Flying "N" Registered Plane in Australia...

[Peter Rejto]

First, apologies if I'm posting in the wrong forum, but I suspect that a group of instructors will have knowledge of the regs.

I fly my N registered Mooney in Australia on my FAA license. Not a problem. An instructor (several years ago)with both a FAA and CASA license told me that a CASA licensed pilot could legally fly my airplane without an FAA license. He said that the only place my aircraft could not be flown on a CASA license was in the USA. All I remember about this conversation, which frankly surprised me, was that he mentioned some ICAO regulation that allowed this reciprocal agreement between member countries.

I would like verification of this, or otherwise. And if somebody can show me that regulation I would be most grateful! THANKS!!

[Whopity]

The regulation you are looking for is in FAR-AIM. It states that an N Reg aircraft may be flown in another country by a pilot who is licensed in that State, so a CASA qualified pilot can fly your N Reg aircraft in Australia; but nowhere else. The information the instructor gave you was only partially correct. e.g. he could not fly it in New Zealand.

The ICAO reference you refer to is in ICAO Annex 11.2.2.2 Recommendation.— A pilot licence issued by a
Contracting State should be rendered valid by other
Contracting States for use in private flights.
Note.— Contracting States which, without formality, render
valid a licence issued by another Contracting State for use in
private flights are encouraged to notify this facility in their
Aeronautical Information Publications.

This is the recommendation by which you could fly say an Australian Reg aircraft on the basis of your FAA Licence. Each State treats the recommendation in a different way and normally requires a validation to be issued. The UK allows anyone holding a valid ICAO licence to fly a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the World when exercising PPL privileges under VFR.

The CASA pilot flying your aircraft is not exercising this privilege, he is complying with the rules of the State of registration.

[IO540]

FAR 61.3 says you can fly an N-reg anywhere in the world on a non-FAA license, provided that license is issued by the owner of the airspace.

So on a CASA license you can fly an N-reg only in Australia.

[Peter Rejto]

Thank you both for these helpful replies.

One point of clarification if I might.

While FAR 61.3 gives permission to fly the aircraft in Australia with a CASA license, why does that mean that CASA must accept what is an FAA regulation? Could not CASA say, well that is an American regulation and we do not accept it. Hence my question about ICAO. Would such an agreement not need to be reciprocal? In other words, an FAA licensed pilot in the USA could fly a VH registered aircraft in American airspace. I assume this to be true also, but where is such reciprocity stated?

[IO540]

The privileges (if any) which a given piece of paper gives you in a given aircraft are according to the State of the aircraft registry (the FAA in this case).

But the airspace owner can add his own rules.

ICAO allows (unsuprisingly) each country to have total sovereignity over its airspace, so Australia could ban the flight of an N-reg on an Australian license, in its airspace, if they wanted to. Or they could require you to wear pink underpants (in its airspace) :) But this is evidently rare; I have never heard of such a prohibition.

For example, equipment carriage requirements are based on the airspace and thus transcend aircraft registration, so an N-reg has to carry an ADF and a DME if flying IFR in CAS in the UK, and needs a DME for IFR just about anywhere in Europe.

[Whopity]

Peter,

An aircraft is like a Ship, it is part of the sovereign territory of the State of Registration. The crewing of that vessel is the responsibility of the State of Registration and their rules apply with regard to its operation and maintenance. To use it in another State it has to meet agreed ICAO requirements and it is of course subject to the airspace requirements of the State where it operates. Inside this little bubble of US property, US rules prevail!

[IO540]

I read somewhere that being born in an N-reg no longer gives you US citizenship.

If that still worked, it would be quite a business opportunity ;)

I think it still works on ships.

[Peter Rejto]

So if (hypothetically) CASA were about to revoke a CASA license for operating a non-VH registered aircraft, could a defense be mounted?

[hihover]

Very unlikely that you'd have any kind of redress because CASA know the rules. They know what they can and can't do within the ICAO requirements/guidelines.

