Flying the Machynlleth Loop

[Leezyjet]

Just wondered if anyone had flown the "Mach" loop ?. Always fancied having a go myself, obviously in something a lot smaller and slower than can usually be found flying round it.

Looking on the chart, most of it is outside of the Valley AIAA.

I take it on the weekend it would be reasonably quiet and a better time to do it compared to a weekday ?. - don't really fancy meeting a fast jet or a Hurc half way round. :eek:

I'd obviously give Valley a call, or Swanwick Mil to let them know.

Other than that, any other tips ?.

:)

[Pilot DAR]

Check your Flight Manual for the appropriate entry speed, look out (up) for traffic, assure safe altitude, secure loose objects in the cockpit, and try to keep it to about 3G's...

[Mark1234]

I'm wondering if PilotDAR knows full well what the Mach loop is, and that's beautiful irony, or (entirely fairly) has no idea :ok:

Sidenote - the mach(ynlleth) loop is a locally well known low fly practise route for the military folks. Usually the faster pointier flavours of military folks at that.

I also like the idea of doing it.. BUT in order to 'do it' you'd have to be breaking low fly rules, and probably quite a bit of common sense. Not to mention that the ground climbs pretty steeply in a few spots. Tooling round at sensible/legal alts would seem a bit futile. Much as I'd love to play fast jet for a day, IMHO I'd leave it. The consequences of meeting one of the more usual denizens don't bear thinking about, even if it's only a near miss.

I wonder what the response from valley etc would be!

[vanHorck]

I think this one illustrates it quite well, including the entry speed :D

YouTube - Mach Loop - July 08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcbHKafEaUs)

[gasax]

I've not flown the loop, but I do routinely fly "Stars Wars", otherwise known as Glen Tilt. It is straighter but narrower than the loop.

At light aircrat speeds there is plenty of room, the turning radius of light aircraft is soo much less than a FJ that I would not let that part bother you.

Glen Tilt has 2 houses so there are Rule 5 issues - I usually climb up the east side to get the clearance - but the locals don't really notice a quiet Rotax! Obviously forced landing option are going to be pretty limited but that s your decision. Glen Tilt slopes from NE to SW so that helps. The loop I suspect has much less elevation change.

If you're happy with being 'in the terrain' and all the restrictions that brings why not?

[Anonystude]

Star Wars is a) a lot straighter than the Loop, b) shorter, c) easier to navigate round, d) a lot, lot quieter and e) wider in places (apart from the very southern end).

[Pilot DAR]

Pilot DAR is attempting uninformed humour form the left side of the Atlantic - go on about your looping!

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I remember the sad event in the Welsh valleys some years ago when a RAF Jaguar collided with a C150/152 on a photographic sortie.

Apart from trying to fly the aircraft and take photographs at the same time, the Cessna pilot had not intentionally planned to do anything stupid.

If I recall correctly, the Jaguar instructor was the first RAF pilot to have a by-pass operation and return to flying. Short-lived.

My own 'sphincter twitching' moment came a number of years ago when, as a relatively inexperienced PPL, I went for a flight up to the Lake District. As I was flying towards the valley passing Helvellyn Warton Radar informed me 'Two F-111s, opposite direction, height unknown'! I never saw them.

To knowingly put yourself in a potentially risky/dangerous situation. Why?

KR

FOK

PS: Not to mention the risk to OTHER pilots and people on the ground.

[JEM60]

Did it as a passenger in a Vampire T.11 many years ago when in the ATC. Brilliant!!!!!

[Pull what]

I remember the sad event in the Welsh valleys some years ago when a RAF Jaguar collided with a C150/152 on a photographic sortie.

Anyone got a reference date or any more info on this accident pse?

[Legalapproach]

I think it was around August 1991 overhead Carno Powys

[gasax]

Well Anony I think you are over stating matters.

