ATC situation in Spain

[p_perez]

Hello!

It´s been a long time since I last updated the changing situation we ATCO´s are experimenting in the lasts months in Spain. I´m going to throw in some info so that you can make yourself a picture of what to expect when you fly through our skies. Maybe this can prevent some rant from you guys on the radio or in this forum. I´ll try to limit myself only to facts, some other time I´ll let you know my opinion:

We have been imposed BY LAW (no talks, no agreements, no negotiation with our union) an increase in our yearly working hours, from 1200 hrs to 1670 hrs, 39% more hrs a year.
Our time for breaks has been reduced, also BY LAW, from 33% to 25% daily, and from 50% to 33% during nights. No previous study about the impact on our work load has been made. This adds to the increase in our yearly hours: we work more hours with less resting time. The distribution of the breaks is sometimes surreal: breaks at the beginning of your shift make you work 6 hrs with only a 45 min. break.
Mandatory recalls are now legal for us (only for Spanish ATCO´s, this doesn´t affect to the rest of the Spanish workers, yet ...), anytime, anyday, 24 hrs a day, 365 days a year. This means that AENA (Spanish ATC SP) can make you work whenever they want, on your days off, with no excuses for not attending the service. They can let you know with only 6 hrs notice, so you can imagine how this disturbs your private life: wife, kids, friends, etc ... SLAVERY?
Vacations are now assigned by AENA, and you can only know your monthly schedule (including holydays) on the 20th of the previous month: that is only 10 days to plan ahead your holydays, family life, etc ... Even so, AENA can change it anytime, anyway they want.
Operational decisions are now taken by staff non-operational personnel: runway in use, number of sectors and configuration in use, sector capacity, regulations, calibration-aircraft timetables, ATCO´s at work ... ATCO supervisors must obey their orders without discussion.
Veteran ATCO´s older than 57 (the most experienced) are not allowed to control anymore, and are now forced to do burocratic jobs. This has been a great loss for all of us, because of their huge experience on the job. At Madrid TMA, about 30% of the ATCO´s have been retired from operational jobs, and have been hardly replaced by already exploited colleagues or by non-operational ATCO´s forced to return to the ACC.
The limit of monthly working hrs has been risen to 200 hrs. My wife works around 180 hrs from 0900 to 1700, no nights, no weekends, no holydays ... Some people are working 20-25 days in a row, and on their days off it is usual to be assigned an "imaginaria" service: you must be on call 1 hr before the service starts up to 1/2 an hr after because they can phone you and you must report at work. And even if you don´t have an "imaginaria" that day, a recall can be imposed the previous day.
When we complain about sector capacities being exceeded, the answer we get from AENA or from EASA (Spanish air safety agency) is that it´s our fault for abusing direct routings or clearing FL different from those filed in the FP. They even remind us that there is an Eurocontrol document preventing against direct routing and non-scheduled FL´s.
Our salaries have been cut up to a 70% in some cases. AENA is not respecting pay agreements signed with the ATCO´s during the last 10 years. We don´t know what we will get paid next month.
Socially, our profession has been ruined as we are now seen by most of the people as privileged lazy scum with high salaries and low productivities, always on strike, always abusing the rest of the citizens (the last strike in Spanish ATC was in 1986), in a country with more than 5 million unemployed (more than 20%). The media campaign against us reached even international news agencies, and had nothing to envy to that made by Goebbles against jews.
You can be fired for "disciplinary" reasons anytime. You can consider the concept "disciplinary" in the context in which this whole message is written.
You can be sent to another destination at AENA´s wish. No excuses, no compensation. We are expecting to see several forced relocations of ATCO´s from Barcelona ACC to Madrid ACC to compensate for the veterans they decided no longer could be operational.
Sick leaves are on the rise, with the increase of work-load for those still active: at LEAL, 8 out of 18 are down, at Sevilla ACC its 18 out of 120 down, etc ... My colleagues are literally breaking down on a daily basis.
All the trainning time has been suspended: no more time for new procedures, new LOA´s, new systems ...
LSA (Air Safety Law) can impose very high monetary fines on ATCO´s, up to 240.000 €, for diverse reasons. In fact, AESA doesn´t have a state budget: they finance themselves by the fines they impose. Bye, bye "just culture" ...
High season is about to begin in the coasts of Spain and at the Balearic Islands ...
USCA (Spanish main union, 96%) has repeatedly denounced that SAFETY IS AT RISK in the Spanish skies: 96% increase in incidents in march, with 7 almost-collisions at Madrid TMA (class A incidents) in 4 months. More info at: Caos en los cielos españoles :: Aviación :: Política :: Periodista Digital (http://www.periodistadigital.com/aviacion/politica/2010/05/26/aena-aesa-mfom-seguridad-fomento-aviaciondigital-aviacion.shtml)
USCA has been spied by Spanish state intelligence, their webpage has been hacked, the mails have been stolen.I hope this helps you to understand why we can´t give direct routings or FL other than those of the FP, or some other non-desirable situations. I can assure you that we Spanish ATCO´s are doing our best, as we have always done. I will gladly attend any question that arises on this matter.


Saludos!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

My dear spanish colleagues, :ok:

If you think that your T&C aren't atractive anymore ,please Shall we change positions?
You may come to my airport and I will go to your airport. Package for package :} without additional renumeration allowances. :E
But let's examine sentence by sentence:

1.Increase from 1200 to 1670 hr per yer.It means from 100 hours working per month to 140 hr per year. It is still behind my working hours that are 156 minimum,or another rule in that direction: Number of working days during the month multiple with 8 i.e in some months it could be as much as 176 or extreme case 184 hours per month. It is also regulated by Law.personally I remember 144 hours as a rule but that has been changed in contract but nobady knows when and how,even Law says that representative of workers must accept changes. :confused:

2.Time for breaks, 1 hour if your shift is 12 hours,if you work in administration 8 hours dayli you are still entitled to 1 hour break.:}

3.Mandathory recalls: We have no such formal institution but if SATCO calls you it means immediatelly! :E

4.montly schedule is never released before 25th due to "high importance of projects" but anyhow schedule doesn't mean anything because it could be changed undefinitelly number of times per month:ugh:

5. For idea "direct routing" I have been punished only once,so far.....:}

6.Socially, our profession has been ruined as we are now seen by most of the people as privileged lazy scum with high salaries and low productivities Our proffesional associations take the highest responsibility for such public attitude.They haven't done anything in that direction.
:mad:
7.Yes,Director general could fire up to 5% of total workfoce in company without any explanation,in one year. If he/she needs more firings than should ask iunion representative for opinion.Could you imagine what does it mean in real life?
:*
8.You could be sent at any location without explanation or whatsever,since 1945.:}

9.Not air safety law but Criminal Law, deals with the mistakes during the operational work. 5 years in prison if you gave wrong navigational instruction. :ouch:

10 Union has always been under strcict state control.Nothing new. :D

So as you could see I will consider move to Valencia APP as a positive change.....
:E
Best regards,

[coolbeans]

Holy Sh:mad:te that is absolutely shocking

Perez, you and your collegues have my utmost sympathy, I hope it improves for you.

SINGAPURCANAC: sounds like your T&C's suck, but nothing justifies the travesty going on in spain at the moment

[SINGAPURCANAC]

thanks for simpaty,but I messed some other points,
-ATCO's job still is premium job.1000 aplications per available seat
- I like my job,and I would like to retire as atcos if it is possible,
- salary is three to four times average salary
-and last thing,but the most crucial:
The lowest paid,aps atco in Europe. Everyone else has better T&C in Europe.

I am fighting hard,for each issue mentioned above for ages, but we should be at least honest at the end of the day.
No one force us to work as an ATCO. I haven't seen mass resignation.And of course it would not happen in Europe.

[p_perez]

Dear SINGAPURCANAC:

honestly, I get no confort knowing that your conditions at work are, in some cases, worst than ours in Spain (btw, where are you working at?).

I really hope that you didn´t expect me to be any happier if we were whipped twice at work, just because they whipped you more! And I also hope that it is not your desire that every ATCO in the world has your same conditions at work!

When I applied for ATC school in Madrid, we were almost 7000 applicants for 150 seats. After 22 months at school, with a monthly pay of 150 € (thank God my wife had a job to pay the mortage), we were offered a contract with AENA under certain conditions. These conditions are the ones that have been changed by law by this goverment we are suffering in Spain. It is like changing the rules in the middle of a match, just because the other team is not happy with the score. And the referee is also playing for the other team!

One important point that I didn´t put clear enough in the other message: our former 1200 hrs a year did not include vacations or training. If they were included, the total would have been 1500 hrs a year. Now it is 1670 PLUS vacations and training.

Anyway, what is really important here is the fact that all this mess is affecting SAFETY in our system. AENA (their managers) consider that the debt that grew up to 13.000 million € since 2004 (before that AENA had always had benefits) is more important than SAFETY. And we ATCO´s are suffering this philosophy.

Best wishes for your profession, wherever you are ...


Saludos!

P. S. thanks for the sympathy, coolbeans. Very much welcome!

[Capetonian]

The average basic salary is €200,000 (£176k), but most workers double or triple this by working overtime.

I have heard from several sources (the quote above happens to be from the Daily Mail and we all know that they tend to twist facts), but I know a Spanish air traffic controller and whilst I have not asked her how much she earns, she does live extremely well and has told us that she earns far more than her husband who is an avionics engineer with many years of experience, and he is well into 6 figures.

Whilst I would certainly not condone any actions which could impact on safety, such as imposing longer working hours, and so on, the conditions outlined above should, I think, be taken within the context of this very high salary. I am not in any way belittling the work that the controllers do and the huge responsibility they have.

[Blockla]

Well that didn't take long....

Capetonian, are you seriously believing something from the daily mail? According to the same source the Irish ATCs average €230K too, not! The Spaniards were on a good wicket, now they are on a bloody lousy one from my reading of it.

Singa - The race for the bottom has not commenced in this profession, yet. You don't have to have sympathy for someone doing better than you, but at least show some empathy for those now suffering from imposed draconian conditions.

P_perez, good luck with your plight. Imposed work rules, practices and salaries are never a good outcome; it sounds as if you guys have gone from a 'great job' to a very average one (perhaps even a poor job). Hopefully your union can get in there and fight for you both publicly and politically. The PR battle is always important and the truth gets in the way of good copy. Don't rely on public empathy you can't even get that from your own profession if reading this thread gives any clues. Safety, safety, safety is your PR message. Hours of work (fatigue), no social life, forced overtime, strict medical standards, lack of experience on the boards leading to publicly available statistics (ie increased incident rates and/or near misses etc) are good places to start. Get IFATCA involved too, they have lots of resources about 'average' working conditions and safety expectations/outcomes.

It's good political pressure to explain why you are below average (in whatever category) even though you'd consider yourselves to be a 'first world' country.

PS I can't believe you haven't downed tools yet? Is that what they want you to do, Reagan solution then pending?

[eagleflyer]

What I find the most shocking fact is that non-operational personel decides about operational problems. How on earth can some bean-counter decide which runway is in use or which sectors are to be consolidated etc????

About the contract details: I can understand everyone is upset about the changes. Anybody would be with so many goodies taken away. What I seriously criticize is AENA being able to call you to work at very short notice and with seemingly no limitations concerning working days in a row. In our outfit we don´t hear those calls anymore if we don´t want to go. It´s still mostly on a voluntary basis, because management knows sick days would rise if they forced people to work.

I wish you guys down south all the best, let´s hope you´ll make it through the busy period without serious happenings. However I´ll still give direct routings for the southbound aircraft! With the slots creating a 15-minute-window the average shortcut won´t hurt at all. I don´t think you can make up more than 10 minutes on a 2hrs-flight just by shortcuts. At 420kts that would mean a saved distance of 70 miles...that´s rather unlikely to be possible.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

@p perez,blocka,

It seems that you missed somwhere my point. I hadn't idea to say that everyone contracts should be as mine. Also I didn't say that my contract is bad,I just said that even as the lowest paid aps atco in europe I am far away from bad living standard. Actually, 99% of workforce is not even close to atcos T&C.

I just pointed out that your contract changes is nothing special .
In liberal or social capitalism, it is the fundament of all relations.
Conditions aren't fixed.
If you said that you need fixed conditions I think that for this you have to go North Korea,at least.
So if we agree that conditions aren't fixed than we have to accept changes.
Management realised that they could reduce T&C.
How many spanish atcos have left the job since changes ?
I will tell you. ZERO
And you know better than me why the number is zero.
Because,
-There is no better place in the whole world,to be an atco,(when you count everything,salary,lifestyle,general conditions,,and so on.....)

So that is the reason,why I said that if you aren't satisfied I will take your position.
Of course such option is not available for me,unfortunatelly .... :{

And you know all those stuff,but it is easier to cry rather than to smile....

Anyhow best regards to spanish atcos,and if I could help,I will be glad to do so
:ok:

[Capetonian]

Capetonian, are you seriously believing something from the daily mail?

I hinted that I was sceptical, but I feel that it must be based on truth, and I do have other evidence, as mentioned, that the Spanish ATCs do earn a pretty impressive salary - and my information is current.

[Blockla]

Capetonian, yes I did copy your skepticism but you then went on to "believe it" and publish itdo earn a pretty impressive salary Perhaps you meant to say "did earn"? Things have changed, no?

99% of workforce is not even close to atcos T&C.I'm afraid you are selling the community way too short. Most people I know get far more notice than 10 days for their roster and are not effectively 'on call' on every day off without the right to say no I'm not coming in.

Anyway, back to topic - Good luck to all in Spain, you're gonna need it.

[Nightstop]

Question for p_perez:

We're vectored onto the LOC 33L from Tobek having been instructed to maintain 220 kts. That Controller then changes us to the next frequency, he/she then clears us for the ILS. Are we expected to maintain 220 kts until instructed otherwise, or should we reduce anyway in accordance with the AIP to 180 kts at 12nm and 160 at 6nm. Problem is, the verbal instruction to reduce speed often never comes, which can be embarassing :{

[LEGAL TENDER]

you hear a lot of impressive figures, but what actually IS the basic salary of a Spanish ATCO? No overtime, no frills.. just the "entry" level for a valid ATCO. Something that equates in the UK at just over £ 45k a year (in nats)

[Nightstop]

OK p_perez, here's another question while you're thinking about the answer to my first above:

We're vectored on to the 18L LOC still at 11,000 ft QNH (9000 ft AGL) at BERUC (21.4 nm final). We decide the approach can't be completed safely from this altitude so we decide to discontinue the approach. Are you expecting us to:

(a) Maintain 11,000 ft and fly the standard missed approach tracks?
(b) Descend to 8,000 ft (the missed approach holding altitude) and fly the standard missed approach tracks?
(c) Change to TWR as instructed and ask for instructions?
(d) Remain on your frequency and set transponder code 7600?
(e) Hold in our present position?

[aldegar]

Legal Tender, you want to know our salary? Then ask our P.M. José Blanco, because we have no idea. We still don't know what we'll be paid at the end of the month. Since the decree our salary has been reduced every month and we don't know when it's going to stop. Rumours are we'll end up earning between 3.000 € and 2.000 € depending if we work in a big ACC or a small TWR, and we are allready close to those figures.