I'm not sure what you are getting at but if they revoke anything, they will have a reason for doing so. It may take some understanding but in the end, it is their airspace and we, as pilots, only have privileges, not rights.

I doubt you'll win the battle so if I were you, I'd be looking at the other ways of achieving your aim.

Good luck.

tam macklin

[Peter Rejto]

I beg to differ in your opinion about CASA (or the FAA for that matter), but that is another matter entirely and not really relevant to this discussion. Rules are all subject to interpretation, and rules often conflict. This can keep the law business very active!

And to be 100% precise this "case" has nothing to do with my aircraft, or me, in any way. I'm simply curious given that I have had requests from CASA licensed pilots to fly my aircraft which is N registered. When I heard about this pending case it has renewed my interest to find out the facts around this whole somewhat murky issue.

If I understand previous posts, a foreign aircraft could hypothetically be operated in australian airspace with a CASA license if the following conditions were met:

1. The country of registration allows it by regulation, such as the USA does.

2. The aircraft has to "meet agreed ICAO requirements." (can anyone point me to where those are stated?)

3. The aircraft has to meet the airspace requirements in Australia.

Would I be incorrect in then assuming that unless there is a specific CASA regulation banning such flights that the flight would be legal if the 3 conditions were met?

[Lasiorhinus]

Foreign registered aircraft (including N-reg) operate in Australia every day. Think of airliners.

While FAR 61.3 gives permission to fly the aircraft in Australia with a CASA license, why does that mean that CASA must accept what is an FAA regulation? Could not CASA say, well that is an American regulation and we do not accept it.

An aircraft, foreign registered, flying in Australia is operated by a pilot who is deemed qualified, by the State of Registration of the aircraft, to fly it.

So if (hypothetically) CASA were about to revoke a CASA license for operating a non-VH registered aircraft, could a defense be mounted?

There is nothing anywhere that even remotely suggests you cannot use Australian licenses for things other than flying Australian-registered aircraft. It's not a case of a defense being mounted: this would be like the police attempting to prosecute you for using a car drivers license as ID to enter a nightclub.

[Peter Rejto]

Well, I have it on good authority that CASA IS doing exactly what you think they cannot.

The only thing that I do not know is the country of registration of the aircraft in question. Without knowing that fact I think that it is impossible to know if that country has authorized the operation of the aircraft by a foreign licensed pilot - in this case a CASA licensed pilot- similar to what FAR 61.3 does. I would suppose that minus a similar regulation that pilot might be in trouble. Still I would imagine that most countries would need such a stipulation.

[IO540]

1. The country of registration allows it by regulation, such as the USA does.

2. The aircraft has to "meet agreed ICAO requirements." (can anyone point me to where those are stated?)

3. The aircraft has to meet the airspace requirements in Australia.

Correct.

ICAO means having an ICAO Certificate of Airworthiness, which means maintenance etc to the requirements of the State of Registry, etc.

I know nothing about Australia but here in the UK the (rare) situations where the UK CAA exercised their rights to ban foreign license use on a G-reg (any ICAO PPL holder can fly a G-reg worldwide, normally) were where somebody p*ssed them off by doing something provocative.

A frequently quoted example is somebody failing the UK CAA medical and getting an FAA PPL and an FAA medical (which may involve failing to declare some "relevant" stuff to the FAA doctor; the same trick is possible with a CAA doctor but is a bit less likely to work) and then publicly sticking the middle finger up to the CAA and carrying on flying.

[Whopity]

I would suggest that for CASA to take such action the aircraft would have had to have been operating illegally. That could be down to maintenance, registration irregularities or perhaps the type of operation.

[hihover]

Peter,

Without knowing more detail of the case you are questioning we could go around in circles all day long. I agree that rules are occasionally open to interpretation but the way it works (at its simplest) is this:

Australia signs the Chicago Convention, agreeing to use the same set of guidelines for civil aviation as all other signatories.

