The Union Flag

[PPRuNe Pop]

Just lately I have seen quite a number of flags being flown upside down.

Its a trend that seems to be growing. Is it that our schools or whoever, is not bothering to teach people how to fly the flag?

I even saw one on our local British Legion hall upside down. I put a little note in the door saying that it was very 'distressing' to see such a thing!

It was righted the same day.

[dakkg651]

Too right.

Should be deemed a crime punishable by hanging from the nearest gibbet!

[GANNET FAN]

For those of us that can't remember which is the right way up!!??

[dakkg651]

Gannet Fan.

The top of the flag should be uppermost of course.

[charliegolf]

Look at the upper quadrant against the pole (at the hoist?). The upper white bit should be fat not thin.

Now remind me: toggle or loop on top?

CG

[Union Jack]

For those of us that can't remember which is the right way up!!??

Try this for size

Ships Nostalgia (http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/member.php?u=38765)

And yes, I do know when it's a jack rather than a flag! Well, I should .....:ok:

Jack

[Chugalug2]

Ah memories, memories! Your post takes me back to Ascension Island, Pop, in the early 70's. The airfield even then was US administered, with Pan-Am Security Officers. Their job, inter alia, was to raise and lower the US and UK National Flags, morning and evening respectively. Our job, inter alia, was to seek them out immediately after breakfast and complain that the Union Flag had been raised upside down. It was not necessary to have visually confirmed that beforehand and indeed would have been pointless, none of us knowing which way was up anyway. Other than the Nav of course, who tiresomely knew everything about everything, as was common with his ilk!

[PPRuNe Pop]

For all the smart a****.


How can you tell if the union flag (union jack) is upside down? (http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/geography/unionjack7.html)

[RedhillPhil]

The flag should be displayed in every schoolroom like it is in the U.S. of A. People would then know from an early age. problem is, every "right on" council would want to display every other country's flags as a mark of equality.

[Pontius Navigator]

And:

How high is a flag at "half mast"?

It is not half way up the flag pole, as you might have expected, but the height of the flag from the top of the pole.

The practice of half-masting a flag arose to serve cases of the death of a sailor on the ship. The flag was half-masted to inform other vessels that the crew were mourning their shipmate, and hence a polite request that they not be disturbed. After the committal, the flag was raised to full staff, to indicate that the mourning period was ended.

And the correct way to put a flag at half-mast is to raise the flag to the top then lower it exactly by the depth of the flag, ie a flag 5 feet x 3 feet would be lowered exactly 3 feet.

And the easy way to have the flag right way up is to buy a proper flag with a toggle close at the top and on a 2 foot tail on the bottom. It is the cheap Chinese copies that don't have proper toggles and tails that cause the problem.

[Blacksheep]

The Union Jack is NEVER flown upside down.

If the Union Flag is flown on a ship it is a Jack. It is illegal to fly a Union Flag on a civilian vessel, so the only place you'll find a Union Jack is on a British warship and thus, by definition, it wouldn't be possible for such a dreadful thing to happen. (It might be hoisted part of the way upside down but someone's guts would be getting fashioned into garters long before it had a chance to reach the top of the jackstaff.

The Union Flag is also the rank flag of an Admiral of the Fleet and would be flown on any ship in which the Admiral of the Fleet was present. It could then be flown upside down.

Go on. I double-dog dare you! ;)

[helidriver]

I was always taught by my Grandad (RIP) (RN during WW2) that the Union Jack could be flown upside down to indicate a ship in distress, i.e. taken over by pirates etc.

Is this a salty sea dog story or a very old waaah?

h

[Pontius Navigator]

Blacksheep,

I fear you may be incorrect.

First the Union Jack may be flown upside down but if you ensure the tail is at the bottom you would ensure that you do not make that error.

Then your assertion that it is only flown on HM Warships is also incorrect.

The company for whom my father worker for many a year always flew the Pilot Jack at the bow. Now, with many ostensibly British vessels flagged in Bermuda this is probably rare. P&O fly their company pennant at there.

If you look at the following link: and scroll to the City of Ottawa, which is dressed overall, you will see she is flying the Jack at the bow.

Google Image Result for http://www.rhiw.com/y_mor/ships_photos_03/ellerman_line/city_of_new_york.jpg (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rhiw.com/y_mor/ships_photos_03/ellerman_line/city_of_new_york.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rhiw.com/y_mor/ships_photos_03/ellerman_line/ellerman_01.htm&usg=__TSH4BdPg56x00exca68CdEorIpE=&h=489&w=800&sz=58&hl=en&start=5&itbs=1&tbnid=HmgpYzs9DioDHM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dellerman%2Bline%2Bships%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26gb v%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1)

[GANNET FAN]

Pontius, are you sure that the Jack flown on the City of Ottawa is not the Union Jack with a white border. I cant remember what that particular flag is called

[GANNET FAN]

Pilot Jack ?