The accident you quote is the subject of much discussion elsewhere on Pprune - essentially stating that the crew well not sufficiently current to undertake the details they were tasked with. Flying the loop in a FJ is doubtless difficult, flying these features at less than a quarter of the speed is actually quite restful!

The reference to the Carno accident is also interesting - a Cessna hit from behind and yet the analysis was heavily biased that it was the Cessna's fault. Thankfully if such an accident happened again such a finding would be highly unlikely. The CANP process never worked and the inability to obey the rules of the air by military aircraft is becoming less acceptable.

Certainly flying the loop when it is 'actice' would be dumb. But I do not believe that was the OP's intent. Remove the possiblity of collision and the simple avoiding the terrain issue is easy - in a light aircraft.

[Torque Tonight]

My thoughts on reading the opening post were to suggest that you give the Mach Loop a wide berth. Knowingly knocking about in an area of intense fast jet activity is unwise. Entering such an area at low level in a light aircraft is such a bad idea as to be bordering on reckless.

Suffice to say that I also strongly disagree with Gasax' analysis of the Carno accident.

I'm beginning to wonder if it was Gasax or one of his fellow 'why not' brigade who caused me and my crew some lost heartbeats in a similar situation a few years ago in an equally well known military low flying choke point. Coming around the corner at about 75ft AGL to see a light fxed wing head on and very slightly above - I had to descend aggressively to avoid a collision. No evasive action whatsoever from the other aircraft. I presume he never saw us (but I guess he felt our wake a few seconds later).

[Duchess_Driver]

Air Accidents Investigation: 2/1992 XX843 and G-BMHI (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/formal_reports/2_1992__xx843_and_g_bmhi.cfm?view=print&view=screen&)

[BHenderson]

Whilst flying the Mach Loop during the week would seem quite unwise, I don't see the same issues with doing so at the weekend if/when it is inactive. I get the real sense sometimes that a number of military pilots think they own the skies and are the only ones with rights to fly low.

There is an email address/phone number in one of the flight planning CAPs that can be used to inform units of a planned civilian flight through these types of areas.

[Maoraigh1]

"I'm beginning to wonder if it was Gasax or one of his fellow 'why not' brigade who caused me and my crew some lost heartbeats in a similar situation a few years ago in an equally well known military low flying choke point. Coming around the corner at about 75ft AGL to see a light fxed wing head on and very slightly above - I had to descend aggressively to avoid a collision. No evasive action whatsoever from the other aircraft. I presume he never saw us (but I guess he felt our wake a few seconds later)."
What action would a light single have time to take? If he was 500' from any person etc, he was legal as a civil pilot. The military have areas totally reserved to them - eg the Highland Restricted Area from 1500 to 2300 local, Monday to Thursday. If flying in Class G airspace, they should be prepared to see and avoid. At the speed I fly, I'm like a hedgehog on the motorway to them.

[Torque Tonight]

What action would a light single have time to take?

If he was looking where he was going he would have had exactly the same time to react and maneuvre that I had. Any adjustment of his velocity vector away from my own would have been very welcome. The fact that there was limited opportunity available to provided safe separation illustrates one of the many hazards of low level valley flying and begs the question 'is it wise to put yourself in that situation unnecessarily'. I was there, professionally trained to low fly and legally authorised to operate down to 50ft. I would presume that most likely he was there for a bit of fun.

I would not claim that the RAF 'own' the sky and I accept that under certain circumstances a PPL holder can fly below 500ft legally. Having that right does not automatically mean that exercising that right is always a good idea. I do actually see this argument from both sides as I own a share in a light aircraft. I have to confess that in my previous life, military low flying was some of the most exciting and demanding flying I have ever done and I would love to do it again. However you would not in a million years catch me bimbling through the Mach Loop, or as my example referred to, the M6 Pass, because of the risk to my own neck and that of the professional pilot, there out of necessity, coming the other way at 6G and 420kts. I guess that puts me firmly in the stuffy old killjoy category.