Actually, next month I'll probably earn around 1.500 €, because I recently enjoyed a 15 days leave for having a child and I've just received a letter denying me those days and therefore they'll be discounted from my next pay. That's a right for EVERY worker in Spain... except for ATCOs apparently.

Singapurcanac, you really made me laugh when you said that there is no better place in the whole world to be an atco... In just a few days we've had four anxiety attacks (in LERS, LECP, LECS and LEAL), two of them had to be evacuated by an ambulance to the hospital. Last week in a sector where the maximum capacity was 26 acft/hour we had 34 acft in 30 minutes plus an emergency... and the high season is about to start and the "bean-counters" don't care to overload the sectors and keep chosing the runways in use that allows more acft per hour despite the wind or other factors.

It's true so far nobody has quitted the job yet, but it is also true that more than 20% of the staff is on medical leave. Many of us are thinking about quitting the job, we are just waiting to see how the situation develops (waiting for the trials), but we are not going to stand this situation for ever, at least not me.

I used to like this job, but my wife and kid are more important to me. Having only three or four days off a month (and still having the possibility of being forced to work those days) is the perfect way of breaking up a family.

And, the most important thing of all, it's a matter of time that one of us is going to get involved in an ACCIDENT.

[beaver liquor]

Whats happening in Spain sounds absolutely scandalous, and whats more, if the accounts are accurate then anyone interested in safety must hear the alarm bells ringing...

Of our T&Cs in NATS, one that many of us hold dearest is our repeating roster, with the ability to plan our home lives accordingly. To take that away would create a lot of stress in many households. Not exactly what you need when going in for a shift.

I guess this is a real impact of the austerity measures being introduced in some EU countries. Good luck to my Spanish counterparts, I hope you have better news soon.

[Tarq57]

Whats happening in Spain sounds absolutely scandalous, and whats more, if the accounts are accurate then anyone interested in safety must hear the alarm bells ringing...
+1, scandalous indeed.
Alarm bells and whistles all sound fairly strident to me, and I'm on the other side of the world.

Regardless of how good the past conditions have been, I am disappointed that some controllers in other places may be prepared to "turn the other cheek" in regard to what appears to be happening. No matter how bad conditions may be in your own countries, this sort of treatment by the employer, with apparent government backing, is untenable, and is likely to result in Bad Things Happening.

To my Spanish counterparts, all I can suggest is that you keep a good paper trail (or email trail) of recalls/hours worked, work practices/training shortfalls you perceive to be unsafe, and formally protest each time you are required to work a shift that you would prefer not to. It may make no difference, but at least there is a record.

If I was on holiday in the area, I would probably choose to fly around rather than through Spanish airspace, as a SLF. Inconvenience or not.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

I could not understand some comments.Thread is shifting from "Situation in Spain" to "What SINGA actually said" .
If I understand properly point of thread is
-Deteriorating of T&C in Spain

and according to main idea of thread,I clearly said:
-that even with significant deteriorating of T&C ,Spain still remains as the best possible place to be an ATCO.

If you don't believe to me than put ad on flightglobal for vacant Spanish position,and you will see thousands of applications per available seat. Of course if they avoid number of restrictions such as: university degree, Spanish language, no salary until validation and so on.

Also as someone who is fighting on daily basis with T&C issues from my experience I know that only one sentece in this direction is applicable:

"If you think that you deserve more ,go to open labor market and check it! "
This sentence is especially applicable in European Union,for citizen of EU! :ok:

That is the beginning and end of all T&C stories.
Unfortunately.

[andrijander]

My best wishes to all my colleagues in Spain. I haven't been directly in touch with all of you (obviously difficult since you guys are so many) but if you need anything please let me know.

Singa, yes, the thread is regarding spanish T&C's, however you made a remark here, therefore it is open for debate. It feels quite insulting that, after the company gets to change the T&C's of their own accord (no negotiation) you deny them of their right to complain and try to do something about it. I do not doubt that you're worse off, unluckily for you, but that doesn't mean that AENA and the spanish government have acted well. Feels like you playing a game and the rules change half way so you cannot win. Just because you were doing well, too damn well.

Pd: como ya le he comentado a otros, por ahora en Maastricht no buscan a mas, pero estoy convencido de que es algo coyuntural (crisis+volcán). Pero si vais a dar el salto, mirad aqui regularmente: EUROCONTROL - Job Opportunities for Qualified Air Traffic Controllers (http://www.eurocontrol.int/muac/public/standard_page/atco_careers_qualified.html)

Good luck, your fight is our fight, if you loose maybe we will all loose in the long term if other "goverments" choose to copy Blanco.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

after the company gets to change the T&C's of their own accord (no negotiation) you deny them of their right to complain and try to do something about it.

I have just said that we aren't able to do anything. I saw it in my short carrier numerous times.
If Spanish government had idea to negotiate they would do it.
It is more than obvious that Government had NO idea to negotiate.
Does Government(or regime if you would like to call them properly :E) have power to do so,even in Europe?
YES.
Is it correct way in today' Europe?
NO
But,what really workers could do in such cases?
Revolution?
We need it ,but majority finds it as a non-necessary move,so there is no revolution.
What else ?
To accept changes,because...(you or whoever wants ,name it)
Or,
Change company.
life is so simple,but people like to cry over destiny instead of doing proper steps.
It is human nature.

And to return to Spanish case,I will tell what Spanish atcos will find if they try to change something.
-Send CV to prosperous employer.
Than they will realize:
- That at Middle East,atco earns great salary,but also
-they work in environment where modern safety doesn't exist(ask Vercigetorix)
- you will go to jail if you made huge mistake,
-no contract guarantees,
-no one ask you anything,
-you are supposed to work,and only work
- home is 5000km far awayat least,and you will face situation that you have to go but there is no option to do so.
-Climate
- family issues,wife usually stands at home,children has to change school and even in some cases school system has to be changed
- in cases of some cities ,everything but ecology
-and main question what after 3/5 years of contract.....

than when you put on paper everything, you will realize all those and many other hidden issues for only 2000/3000 euros per month,if it remains in your pocket ,
it could be easily to understand why
Murcia TWR for 1000 euros per month is so good option. :ok:

the only real problem is that management also knows this so they act properly. :{

[p_perez]

Hello!

Wow! so many things to say, and also so many thanks to give (andrijander, Tarq57, beaver liquor ...), I´ll try to answer and comment briefly.

First, thank you very much to all the people that showed their solidarity with us here in "banana republic" Spain. It is hard to read about these conditions, but believe me, much harder to live and work under them. There is a detail I did not mention, but can also help you to make yourself an idea of the kind of politicians that rule Spain nowdays: Mr "Pepiño" Blanco, the Spanish minister of Development, responsible for the planning of all this abuse with the help of american company McKinsey (read about them at McKinsey & Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinsey_%26_Company) ), they also helped with Railtrack, the British railway company, and with mass suicidal´s France Telecom.

Well, from a personal point of view, what´s curious at least here is that Mr Blanco´s formation is limited to High School: he tried to study Law, but never completed 1st year. This guy is responsible for all public works in Spain and a possible successor for disastrous Mr. Zapatero. All of us ATCO´s in Spain have, at least, completed 3 years of university, and most of us have a complete carreer.

For SINGAPURCANAC: man, you must be the comic relief of this thread. Guys: we have a humorist with us! Really, with increasing 5.000.000 unemployed in Spain (more than 20%), you want us to resign our job just because they abuse us? The number of ATCO´s that have resigned is YOUR messure of the abuse we are suffering? I´m complaining because I had decent working conditions similar to those my colleagues in France, Germany, Italy or Portugal have. It is not salary our main concern, it´s "only" that we are buying too many tickets for the airplane-accident lottery, and that is a game we don´t want to play!

Many of us have tried to apply for an ATC job in other countries, I was even willing to go to our antipodes at NZ with my wife and kids! That is a better messure of how pissed off we are in Spain.


Regarding our salary, I don´t really understand the curiosity about this matter. I hope it has nothing to be with the idea that the higher the pay, the bigger the abuse you must endure. Our salary was very high in the past (before february 5th) because we worked sooo much voluntary overtime. Our 1200 hrs/year came from the fact that we used to be state workers: in Spain, state workers labour 1820 hrs/year (52 weeks x 35 hrs), but they don´t work night shifts, nor weekends, nor 15 national/autonomous/provincial/local holydays. The Spanish goverment had 2 choices here: pay ATCO´s more for those hrs. or discount them from our yearly amount: they chose the later. So that´s why our yearly hrs. became 1200 efective (not including vacations or trainning), even after our employer changed to AENA and we were no longer state workers.

In the last years, with the rise in air traffic, AENA had another choice to make: train and hire new controllers, or offer well paid voluntary overtime to the ATCO´s already working. They once again chose the later. The average yearly hrs in the last years have been around 1750 hrs/year/ATCO, VOLUNTARY OVERTIME. Not everybody accepted overtime, not all the time either.

What they have now done is make that overtime mandatory for everyone. And the salary has been reduced up to a 70% for those hrs. In my case, just to satisfy someone´s curiosity around here, last pay was 3500 €, in a month were I "enjoyed" 2 mandatory recalls with less than 24 hrs notice, and knowing that they included a 14 day complementary pay which will be eliminated from next month´s pay. How much will I get next month? 1st, I don´t know; 2nd, less than 3500 € for sure.


For Nightstop: I´m sorry, but I don´t work al Madrid TMA, so I can´t help you with that specific matter. But have in mind what I said of the particular situation they are going through: 30% of the most experienced ATCO´s working in Madrid TMA (app) have been retired from operational, and have been replaced by not so experienced colleagues that come from enroute positions or non-operational jobs outside the ACC. Give them time to get the expertise, please.


Saludos!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

@p perez,
1. I am not your enemy!
2. I am not against ATCOs,because I am atco itself,

I have just tried to explain situation that you have already faced or you will encounter very soon.

All those things ,previously mentioned, I saw more than once in my aviation carrier. Needles to say that any single atcos help us/me in such cases,but neverless we also didn't cry publicly.

If you count my 15 years struggle and fight with management about the same issues, than you will accept that my opinion is not nice for ears but works in real life.
So for particular Spanish case it will be:

-ATCOs will accept changes,without too many resistance ,because,previously they earned a lot of money and bought enough properties for rent,or shares in well established international companies or investment funds, or there is huge amount money at the bank account,at least,which will give an extra revenues on already high salaries in situation where majority of people are on the edge.

-Once again it will attract newcomers to apply for job in your company that will give idea to management that conditions are quite good,and at least they could think about reducing them for some less important units.

-Some atcos will refuse such way and will try somewhere else,than they will realize numbers and conditions as stated earlier plus that many countries worldwide do not recognize Spanish licenses or there are a waiting list with hundreds of native English speakers atcos with a little bit more priority than non native English speakers.

-It will remain number of active ATCOs at the stable level so management will once again pointed out that T&C are at least adequate,with all implication....

- Situation will be quite negative,but accident free,or at least there won't be direct connection between accident and staff level or staff salary.

there will be a few more issues but if you ask yourself is it already looks like CATCH 22,yes it is.
And you,me or anyone else is not in position to change conditions.
So that is the true. Not nice for ears but works in real life.
Anyhow best regards :ok:

[Del Prado]

Our salary was very high in the past (before february 5th) because we worked sooo much voluntary overtime. Our 1200 hrs/year came from the fact that we used to be state workers: in Spain, state workers labour 1820 hrs/year (52 weeks x 35 hrs), but they don´t work night shifts, nor weekends, nor 15 national/autonomous/provincial/local holydays. The Spanish goverment had 2 choices here: pay ATCO´s more for those hrs. or discount them from our yearly amount: they chose the later. So that´s why our yearly hrs. became 1200 efective (not including vacations or trainning), even after our employer changed to AENA and we were no longer state workers.

In the last years, with the rise in air traffic, AENA had another choice to make: train and hire new controllers, or offer well paid voluntary overtime to the ATCO´s already working. They once again chose the later. The average yearly hrs in the last years have been around 1750 hrs/year/ATCO, VOLUNTARY OVERTIME. Not everybody accepted overtime, not all the time either.

What they have now done is make that overtime mandatory for everyone. And the salary has been reduced up to a 70% for those hrs. In my case, just to satisfy someone´s curiosity around here, last pay was 3500 €, in a month were I "enjoyed" 2 mandatory recalls with less than 24 hrs notice, and knowing that they included a 14 day complementary pay which will be eliminated from next month´s pay. How much will I get next month? 1st, I don´t know; 2nd, less than 3500 € for sure.


This makes very sobering reading, particularly to anyone that works in a short staffed Ops room where overtime is quickly becoming the norm.

Thanks for being so frank p_perez, good luck to you and your colleagues.

[p_perez]

Hello!

just a brief message with an example of how nonsense is reaching such high levels in our profession lately ...

A female coleague working at LEMD (Barajas´TWR) was "granted" by AENA with one of those mandatory recalls I already told you about: she was just about to finish her morning shift, when someone from the staff of HR visited the TWR and told her that she had to return to work that night. My colleague is themother of a baby, and couldn´t find anybody with such a short notice to babysit him. So the only solution she found is to attend the service that night, taking the baby with her. Of course, she had to take the craddle and the feeding bottle, along with the meal for the dinner. The baby had to go through the security screening process, were the surprised security personnel assigned him an ID badge for his overnight stay.

By now, you migh think I went bananas, and all this is nothing but invention, well here you go:

http://www.controladoresaereos.org/wp-content/uploads/teje_1.jpg


More news soon!

[S76Heavy]

Messing about safety critical staff T&Cs is clearly a flight safety issue. How switched on will a mother be with her child with her while on an unexpected shift? How alert will a controller be if unable to plan their rest and social life because they are at the whim of bean counters who think of it as a big chess game?

Never mind the financial aspect (which is cause for a lot of stress by itself), the duty/rest cycles being messed about should surely be cause for international alarm.
Why are Spain not taken to task over the issue in the European arena? How is it that AENA can neglect studies about human performance in safety critical positions?
Where is IFALPA for instance in this matter? They should be issuing black stars for lack of well rested controllers..

I'm sure the government are counting on the sentiment of the people who feel that the controllers have nothing to complain about regarding their salaries and jobs, but this is a serious breech of safety and perhaps people should worry about the chances of big lumps of metal falling out of the sky..

[10W]

Unbelievable.

Perhaps your union should point your management towards the UK legal requirements which are placed on both employers and ATC Licence holders (known as SRATCOH).

It can be found in Appendix D here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap670.pdf).

I believe the case you mention would be illegal under UK law.

It was brought in to prevent fatigue and human factors problems associated with ATC and shift working. As we are all supposed to be aligning in Europe, maybe it's time the Spanish government got on board with its safety obligations ?

If I was the lady in question, I think I may have developed a stomach bug an hour before my night duty and let the management pick up the pieces.

[eagleflyer]

at the beginning of the night shift and would have had to be sure it had really gone before returning to work...maybe after five days or so.

How much rest do you think she had before the night shift with a baby to attend at home? This is really worrying...

