PPL(A) SEP and Microlight-Weightshift??

[pipertommy]

Does anyone on here fly both SEP and Weightshift aircraft??

Will it present a hazard as the controls are reversed, and the reaction to certain circumstances can lead to dangerous control inputs ie landing.

I would like to move into microlights as well as maintaining my SEP flying/instructing.
I like the idea of cruising at a nice slow pace and not paying the earth, actually owning the aircraft is very attractive too.

Thanks for any advice that you can pass on:ok:

[acoulson]

I have a PPL(A) SEP, and am currently enjoying differences training on a flexwing (GT450). Its taken me a few hours to get used to the reversed controls, but I don't anticipate that once I'm 'signed off', that changing types from flexwing to (A) and back again will present any undue problems. (Not any more than, say, flying nosewheel/tailwheel/nosewheel aeroplane types does, once you're competent).

I'm enjoying all the delights you describe, and more.

Cheers,
Andy

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm not currently flying weighshift, but was flying both for about 8 years, and hope to start flying weightshift again sometime soon.

They are TOO different to confuse, once I had around 20hrs total on weightshift, it was no more a problem than say confusing my car and bicycle controls.

I'm more worried switching between 3-axis microlights and SEP, because they look and feel similar, but need quite different attitudes, speeds and flare heights.

G

[pipertommy]

Thanks for the replies. Sounds less likely to confuse control inputs when you say it`s like confusing my car and bicycle controls.

Just need to save a bit and start looking:)

Thanks Again.

[hatzflyer]

Many years ago most of us started out on flexwings because there were very few true 3 axis microlights about although there were hybrids like the eagle for instance , that used a combination of weight shift coupled with rudimentary control surfaces.
The general consensus was that when moving on to GA there was never any problems. Some GA pilots who had ingrained emergency reflexes found it harder to go the other way.
There are shed loads of people that fly both without any problems.:ok:

[Fake Sealion]

I'm more worried switching between 3-axis microlights and SEP, because they look and feel similar, but need quite different attitudes, speeds and flare heights

Interesting comment about flare heights for 3 axis M/L. Can you expand on this a bit?

[RTN11]

I fly both 3-axis microlights, and SEP aircraft, often jumping straight from one to the other, and have to agree that it does take a bit of thought.

The landing characteristics are very different, you come in incredibly slow, and have to roundout/flare at a comparatively low height.

Also, the controls are generally reversed, from yoke in right hand, throttle in left to the complete opposite.

Very good fun though, awesome take off and climb performance, and at 12 litres an hour much less costly.

No problem at all with confusing the controls of a weightshift to 3-axis, the sensations just aren't the same.

[hatzflyer]

They may be in opposite hands, but not reversed. i.e. pull back go up , not vice versa.

[RTN11]

I realise that, but particularly in the C42, where the throttle is a stick between your legs which is almost identical to the control stick in say a robin, problems could easily occour if you weren't paying attention when trying to fly a go around for example.

Also, with the stick being in the middle, it's not the most comfortable place to put it, and tends to lead students to subconsiously pull it towards them, and always fly off to the left.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A bit more general advice:

- Join the BMAA now, you'll need them, and the magazine is worth it alone.

- 3rd generation aircraft with 2-stroke engines will cost you around £3k and cruise around 40-50kn, later higher performance flexwings with 2/4 stroke engines around £6k, high performance newer 4-stroke aircraft will cruise around 65-70kn, and cost you around £10k-£30k.

- A trailer is something you really want, and obviously a towbar on your car.

- Get somebody to train you up in rigging and derigging as well as flying, it's not intuitive!

- Buy a really decent thermal flying suit / combo - you won't regret this! Also good motorcycle gloves, ideally something like moped gloves that don't have too much armour and thus allow you to operate radio buttons.

- Lots of people will tell you about cost, but my rule of thumb for a regular-flying microlight owner is that if you about double the fuel spend for a 2-stroke aircraft, or treble it for a 4-stroke, you'll be about right.

And yes, it's every bit as much fun as you think it will be.

G

[batninth]

- Join the BMAA now, you'll need them, and the magazine is worth it alone.

Couldn't agree more

[pipertommy]

Thanks again for the reply.
Sorry another question has popped into my head:} How do you refuel if you have gone touring? Take it with you? Or do microlight fields provide 2 stroke/ petrol?

Thanks.

[Barshifter]

There are fields that now stock mogas but they are few and far between.The oil you would have to take with you.400mls of oil per 20 litres is the normal mix so depending how far you are intending to go you would need to know your fuel burn and therefore work out roughly how much oil you to carry.
Two strokes will burn between 8-18ltrs an hour depending on engine size/pob.
The second generation trykes will potter along quite happily at 55mph and some have a 65ltr tank which gives you quite a good range thus reducing the amount of oil you would need to take.In the past ive poured the oil into the tank in as its been refuelled at the airfield pump which can be hit and miss for acuracy or another way is to draw 20ltrs in to a jerry can then pop your 400mls into it and the stick it into your plane.All part of the adventure of flexwing touring!!

[pipertommy]

:ok:Thanks again for the reply, 3/4 hours is not bad at all.
As you say its all part of the adventure

[Genghis the Engineer]

Avgas is expensive, and not the best fuel for a Rotax, but so far as I know all Rotax engines can be run on Avgas.

A trick I've used a few times is to trickle the oil into the filter funnel as I carefully refuel from an Avgas pump - it works well enough.

The other obvious trick, is to take a 20 litre jerry can with you (easy enough if flying solo in a 2-seater at-least) ! Flexwings generally don't like being too light from a handling viewpoint, so one of those - full - in the back seat is a good thing from numerous viewpoints.

G

[The Flying Pram]

Sorry for a rather late reply - I haven't been on the forum for some time. As a former motorcyclist I wouldn't recommend Avgas in a 2 stroke engine. I can well remember suffering from lead fouling, and coasting to the side of the road with a dead engine. This, I would suggest, is preferable to finding a suitable field in a hurry!

I always fly with a full can in the back seat, and can confirm Ghengis the Engineer's findings about handling - my old Flash 2 is particularly tricky when light.

Hope this helps.

TFP

[pipertommy]

Thanks for all the replies.

[vee-tail-1]

We had a similar discussion on this a while back.
It seems that some pilots manage the reversed controls GA/Flex without any problems, and others like me just can't do it.
I did a couple of circuits with an instructor in (on) a flexwing, and enjoyed the view and the shear practicality of the machine. But fly it I could not! Even with my utmost concentration the aircraft would progressively diverge, and every correction would be too much or in the wrong sense. I guess I might get it after much time, but it would always be like riding a bike with crossed hands.
My fear is that in some sudden emergency near the ground ingrained and instinctive reaction would produce a wrong control input. Sudden engine failure in a left hand climbing turn after t/off for instance. My instant unthinking reaction would be to push foward and to the right. Someone trained on a flexwing might pull back and to the left, which would be fatal if flying a GA aeroplane.
Just my pennyworth... perhaps instructors should spring surprises on pilots who have made the conversion, to ensure their instinctive reactions are appropriate to the aircraft type.

[hatzflyer]

When safe to do so, practice driving your car by gripping the bottom segment of the steering wheel (as oposed to the top as usual ).
You will find that you are then pulling the wheel in the opposite direction to the turn. Exactly like a weightshift! It soon becomes natural.