At the speed I fly, I'm like a hedgehog on the motorway to them. Hedgehogs may have the legal right to cross motorways, but electing to do so for recreation is not necessarily a good idea.

[Leezyjet]

Certainly flying the loop when it is 'actice' would be dumb. But I do not believe that was the OP's intent. Remove the possiblity of collision and the simple avoiding the terrain issue is easy - in a light aircraft.

Exactly.

I've flown in mountainous areas in South Africa many times before - the general flying area we used for PPL training was in 2 valleys with mountains up to 4,000ft, and I'm not just a "simple ppl" either. I hold a full CPL/MEIR so I ain't stupid when it comes to flying and don't take unnecessary risks either, but every once in a while I like to do something a bit more fun than just flying in straight lines everywhere.

I'm sure the RAF could spare 20 minutes or so for someone else to have a go too as it is after all outside a restricted/danger area so they don't own or control it. If the military want to control who flies in that part of the sky, then they should make it an official danger/restricted area - most of it isn't even in the Valley AAIA.

I would have no intention of doing it on a weekday when it is likely to be busy. I'd also fly over it high at first to have a look at the route and any potential obstacles, then take it down lower to what I considered safe. I'd hardly be skimming through the valley at 100ft, I doubt if Id even be low enough for the low flying rules to even be an issue and I'd be at an absolute max of 130kts so anticipating corners and pancaking into the hillside is hardly an issue at those speeds.

So if Valley or Swanwick Mil would not be interested, who would be best to advise that I was doing it should the RAF/USAF decide to come though on a weekend ?.

Whilst I thank the RAF guys for their input, rather than thinking of flying it at 400kts at 100 ft or less as you fly it, think about flying it at 6-700ft at 130kts max and aside from a collision risk, which if done on a weekend is probably no worse than flying between the Luton/Stansted and Heathrow zones on a weekend, where everyone is flying round between 1,000-2,000ft then it isn't such a crazy idea at all.

:)

[Ozgrade3]

Those military wimps don't know how to fly, up at their lofty 300ft agl, they might as well be in a low earth orbit. here in Oz we crop dust at 3 feet, trees??/....just go around them. Powerlines, easy, just go under them. Then, we do it again..........at night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ytmAIkvsY

[Phororhacos]

If I recall correctly, the Jaguar instructor was the first RAF pilot to have a by-pass operation and return to flying.

Bit more involved than a by-pass. It was a heart & lung transplant

[abgd]

I'm sure the RAF could spare 20 minutes or so for someone else to have a go too as it is after all outside a restricted/danger area so they don't own or control it.

I've seen some photos on another website, taken by the spotters who sit on the hill taking overhead photos of the fast jets. I've considered flying the circuit myself - I'm told you don't have to go that low and you call ahead to see if the circuit's clear. Problem is my radio hasn't got the range.

I wouldn't fly the loop without calling first. Neither would I assume the RAF would be willing to spare 20 minutes at my convenience. It costs about £60k per hour to keep an Eurofighter in the air so if you make 3 of them fly in circles for 20 minutes waiting for you to clear the training area, then it's an expensive trip for the taxpayer. They use the Mach loop often, but not so often that it's hard to find a time when it's empty.

Flying in Wales is wonderful. In contrast to the airspace around London where you have to be continually on guard to avoid shutting down Heathrow or Gatwick, you can pretty much do as you like. I would hate to see the military gaining a huge swathe of airspace when we can easily avoid conflict just by talking to each other.

[air pig]

Bit more involved than a by-pass. It was a heart & lung transplant

It was the late Wing Commander John Morden who was to take command of 226 OCU at Lossiemouth. He'd managed to regain is flying catagory with restrictions following his operation at Papworth Hospital. He is the only fast jet pilot ever to return to fast jet flying. The other pilot was Wing Commander Bill Pixton ex CO of 41 Squadron who survived.