[saintex2002]

Dear eagletflyer , u seem to have definitely understood the spanish concern... :rolleyes:
To p_perez, keep on truckin' and suerte.... :ok:

[p_perez]

CORRECTION: In my previous post, I made a mistake with the gender of the controller that had to take HIS son to one of the LEMD TWR´s for a mandatory night service: it was a MALE colleague. The rest of the information is correct. Another case ocurred 2 weeks ago, this time at Madrid ACC: a female colleague, mother of 2 children, had to take them both with her to spend the night at the ACC while she had to comply with the forced night shift imposed by AENA. At Sevilla ACC, 3/4 weeks ago, a mother of a 9 month old baby girl that was finishing her morning shift was told by AENA staff that she had to return that night to work from 2200 till 0800 next day; in this case, it coincided that her husband is also a ATCO at Sevilla TWR, and had night service that finished at 0230. This time, fortunately, grandparents where at hand and the girls could sleep in her craddle at home. In all 3 cases, AENA management was informed of the special circumstances. No palliative action was taken.


Hello!

thank you for your interest in our situation. I can assure you that we all have the conviction that the trend is in-crescendo regarding AENA´s pressure on us. With the summer season in it´s beginning, air traffic on the rise as well as sick leaves, the situation can only get worse during the next 3 months. We allready have people with a disciplinary expedient opened by AENA for refusing to pick up the notification of a forced service and there for, not attending it. This disciplinary expedient can lead to being fired.

We have fought, and are still fighting, in the legal terrain in Spanish courts, but Justice in Spain is strongly influenced by politics. The first ruling in our battle to reach the Constitutional Court had an adverse ruling: Mr. Ricardo Bodas, president of the Social Hall of the National Court, found no trace of unconstitutionality in the law against Spanish ATCO´s. This judge is the former Director General of Relations between the Spanish Goverment and the Justice Administration (a political position), and became judge by a special procedure (called "3er turno" = "3rd turn") that allows the goverment to nominate any lawyer as judge at own discretion.

We are also giving the International arena a chance, and presently we have open procedures at the European Parliament, at the European Commission, and at the Luxemburg Court. USCA will also file a complaint at the International Labour Organization (ILO) for the unilaterall modification by AENA and the Spanish goverment of the T&C´s between AENA and ATCO´s.

Several organizations have published statements about our situation, like IFATCA (http://www.ifatca.org/press/080210.pdf), IFALPA (http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Level1/Safety%20Bulletins/2010/10SAB15%20-%20Spanish%20ATC%20dispute.pdf) OR ATCEUC (http://www.atceuc.org/upload/ATC-EUC/ATCEUC-Documents/308/atceuc-press-release-on-the-situation-of-the-air-traffic-controllers-in-spain.pdf), and several other in Spain.

Next june 18th we have elections in USCA, and hopefully our new leaders will reconduct this disaster, recovering dignity for the proffesionals, and common sense and safety concern for the AENA management.

Saludos!

[beaver liquor]

P Perez,

Thank you for sharing your latest intolerable situation.

How come this photo hasnt ended up on the front page of El Mundo or El Pais?

Or have the government completely turned public opinion against ATCOs?

[LH2]

FWIW

How come this photo hasnt ended up on the front page of El Mundo or El Pais?

...not sure which photo that would be, assuming you are not talking figuratively, but I would assume the media do not feel like playing into the hands of the controller's union. I do not base this on any specific information, just making a general remark.

Never mind the financial aspect (which is cause for a lot of stress by itself), the duty/rest cycles being messed about should surely be cause for international alarm.


Indeed.

Why are Spain not taken to task over the issue in the European arena? How is it that AENA can neglect studies about human performance in safety critical positions?


I understand this might have changed as of late, but until recently it was not AENA but the controllers themselves who set their own work schedule. Some if not most of them would regularly work multiple back-to-back shifts in order to get longer spells of time off (or earn rather valuable overtime, depending on the size of their mortgage :E). I imagine it might be a bit awkward to complain about being told to work back-to-backs when you used to do that of your own accord.

Where is IFALPA for instance in this matter? They should be issuing black stars for lack of well rested controllers..

Agreed (whatever a black star is in this context). However, the situation is not at all new, as explained above.

Over in the Rumours section someone suggests (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-5.html#post5753329) ATCOs from outside Spain should take a jumpseat ride into Madrid before stepping in defence of the Southern element. I cannot but second that man's impressions on the other thread. It doesn't have to be MAD, btw, with a couple of exceptions any other AENA airport will do. I think you might struggle to hear of anyone with any experience of flying in Spain who will be sympathetic to their controller's grievance.

[aldegar]

I've just received my schedule for July. AENA has started programming what we call "zulus", in which the same day you work the morning and the night shift (and usually also means working in the afternoon the day before and the day after...).

The good thing is that I have few chances of getting mandatory recalls... because I have no space in my schedule for them because I work almost every day (in 33 days, from the 7th of june to the 10th of july,only two days off).

And I have a new born baby and my wife starts working again in a few days (on shifts also). I'll have to start checking with the Security staff what are the requirements to get my son an ID card. AENA (which is the same as writing the spanish government) has really done an excellent job in ruining my family life.

[Jagohu]

I've just received my schedule for July. AENA has started programming what we call "zulus", in which the same day you work the morning and the night shift (and usually also means working in the afternoon the day before and the day after...).

We used to do that in Maastricht, but abandoned it in January - it's a huge relief that you don't have to work the morning before the night - it completely screws up your biorythm.
I hope your situation will get better soon!

[undervaluedATC]

I've just received my schedule for July. AENA has started programming what we call "zulus", in which the same day you work the morning and the night shift

Airservices has been inflicting (or allowing us to inflict ourselves - depending on your viewpoint) with that very thing for at least the last 10 years :{

[Tarq57]

@undervaluedATC
Same situation here.
Except that we get slightly more than 2 days off in every 33.
How about you?

Isn't anybody remotely concerned about the fatigue issue with these controllers?
Or do most PPrune users just prefer to snipe at their perceived shortcomings?
This will probably end in tears.

[10W]

Why don't the Spanish ATC Union speak to the UK CAA about the UK's legal setup (SRATCOH) ? Ask them why it was brought in (to combat fatigue) and how it works in practice ... very well. :ok:

Or ask the union to forward a copy of a typical Spanish roster to the UK union (Prospect) and some of their experts could detail all the various ways in which it would be breaking UK law.

Time for air safety to take the driving seat and force Europe to introduce a scheme regulating hours for ATC staff. It doesn't have to be exactly the UK system, but that would be a good starting point and hard to better.

[p_perez]

Hello!

July rosters have just been published for all ATCO´s in Spain. Nothing new: as expected, many services with few (VERY FEW) days off, vacation periods granted (or not) at AENA´s discretion, abundant "zulu"-days (morning and night service in the same day - 17 hr. work time in a 24 hr. period) ... AENA staff is refining their Machiavellianism: we have the chance of changing our shifts between colleagues; if you need it (a wedding, school activities with the kids, any other social event …), you can ask a mate to work in your place a certain day. AENA staff has to approve these shift changes. What they also do, every now and then, is endorse you an express (mandatory recall) shift precisely on those days you liberated yourself from work. AENA is the absolute owners of your life, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Take note, if you are offered an ATC job in Spain abroad, of what some of your conditions would be.

I will try to clarify the direct routing/non-filed FL point regarding our present situation: sector capacity has been put to a strain since late 2009 in Spain. On December 28th, 2009 (Spanish “Fools Day”), Spanish ATC Authority declared that the Maximum Sector Capacity (MSC) would result from increasing a 10% the Declared Sector Capacity (DSC) during a period not superior to 1 hour. This means that in Spain, sector traffic is not regulated until it´s capacity is expected to pass 110% declared capacity. For example, in my ACC, we have sectors with a DSC of 35 TFCs/hr: a regulation is not imposed until 39 TFCs/hr are expected. Often in summer (very often indeed …) those sectors work with 38 TFCs/hr: any direct routing, or takeoff before CTOT, or not-expected FL can mean a serious overload. ATCO´s in that situation are helpless, and do their best to solve a situation that, this is the funny part, probably has been caused by a good-willing colleague in a previous sector.

You already know about the Eurocontrol document regardingFlight Plan & ATFCM Adherence (EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence (http://eurocontrol.int/dmean/public/standard_page/FPL_ATFCM_adherence.html)). There´s another Spanish document which also enforces this matter. It is the response of Mr. Juan Alberto Cózar Maldonado (AENA´s Quality, Safety and Certification Director) to Mr. Juan Rosas Díaz (AESA´s Safety Director), dated on april 15th, 2010. This is an excerpt:

“(…) Note that these failures in FMS (Flow Management System) are not caused by the FMS itself; overloads mentioned are caused by diverse factors, like shortcuts in their expected routes, clearance to FL´s not filed in their FP´s, and takeoffs before their calculated takeoff time, all these acts cause that certain sectors receive more TFC´s than expected, at a different timing than that calculated by FMS”

I can scan the document if needed, just need to know how to post it if you want.


All Spanish controllers receive a very big book when they start working, called RCA (Air Circulation Regulation). It is our Bible, it´s the RULE we legally have to follow in our job. There is an Air Safety Law (LSA) from 2003, that can impose very high economic penalties over ATCO´s that don´t work BY THE RULE in case there is an incident/accident. We shouldn´t be ranted for following the RULE. And for all those pilots all of a sudden worried about saving the planet, mostly from UK (in their profile), want to talk about BP and the Gulf of Mexico for a change?


I´ve noticed 3 types of response to our situation from readers of this forum:

Understanding: what can I say, “thank you so much!” (specially 10W for his great contributions) It is very rewarding to see the important part of the message (the one regarding SAFETY) has been delivered. We can live with lower salaries, we can work with not so good T&C´s, but all this abuse must stop, ´cause it´s affecting our work in a very negative way. And the consequences are just starting to be noticed.
Jealousy?? Some keep on talking about high salaries and good T&C´s, even as an excuse for the present punishment against ATCO´s. They keep ignoring that all the “good times” WERE, and ARE NOT any more, and that even in the past, it was AENA´s decision to pay for overtime instead of hiring new controllers. The media campaign Spanish government and AENA conducted against us in the national and international arena should be studied in the future as an extraordinary example of how to plant false statements prior to a governmental abuse. Once again, imposed arbitrary working conditions that come very close to SLAVERY, can only harm the SAFETY of air traffic in Spain.
HATE: some examples from the thread http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-6.html (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-6.html) :“Just wish some of there controller's could speak proper English that's understandable and actually speak into the microphone on the headset rather than talking into a bucket...” Whispering Giant (http://www.pprune.org/members/29004-whispering-giant)

"and in Madrid, I have witnessed some of the worst ATC in Europe, from some of the most highly paid.”
"When flying, turns away of 90 degrees to allow spanish aircraft over/undertake. So frustrating but sadly you grow to accept that this is the Spanish way."
“They are the worlds most skilled controllers - at diverting other aircraft off track so that Spanish aircraft can over/undertake!
If only they were fair and honourable in their activities; they would then be respected by all, rather than laughed at.”
"and in Madrid, I have witnessed some of the worst ATC in Europe, from some of the most highly paid."
"In Madrid you guys always put SO much effort into vectoring non spanish aircraft to allow spanish aircraft to jump the queue! if you used those skills with your general controlling, the flow rates would improve massively."
"For me and all my colleagues, the ATC in Madrid is a joke, a sad one at that.
No respect for you guys whatsoever." kick the tires (http://www.pprune.org/members/49580-kick-the-tires)

“Are Spanish ATC really among the best paid in Europe while being (one of) the worst on the European continent? What a waste of money, I'd say!” sabenaboy (http://www.pprune.org/members/38556-sabenaboy)

"10W you put a good case forward for why adherence to flight plans is important. However in this case I think it misses the point. Our Spanish colleagues are not doing this to fix the system. They are doing this because it supports their dispute with the Spanish government to protect the kind of things that are ironically refered to worldwide in industrial relations language as 'spanish practices'." lederhosen (http://www.pprune.org/members/183660-lederhosen)

"if the Germans and French and Swiss and even the Italians can get English down and use it why cant the Spanish controllers! there a joke."
“there a bunch of useless ****s”
"the bigger issue for me is THEY CANT SPEAK ENGLISH!"
"but they really really cant understand English."
"but I would trust my wallet to a Gypsy before I trust my life to air tragedy in spain! there a bunch of useless ****s" zerotohero (http://www.pprune.org/members/264786-zerotohero)

"The level of maturity of some ATCO's in the south of Europe is directly proportional to their english level." maybepilot (http://www.pprune.org/members/19341-maybepilot)

"Thought it was because of my callsign! Full sids and stars into Madrid with lights traffic. Was also denied a higher cruise level because we were filed at a lower level!! Totally unprofessional." TolTol (http://www.pprune.org/members/107742-toltol)

"It's a bunch of amateurs taking care of serious business." Fuel Dump (http://www.pprune.org/members/316519-fuel-dump)

Come on! We are not all that bad, are we? Anyway, no comments on this from me, guess I received a “different” education from my family, because there´s nothing personal in the previos example, uh guys?

Give a look to the trailer of a documentary financed by some Spanish ATCO´s. It´s still a teaser, and only in Spanish, but you can see the faces of some of my colleagues. Who knows, some may even consider the idea that we are human beings after all!

www.youtube.com/v/zLy1LHrqsHY (http://www.youtube.com/v/zLy1LHrqsHY)


Saludos!

[kick the tires]

perez - an interesting if one sided posting.

Why have you chosen not to comment on the 'hate' postings? Do you not recognise the comments and situations?

I think a more appropriate title would be "frustrations' rather than hate.

[aldegar]

Kick the tyres, I have no problems in commenting the "hate" postings, and no, I don't recognize the comments and situations.

- First of all, nobody is perfect and EVERYBODY makes mistakes. Spanish ATCOS could also write a veeeeeery long list of complaints about pilots (spanish and from abroad).

- About our english, well it's very easy to criticize being from the UK... My english will obviously not be as good as yours no matter how hard I try, but I don't see those communication problems in my ACC. I could also complain about english speaking pilots not sticking to standard aeronautical english and of non-english speaking pilots with a very poor level of english. And sometimes the "station calling say again" has nothing to do with our level of english but with the poor quality of our radios or because we were busy coordinating with other sectors/controllers (yes, controllers also speak between them). By the way, we were required a very high level of english when we got in, but in ten years working in AENA I haven't received any training to maintain my level of english (and believe me, I don't intend to spend my 2 days off out of every 33 attending english classes).

- Spanish aircraft don't have priority, whoever has to be first will be first no matter the nationality (check the "you know you work in atc when" thread, about pilots being like kids...)

- The procedures in Spain are awful, but that's not our fault, we are also victims.

- About making the full SIDs and STARs and sticking strictly to the final flight level in the FPL, we've been threatened by AENA to BE FIRED if we don't comply. And in the current situation in which our sectors are constantly being overloaded, I just can't risk to give a direct to somebody and cause an overload to a colleague (I'm also an overloaded sector sufferer). We are working in the limit and precisely yesterday I suffered a very critical situation while working due to this.


And I could keep on writing, but I have to spend some time with my baby son before I go back to work in a few hours (again).

