Qantas' former head of government and international relations Jane McKeon, who was poached this week, would be in charge of government relations under the changes.

A new executive position was also created to focus on products and guest services as the airline seeks to step up its image in the business-class market.

Borghetti, who spearheaded a revamp of Qantas' first and business-class lounges in his previous role is known to have a passion for fast cars and expensive suits.

As well as poaching McKeon, Qantas' head of domestic pricing and yield Will Owens had also left to work for Virgin Blue, three airline sources said.

Competition is fierce in Australia's small domestic aviation market which is dominated by Qantas and its low-cost offshoot Jetstar which together have a 65 percent market share.

Singapore-listed budget carrier Tiger Airways has also stirred up the local aviation market with the introduction of cut-price fares aimed at the country's leisure travel market.

However, some analysts warned Borghetti faced an uphill battle mustering sufficient resources to take on Qantas.

Figures out Wednesday showed Qantas passenger numbers rose 5.6 percent in May compared to a year ago. Passenger numbers were up 7.6 percent for the financial year so far.

Virgin Blue's passenger numbers rose 4.6 percent across its domestic and international operations in May and 1.5 percent for the financial year to date.

British billionaire Richard Branson's Virgin Group owns a 25 percent stake in Virgin Blue.

Wires

[6100]

My mail is that the 4/7 rule has pretty much run its course because the 6th and 7th aircraft probably won't ever arrive, and we already have the numbers to comply with the 4/7 rule for 5 aircraft. Therefore the majority of command slots in the future should come from SFO's.

That said, if there are no more aircraft coming, the only command slots will come from attrition. There is a reasonable amount of older guys who joined from Singair and CX who will be moving on in the next year or two, so there is definitely some room for movement for SFO's, but not a lot.

Once the 4/7 agreement has been met, I doubt that there will be another 73/ejet captain offered a slot ahead of SFO's. But I could be wrong.

[SilverSleuth]

6100 wrote: My mail is that the 4/7 rule has pretty much run its course because the 6th and 7th aircraft probably won't ever arrive, and we already have the numbers to comply with the 4/7 rule for 5 aircraft. Therefore the majority of command slots in the future should come from SFO's.

That said, if there are no more aircraft coming, the only command slots will come from attrition. There is a reasonable amount of older guys who joined from Singair and CX who will be moving on in the next year or two, so there is definitely some room for movement for SFO's, but not a lot.

Once the 4/7 agreement has been met, I doubt that there will be another 73/ejet captain offered a slot ahead of SFO's. But I could be wrong.

yes your mail is very wrong. V Australia no longer has a CEO and shortly a separate flight ops division. Incase you missed the memo they will be integrated and V will Not be getting any more 777. JB does not like the 777 set up at all as it is a constant loss making division. Expect a timeline for them to make a profit or they will be gone completely in the future. Which is the hot tip. A combined seniority is tipped where all V Australia pilots will get there start date in relation to the VB pilots and promotion will be based on that. And before you say it just remember VA is 100% owned by VB. It is there airline to do what they want. JB won't keep a loss making venture going very long at all.

[6100]

I can say with some degree of confidence that whilst i can't guarantee what i have said is correct, but i can guarantee that what you have said is not entirely correct either.


VA has never had a CEO, only an executive general manager.
Said EGM is still there, but probably not for long.

777's will not go any time soon. As previously been rumoured, 767's or 330's still being evaluated. Any new wide body likely to be operated by existing experienced widebody crews in the event of redundancy on the 777.

Regardless of any integration 777 pilots will be protected in their current positions, as long as 777's continue to be operated. Any combined seniority, if it ever eventuates, will be an ugly process and who knows how it will resolve itself.

Most likely and least painful outcome would be to have widebody and narrowbody seniority. That way no one is disadvantaged. But that assumes there will continue to be a widebody fleet of some description, which is by no means certain.

[Mr.Buzzy]

You're clutching at straws when you believe management are going to differentiate between "widebody" and "narrowbody" when it comes to greedy pilots.

V is a disaster and will be managed accordingly.

bbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Break Right]

Most likely and least painful outcome would be to have widebody and narrowbody seniority. That way no one is disadvantaged

Don't think so!!!:=

[6100]

I'm confused

What does widebody or narrowbody have to do with greedy.

In any case, I'm sure they would be more than happy to differentiate if they can keep the current widebody group on the current widebody conditions.

[VOz_HR_Sheik]

keep the current widebody group on the current widebody conditions

Exactly. Do you really the 777 drivers will be just merged into VB's EBA and given a pay rise?

Welcome to 'B' scale ladies and gentlemen.

:)

[ernestkgann]

You might be correct but it will be an awfully difficult case to argue in court that two sets of pilots in the same company and doing roughly the same job should be paid two different wages. There may be some difference in the end but it is a principle of the FWA that there is 'fairness' in wages in the same company.
Just out of interest HR arab fellow, why does the prospect of a 'B' scale give you joy?