[Shack37]

Should be deemed a crime punishable by hanging from the nearest gibbet!


By the ankles of course.:E

[NutLoose]

Sad to say but one of my pet hates, thick white band to the top left side if on an aircraft on the port side, the stb has the thin to the top on the left as it is done as it would be flying in the wind, so the thick white band at the top would be on the right side of the flag as the aircraft nose is into wind so to speak....

The French Grand Prix a couple of years ago the French had positioned the flag logos with the drivers name above the pits showing them to be in distress, (upside down) then again it was the season of spygate.

Looking at an Electra hulk at coventry the other day it too had then in distress, but as it was being robbed for spares and in effect its flying days had ended, perhaps it was apt.


Just re read that.....blimey I need to get out more :E

[Capetonian]

Pisses me off to see the SA Flag upside down too .....

http://cdn.24.com/files/Cms/General/d/362/b8b9a330cbaf4e16a30de2693648a9cf.jpg

Red at the top ....

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/12/14648515_7a5500cbae.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

Gannet, it is indeed the one with a white border which I believe is the Union Jack as opposed to one with no border which us the Union Flag.

and

Pilot Jack

The Union Jack with a white border.The flag in a white border occasionally seen on merchant ships was sometimes referred to as the Pilot Jack. It can be traced back to 1823 when it was created as a signal flag, never intended as a civil jack. A book issued to British consuls in 1855 states that the white bordered Union Flag is to be hoisted for a pilot. Although there was some ambiguity regarding the legality of it being flown for any other purpose on civilian vessels, its use as an ensign or jack was established well in advance of the 1864 Act that designated the Red Ensign for merchant shipping. In 1970 the white-bordered Union Flag ceased to be the signal for a pilot, but references to it as national colours were not removed from the current Merchant Shipping Act and it was legally interpreted as a flag that could be flown on a merchant ship, as a jack if desired. This status was confirmed by the Merchant Shipping (Registration, etc.) Act 1993 and the consolidating Merchant Shipping Act 1995 which prohibits the use of any distinctive national colours or those used or resembling flags or pendants on Her Majesty's Ships, except the Red Ensign, the Union Flag with a white border, and some other exceptions permitted elsewhere in the Acts.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Nut Loose! I am surprised at you.

On my aeroplanes we had the flag on both sides and EACH side has the wide band at the top. Your way would be flying backwards! Think of it this way. When you paint the flag think of the nose being the staff with the wide band at the top - walk to the other side of the staff and it will still be wide white band at the top - you are thinking TWO flags when there is only one. Or another way - left or right on the staff they are the same.

You were having a larf - right!

[Union Jack]

Pontius, are you sure that the Jack flown on the City of Ottawa is not the Union Jack with a white border. I cant remember what that particular flag is called. Pilot Jack? - Gannet Fan

And if defaced with a white disc in the centre marked "QHM" with a St Edward's Crown above QHM, then it's a Queen's Harbourmaster's flag, as in QHM Portsmouth. Plymouth, and Clyde.

Jack

PS BZ Gannet Fan!

[Miles Magister]

Perhaps someone could clarify my understanding that individuals should not fly the Union flag on land, only government organisations should be flying it.

Individuals and non-goverment organisations should be flying their national flags.

Is this so?

MM

[Pontius Navigator]

from wikipedia

The Union Flag can be flown by any individual or organisation in England, Scotland or Wales on any day of their choice. Legal regulations restrict the use of the Union Flag on Government buildings in Northern Ireland. Long-standing restrictions on Government use of the flag elsewhere were abolished in July 2007.[3][4]

[30mRad]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that if the Union Flag is flown upside down on a vessel it indicated it has been hijacked.....

[Mick Strigg]

The Union Flag is flown from the Jack Staff of HM Ships when at anchor or alongside. The Jack Staff is the small flag pole at the bow of a ship as can be seen here:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/upload/img_400/HMS_Iron_Duke.jpg

This gave rise to the term that the flag was the Union Jack. It does not have a white border.

[Blacksheep]

On a British warship the Union flag is only flown as a Jack from the Jackstaff while the ship is not under way or from the masthead as the rank flag of an Admiral of the Fleet to indicate that he is aboard the vessel, whether under way or not.