[nelsonmadiba]

I`m disgusted in seeing how bad things have gone in spain,but I`m even more disgusted in seeing that nobody OUTSIDE spain has done anything to support our spanish colleagues.

we`re here talking about single sky,bla bla and all that cr@p,but still nobody is going to help them.

their problem could become our problem one day,and if we don`t help each other there`s no way we`ll all live a better life.

greetz

[30W]

p_perez,

Firstly, as a professional pilot I find the working terms and conditions being imposed upon yourselves an absolute disgrace, and at direct conflict with the interests of Flight Safety!

Use the safety conditions of other nations to fight your case, as 10W suggests, looking at the UK SCRATOCH document is an excellent example.

I have always found Spanish ATC to be helpful and courteous - long may it remain :ok:

With regards to the examples quoted regarding priorties given to national aircraft, I can only say that on many occasions I have experienced exactly the same as them, not so much from ACC's, but definately from TMA and airfield controllers :( This gives an extremely poor pilot perception of Spanish ATC. This isn't necessarily fair, but it only has to happen a few times for a perception to be formed.

Before I'm shot down here by ATCO's for not knowing the 'full' picture at the time, on occasions you MAY well be correct. On many occasions the picture is indeed VERY clear. Examples:-

1. Having been followed 15 in trail by a Spanish aircraft for most of route, handed over to destination TMA sector in trail, followed by full STAR and huge speed reduction. National carrier behind instructed direct to Initial Approach Fix and told 320kt. Yes, we land number 2 to the national.

2. In the hold at LEPA only a few years ago, holding in progress for arrivals.
Spanish carrier 2 levels above in stack instructed to turn OFF transponder and given directions for leaving the stack. TCAS shows traffic dissapeared, and it's seen visually departing stack on approach sequence. It landed nicely ahead of foreign carriers holding.

I'm English, and work for a UK airline, but I do speak Spanish and as always all ATC/Spanish Carrier RT carried out in Spanish so that they think no one else knows whats 'going on'.... Unfortunately not always the case....

On both occasions have phoned the local unit supervisor once on the ground, both seemed embarassed that someone had understood what had been done, and offered no credible explanation. Incident 2 filed fromally to AENA through proper channels, who failed to investigate and report, as they fail to do on most occasions.

These are just 2 of MANY examples I have experienced inside Spanish airspace.....

My profession has plenty of examples of bad pilots, bad airmanship, which leads to some ATCO's as a generally bad perception of pilots. I suggest that we BOTH suffer from the same problems regarding perception, and that we all accept as usual the minority can badly tarnish the reputation of the majority....

My full support for your national situation, and my FULL support for SAFE and sensible working time practices to be reinstated URGENTLY.

Best wishes to you and your colleagues!!

30W

[aldegar]

I don't know who is first in the air, but why does an aircraft HAS to be first? Did they declare a pan or a mayday? Maybe I am misunderstanding this comment but in my view aircraft are just somewhere in a queue and nobody has to be in a certain position in this queue.


737Jock, in every "queue" (or APP sequence) there is always a "first" (no Pans or Maydays needed fort that!), I don't understand your comment. Maybe I should have written "after taking in consideration all factors (distance to the field, speed, altitude, wake turbulence...) whoever has to be first will be first". About speaking only in english, I allways speak in english to spanish aircraft if the transmission also affects a non-english aircraft (traffic separations, windshear...). But you are right, it's not enough and we should allways speak in english as way of improving the situational awareness of everybody. As for Madrid Ground, it's your side of the story, I would have to listen to the other side of the frequency to make any comments of that particular situation (30W, this also applies to your comments).


Why don't the Spanish ATC Union speak to the UK CAA about the UK's legal setup (SRATCOH) ?

10W, thanks for your advices. A Decree should have been allready approved regulating all this stuff (rosters, resting periods...). Apparently (I've been told) the spanish civil aviation authorities did a "copy and paste" of a NATS document (not sure if its the SRATCOH you mention). They gave a copy to USCA (our main trade union) and AENA. The first accepted it as it was, without suggesting any ammendments, but AENA opposed to it as a whole (why change a slave force with workers with rights?), and that's why we are still waiting.

their problem could become our problem one day

Nelsonmadiba, you are right. In fact, maybe it's no coincidence that president of AENA has just joined the executive committee of CANSO. Probably they want to export our ATC system to other countries and need advice from an "expert".

Yesterday I made a safety report (I enclosed my rosters) to AESA, telling them that in 34 four days (previously I posted 33, but I was wrong) I´m only having 2 days off and my concerns about safety, as well as requesting them to take action.

And thanks to (almost) everybody for your support.

[Telstar]

Come on! We are not all that bad, are we?

P.Perez

That for me sums it up. I´ve seen some of the most downright embarrassing and dangerous controlling in Europe in Spain, encountered serious language problems and when I as a Pilot challenge anything it´s met with the most appalling attitude. You just seem to have no idea how poor your standards are and how high the standard is elsewhere e.g Germany, Britain, Denmark, Sweden.

I feel sorry for you if your terms and conditions are under threat but just go on strike, walk out and don´t come back until things are fixed, the childish way you are behaving is hard to stomach.

You talk about hate. I felt I fell into that category last week. Being held on the runway until the exact second of a CTOT, getting home at night time after an early start because of CTOTs that are **** all to do with congestion and everything to do with teacing your employers a lesson and then to top it off a serious runway incursion caused by piss poor controlling and met with an indifferent attitude. Time away from your family? What about my family? You stole almost ten hours in one week from me.

I also note that direct questions were asked about your salaries and they have been skirted around. Do Controllers in Spain earn €300,000 a year on average or not?

[aldegar]

Being held on the runway until the exact second of a CTOT

So? What are CTOTS for? You don't want us to comply with Flow? You want us to cause even more trouble to allready overloaded sectors in understaffed ACCs?

I also note that direct questions were asked about your salaries and they have been skirted around. Do Controllers in Spain earn €300,000 a year on average or not?

NO. My case, working in an ACC with ten years experience, around 4.000 euros/month, but I still don't know what my salary will be this month (more cuts expected).

[Telstar]

It´s got nothing to do with Flow at all and all to do with being bolshie. You have some leeway to be flexible a few minues either way and you choose to be pedantic.

It´s the same when I say that I can easily be at the holding point in Palma in 10 minutes, 5 even, but you say I need 15 because it´s in the AIP. Then I get a two hour slot and the passengers, the one´s that pay our salaries, are seriously inconvenienced. Making us sit on the runway until the exact moment of the slot, burning fuel, polluting your country.

Let´s cut the nonsense. Just be honest, you are sending a message and using the passengers as leverage.

There is talk of getting a job in other countries. That´s funny, who would take you with your low standards?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

There is talk of getting a job in other countries. That´s funny, who would take you with your low standards?
Instead of million words....
That it is the reason why they are crying like small children.
If T&C aren't OK,leave company. It is so easy.
I suppose that Spain is normal country, so you could leave job without dead sentence as punishment.
but it is easier to divide people into three groups rather than work out solutions. Real solutions. Crying on the forum,is just that.Crying on the forum. :{

[aldegar]

When I worked in a TWR some years ago I was very strict with the CTOT(before all this s**t started, so don't tell me it's a "being bolshie" matter) . The -5 +10 minutes is ONLY for departure sequence, if there's no departure sequence you have to depart at the exact CTOT time. And believe me, if we didn't comply we would receive a threatening letter from "up". Oh, and I was really tired of the "we could be at the holding poing fully ready in ten minutes" which actually meant missing the CTOT (with the +10 included).

Also, I must remind you that complying with a CTOTs is a safety issue, and I'm sick and tired of working in overloaded sectors (which sometimes means me complaining to TWR for not complying with the CTOTs). But it seems like "low standards" pilots like you don't care about it. The important issue here is not that you get home late, it's that you get there in one piece.

That it is the reason why they are crying like small children

Answering your comments would really be childish, you are not worth my time.

[criss]

The -5 +10 minutes is ONLY for departure sequence, if there's no departure sequence you have to depart at the exact CTOT time.

Where can I find this rule?

[DjerbaDevil]

Spanish ATC mega-salaries:
Concerning Spanish ATC salaries, the following is a translation from "El Mundo" newspaper and gives a summary of their salaries during 2009(This information is confirmed by all the major Spanish newspapers, such as El Pais, La Razon, Cinco Dias La Vanguardia, etc etc etc):
"Overall in Spain during 2009 there were 2,300 Air Traffic Controllers out of which 28 earned over 700,000 Euros, 135 earned more than 350,000 Euros, 713 hava a salary that averages between 360,000 and 540,000 Euros. Also a selected few earn more than 900,000 Euros." Even in 2007 the average annual salary taken home by Spanish Air Traffic Controllers was 304,874 Euros...... The lowest earning Spanish Air Controllers were a total of two who took home an annual salary of 90,000 Euros in 2008.
This is a scandalous situation when the vast majority of Spaniards don't earn much more than 1,000 Euros a month and many less than that. Even the Spanish President/Prime Minister has an annual salary that is under 92,000 Euros.

[andrijander]

Quote: 135 earned more than 350,000 Euros, 713 hava a salary that averages between 360,000 and 540,000 Euros.

That's how much you can trust that. Also the infrastructure minister mentioned something like that in an interview with the press, such as that all controllers were earning over 350k a year and therefore the average salary was 300k (how can be the average smaller than the minimum they get? And how on earth he says that in front of many journo's and not one picks up on it? Nobody does math in school nowadays?). And also I believe he was referring to before tax salaries (is the only way he gets close to the real thing and then tax in Spain for that kind of dough goes well beyond 40%).

The minister was just orchestrating a media campaign to get the public opinion against the controllers. Nobody stopped to check if those figures were right cause it was a minister saying that. Politicians don't lie, do they?

Controllers in Spain earned really good wages, no doubt, but it was due to overtime. That was negotiated with the company (to whom it was cheaper to pay overtime than to train/hire controllers). The problem is that the company has built a lot (madrid terminal 5 BILLION, yes with a B as in 5000million €, barcelona 7 Billion €, etc) in the last couple of years and, heyho! they're short of cash. Someone has to pay for that (Not the ones deciding to build such expensive things, of course, after all they call the shots and pocketed millions each).

The story goes deeper than what the newspapers say. Way deeper, if you care to look.

[aldegar]

Eurocontrol CFMU - ATFCM Users Manual (4.4.2. ATC)

d) A slot tolerance (-5’ to +10’) is available to ATC to organise the departure sequence.

When I worked in TWR, we were constantly reminded by our regional Flow office that if there was no departure sequence we had to stick to the CTOT, the slot window was not valid (a note allways posted on the GMC position and in every fax they sent about acft having departed not complying).

[samotnik]

I'm sorry to say that, but in my opinion, a typical pilot will never understand the meaning and sense behind a CTOT. For them it's just a penalty, a cruel way for a nasty ATCo to humiliate them. I'm pretty sure it's because pilots usually don't have any knowledge of ATC. They rarely visit ATC facilities, they have little interest in our job. They don't receive much information about ATC during their training. These are the reasons that during flight, they are not aware of the fact, that there is a complex situation around them, where some conflicting decisions have to be made - for them it's only their aircraft, some other 'intruders' around them (of course it's obvious that these aircraft should have lower priority) and a stupid ATCo which i.e. gives them vectors for a too long final. I always wonder - how is it possible, that pilots are unable to understand, that next time it's THEM who will be waiting at the holding point and thinking 'why this damned ATC doesn't make more spacing to let us depart?!?!?!?!' ;)

Dear colleagues from the other side of the mic, please understand this: a TWR ATCo usually (95%) has nothing to do with the slot. Slots are due to weather, due to ACC staffing shortages etc. TWR ATCo must enforce the slot. It's one of his major duties. Personally, I think that sticking to the exact slot time is a bad idea, it doesn't help anything - aircraft may gain or loose some airtime due to wind, shortcuts etc. - it's quite heuristic. But yes, in theory aircraft shall depart on the exact CTOT time, that's how we are trained, and yes, there are some employers that check it on a regular basis and punish ATCos if they don't comply with the exact CTOT.

[criss]

Yes, but for me this "no departure sequence = depart exact on CTOT" part is B/S. When working GND position, I always try to get everyone to the h/p as early as possible, and on TWR I will depart them as soon as possible, so yes, CTOT-5. Aiming at exact CTOT makes little sense, and in fact would add more workload. If it's called "tolerance", than it works both ways - I can delay someone for a better sequence, but I can also speed him up.

[samotnik]

As I stated before - exact CTOT departure is usually due to some INOP rules.

[criss]

SOP can have all kinds of complete rubbish, I was reffering to something set by CFMU.

[andrijander]

"SOP can have all kinds of complete rubbish"

Read you 5 by 5. Problem here, as samotnik said, is that AENA is checking regularly for any ATCO doing anything out of the rules to punish them. They have their hands tied (it is my understanding that the employers have, on accasion, intruded on the operations and demanded from ATCO's to do things against the rules, threatening with disciplinary action if they wouldn't follow their command...but not protecting the staff if they would either since the rules still said it couldn't be done...so a very weird situation all in all).

A.

[criss]

I understand that as well, but it's like "I have set this rule myself so I won't be breaking it".

[p_perez]

One upon a day, an hypothetical government in Spain unilaterally decided that the National Health System (NHS) was not efficient anymore, financially speaking, because they had built hospitals in remote areas that did not have patients to attend. These hospitals had cost millions of €, because some construction companies and regional governments had been pushing for multimillion-euro contracts, apart from the real need for a hospital in the area. This had caused a huge deficit in the accounts of the NHS.

In parallel, a network of foreign companies had shown interest in participating in the privatization of these hospitals, after the payment of the appropriate bribes and/or illegal gratuities. Coinciding in time with an international financial crisis and under pressure from Europe to reduce the huge deficit, this hypothetical adrift government improvised ...

Instead of rationalizing the network of hospitals, the government decided to undertake a media campaign of harassment and demolition against operating room staff, who were "just" well-qualified workers. They began to be publicly accused of ruining the Spanish NHS. These scapegoats were going to pay the bill for an inefficient management, and a tangled web of political and economical interests. I. e. the director of the NHS was simultaneously during 6 months in his public office and in the board of directors of a very important construction company that was awarded with several multi-million € contracts. Of course, this was a mere coincidence ...

People buy the idea that these measures are necessary because they will enjoy a cheaper and more efficient medical service. And public opinion and political forces welcome the measure because they do not understand technical details and a campaign of demagogy and political propaganda has been carried out with success.

Consequently, this hypothetical government, in collusion with certain directors of the hospitals, their friends in the construction companies, and certain allied political forces, decided to "excrete" a decree-law imposing new and abusive working conditions for operating room staff, to override their 1st Collective Agreement (T&C´s), the Statute of Workers and the Spanish Constitution. The decree-law was written months before it was published, while they pretended they were still negotiating a new Collective Agreement with the legal trade union representing 96% of the staff of the operating rooms, and in fact certain clauses were introduced to benefit a network of companies and chosen individuals.

Months later, the media publish that waiting lists for surgery and other medical tests have increased in number and length of time, and medical errors have skyrocketed. People do not understand anything. Let us explain the causes.

Reduction of medical staff:
If before the decree-law an operation was carried out by 10 people, now only five are required to save up five salaries. The remaining five workers are overloaded and make mistakes. The quality of the service sinks and patients are treated like cattle. If families of the patients protests, the hospital directors blame the surgeons without remorse.