[6100]

Your are exactly on the money Sheikh.

It will be game on, and the game won't be let's see how we (VB) can screw the V pilots, it will be how do we ensure the V pilots are bought up to the VB payscale. Because if the V guys are integrated into VB, and stay on the current V payscale, where do you think the next VB eba will be played?

[VOz_HR_Sheik]

difficult case to argue in court that two sets of pilots in the same company and doing roughly the same job should be paid two different wages

Really? Better let the EMB drivers know that one.;)

give you joy?

Most of my posts are cynical and tongue in cheek. :ugh:

:)

[SilverSleuth]

6100 you really are sniffing the mushrooms aren't you.
"VA will be doing wide body on separate conditions but be part of VB." ???? Keep dreaming...
You really haven't got a clue have you. And as far as VA effecting any eba vote. I'm sure the almost 1000 drivers at VB aren't too concerned.
I think you and all VA people should be praying they give you a go at the bottom of the VB start dates. Considering you are on contracts that would be good thing for VA drivers.
As already said VA will be under review to make a profit or shut down. May be 12 months 18 whatever. Fiji and phuket will be dropped very soon. There will no more 777s, very little upgrades. if or when it does get combined don't expect any VA driver to be upgraded ahead of any VB driver. JB is a big believer of seniority. (oh and once again VA is 100% VB owned) !!
I am not against the company bringing on the VA drivers under the Vb pilot group however don't be naive. your start date will be blended into that of the VB pilot group as it should.
As far as conditions go that will be decided in the forthcoming EBA. But is pretty obvious it will ALL be under the one pilot group.

[PBN]

Whats the feeling on PB and the current management merger????

[ernestkgann]

I don't know whether it was or not but I assume the EMB's t and c were voted for in the EBA. On the face of it they should be paid exactly the same as the 737 fellows unless there was some understanding or coercion attached to the voting.
You should have used the cynical smiley rather than the smilie smilie then V sheikh.

[SilverSleuth]

PBN wrote: Whats the feeling on PB and the current management merger????

Not much at all been said about PB. Like VA and VB, PB is also under review.
Hopefully they will also become part of the VB flt ops also but nothing been said so far. JB has publicly said he wants to get rid of duplication and consolidate. And there is a complete duplication of everything in PB.
PB will be apart of re branding though, which is a good thing. The rest is wait and see.

[Vorsicht]

Too bad the crew lists are being kept and "lists of offenders" are already floating about amongst VB crew


Are you the most petty bunch of tossers on the planet, or what! Openly stating you are keeping a hit list of CRFO's just because they didn't pay hommage to the mighty VB skygod whilst disembarking.

Gimme a break! Surely that was sarcasm!

Having said that, having paxed on probably a hundred VB flights, I don't ever recall having seen one of the skygods venture out of his cave at the front, let alone lower himself to interact with a passenger, or worse, a "two striper"

[Dubya]

Vorsicht and others...

I work for VB, and I have NOT seen a 'target list' for Cruise FO's, so I think that bit is porky pies..

As far as leaving my cave (as you put it), our Ops Manual states that I am only allowed to leave the cave on certain circumstances...ie..having a slash.....NOT to hold babies and shake hands with the passengers. Sorry to disappoint you, buddy.....let me know when you're on my flight next time, and I send a special cherio to you in my PA....

grow up ladies....we always seem to be crawling over each other to get to the top of this heap, only to find that it's a race to the bottom.....:ugh:

[porch monkey]

Far as I know, there is only one personfrom VA who has earned a No Jump seat policy with some of the boys. Rightly earned too, I might add. However, word is he has now secured a job with management at VB. Interesting!

[Jet Man]

PM, that one is still in the rumour basket!

[porch monkey]

It will pose a few noses out of joint if in fact it isn't a rumour.... So will the addition of at least 3 outsiders to the LOM Jobs. Direct Entry Captains, no less. Standby for more on that one...:hmm:. What will the union do this time?:rolleyes:

[KRUSTY 34]

Heard today Porch', rumour of course, that at the current level of expenditure by VB to keep VA going, if VA does not turn a profit, then VB will exhaust their reserves within 3 years!

I suspect (and quite probably sooner than 3 years), that what the union think may sadly, become academic. :sad:

[porch monkey]

Rumour? JB has been quoted as saying that 3 years would've seen the company out. Not necessarily based on just VA's lack of contribution to the bottom line, but an overall picture based on the competition, where we stand as an airline, the loss making areas etc. His opinion only, however, one would be silly not to respect his judgement. As a result, changes aplenty, first with upper/middle management, and more recently, flight ops. Look for more changes to who does what work around the place too, as the word is PB WILL be getting ALL the international work besides VA's. VA makes money to LA. It loses it and more by going to Phuket and Fiji, don't know about Seth Effrica. PB will be the "Jetstar" of VB, mark my words.

[bowing]

Finally VBs future summed up in one paragraph:ok::D

[Going Boeing]

PB will be the "Jetstar" of VB, mark my words.