It is up to the Australians (CASA) to decide how they will comply with the requirements of the agreement, therefore, they come up with the rules pertaining to aircraft on the Australian registry and to Australian qualified pilots.

Enforcement of the rules is the responsibility of CASA.

I would be very surprised if they have misinterpreted one of their own rules. I am sure there is more to the story.

Tam Macklin

[blackburn]

Found the following CAR 84 which could be relevant to this discussion:

84 Use and operation of radiocommunication systems by foreign aircraft
(1) The pilot in command of a foreign aircraft in which a radiocommunication system is installed, or carried, and that is in Australian territory:
(a) must not use, or permit the use of, the radiocommunication system if there is not in force a licence to install and operate the radiocommunication system issued by the appropriate authority of the country of nationality of the aircraft;
(b) must not operate the radiocommunication system if the pilot is not the holder of an appropriate licence issued by the appropriate authority of the country of nationality of the aircraft; and
(c) must not permit the operation of the radiocommunication system by a person who is not the holder of a licence of a kind referred to in the last preceding paragraph.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) Subregulation (1) applies only to a radiocommunication system installed or carried for the purpose of ensuring the safe navigation of the aircraft.
(3) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.

I have heard there are maintenance implications on flying N registered aircraft that can only be addressed by the pilot, as the holder of a US licence. Open to more advice on this.

Blackburn

[Peter Rejto]

Hmm...

That is an interesting twist. I have a radio license issued by the FCC in the USA, but presumably a CASA licensed pilot would not have that, and might not be able to get one. Not everyone needs, or bothers, to obtain the radio license as it seems only to be required when operating outside the USA. Basically if I remember from 25-30 years ago it was send in a simple form and a small fee and it arrived in the mail... A pretty useless piece of paper that proves nothing. If this is what CASA is hanging this guy for it seems a shame. But it must be more than that because it says 10 penalty points and my friend indicated they were revoking the license. I'm going to try to find out more about the case.

[IO540]

If you fly an N-reg outside the USA, the aircraft needs an FCC radio license.

Normally, you buy this from your N-reg trustee (an N-reg must be owned by a US citizen, in simple terms).

However, each pilot of such aircraft also needs his personal FCC radio license. Not a lot of people know this. One buys this from the FCC website; I vaguely recall it costs about 100 quid and lasts about 10 years.

Somebody asked me the other day whether a pilot flying an N-reg outside the USA on an FAA piggyback (61.75) license also needs this FCC radio license - even though his underlying license already has a radio license of its own. I haven't got a clue what the answer to that is.....

[Whopity]

Somebody asked me the other day whether a pilot flying an N-reg outside the USA on an FAA piggyback (61.75) license also needs this FCC radio license - even though his underlying license already has a radio license of its own.
If they wish to operate the radio then they need a FCC radio certificate. (http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=wncol) The FAA pilot Certificate contains no radio privileges and the RT licence contained in or with the supporting licence probably has no validity in a N reg aircraft. If you were flying a N reg on the basis of a UK pilot licence it is presumed that the UK FRTOL is valid as there is no legislation to the contrary. Equally there is nothing to say that it is.

[PhillC]

I'm currently flying G-reg aircraft in the UK on my Australian issued PPL(A) licence. However, I cannot fly G-reg aircraft in any other country on my Australian PPL licence. So, despite what was said earlier in this thread, I cannot for instance fly a G-reg aircraft in France using my Australian licence.

Specifically, the response I have from my query to the CAA about this states:

"I can confirm that as the holder of valid ICAO licence you are entitled to fly a G-Registered Aircraft in United Kingdom Air Space subject to the conditions outlined in Articles 62 and 63 of the ANO 2009."

The UK is one of the few countries in JAA/JAR/EASA land (read Europe) that explicitly validates ICAO licences for flying G-reg aircraft in their airspace, without any further rigmarole. I've looked into flying in Austria with my Australian PPL, on OE registered aircraft, and there were several hoops I needed to jump through with the Austrian CAA, including a number of specific written validation procedures.