Reduction of time for rest:
Surgeons, anesthesiologists and nurses have their breaks reduced, both within and between shifts. If they enter service during the day, for every 7 hours they rest 1 hour 45 minutes (25%). But rest during the night is only one third of the time (33%), which means that sometimes they get only 3 hours of sleep. They perform their surgery quite sleepy and make more mistakes. If they protest, they get a disciplinary notice.

Between shifts there is no 12 hours of rest, as the law commands.

Increased workload:
Previously 3 surgical operations were performed a day. Now they are required to perform 6 with fewer staff. They also have to bring past paperwork to the operating room to complete it during surgery, and are required, under threat of a disciplinary notice, to complete also 56000 pages per month detailing everything they do. They are required upon arrival to the operating room to press a button on an stupid machine that emits a "ping" and that was previously forgotten in a corner of the room, but that was bought at an exorbitant price to a company that works with the owner of the hospital.

Surgeons are saturated. They demand a staff increase, but are told that actual staff is more than enough. In the meanwhile, a subsidiary company of the public hospitals offer an advanced master in surgery with a price of "only" 45000 €.

Increasing the monthly working days, express recalls and random roster:
Staff in operating rooms are forced to work a number of days per month that is arbitrarily assigned by the hospital´s director, the Health Minister and the text of the decree-law, without seeing their families in days, regardless of their Collective Agreement, the provisions of the Workers' Statute, and without the participation of the trade union´s legal representants in these decisions, as it should be acording to the Spanish Constitution.

Some have only two days off per month, and even on those two days mandatory recalls ("express services") can be imposed.

Disappearance of the "sleeping day":
Before all this madness, after a night shift, an operating room worker had a full day of rest for a full recovery of his capacity. Not anymore. Traffic accidents have increased, because physicians are stressed and spend their life on the road, driving to and from work. When they arrive at home, get into bed without even saluting their children. When they wake up they are in a bad mood. They eat poorly, sleep poorly, have circadian disarray, personal issues are neglected, and they never know on what day of the week or month they are.

Some begin to get sick leaves because they can not stand it any more. They are afraid of making a mistake that could cost a patient his life. When they are under legal sick leaves, certified by doctors from the NHS, hospital managers accuse them of labour absenteeism and put them under surveillance of detectives and inspectors. Not a single case of absenteeism is ever detected, but it doesn´t matter: people already got the "official" message, and consider these workers as scum.

Publication of procedure without previous studies:
In the middle of a surgery, the operating room staff receive a letter from the hospital director and his deputy of accountability requiring them to reduce the number of vials of plasma for transfusion, and are asked to recycle the medical cotton gauzes. The hospital director, who is an engineer, forces the surgeon to use certain scalpel and not any other, because he is the boss of the movie.

Permanently available:
The operating room staff know their work roster with only 10 days notice, and they can not plan ahead their personal life. They can be imposed a mandatory recall ("express service") "to ensure the continuity of the Health Service and the financial viability of the NHS". Negation to accept is "rewarded" with a disciplinary notice.

Low-cost medical service:
The "beancounters" begin to hire unemployed "professionals" from Southeast Asia. They do not speak Spanish, and their medical license is accepted by the "beancounters" because they are in a hurry. They rapidly integrate them in the operating room teams, but because of their limited Spanish skills, they make constant mistakes. The surgeon has real problems to communicate with the anesthesiologist or with the nurse in the middle of the operation.

Staff from certain hospitals with few patients are transferred to other hospitals with more work. In the former hospitals, a low-cost medical service is implemented, provided by itinerant butchers and tooth-pullers. Some automatic machines are also installed: now anyone can get a "sanitary" treatment (they can´t call it "medical" treatment, because not doctor intervenes). They mislead the people, as they are told that this new system will offer the same level of safety and quality in the medical service.

Bullying and mobbing environment:
Each day, upon arriving their workplace, medical professionals receive plenty of written guidance on various operational matters and are threatened with a disciplinary notice and punishment if they refuse to comply the guidelines, no matter they may be safe or not. When written requests for clarification or information are filed, they get administrative silence as an answer, and referred to the text of the decree-law.

Middle managers are coerced by the threat of a disciplinary notice if they don´t press the staff to work in these conditions. Hospitals look and feel like a concentration camp.

If doctors decide to publicly denounce their working conditions and warn of the risks to the patient's health, then they are accused of irresponsible behavior and causing false public alarm.

Public scorn:
The health minister, a man with only high school formation, but very loyal to his political party, is out constantly in the media beating the health professionals black and blue. Their children no longer dare to admit that their parents are doctors, or anesthesiologists, or nurses.

The hospital directors publicy state in the media that Spanish surgeons are working to the rule, and that they are bad professionals, thus contributing to the moral degradation of the health collective. It's like if the NASA proclaimed their astronauts were just a bucket-full of ****.

Lack of transparency:
The directors of the hospitals prohibit the entry of journalists. Visit permits have to be requested with at least 5 days notice (half the time monthly rosters are released for workers), and are scrutinized by the managers. The purpose is to hide the actual conditions of the operating rooms because if they were disclosed, they would be unmasked in front of everybody, and resignations and dismissals would have to be executed, and a political price would have to be paid.

Lack of independence of the regulator and the provider:
An executive from Bayer is appointed as director of the National Agency of Medicines .

Economic pressures, politicization, privatization and fraud to consumers and users:
Certain companies that manufacture Surgical material pressure on hospitals to buy their material at the best price. Hospitals and the government calm them and tell them that yes, do not worry, when we finish with the high salaries of surgeons and their privileged T&C´s, there will be money for everyone. The citizens paid the construction and equipment of the hospitals with their taxes, but now they will have to pay for each medical procedure because hospitals have been sold to private companies. Citizens pay twice for their NHS, and get an infamous service.

Would you undergo surgery in this hospital? Demand the truth: your health is at stake.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Couldn't get a direct at Fl450 the other day after spending 30 minutes asking to get there - bloody ridiculous, just go out on strike...... but it appears you intend to inflict misery on the people that can help you the least.

Or perhaps you are too worried about public perception

[samotnik]

A direct routing at any level messes up flow situation. Some ANSPs tend to put more tension on that issue than others.

[Lon More]

GSPOT Did you consider the fact that the cause of the restrictions affecting you was probably not at FL450? Few secrors start at that Level, in fact it is entirely possible that you flew in a sector where the lowest level was FL250, and even if you are not actively being controlled you are being monitored thus contributing to the workload. As stated elsewhere the controllers' actions are being monitored for deviations from SOPs (what would your operator do if you did that?)

However the problem probably lies in the fact that, sooner or later, you will have to leave your lofty throne and mingle with the masses on approach to destination, where the traffic flow is being regulated. Your early arrival could just be the one straw that breaks the camel's back.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

GSPOT Did you consider the fact that the cause of the restrictions affecting you was probably not at FL450? Few secrors start at that Level, in fact it is entirely possible that you flew in a sector where the lowest level was FL250, and even if you are not actively being controlled you are being monitored thus contributing to the workload. As stated elsewhere the controllers' actions are being monitored for deviations from SOPs (what would your operator do if you did that?)

However the problem probably lies in the fact that, sooner or later, you will have to leave your lofty throne and mingle with the masses on approach to destination, where the traffic flow is being regulated. Your early arrival could just be the one straw that breaks the camel's back.

Yep I did consider that, my point is is that I need a whole less monitoring when Im 6000ft vertically clear of other traffic, we dont have the big picture and I've utmost respect for the ones that do regardless of FIR and I dont profess to have all the answers...... but I do have two good ears and an "expanded" button on my TCAS panel. Up there we check in and we check out - very little interaction with controllers as you'd expect

What would you have me do? M0.85 at FL350 amongst the 73's and Airbuses

Anyway notwithstanding all that......I'm not stupid enough to argue on the operational side

Any corporate pilot in his business jet at FL400+ has spent the last 15 years coming of Malaga getting DCT Balen DCT Villatobas DCT Delog dct Salco, we've got quite a distinctive call sign and are always happy to oblige we've even been bribed to climb with a direct in the past..... people cant have it both ways so your arguement about all arriving at the wrong time might have worked if we hadn't been doing it for 10 years + besides our destination aren't in Spain



This is purely work to rule becasue of the salary/ T&C situation, but Spanish ATC have picked the wrong audience - the end user. A strike and total shutdown of the airspace will get peoples attention - not having me arrive with less fuel than I planned for because I cant get a level to counter stronger than forecast winds - we need that flexibility

Instead of focusing on the operational aspect of my post and trying to belittle people with references to "Lofty Thrones" and "Mingling with the Masses" play the ball and not the man - dont personalise things and answer the questions.....

Is quarter of a million quid a year not enough to be an ATCO in Spain?

Without getting into the standard of service we get down there - are they worth twice what a UK ATCO earns?

Whilst having sympathy for the plight of the Spanish ATC - they've had it good for a long long time - obviously some of the horror stories are indeed bordering on negligent/downright dangerous but if its that bad - only cancelling peoples holidays due to ATC action and closing the airspace is going to work - not making me land 15 minutes late with 800lbs less fuel than I thought I would have......

The irony is I'd happily put up with it if I felt it would do any good :ugh:

[samotnik]

Yep I did consider that, my point is is that I need a whole less monitoring when Im 6000ft vertically clear of other traffic,

Yeah, you're right. But the moment, when you have to start your descent, will finally come. And what then? You were expected to arrive to a specific sector, at a specific level and on a specific time. You happened to arrive too soon, the sector you're in is overloaded and you have to hold enroute at FL400+. Are you happy? Or you are in a totally different sector where nobody expected you to descend at all. There is no room, there is no RTF time to handle your descent. What then? Of course nobody will hold you until you burn all the fuel and crash, but such situation is inconvenient, annoying and potentially dangerous. The whole ATM system network is being constantly developed to AVOID such hazards. It's no problem if it happens once per shift, but not if you have several a/c, which you didn't expect to have, at a time...

That' why pilots should not expect that every direct routing request will be approved. ATCos do their best to shortcut your flight, but it's not always possible.

IMHO it's all over again about pilots not being aware of ATC job. Please, visit an ATC facility, talk to ATCos, try to get the big picture. Check how dozens of state-of-art, complex, distributed all over the world systems work to get you (and thousands of other a/c) smoothly through the sky at one time. It's a complex task and sometimes it heavily depends on such small factors as, for instance, sticking close to flight plan routing.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Samotnik

I appreciate what you are saying and yes my visit to an ATC facility is long overdue I admit, but again you seem to be cherrypicking your arguements.

But theres been a whole lot more ATC visits by pilots than fam flights in the last 9 years (not through choice admittedly) and I think its sometimes forgotten theat we have our own sets of problems too and its frustrating when they get added to for no apparent reason. Admittedly things aren't as bad as having to take our kids to work but we have issues nevertheless

Once again I'll outline my grievances. PS Ive nothing against Spanish ATC

1. Is quarter of a million quid a year not enough to be an ATCO in Spain?

2. Without getting into the standard of service we get down there - are they worth twice what a UK/EU ATCO earns?

3. Ok you may have me on operational ATC matters - but if we cant get a direct why the restrictions on a cruise level between say 390 and FL450 - theres nobody to bother in the descent in the main between those levels and we'll come down early if you like.

4. How have we coped in the last 10 years with the operational problems you describe or is just coincidence that these problems are more apparent whilst Spanish ATC are fighting for Ts & Cs

Our destination is in the UK - regardless of what sector we end up in we always have to make certain levels at certain places which are far from optimal - not complaining about that - thats just life in the big city, but its important that we get a good level earlier in the flight to make economic sense

Im sorry but it waddles like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, its lays eggs like a duck then its a duck.

This is the result of work to rule by the Spanish, I fully appreciate the need for action you only have to read some of the posts on here to realise it but all you're/they're doing is increasing emmisions, burning fuel, inconveniencing passengers.

GO ON STRIKE - make people aware of your plight get instead of trying to cause death by a thousand paper cuts

[samotnik]

G-SPOT, I won't discuss about Spanish ATC and their T&C problems. All I want to say is that your aircraft is expected to be in a specific place, at a specific level and on a specified time all the time during your flight. On a busy day the whole network of ATM systems and ATC staff depend on it. There's really been a lot of discussion about how important is it (or not), whether an early/late departure affects this more than any shortcut etc. There are mathematical calculations, numerical models and much of sophisticated software designed to confirm or disconfirm various theories regarding flow management. But for an ATCo on duty it's simple: he can give you a shortcut, or approve a departure outside CTOT window, or not. Some of ATCos are allowed and willing to do it, some don't. Just don't rely on any deviation from your flight plan and if some gets approved, then treat it as a courtesy of a specific fellow down there. Life gets easier this way.

[samotnik]

BTW, G-SPOT, it's your company who pushes ANSP to save every penny. There is really a lot of pressure from airspace users to cut costs down to the very bottom. Just stop this trend and who knows, with a small increase in ATC fee, every single sector will be manned and you will get any your inflight request approved. Unfortunately, now it look that airlines want to decide about any penny spent by ANSP, provided that, of course, there will be constant cost reduction and quality increase, at one time. Do I tell you how much you should earn as a pilot? Well, unfortunately your company would like to decide on my salary. That's ugly.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Samotnik...

Well thanks for that in the context of this thread you've been absolutely no help whatsoever.

Anybody else want to answer the non operational awkward questions without giving the "stock" answer.

Theres upwards of 12 pages on this very subject in rumours and news and its not pleasant reading

Anyway all the best Spanish ATCO's, hope you get it sorted and things come back to this aparently never existed normal soon

[Del Prado]

Anybody else want to answer the non operational awkward questions without giving the "stock" answer.

1+2 are the same questions and I can't answer it, though I would like to see confirmation of what a Spanish ATCO actually earns rather than the rubbish that's trotted out in the media.

3. That's an operational question.

4. Apparently they've retired all ATCOs aged 57 and over and haven't been recruiting for six? years so I assume staffing levels are way below the levels of 10 years ago.
It looks like this 'crisis' has been orchestrated for quite some time. ie. It's cheaper to offer (generous) overtime to existing ATCOs than hire and train the right amount.
Once the overtime becomes 'normal' unilaterally impose it as a normal working practise and stop overtime payments.
Wait for the right time to do this eg recession and orchestrate media campaign against ATCOs.
Remove their right to strike.

It sets a dangerous precedent for ATCOs across europe and unlike pilots we have very little scope to change employer, which is unfortunate as there's a worldwide shortage of ATCOs.

[speedbird462]

approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!

[fireflybob]

And yet yesterday coming back from south Spain to UK we're filed FL 380 but had to cruise at FL360!! ATC were very apologetic that FL380 was not available but how does this compare with the arguments raised wrt GSPOT?

[p_perez]

Hello!

AENA published the rosters for august last july 21th, applying the new 10-day notice for Spanish ATCO´s. And here is an example:

Vacation
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
1500->2200
0800->1500
Day off
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500
Day off
Day off
0800->1500
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
1500->2200
0800->1500
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
0800->1500
0800->1500
0800->1500It sums 194 hrs. in 30 days, with only 4 days off. Notice the last 14 days working in a row, with no day off.