As I said earlier, the national flag of the United Kingdom may not legally be flown from a civilian vessel as it indicates that the ship is a warship in the service of the crown or that it is the flagship of an Admiral of the Fleet. That is why a ship under pilotage flies the pilot flag - a union flag with a thick white border. The flag flown at the stern of a ship is the ensign and it takes superiority over all other flags flown on the ship no matter that they may be flown from a higher position. The Union Flag is never flown as an ensign.

[Arkroyal]

I too am dismayed by the number of british people who don't know, or seem to care which is the right way up for our national flag.

I had a strange conversation some years back with a receptionist at a hotel in Wilmington North Carolina, whose establishment had raised the union flag to welcome one of HM's war canoes due later that day.

I marched up to the front desk and told herthat the flag was upside down, and the arriving ship's company would be quite insulted to see it, so asked if the error could be rectified.

She answered that it was impossible to hang the union flag upside down!

Quick word with her boss averted a major international incident.

I suppose they can be escused. After all it was the same year that the US Marines marched on to the pitch at the 'World Series' with the Canadian Flag upside down!

[NutLoose]

Nut Loose! I am surprised at you.

On my aeroplanes we had the flag on both sides and EACH side has the wide band at the top. Your way would be flying backwards! Think of it this way. When you paint the flag think of the nose being the staff with the wide band at the top - walk to the other side of the staff and it will still be wide white band at the top - you are thinking TWO flags when there is only one. Or another way - left or right on the staff they are the same.

You were having a larf - right!

That is what I said, it is still on the top on both sides, but on the port side of the plane it is top left of the flag as is the norm when the flag is displayed, however on the Stb side it is top right of the flag as the nose of the aircraft is the flagstaff, so the stb side is in effect looking at the rear face of the flag........ read my post again, that is what I have said.

they are not the same because the wide band is only on one side of the flag when it is on the top,so it flips horizontal on the stb side..

This one is actually the wrong way round the thick white bar should be fwd on the Stb side of the aircraft....

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/3/7/1483737.jpg

[Wander00]

It was carried at the Winter Olympics with the flag upside down.I e-mailed the British Olympic Committee, but had no reply. Hope they get it right in London in 2012.

[Just a spotter]

Not specific to the Union Flag, but as I'm sure many on this thread already know, it is generally considered to be disrespecting a national flag to

a) Wear it as an item of clothing
b) Deface it in any way (including writing on it).

Odd then, that we regularly see soccer fans from Ireland and the UK, who I suspect would declare themselves as proud of their nationality and flag, with their national flag draped around themselves or defaced with club or pub names scrawled across them.:confused:

(that said, many flags being sold as Irish Tricolours seen about the place are in fact the wrong shape.)

JAS

[MightyGem]

It annoys me as well.
It was carried at the Winter Olympics with the flag upside down
Yes, I saw that as well. :ugh: Did you see Michael Palin's tour of Eastern Europe on the television? I think it was Latvia where they were preparing for a Royal visit, and yes, it was upside down. :ugh::ugh:

I was walking around the camp in Banja Luka in 1996, and there it was, on some squaddie's portakabin, upside down. :ugh: :ugh: Words were had on that occasion.

[rab-k]

A seldom seen version, not since the 17th c. anyways...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3401/3589637303_d28495046d.jpg

The "Scotch Union Flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag#Scottish_Union_Flag)"; used in the Kingdom of Scotland pre.1707 Union.

[The B Word]

Trust the Irish to give us a flag that could go upside down - before that, everything was fine!!

http://www.puritanhead.com/uploaded_images/Graphics/UnionJack.jpg

[GreenKnight121]

If you ask those with the Union flag "upside-down", you might be surprised at the number who know d&mn well how it should go, and who flew it wrong-way-up intentionally! They are protesting what they see as a government that is leading the country in the wrong direction (i.e. "the nation is in distress").


Here in the US, for the past 8 or so years, there has been an outbreak of such protests... first Democrats flying the "Star-spangled Banner" upside-down in protest over Bush-43's winning of the presidency (and his subsequent policies), and now Republicans doing so in protest of Obama's Presidency (and Democratic control of Congress).

[GANNET FAN]

While on the subject, why do some football supporters insist on using the White Ensign. Ignorant pillocks

I once asked an owner of a 110' yacht registered in Italy why the yacht was wearing an undefaced blue ensign. Answer, because it is very preeety! I asked to see his warrant; great puzzlement, it was changed!

[Unixman]

Ok .. here is a little one for you guys. Apart from RN ships carrying a 4* admiral, which other ships are entitled to fly a St Georges Cross?

[Schiller]

Dunkirk Little Ships

[Unixman]

Not quite: there is a catch. They are only allowed to fly the St Georges Cross when in company. Otherwise they fly the St Georges Cross defaced with the arms of Dunkirk. (And only if the owner is aboard!)