Good summation PM. Once all the VB pilots (& CC) realise this they will follow more closely the proceedings of AIPA's court case re Jit Connect pilot salaries. If AIPA win this the flow-on for all pilots and CC will be very significant. Qantas realise the implications which is why they attempted an ambush of AIPA's lawyers by deploying its significant resources including a Senior Counsel, a Managing Partner of its go-to Industrial Relations law firm Freehills, its Industrial Relations consultant from Oldmeadow Consulting and a senior Qantas Industrial Relations practitioner to a mere directions hearing - a routine event that is typically used to program future dates for the submission of evidence. The fact that they would send such a "heavy" legal team to a directions hearing is a strong indication that they don't like the serious consequences if they lose this case.

I'm sure that VIPA are being kept informed by AIPA about the progress of the case.

[The Baron]

"VIPA being kept informed by AIPA"? If VIPA and AIPA have intimate relations it's still called onanism.

[CubaLibre]

Sorry, I honestly dont keep track of these things, has VIPA replaced the AFAP at VB?

[Red Jet]

CubaLibre Sorry, I honestly dont keep track of these things, has VIPA replaced the AFAP at VB?

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up:ok:

[slice]

Well VIPA would like to think so, but basically we now have two Associations that will be sitting down at the next round of EBA negotiations (VIPA and AFAP). No one really knows how this will play out at the moment. With some possibly interesting fleet developments coming up (E170s out, some V Aus routes and 190s with a bit of a question mark for the long term) as well as an operational change with regard to V Aus and PB (coming under the one Flight Ops Dept in VB) and possibly a widebody in the 767 / A330 class I predict a full on sh1t fight bro!

Turds will be flying from the Ejet end, the V Aus (ie the Emirati) side, the Pacbro team, the VB home crew (with 2 factions - VIPA and the Feds p1ssing from each of their corners), it's gunna be circus of the century folks. Roll up, roll up - you aint seen nuthin yet!!!:8

[air command]

love your work slice !!
With V Aus being pulled back into the fold, can't imagine the Emirati would be very happy. Things are about to get VERY interesting indeed.

[ernestkgann]

Why wouldnt the Emirati be happy?

[KRUSTY 34]

Seniority maybe?

[Red Jet]

KRUSTY 34 Seniority maybe?
Well, they're pretty much already sitting at what is likely to become the upper branches of the new tree, so I wouldn't imagine they'd be too upset:confused:

The new widebody type is likely to be the cat amongst the pigeons though - no doubt about that......

[Kanga1]

The Emirati are all senior B777 Checkies. I don't think seniority is a concern for them.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Terrific news then!
They will find the Ejet FO course a breeze!

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Capt OverUnder]

redjet , vipa is in name only , has no venom (AFAP a majority by far!) yes looking forward to the s--fight! From someone who has been around since Day 1 , bring it on!

[ZQN]

A widebody on the VB EBA? I can't see it. My guess is VA will be crewing the A330's.

[virginexcess]

I think you're right Krusty.

I can just see the angst now from all the 777 skippers that are hoping to jump the queue to get a maggot command.

But then again, they might just stay on the 777, in case the company decides to convert a couple of 777 options to 787 options. But i guess in VB world, the logical path then would be to draw on the superior skills of the 737 crowd to fly the 787, after all it's just an aeroplane, how hard could it be?;)

Or what about the 330, who's going to claim ownership of that? Do I hear the sound of DEC's knocking on the door again???

One thing i know for sure is that none of you clowns know what's going to happen (me included). :}:}

[porch monkey]

I might not know what's going to happen, but i sure don't like the smell of it at the moment.

[porch monkey]

As far as the seniority thing goes, it has been mentioned that JB is dead set against it, in all it's forms. Nice grenade to lob into the mix I reckon.

[SKYCAMEL]

VirginExcess,

The DEC's are already here, that can fly the 330.:ok:

[slice]

Where ? Who ?:}

[UAL Furlough]

There are quite a number of Captains and SFO's at Vaustralia with A330 endorsements, some as check and trainers on it....enough to get it going....the same goes for the B-767.

I can't speak for the Virgin Blue guys, but there has to be at least some with B-767 time and most likely some A-320 experience.

So my guess is that between the two sets of pilots, no DEC A-330 or B-767 guys would HAVE to be hired....that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be hired though....

[F111]

VB is full of pilots with B767 or A320 time.

[virginexcess]

There are certainly guys with the background, but obviously no one current, so it would be interesting to see what take the regulator would have on it.

No doubt the company will want DEC's because of the massive cost saving.

But you never know, maybe JB is interested in trying to build a real airline, maybe not.

[inandout]

A reality check is required. Given VB are cutting back on hrs flown-fact , their modest financial position-fact and current world uncertanly-fact, there is no way they are committing dollars to a new type this year.

[virginexcess]

Wanna Bet?

It may not be this year, but I'll bet there will a new widebody type in the company before the end of next year.