Yet another example:

Day off
1500->2200
"0700->0830" (he must be on call in this period, if needed, he has to work from the moment he gets the call->1500)
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
1500->2200
Day off
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800In this case, 191,4 hrs. with the chance of becoming 198 hrs. if he gets the call on the 3rd, which is highly probable.

In both cases, you get a 33% rest (sleep) from 2200->0800, and a 25% on remainder periods. Times are local, not UTC.

Salary? Well, I don´t know these guys and their professional level, but it must be around 5000€ (+/- 500€) for this amount of worked hours.

BTW, AENA is hiring, so if you are interested ...


¡Saludos!

[lederhosen]

You have provided a link into the lion's den as far as us pilots are concerned. So in the full knowledge that I am probably going to get mugged by a band of angry and of course overworked controllers let me say the following.

Your roster does of course look as though the scheduling system is out of control. However given that most of the single days off are actually 48 hour periods free of duty most of us pilots could point to similar stretches.

You do not provide detail as to what duties you are expected to perform during this time. Is any of it standby, reserve or whatever you call it?

It looks as though your employer is attempting to respond to the sickout by scheduling every controller to the limit. That way he has maximum flexibility to respond.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

AENA is hiring, so if you are interested ...


requirements? offer? available location? any official link to vacancy.......

[andrijander]

Lederhosen, just a punctualization, but on those days off you may get a phone call and be told to show up at work (within the hour? correct me if I'm wrong) So forget about going anywhere or leaving your phone out of reach...hardly a day off then, is it? Do you as a pilot suffer that?

Please notice I'm not talking about anything else (sallaries, service quality, etc...)

A.

PD: singapur, one word: esquirol. Not calling you that myself, but be aware you may be called that...with what it entails! So proceed at own risk.

Rgrds to all.

[lederhosen]

Goodness I stray into the wilds of the Atc forum and so far I have only had one half hearted push from behind. I guess the real mob only comes out at night.

Yes of course I know what standby is. Pilots get lots of it, some for months at a time. I can even guess what punctualisation is, although its not really a level four sort of word.

Just to clarify my question, does any of the 194 hours include any element of standby?

[Denti]

We currently have quite a few pilots scheduled up to 220 hours of duty per month, no thanks to the spanish ATC situation, amongst other things of course, but it is a major sore point. This of course means increasing sickness percentages, the disruptions of rotations due to ATC delays (way over 2000 hours since may alone) makes a plannable private live for all of our crews completely impossible, not to note that it means we will produce a loss instead of a profit this year due to this endangering around 10.000 jobs and possibly several hundred thousands of stranded passengers.

So it seems you just try to do upon your client what has been done to you, with the marked difference that we have to turn a profit to stay in business, ATC does not.

[p_perez]

The only standby or on-call shift is on the 3rd day of the 2nd roster. I'm sure there are other tight rosters out there, but I doubt they are comparable to ours.

Every day we go to work we have to insert our ID card in the machine upon arrival and departure: we are required to arrive on time , and we are not allowed to go home early, even if our last period is of rest.

[BDiONU]

the marked difference that we have to turn a profit to stay in business, ATC does not.
The largest single ATC employer and ANSP in UK, NATS, is not government run, it's a company and must turn a profit. Admittedly the only ANSP in Europe which is privately owned ;)

BD

[kontrolor]

perez, did you protest when they imposed low quantity of working hours, did you require them to change the rostering - to avoid overtime?

[Chesty Morgan]

Every day we go to work we have to insert our ID card in the machine upon arrival and departure: we are required to arrive on time , and we are not allowed to go home early, even if our last period is of rest.

Where's the problem with that? Everyday I go to work I am required to check in on a PC. At the end of my duty I have to walk from the aircraft to the crew room, which can be quite a distance, do a bit of paperwork and then check out on a PC, I'd rather just walk straight through the terminal get the bus and bugger off home but as I'm a professional, with some morals, I do what my company asks of me.

I can't go home early.

Surely turning up on time is what a professional does. If you don't want to be there don't turn up at all but if you do want to be there why would you turn up late?

[andrijander]

Chesty,

I believe the point he's trying to make is that, going back to the publication of the roster, all those hours are to be meant as working hours. He isn't complaining about having to be there per se. He is just letting you know that they actually are there (question from leatherpants about stdby time comes to mind).

Leatherpants: it isn't english at all actually, turns out I'm human after all. Big surprise there? What mob? Are you here just to stir things up? Good luck...not.

Again, for the thousand time, I am not defending any position. I just believe that what has been imposed to the ATCO's in Spain is wrong. No need to be a genius to understand that lots of these problems are a consequence of the new law. But here we are throwing sh1t between ourselves. Like that is gonna sort anything. I mean, some pilots here complain that working to rule achieves nothing, and that controllers not being flexible only makes pilots not being flexible. Woohoo! I am going on holidays tomorrow and taking the eurotunnel with my own car. You all lose.

SAFETY ladies and gentlemen is what I'm about. Make controllers work 28 out of 30 days, treat them like scum on TV and press, and at the same time reduce their breaks, T&C's, increase workload...well, hardly surprising there may be problems. This wasn't the controllers decision. Are they acting correctly? Probably not, nobody's perfect. I believe though that the system in Spain os going down to bits and it is not just the guys fault. If the captain decides to sink the ship little is there to do for the people in the engine room. Even if they try they have a big job ahead. Which they do, there's plenty of room for improvement. There always is everywhere.

Safe landings.

[p_perez]

andrijander, you got the point!

I was just about to clarify my previous post for those that didn´t get what I meant. You were faster, my dear colleague!

You guys just can´t imagine the new media campaign we are suffering for the last weeks. It is absolutely overwhelming, and I don´t know if we ATCO´s in Spain will ever be socially considered again as ordinary citizens once the situation settles (if ever ...)

And the sad thing is that all that matters for some is that they get "their" shortcut or "their" not filed FL, etc ...

I keep on reading some of you guys repeating the same lies I have already denied and explained about our actual wages, T&C´s, AENA´s instructions regarding shortcuts and FL´s and CTOT´s ... Why don´t you just read my 3 or 4 last posts in this thread? Are you really interested in the true information to help you understand and make up your mind, or you just wont stop ranting like kids with their whims denied?

On the other hand, thanks a lot to all of you that understand what is happening to us, and contribute with your point of view to this thread.

Saludos!

[lederhosen]

I remember a shortage of controllers in Spain around twenty years ago. I seem to remember one of the reasons given was that lots were going off to become pilots and joining Aviaco etc.

It is a bit ironic really given the subsequant development of our respective terms and conditions and the disappearance of a number of airlines. However I think it demonstrates that we do have common interests and that our professions are sadly going in the same direction.

[aldegar]

However I think it demonstrates that we do have common interests and that our professions are sadly going in the same direction.

Absolutely true. Not the best time to work in aviation... easy to go down, impossible to go up...

[aldegar]

And by the way, the situation is absolutely getting out of hand here. I just have no idea of what their REAL (and apparently well planned) intentions are.

[p_perez]

Hmmmmmmm ....

Regarding rosters, I just read a discussion about Ryan Air´s, and I couldn´t be more surprised:

http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5830489#post5830489

It looks like you guys have 5 days of work and 3 or 4 days off, that is about 12 days off in a month! WOW!

Is this standard in all airlines? Can it be even better? I supose this example could be one of the worst, due to the bad press this company has.

Be careful: our Spanish semiliterate Minister of Development Mr. Blanco might consider you a cast of privileged lazy scum and could proceed against you to guarantee air transport service. After all, he gets a lot of votes that way, and pilots are also a good target like ATCO´s.

BTW, you can take your time to compare these rosters to ours: let´s see whose´s bigger ...


Saludos!

[fireflybob]

p_perez, if you want pilot's pay and conditions then become a pilot!

[Dries]

to P_Perez,

Thank you for the lengthy posts you have written in this thread. They give a valuable second opinion to all the rumours and distorted facts you hear from time to time. As a pilot I expect that there is far more that joins us than what divides us and some of the conditions you are facing are truly unsustainable. I am also impressed by the dignity of your replies to some unfounded and cheap attacks over the last weeks on this forum.
However, (hold your breath here) you have had the misfortune to be the first Spanish controller that I have met on the Interwebs and after having been based for three years in Madrid, I've compiled a list of suggestions for your learned consideration. It is not meant in a condescending, neo-colonial way, they are merely bits of advice on offer in case you wonder what you (not you, but Spanish ATCOs) could possibly improve on. Some stuff I would tell you if we met up in a bar as friends. Also, I know pilots can be lazy, short-fused and ignorant and some of your previous post have already confronted my with some of my old stupid habits. Thank you for that. Lastly, some of my suggestions may have been debated elsewhere already but since they were on my list anyway, I left them there.

General R/T

- Stop repeating yourself when giving instructions. One clear instruction is enough, one callsign and we will respond. Saying the same clearance twice makes you sound like an amateur.
- slow down your rate of talking. It is confusing since a lot of us are non-native speakers and it makes people nervous - including yourself. We roll our eyes when flying in African airspace with controllers spitting out instructions like a machine gun because they think it sounds really professional or cool; well it doesn't - it sucks and it's difficult to understand. Some of the best controllers in the busiest European airspaces, eg. London Approach, speak very calmly and measured, without a hint of stress in their voice. It instills confidence among the pilots and makes everyone more relaxed. I am aware that Spanish is usually fast-spoken so this would require a conscious effort.
- if we miss an instruction, don't start talking to us in a patronizing and condescending way. eg. ' FastJet123 I Say Again ' in a loud slow voice like you would talk to your 95 year old grandmother. Ok we missed it and we're really sorry, get over it and just repeat the instruction.
- avoid the use of 'recleared'. it's use is confusing and no longer recommended (and so is 'charlie charlie' for that matter.)
- avoid 'climb and maintain FLXXX'. We will generally not climb to FLXXX, stay there for ten seconds and then descend a few thousand feet. It would be pointless and so is your instruction.
- use 'continue' heading iso 'maintain' heading. 'Maintain' is used for FLs and not headings as disambiguation.
- not your fault but...get some new microphones because the sound quality of your transmission is among the worst in Europe. Some controllers should check however that they speak into their microphone and not just facing away ogling at their good looking colleagues. When you say that they're unreadable, you hear this characteristic adjusting-rumble and suddenly you hear them twice as good! (this is your fault)

En route

- as you approach the end of the cruise segment and prepare for descent, you can from time to time see other traffic going to the same destination placed exactly on your same location two or four thousand feet below. When both aircraft nearly simultaneously ask for descent, a 25 minute battle for airtime to ask for stepped descents ensues. Can't you give us speed separation 50nm out or when we enter your sector to avoid this annoying problem.
- It appears you don't acknowledge PAN calls, only MAYDAYs ? Is this correct; I have my info from hearsay so not sure. Definition of PAN (from the French: panne - a breakdown) indicates an urgent situation of a lower order than a "grave and imminent threat requiring immediate assistance", such as a mechanical breakdown or a medical problem. All pilots know it, most would use it, unless in Africa.

Descent

Spain is one of the only countries I have flown to were aircraft separation is either 50, 70 or 90 degrees off track. It is soo frustrating. Can you please seperate based on speed or with less then 45deg heading changes? It would remove another world of frustration. Of course, any argument in your defense is immediately invalidated since Spain is the only country where this happens, ha!

Holding

You really have to give us an idea of how long we will likely have to hold. An EAT is all we need and we use it to make our decision to divert or not and if so when. It is a difficult decision with big implications (rescue flights, hotel accomodation, buses, loads of paperwork and this is before declaring an emergency due to low fuel). They give them in most countries so if you wanna join the cool cats...

Approach

once you start giving speed control, you have to continue it and end it.
eg. 'maintain 160kts until 4nm' or 'free speed'
It is the only way that pilots will respect your request. Many times pilots start reducing their speed on their own initiative because they can see they're catching up the slower traffic ahead. In this case the pilots should tell you but many are reluctant or forget. Adding to the problem is the multiple frequency changes on approach where speed instructions from one controller are not passed on to the next one.

Ground/Air

stop favoritism for Spanish aircraft. I know it was mentioned earlier on and defended by ATCO's stating that it doesn't happen, but it still does. Over the three years I was based in Madrid, I have seen an improvement but it is sooo unprofessional. Just put yourself in our place. We don't ask for favors, just a fair treatment to any of your customers. Don't think you see this kind of favoritism in places like London or Frankfurt.

regards

[p_perez]

fireflybob wrote:
p_perez, if you want pilot's pay and conditions then become a pilot!

I frankly don´t remember saying I would trade myself with a pilot. You should see me driving my car, so don´t mention an airplane!:eek: And add to that having to endure the pain in the arse of the Spanish ATC ... Are you kidding, man? :ugh:

Jokes apart, my interest in comparing rosters with those of pilot´s is just the answer to the interest many pilots have shown in the wages and T&C´s of Spanish ATCO´s, mostly as munition to attack us. Have a look at all these individual messages:

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain.html#post5718762
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain-3.html#post5773337
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain-3.html#post5774696
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416439-atc-situation-spain-4.html#post5816560
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc.html#post5730435
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-4.html#post5751413
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-4.html#post5752470
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-13.html#post5817174
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-16.html#post5823593
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-17.html#post5828538
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-18.html#post5829480

I was only showing how hypocrite they could be. Comparing your 12/16 days off a month with our 4/5 days off was meant only for the activation of proper "bells and whistles" regarding SAFETY, mainly YOUR safety, because after all, we Spanish ATCO´s will be sitting in our chairs, very close to terrain, through out the whole august roster, while you guys ...


Dries wrote:
Thank you for the lengthy posts you have written in this thread. (...)

Well, thank you very much for your kind and constructive post, Dries. I recognize myself in many of the errors you mention. To justify a few of them, I would say that they were taught to me by some of my senior colleagues, whom I very much respect, that had to learn the profession the tough way. Anyway, with your permission, I´ll print your list and it will be shown around in my ACC. For sure it will be read with interest, mostly among the new generations.


Last friday, july 23rd, a very serious incident happened at Madrid ACC. A TV crew from the state TVE1 was visiting the installation as part of the making of a documentary about the situation of Spanish ATC. Prior to the entrance of the TV crew to the main hall, an AENA manager named "Antonio" (I suspect he is a former ATCO that "fell to the dark side" for €€), aided by a nameless AENA employee, entered the hall and started removing all the posters and signs about our conflict with AENA, which had been placed progressively by my colleagues since feb. 5th:

http://www.controladoresaereos.org/wp-content/uploads/4821420561_27023a65ec_b.jpg


And this is the video of what happened, in the middle of the ACC operation, with pilots and controllers trying to comunicate (MUST SEE!!!!!):

YouTube - Acoso laboral de Aena a los controladores del Centro de Control de Torrejón y censura informativa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Wt7DfugaA&feature=player_embedded)


This is an example of the censorship :mad: AENA is applying to all the installations and staff related to ATC. Journalists have their entrace forbidden to all AENA ATC work places, and this has also been aplied to some politicians that have shown interest in knowing 1st hand our real situation. It is also an example of the daily pressure AENA management is putting on ATCO´s and of what they care about SAFETY in our job.