[Gainesy]

Just thinking, all this Mornington Crescent-type bollocks probably keeps a retired Admiral and a couple of Commanders in weird titles, costumes and sherbets...

... and a retired General and a couple of Colonels in the same manner for regulating said weird costumes and titles.

What do retired Airships do?

[diginagain]

What do retired Airships do?
Deflate?

(and some other stuff to make up the numbers).

[Blacksheep]

What do retired Airships do?The two that I've met potter about in the garden, walk their dogs and fly vintage aeroplanes upside down just for fun.

...and in case you've never noticed, though both the Royal Navy and the Army fly the Union Jack/Flag from their jackstaffs/flagpoles, the Royal Air Force never flies the Union Flag from their pole.

The service that properly follows the rule that the unit's Ensign is superior to all other flags.

[Ace Rimmer]

And aside from the Grey Funnel line the only folks who can fly the White Ensign are members of the RYS and then only in conjunction with the club burgee and then only when the owner is aboard (there is also some restriction that bateau in question has to be at least 30ft LOA - but that's moot since I doubt any member of the Squadron would have a boat that small - unless it was a tender!)

[Tankertrashnav]

Near the railway line between Cardiff and Swansea lives a bloke who flies a Welsh flag, an Irish tricolour and a Confederate flag in his garden. Would love to own the house next door so I could fly the Union Flag just to annoy him.

Mind you its about the only reason I can think of for living in that area

(Tin hat, runs for cover to escape the wrath of the Taffia)

[Wander00]

Ace Rimmmer - or tender to the tender!

[vecvechookattack]

How did the rank "Ensign" come into being? Did it have anything to do with the flag, tatooing, or, staffs?

The most Junior Officer was the chap who would normally carry the Ensign....Hence the rank. That rank is not used in the Royal Navy

[Tankertrashnav]

It was, however used in the British army in the 19th century and was the old name for a second lieutenant in the infantry. The equivalent rank in the cavalry was Cornet, and this still exists. Harry used to be Cornet Wales, as I recall.

[advocatusDIABOLI]

I suppose, that if I were to fly my 'Union Jack' outside 'My' House in 'England' which is fully bought and paid for, either way up....

..... I'd probably get an ASBO for upsetting 'Johnny' in the area.

Progress.

I hate to think what would happen if I raised the George Flag (Now that bu@@er you can't get wrong!)

Good Old England..... will always survive. Or will It?

Advo

PS- Somewhat Ironically, my American neighbours (When living in the USA) had NO problem with me flying the Union Jack. Although I did take it down on 4th July, out of respect.

[FlapJackMuncher]

It gets my goat to see the Flag of St George flown upside down too.
B'stards

[Pontius Navigator]

FJM, you mean with the word upside down?:\

[advocatusDIABOLI]

BlackSheep,

Sir (or Madmam),

That might be true. But if it is. It's Rubish and Wrong.

I don't know why we all don't happily display OUR national flags, why shouldn't we???

I'm as English as the next Scot (is Scotish) I speak to, why can't I spread my FLAG??

It's a rhetorical question really. We still feel bad about being the Nation that had it.... and lost it. Bottom line, we have chuffed away the lot.

Advo

[doubledolphins]

Just one little gripe. The stick at the pointy end is called the Jack staff because the Jack is flown from it. Similarly the stick at the blunt end is called the ensign staff because the ensign is flown from it. When the Union Jack is flown ashore it becomes a Union Flag. It is also a Flag when flown at the main to indicate an admiral of the fleet (5*) is embarked.

P&O ships have always flown the company House Flag from their jack staffs. This is made up of diagonal quarters comprised of the colours of the royal houses of Spain and Portugal.

[Schiller]

In Nelson's day the flag was almost always referred to as the Union Jack, irrespective of where it was flown. I've just (this morning) been reading a diary of 1805 in which 'Union Jack' is even used to refer the the flag covering the body of a seaman prior to it being committed to the deep.

[doubledolphins]

Absolutely right. :ok:

[Mick Strigg]

Quote:
What do retired Airships do?
Deflate?

[Union Jack]

It gets my goat to see the Flag of St George flown upside down too.

Not half as much as it irritates me to see the White Ensign being used by all and sundry to demonstrate their support for some football team or another!

I can only suppose that they see it as a combination of two flags, both of which they seem to recognise as being associated with England to some degree or another, with lots of "useful" space on which to deface the ensign with the name of their ghastly team.:ugh:

It is of course a combination of two flags, but with a much more serious association than supporting some dreadful football team!:ok:

Jack