If I wish to fly a G-reg aircraft elsewhere in Europe, then I need to convert to a JAR PPL to do this.

[Peter Rejto]

PhillC,

Your situation in the UK is interesting. The question relevant to me would be: Could you, for instance, fly a G registered plane in Australia using just your CASA license? You may not know, but that's the question! The question I really want answered is may a CASA licenses pilot fly an "N" registered plane in Australia legally? The answer seems to be a big "maybe!" An earlier post points out the necessity of having an FCC radio license and I'm not sure if a non-USA citizen can get one.

[PhillC]

I don't know the specifics of an N-reg in Australia, however there are a lot of N-reg aircraft being flown in the UK. These are generally flown with a UK issued JAA licence, and no need for a personal FCC radio licence.

See this page:

License Privileges, Aircraft Registers, Etc (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/faa-nreg/imcr-nreg.html)

Specifically the section that says:

Flying an N-reg around Europe, using a JAA license, VFR
FAR 61.3 (a) (1) says: "when operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used".
This enables an N-reg to be flown worldwide, without the pilot having any FAA license, provided the pilot has a license issued by the country in question. Unless of course prohibited by the local authorities, but such a prohibition appears to be very rare.
So, one can fly an N-reg in the UK with a UK issued PPL (which can be the old CAA PPL, or a UK issued JAA PPL). One can fly an N-reg in Germany with a German issued PPL. Etc.

I reckon your best bet is to write to CASA and/or the FAA to obtain an answer in writing specifically regarding the Australian situation.

[Whopity]

Could you, for instance, fly a G registered plane in Australia using just your CASA license? Yes you can because it says so in the UK ANO Article 62. Similarly you can fly an N Reg because it says you can in FAR 61.3 however you cannot fly an Australian Reg Aircraft on either a UK or FAA licence without holding a validation issued by CASA.
However, I cannot fly G-reg aircraft in any other country on my Australian PPL licence.Yes you can! There is no territorial limit on the privilege within Article 62 and the UK ANO applies to a G Reg aircraft wherever it may be in the World. Art 247Extra-territorial effect of the Order(b)
247.—(1) Except where the context otherwise requires, the provisions of this Order, in so far as they apply (whether by express reference or otherwise)—
(a) to aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, apply to such aircraft wherever they may be; If you have any questions relating to the content of the ANO you should make them to the following address and not to clerks at Gatwick who sadly don't seem to know what they are talking about!
4 Enquiries
4.1 Any comments or other communication relating to the contents of CAP 393 should be addressed to the Editor at CAA House, 45-59 Kingsway, London WC2B 6TE or by e-mail to [email protected]. You do not need a JAA licence to operate G Reg in other countries. You may need a JAA licence to fly a locally registered aircraft in some European countries because they ceased to recognise National licences issued by JAA States but that is contrary to the principles of ICAO Annex1! Switzerland is one.

[PhillC]

However, I cannot fly G-reg aircraft in any other country on my Australian PPL licence.

Yes you can! There is no territorial limit on the privilege within Article 62 and the UK ANO applies to a G Reg aircraft wherever it may be in the World. Art 247

Right until I'm ramp checked in France and my aircraft is impounded, because I don't have a specific UK validation document. And you know the French would do it, because they have no idea that the UK ANO implicitly validates other ICAO licences for flying G-reg aircraft.

I'm happy that the UK CAA has written to me specifically saying I can fly G-reg in UK airspace. I won't try any other airspace until I have obtained a JAA/JAR licence.

[Whopity]

Right until I'm ramp checked in France and my aircraft is impounded, because I don't have a specific UK validation documentThere is no such document required; if you wish, you can carry a copy of ANO Article 62 and perhaps 247 which proves that you have the right to operate that aircraft. People have been doing it for years with no problem.

It is unfortunate that you have been fed inaccurate information by someone at the CAA; do you perhaps know their name so that they can be correctly informed before they spread any more incorrect information. If in doubt email the address I gave you and ask the question of their legal dept.
See your PMs.