Similar situations have been repeated in other towers and ACC´s, with AENA management staff disrupting the normal operation to deliver personally mandatory "express services" to already (on the job) overworked colleagues.

More information as soon as I can post it.


Saludos!

[p_perez]

Sorry, I just received the link and couldn´t resist myself. At least, I´m going to bed with a smile in my face!

I´m very pleased to introduce you to the President of the Spanish Goverment, Mr. Zapatero (Shoemaker) and his indubitable charm over other world leaders:

YouTube - Plantón de Berlusconi a Zapatero escena íntregra 10 mayo 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEAX63JPMWo)

YouTube - Zapatero Lidera la Cumbre de la OTAN en Bucarest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k6_BCeP-ac)


Saludos!

[deci]

p_perez let's make a deal: you take my "leader" (the one shown in 1st video) I'll take yours..
:ugh:

[p_perez]

To deci: I accept your proposal, eyes closed!

[Dries]

Anyway, with your permission, I´ll print your list and it will be shown around in my ACC. For sure it will be read with interest, mostly among the new generations.

That would be too much honour for me but of course you have my permission!

[10W]

The manager handled it badly and clearly played in to the hands of those wanting to make their political points on camera.

On the other hand, how professional is it to jump up and start ranting and raving when you are plugged in on an operational sector ? Don't you give a stuff about the traffic you are controlling ?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The 'controllers' involved need to consider what holding an ATC licence, with safety accountabilities, actually means. Reacting and losing control when you are supposed to be providing a service to aircraft within your sector does nothing to help promote your case against the Government and AENA. The impression it creates in aviation professional circles is that you are hot headed and a potential risk to air safety. Your state of mind is also probably not conducive to providing a safe service since you will be thinking more about the confrontation which just occurred instead of the service you should be providing.

The time to react and make your points known is once you are unplugged and where it won't distract your colleagues. :=

If you can't do that, you're in the wrong job.

[p_perez]

To 10W:

this situation extends since feb. 5th until now, almost 6 months! The controllers at Madrid ACC have seen in all this time:


how the management has taken absurd and dangerous operational decisions;
how their days off have been confiscated by AENA at the companys own caprice;
how mothers have had no other option but to take their children to work, on a mandatory night service, imposed on a day off, because they couldn´t find no one to babysit them;
how a calibrator aircraft has been authorized on a very busy morning, creating absolute chaos, with the intention of opening disciplinary actions against some ATCO´s and hold them as hostages to trade them in the negotiation with our union;
how their colleagues over 57, one morning, were led like cattle out of the control room by AENA staff, labeled as useless for a job they had been doing for many years;
how they are obligued to work on rosters none of you would endure;
etc ...6 months, half a year, enduring this situation, how long are my colleagues suppose to stand it without any reaction? After all, the AENA manager and his herd is not supossed to be allowed inside the control room, and it looks like he was finally chasen out. It´s the same as you pilots are not supossed to let anyone alien to your job in your cockpit for security reasons. Open your eyes, and put the blame on the people that caused this situation, not on the ones that suffer it.


Saludos!

[30W]

p-perez,

Whilst most have both concern for your fight with management, the distribution of the Ops room video clip really does no good for your cause, and in deed is extremely worrying for both your users and for yourselves.....

I know frustrations and tempers are at boiling point amongst you all, but the video clip shows a TOTALLY unprofessional workplace. The proximity of industrial propaganda to controller workstations etc is totally unacceptable in my opinion. The distraction level provided by yourselves, WITHIN an operational area is totally unprofessional. Your employer DOES have the right, and indeed DUTY to control what distraction lies within the close proximity of the operational workstations.

Imagine how this video would look in a court of law following an incident/accident in Spanish airspace (we all hope that doesn't happen!).

Based on the video one of your colleagues has posted, you risk not only safety, but also your own licenses... controllers who have left an operational position would be legally culprable, with all the sad ramifications that involves.

AENA, equally culprable, could also right now use the video if they so choose to run disciplinary hearings against your colleagues for their failure to carry out their professional duty whilst 'operational'.

I thank you for coming on here to share the awareness of the current Spanish situation, and help us understand the issues involved. Warn your colleagues however, that release of such videos is in itself an extremely dangerous way of highlighting 'the cause', and could well come back to bite them.....

Saludos
30W
Capt 757/767

[El Molo]

1. Is quarter of a million quid a year not enough to be an ATCO in Spain?

2. Without getting into the standard of service we get down there - are they worth twice what a UK/EU ATCO earns?

3. Ok you may have me on operational ATC matters - but if we cant get a direct why the restrictions on a cruise level between say 390 and FL450 - theres nobody to bother in the descent in the main between those levels and we'll come down early if you like.

4. How have we coped in the last 10 years with the operational problems you describe or is just coincidence that these problems are more apparent whilst Spanish ATC are fighting for Ts & Cs

Our destination is in the UK - regardless of what sector we end up in we always have to make certain levels at certain places which are far from optimal - not complaining about that - thats just life in the big city, but its important that we get a good level earlier in the flight to make economic sense

Im sorry but it waddles like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, its lays eggs like a duck then its a duck.

This is the result of work to rule by the Spanish, I fully appreciate the need for action you only have to read some of the posts on here to realise it but all you're/they're doing is increasing emmisions, burning fuel, inconveniencing passengers.

GO ON STRIKE - make people aware of your plight get instead of trying to cause death by a thousand paper cutsI have read the entire thread and there is no point in fighting between ourselves. We are part of the same decaying business, aviation, infected by the virus of low cost. I will gladly answer your requests, no pilot harrasment of any kind, nor childish attitude. I have registered just to bring my point of view, as I see there is being some discussion here treating ourselves as ennemies, when the common ennemy is the employer, both pilot's and ATCo's, and the governments introducing the low cost and the low safety rates.

1. Quarter a million is a very good pay. I work in an ACC (not a small tower) and I hope I could gain that much, even before the decree. After february 5th, this amount is just a fairy tale (it was possible before for a few if they worked a lot, now it's just impossible).

2. I don't know the pay of UK controlers, and I would not compare to them, not because I feel less, but just because I don't know any of them so how could I judge... That said I feel respectful towards them, until they show me some evidence to change my mind. But I believe that we are payed less than UK controllers for the same amount of hours. If what you're comparing is the income (not the salary but the total income including huge overtimes) of a pre-decree spanish controller working more than 600 hours overtime (paid at 2.5 times the ordinary hour) to a UK controller working his basic shifts, it is impossible that it would ever ends the same. If you ask me, I could recognise that 600 hours a year are too much overtime, and that the prize of the hour was quite high. But to compare, you have to compare the same thing, and I don't think that our salary is any bigger than UK's ATCOs (though I could be wrong). Anyway, this situation is not possible anymore, overtime have been forbidden by direct orders from above, and now we are forced to work that huge amount of hours (that keepsbeing too much imho) at the prize of 0.8 times the ordinary hour. And it is not just a question of the prize. Having Sex is not the exact same thing as being raped, if you ask me. Even if there's penetration involved in both cases.

3. There is being severe overloads in Spanish skies these days. And by severe I don't mean "c'mon lazy boys let's work from time to time" but more "there are too many planes here around, this situation is absurd, I don't wanna be here, I want to cry". If you want, I can detail you some of these situations, but let's answer your question. Those overloads are cause because AENA, despite being in the hot summer season, is opening the least amount of sectors everyday, no matter if the traffic load is high. And as we are the only country in the world where ATCOs don't have the capacity of claiming flow actions, then non operational staff, from their offices, decide to accept a lot of traffic with the weakest possible configuration. So 1 the sectors are strongly overloaded to the point of us startinf to feel fear. Fear for you and the passengers, and fear to fail in providing safety, our main task. We have reported these overloads to the AESA, the safety agency, and instead of investigating and assuming that AENA has to change the way ATC is operated in Spain, they pedantly declare that AENA's flow management staff is perfect and that if there were any overloads at all, they are due to ATCos for giving directs and different FL as those requested by crews in the Flight Plans. So the Safety Director from AENA, Mr Cozar, repeats the message to us and ties our hands. I used to give directs every time I could, I used to give the FL desired by the crew (obviously if available), but I cannot anymore. It is not some kind of punishment nor making you aware of my poor T&C situation. It is just that I can be fired if I give a direct because my sector allows it, and then three sectors later or in the next FIR ruled by AENA, there is an incidente caused by overload. I mean fired. And by the way, as the sectors are usually overloaded these days, I can also give a bad time to a colleague.
Do I think Mr Cozar is right? No. I would better work in a scenario where AENA accepts the reports on overloads, accepts its responsibility and tries to solve it, with magic like... Open more sectors? And then I could give directs again. I really wish I could. Believe me if I tell you that it makes my eyes bloody painful to watch an airplane perform a complete SID in my screen. But I have to. We have reported more overloads after all this stuff, and half of them have been archived without further investigation because AENA safety staff calims that we gave direct routing. Even when it is not the case, but in their opinion, just reading the time of departure and the time over the FIR limit, they decide the flight was given a direct routing.

4. Really simple. In the last 10 years, shifts were populated after agreements between AENA and USCA. If you ask me, I'll be honest, some were over populated just to generate overtime hours. But overpopulation of shifts doesn't work against safety. So if 5 sectors were needed for the duty, sometimes we had 6. Now, we are always under the lowest possible configuration. That means that even if the configuration allows 120 traffics/hour and the demand is 160 traffics per hour, AENA will not consider opening another sector, nor calling people to work overtime to open it, even if the new law allows it. They have orders of not payig a sole overtime hour. Now if 5 sector are needed we are forced to use 4, even 3. So all the sectors are at 100% or even 110% capacity (as now AENA considers that 110% isn't enough for regulations). When the sectors are at 80% capacity, I can give directs to everybody, and even if it causes a 10-15% deviation from flow previsions, the sectors will still be under control. If the sectors are at 100-110% real load, then the 10-15% deviation due to direct routing or FL changing is impossible to assume.

So, as pilots don't tend to understand that matters in real time, I really make the effort of explainig it to them, but I have not always the time to do it on the frequency, and I feel that some leave swearing and unhappy with me and the service I provided. I never have forgotten that I am providing a service. I do not consider myself the one on command, or superior to the pilots or whatsoever. I do my best to help, don't give importance to some childish attitudes as "I could have overtaken that traffic" and the like and try to keep relaxed, kind and constructive. Believe me, I am not able of giving direct to outgoing traffic and I wish I could. I still give directs to the incoming traffic when I can, as I am able to see if there are overloads in the TMA and act consequently.

Finally I will answer your last 2 comments:

Even if your destination is UK, departing from the Canary Islands you will have to cross Madrid FIR. If you depart my TMA and your route does not involve any AENA FIR, then I would be glad to shorten yours or any other pilot's route.

And finally, we cannot strike. For 3 reasons. We are legally fighting the new law. AENA is trying to force us to go to strike far before the decree, from early 2009. If we did so, then as the conflict would be between us and AENA, the government would immediately act as a referee, and force then the new T&C not as they are now, imposed, but as a new collective agreement. Secondly, when we go to strike, the minimum services declared for us are 100 to 110 %. So the strike doesn't stop the air traffic at all. You get all the inconvenience of the strike (bad press and government's referee) with no benefits as the service will work exactly the same as if you don't strike. And third, we cannot force a savage strike, not respecting the minimum services, because we have from 2003 an "Air Safety Law" performed by another minister also very keen to us, that entitles the government to fine us with only 250.000 € if we attempt against the coninuity or safety of the system. Believe me, if we could gain something by strike, we would have done it far before.

Sorry for the length of the message, I hope it answered some of your concerns.

In fact, what we Spanish ATCOs hope you'll do next time you are denied a direct routing, instead of blamig/hating the ATCO, please fill in a report, or protest to the ANSP, AENA, asking for more sectors opened! We' ll all be happier if they cease to work at the limit, and, on top, to blame us on all the concerns provoked by their arbitrary decisions.

Sincerely

[El Molo]

You have provided a link into the lion's den as far as us pilots are concerned. So in the full knowledge that I am probably going to get mugged by a band of angry and of course overworked controllers let me say the following.

Your roster does of course look as though the scheduling system is out of control. However given that most of the single days off are actually 48 hour periods free of duty most of us pilots could point to similar stretches.

You do not provide detail as to what duties you are expected to perform during this time. Is any of it standby, reserve or whatever you call it?

It looks as though your employer is attempting to respond to the sickout by scheduling every controller to the limit. That way he has maximum flexibility to respond.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif
We have at average 4 stanby services per month. But it's just fiction, since the decree, and it's being almost 6 months now, I only kept at home during one of the stanby's. We had 3 controllers per sector. Now we get 8 for 3 sectors. The missing one is covered by the ex-rest time of the others, provoking a lot of short relays, and a lot of sector shifting. Both are declared of high risk in safety studies. Instead of programming 9 people for 3 sectors, and if at the end I have 8 then we can handle it that way, they systematically plan the least number of sectors possible, and without any extra controller "just in case". As in every business, there are people who fail, due to injury, sickness, baby birth, surged relative or whatever. So with the low planning they do (just to avoid spend money) nearly all the satndbys are called, even days before the work shift.

As to your final paragraph, it happens just the opposite way, as they schedule to the limit, there are increasing sickouts.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5826892&noquote=1)

[El Molo]

General R/T

- Stop repeating yourself when giving instructions. One clear instruction is enough, one callsign and we will respond. Saying the same clearance twice makes you sound like an amateur.
- slow down your rate of talking. It is confusing since a lot of us are non-native speakers and it makes people nervous - including yourself. We roll our eyes when flying in African airspace with controllers spitting out instructions like a machine gun because they think it sounds really professional or cool; well it doesn't - it sucks and it's difficult to understand. Some of the best controllers in the busiest European airspaces, eg. London Approach, speak very calmly and measured, without a hint of stress in their voice. It instills confidence among the pilots and makes everyone more relaxed. I am aware that Spanish is usually fast-spoken so this would require a conscious effort.
- if we miss an instruction, don't start talking to us in a patronizing and condescending way. eg. ' FastJet123 I Say Again ' in a loud slow voice like you would talk to your 95 year old grandmother. Ok we missed it and we're really sorry, get over it and just repeat the instruction.
- avoid the use of 'recleared'. it's use is confusing and no longer recommended (and so is 'charlie charlie' for that matter.)
- avoid 'climb and maintain FLXXX'. We will generally not climb to FLXXX, stay there for ten seconds and then descend a few thousand feet. It would be pointless and so is your instruction.
- use 'continue' heading iso 'maintain' heading. 'Maintain' is used for FLs and not headings as disambiguation.
- not your fault but...get some new microphones because the sound quality of your transmission is among the worst in Europe. Some controllers should check however that they speak into their microphone and not just facing away ogling at their good looking colleagues. When you say that they're unreadable, you hear this characteristic adjusting-rumble and suddenly you hear them twice as good! (this is your fault)

En route

- as you approach the end of the cruise segment and prepare for descent, you can from time to time see other traffic going to the same destination placed exactly on your same location two or four thousand feet below. When both aircraft nearly simultaneously ask for descent, a 25 minute battle for airtime to ask for stepped descents ensues. Can't you give us speed separation 50nm out or when we enter your sector to avoid this annoying problem.
- It appears you don't acknowledge PAN calls, only MAYDAYs ? Is this correct; I have my info from hearsay so not sure. Definition of PAN (from the French: panne - a breakdown) indicates an urgent situation of a lower order than a "grave and imminent threat requiring immediate assistance", such as a mechanical breakdown or a medical problem. All pilots know it, most would use it, unless in Africa.

Descent

Spain is one of the only countries I have flown to were aircraft separation is either 50, 70 or 90 degrees off track. It is soo frustrating. Can you please seperate based on speed or with less then 45deg heading changes? It would remove another world of frustration. Of course, any argument in your defense is immediately invalidated since Spain is the only country where this happens, ha!

Holding

You really have to give us an idea of how long we will likely have to hold. An EAT is all we need and we use it to make our decision to divert or not and if so when. It is a difficult decision with big implications (rescue flights, hotel accomodation, buses, loads of paperwork and this is before declaring an emergency due to low fuel). They give them in most countries so if you wanna join the cool cats...

Approach

once you start giving speed control, you have to continue it and end it.
eg. 'maintain 160kts until 4nm' or 'free speed'
It is the only way that pilots will respect your request. Many times pilots start reducing their speed on their own initiative because they can see they're catching up the slower traffic ahead. In this case the pilots should tell you but many are reluctant or forget. Adding to the problem is the multiple frequency changes on approach where speed instructions from one controller are not passed on to the next one.

Ground/Air

stop favoritism for Spanish aircraft. I know it was mentioned earlier on and defended by ATCO's stating that it doesn't happen, but it still does. Over the three years I was based in Madrid, I have seen an improvement but it is sooo unprofessional. Just put yourself in our place. We don't ask for favors, just a fair treatment to any of your customers. Don't think you see this kind of favoritism in places like London or Frankfurt.

regards

Thanks for sharing those tips. :D Always a good time for learning a little bit.
I also say "maintain heading" :rolleyes: but I never trated a single traffic differently according to nationality. NEVER :=. And believe me, I will not defend ATCo doing it, if they are any, but also blame this behaviour. I don't work in Madrid, but it is hard to believe that this is a common attitude... I believe it happens as you are quite a few pilots pointing at it, but I want to think that these are isolate cases. We are talking about our work here, one thing you believe in and that you want to perform the best way possible. The normal attitude among men is to perform brilliantly, independently of the task assigned.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, it is good to have feedback from "the other side".

Regards

[p_perez]

Latest IFATCA (International Federation of Air Traffic Controllers´Associations) press release: (original here: http://www.ifatca.org/press/270710.pdf)



Is a collapse of the Spanish National Air Traffic Control System Inevitable?

Spain’s Transport Minister, Mr. Jose Blanco, announced that his government will employ military air traffic controllers to guarantee the continuation of civil aviation traffic. This is a dangerous, but not altogether surprising, development.

In February, IFATCA questioned the necessity and expected outcome of Spain’s Royal Decree. IFATCA pointed out that the Decree punishes air traffic controllers for the past economic mismanagement of the ATM system. IFATCA also noted that forcing any specialist in a safety critical field to work in a climate of fear and intimidation is detrimental to the safety of the system. Any recourse to military controllers will simply add another group of specialists to an untenable situation. This will compromise safety and further exacerbate the obviously deep seated problems in the system.

In 1973, sixty-eight persons lost their lives in a mid-air collision in France after military personnel were ordered to control civilian traffic. These lost lives should be enough to prevent any government from contemplating using military staff to control civilian traffic. Military and civilian control is fundamentally different. Providing “rapid training” to military personnel is inappropriate and dangerous.

The problems of the system can only be solved by a commitment of all parties to work together collaboratively for a pragmatic solution. IFATCA is assured that Spain’s air traffic controllers are committed and willing to make reasonable compromises. IFATCA calls on the Spanish Government to respond with the same level of commitment and ensure that the management of AENA proposes similarly reasonable and pragmatic solutions that respect international as well as European law and recommended practices. Only this will safeguard the interest of the flying public and the Spanish air traffic control system and its professionals in the long term.


IFATCA is the worldwide organization representing more than fifty thousand air traffic controllers in 134 countries. Amongst its goals are the promotion of safety, efficiency and regularity in international air navigation and the protection and safeguarding of the interests of the air traffic control profession. www.ifatca.org (http://www.ifatca.org)



P. S. Today we are expecting another Royal Decree-Law against Spanish ATCO´s, the 3rd in 6 months. This is not normal governmental action: this is simple retaliation and revenge. More information after the cabinet meeting this morning.

[Conspiracy Theories]

I have just read the long post here and i am an ATCO in uk and if i am completely honest with you, taking into account the hours that have been done in spain, i'm under the impression that the spanish ATCOs earn more than in the UK per hour worked. i hope that helps.

that asside, i can appreciate the fact that a strike wouldn't help your cause and not giving any direct routeings seems like a sensible case considering that you may be concerned with overloads but when im working and i am feeling like i am being overloaded (and in some cases, plan ahead and think you may become overloaded) all i would do is call the previous sector and say "no more traffic". i don't know if that is an option for you but i agree that overloads are a horrible feeling and i believe they should be investigated more in depth and more often not just dismissed in some cases.

i definitely feel for you guys working in spain at the moment. Ts and Cs are very close to being in a dictatorship. anyway, let me know what you think about the stopping of traffic entering your sector which might cause an overload. would like to hear what you think on that point?

good luck

[El Molo]

Conspiracy theories,

If we talk about the past, before february 5th, probably we earned more per worked hour than any ATCO in the world, but like 70% of the income was from overtime. Overtimes were paid around 2,5 to 3 times the value of ordinary time. So when taking the mean income per hour, it was quite high. Now it is payed 0,8 so everything has changed. We never complained about money, but without overtime, our true fixed salary isn't at the top European class.

Regarding the "I don't accept more traffic" method, this is the most important thing that happened with the february decree: We do not have the operational control anymore, we are not the ones deciding the runway in use, we are not the ones deciding if a calibrator flight has to leave due to high trafic load, and we cannot take flow actions as before. And you are talkng about a flow action. Now it's AENA in charge of operationel decisions, made by people on a business with no ATC license, not having a clue of what's happening inside ACC's. They decide biased by economical issues, and that is the reason why flying in Spain is far from being controlled, the reason why there are so many overloads, the reason also why we cannot direct routes, and, imho, the worst thing that happened on febrary 5th. Far worse than the salary cut. It's the only country where the controllers are not the ones who are in charge of operational decisions, but we keep the responsibility intact, he he.

[Totally_Bananas]

p_perez,

I'm under the impression that ATCO's in Spain have been 'fiddling' the system for years. Bending the rules to achieve over time payments that have resulted in the massive salaries. Also the fact that Spanish Air Traffic is not open to competition as a direct result of union protection results in Spain paying 80 odd million euros in fines to the EU.

Is this incorrect? And is all this punishment you are now suffering a result of taking the pi$$ for to long?


This is what I've been told... how true is all of this?

[PeltonLevel]

However one feels about the Ts & Cs previously enjoyed by Spanish ATCOs, AENA didn't get into a hole this deep without seriously C:mad::mad:P management. Unfortunately for their staff and their users, their way of getting out of the hole seems to have been to fill it with petrol then throw in a match!

One wonder how the previous NATS management regime thought that they could have a meeting of minds when they tried to set up a Joint Venture with AENA to develop ATC systems. Did they do much in the way of due diligence? Still, the lost time and money from that exercise doesn't seem to have significantly harmed anyone's bonuses.

[Frank Disclosure]

The Spanish government should call for Paul Barron, he knows how to reduce ATCOs T&Cs without them getting all upperty.

[Mister Geezer]

I laughed the other day when a Royal Air Maroc (RAM) asked Sevilla for a direct and the controller never answered his repeated requests. A few minutes later the same request was asked by the same pilot in his best Spanish.... and he got what he asked for! :}

[bobwi]

We asked for a direct yesterday in English but very friendly. We told the controler we would realy appreciate his help since we were hours behind schedule. And we got what we asked for.

I don't think the aggressive, and arrogant comments you sometimes hear from pilots help a lot.

I have my frustrations too with the controlers from time to time. But I will never judge them or behave arrogantly. And I think that a lot of critism is exagerated.

Thank you Perez for your explanation. I understand things a bit more now. I wish you luck and hope that at the same time us pilots and pasengers are not too much affected by it.

And for people who keep talking about the high salaries.... I get a bit tired of the mentality that many people have that others shouldn't make more than what they make... It's just jealousy.

[bArt2]

And for people who keep talking about the high salaries.... I get a bit tired of the mentality that many people have that others shouldn't make more than what they make... It's just jealousy.

I'm sorry but I disagree. I and many others have to work 12 hour (or more) days to get 2000 Euro's and some change. We frantically try our best to stick to the schedule and if possible save some fuel and time only to get screwed every time because ATC is on strike or something like that because they will only earn 10 times what we have in stead of the 15 times they used to have.

Now if their actions whould get them somewhere I would understand, but just punishing us because they disaggree with their bosses or politicians frustrates me and it will have no result.
What do their chiefs care if we have our already very long day extended by an hour or two or if we burn a ton extra, they probably don't even notice.

If they want to get to the people in charge they should stop working completely instead of harrassing us.
Or they could just be happy that they still earn in one month what you would normally have to work a year for, even if it means they will have to settle with one Ferrari less each year.

By the way, I'm not jealous but I find it difficult to imagine that when you have such an irrealistically astronomically high sallary you still aren't happy about what you have.

That's just my opinion.

[samotnik]

bart2, I'm sorry, but you're just crying like a baby. It looks like you ARE jealous that someone makes more money than you. I'm sorry to inform you, but there are millions people on Earth making more than 2kEUR/month. Many among them are pilots. Kill'em all.

Maybe you should just become an ATCo? If you think it's an easy job that everybody can perform, than there's nothing easier just to hop in and start doing it, earning those zillions of phollars.

In any case that ATC doesn't give you shortcuts and non-FP levels due to their strike-like action (which is what I disagree, in my opinion it's not a proper way to strike, but anyway in some countries it's the only legal solution), it's your company who has a problem. If your company punishes you because you didn't get a shortcut or didn't manage to take off outside CTOT window, then you simply have a very, very, very ****ty job. Change it ASAP.

If you get back home two hours late on a regular basis, it means nothing more than that your company has a big problem creating schedules appropriate to this busy, high traffic volume and "cost-effective" time.

BTW, remember that some ATCos are fighting their fight because they have the same problem - they do overtime that they don't get paid for and they are forced to come back to work without appropriate rest. And there is no doubt - ATC job is more exhausting than pilot, since it requires constant attention, otherwise situation easily gets bad. So much attention, that if there is a video on youtube showing some ATCos not paying attention to their screens for a couple of seconds, a dozen of pilots calls them 'chimps' and demands to sack them. Bear that in mind next time you will relax in the cockpit, monitoring occasional transmissions, watching beautiful views and drinking cofee served by good-looking attendant. :)

ATC job has one major difference comparing to yours - possibilities to change the employer are very, very limited. So we have no other option than to fight, and you can simply switch to another airline. Which is what I suggest strongly, if any late arrival is your PERSONAL problem and not your company's.

[bArt2]

bart2, I'm sorry, but you're just crying like a baby. It looks like you ARE jealous that someone makes more money than you. I'm sorry to inform you, but there are millions people on Earth making more than 2kEUR/month. Many among them are pilots. Kill'em all.


Like I've said I'm not jealous that's just an argument people use due to lack of a better one. And I did not say that being an ATC controller is an easy job.

What I am saying is that for that kind of money they are getting I think a likewise effort from their side is not too much to ask. And furthermore I don't see how they will get what they want just by making us fly the planned route or turning a 12 hour working day into a 13 hour working day because of the associated slots.

But anyway, I am wasting my time trying to get my point across because it is useless anyway. People tend to see thing from their point of view only, I should not have bothered posting anything.

[ferris]

People tend to see thing from their point of view only Ahh, the irony.

"Sometimes it is better to leave people wondering if you might be a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

[Nightstop]

The way I see it is this...AENA consists of two sections i.e. Airports and Air Traffic Services (= ATC). In recent years the construction industry and thrived on unneeded airport Terminal "improvement" projects such as can be seen today at Madrid, Barcleona, Alicante etc.....pockets have been lined no doubt by many individuals in all politcal parties during their construction.
Now the building boom has come to an end and AENA is looking for new ways to help out it's pals. The cherry now is the Privatisation of Spanish ATC. A few individuals will come out of this very well indeed. This is what this is really all about.

[Frank Disclosure]

Given the state of Spain's finances - the country is broke, has 20% unemployment and virtually 0% growth - then the ATCO's old wage structure looks obscene.

[bobwi]

The strike is called off. At least for august. Negotiations continue. To be continued...

[ILS25]

Spanish Air Traffic Controllers say no strike in August
larger (javascript:ts('outer3',1)) | smaller (javascript:ts('outer3',-1))
By h.b. - Aug 10, 2010 - 9:35 PM

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/spain/uploads/4/cesarcabo2.jpgCésar Cabo, the communications secretary of the USCA union - EFE
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/images/mag.png (http://www.typicallyspanish.com/spain/uploads/4/cesarcabo2.jpg)
The decision has been welcomed by the tourist sector and talks with AENA are set to restart on Wednesday

The Spanish Air Traffic Controllers have decided, in a meeting this (Tuesday) evening that they will not call a strike in August. The USCA union says they have taken the decision following requests from the tourist sector and the airlines, underlining that they understand the concerns voiced by the industry.

USCA Spokesman, César Cabo, said the decision was ‘a demonstration of responsibility’ by the controllers.

Airlines, hoteliers and travel agencies have been quick to welcome the decision.

The Spanish Airport Authority, AENA, has responded to the news by saying that they will restart talks with the union tomorrow, Wednesday.


Read more: Spanish Air Traffic Controllers say no strike in August (http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_26945.shtml#ixzz0wF2myiNF)

[great2fly]

p_perez,

Just wanted to express my deepest sympathy with you and your colleagues. It is indeed shocking to watch the tyranny being imposed on your terms and conditions. Good luck

Are there any further development since your last post ?

[aldegar]

Nothing has improved since summer. And on top of that this week AENA has notified us (of course without negotiating) that hour working hours have been increased to 1800 (used to be 1200 and then 1670 after the decree on february) and how and when we have to enjoy next year's holidays.

Last ATCOs coming out from the "old" ATC school (since the decree we now have three new private ATC schools in Spain) have just been employed by AENA with a different contract and with salaries ranging from 1800 to 2100 euros (taxes not included).

In the next weeks we'll know (or so they say) which twrs will be privatized. We still have no idea of what is going to happen with the ATCOs working in them.

And looks like our situation is spreading to other countries (preparing for the single sky?). I'm happy to see that at last we are starting to have some coordination between european ATC trade unions.

[saintex2002]

...Coordination between unions is not enough...
...Decisions between unions would be better...
And, that's urgent... IMHO ;)

[aldegar]

Absolutely right, coordination without further action is useless :ok:

The countdown has started and we don't have much time left...

[p_perez]

A small update here:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/416995-spanish-atc-35.html#post6067318

I feel that the climax is near ...

Saludos!