Information about TAM & GOL

[Sail]

Hello to all my colleagues here

Im trying to gather some information about those two brazilian airlines.I would thankful if any of you with experience in those companies or with good source of information could mention here how are things going on.

My main concerns are : roster, bases, salary, command upgrade and company attitude towards the pilot.

Thank you in advance guys
Obrigado!

[alemaobaiano]

If you are looking for work there is only one question. Are you a Brazilian citizen, either by birth or naturalisation?

TTFN

[flyingswiss]

I Just met a Columbian Crew flying on A319 PR-AVB ....what is that all about

[GBV]

Probably they are not "Columbian", but Colombian...:ugh:.

Since Avianca Brazil just got their A320, they most likely didn't have Training Captains for it, it's a new type on their fleet. Those Colombian guys can work in Brazil for up to 6 months while training the Brazilian crews. It's all written and explained in the CBAR...

[flyingswiss]

Sorry about that........

I saw Capt and FO, I know about that rule of the six months.
My former employer, who is also the biggest Emb training provider told me about this rule when I was moving to Brazil.

I also know of some foreign pilots that are flying for Rico.

TAM has actually a German pilot, I think he was born in POA from German family, he moved back, Germany does not allow dual passport but he is flying here in Brazil now.

[DA7X]

"TAM has actually a German pilot, I think he was born in POA from German family, he moved back, Germany does not allow dual passport but he is flying here in Brazil now."

But he certainly has a Brazilian passport. I know a Swiss who is working (flying) in Brazil, he happened to be born in BR, he is the only Brazilian in his family.

[alemaobaiano]

I also know of some foreign pilots that are flying for Rico.

As the current Rico fleet consists of one Bandeirante and one Brasilia, serving five destinations in one state (Amazonas) I doubt that they have much need for foreign pilots, or many pilots of any nationality come to that.

TTFN

[flyingswiss]

He does not, as I said in Germany you can`t have double citizenship. I met this guy at ANAC. He told me that the first time he got his CCF there was a bunch of Bolivian PLAs taking the test, he had no idea of the reason.

One of my buddies when I use to work for Flight Safety International was a guy from Peru that flew in Brazil.....even for FAB.

Marica Taxi aereo has an English pilot, he has been flying in Brazil for one year now.

[alemaobaiano]

He does not, as I said in Germany you can`t have double citizenship. I met this guy at ANAC. He told me that the first time he got his CCF there was a bunch of Bolivian PLAs taking the test, he had no idea of the reason.

You might want to check German nationality law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law) before you make absolute statements. He could easily maintain his citizenship by birth (Brazilian) and citizenship by family (German).

One of my buddies when I use to work for Flight Safety International was a guy from Peru that flew in Brazil.....even for FAB.

Exchange service is quite common in the military world, during my military career I served with the Air Force of another country.

Marica Taxi aereo has an English pilot, he has been flying in Brazil for one year now.

Maybe he was born here too? Maybe they need his experience for oilfield or fire-fighting work? Maybe he works for charity?


TTFN

[flyingswiss]

My mom has German citizenship but she can`t use it. When she became Swiss she had to deposit the passport.

In Brazil rules don`t count anything, there is always a way to do what you want.

When I first moved here (I came with a tourist Visa) they told me I would never be able to get an RNE without getting married, having a kid with a citizen or invest money. They also said that I would never be able to do anything from Brazil and that I would have to go back an work with the consulate in my own country.

I didn`t even had to claim all the time I spent in Brazil before, which would allow me to stay.

Now I have RNE and work license. I didn`t got married or anything.

before I got my perm Visa they gave me a temporary, they told me I would get the permanent in 2 months, after 5 months nothing I went back and the guy told me that there was a problem in my process and it was never started, but I was legal to live and work in the country, funny eh, I was not able to get the papers they wanted here in Brazil but the guy with no question extended my Visa....

if they tell me, no you can`t work as a pilot....I don`t care because I will manage a way to do it...

[GBV]

In Brazil rules don`t count anything, there is always a way to do what you want.

You are wrong again mate, Brazil may not be a perfect place, but you can't do what you want. You can't work here as a pilot...:)


if they tell me, no you can`t work as a pilot....I don`t care because I will manage a way to do it...


Great attitute for a pilot, breaking rules...

Mate, you will never work for a part 135 or 121 operator, but if you want to try your luck flying some dodgy airplane in the middle of the jungle...otherwise you can always go back to Switzerland and make chocolates.:E

[Sail]

Alemaobaiano , indeed I have been through the brazilian naturalisation.Thats the reason why I would like to obtain some information about those two airlines.I would be glad if you could share with me any info about roster , salary and genral conditions ( TAM and GOL ).Specially about the rostering.

Regards

[alemaobaiano]

My mom has German citizenship but she can`t use it. When she became Swiss she had to deposit the passport.

Did you actually read the information on the link I posted? That would be in line with the rules, UNLESS your mother was born in Switzerland.

[TOFFAIR]

This passport discussion leads nowhere because both are right in principle, I was born in Brazil so got the Brazilian passport due to 'lex territorialis" and got the German passport due to being descendant of Germans "lex sanguinea", and still ellegible to work and living permit in Japan due to my wife, but if I choose to lets say emigrate to Swaziland or Switzerland (almost the same;)), I would have to open hand of all other passports in order to get the new one, only that a new law in Brazil says you can always return to Brazil and get the Brazilian passport again if you were born in Brazil.
But to come back to the original issue of this post, Gol and Tam, the rosters are not very friendly, you have by law the right of 8 days off in the month, so they schedule you so in order to get no more than those 8 days off, no matter if you fly 85 or 50 hours that month. What sucks is that Homebase is Sao Paulo, but you might start in CGH and end in GRU or otherwise exept for longhaul. Salaries are both now among the best paid for carriers in Brazil, but far behind what you can get abroad or flying biz (executivo). Management treat you in both companies as busdrivers or truckers, Dalits, servants... expect no big respect or consideration, especially in regard for private situations.:=
I think the chance to get an upgrade in less than 15 years in tam and maybe 12 years with gol is remote, but in aviation you never know... maybe one or both companies collapse before that too...
At least you fly mostly new aircraft and get the TR, dont need to prostitute yourself as P2F, with that you might get some experience and fly somewhere else!
Both companies restrict the copilot on operations in airports like SDU, CGH, NVT, VIX, GYN, etc, or due to weather, so you might have rosters you will only operate as PM...:}

[alemaobaiano]

TOFFAIR sums up the situation well, but on domestic you will often be away from home for up to five days, depending on the routes flown. Even the Sao Paulo/Rio shuttle sometimes has you staying in Rio overnight.

TAM at least has a better possibility of moving on to the international fleet, and the roster on international is much more friendly, typically 16 days per month with additional standby duties, but coming into the 320 fleet you will be waiting a long time to move up.

AZUL offers return to home base (Campinas) every night, but their salaries are around 10% lower, so take your pick.

The comment about management is pretty accurate, don't expect much in the way of consideration or respect. Management's attitude is that there are so many waiting for the chance to fly at the bigger carriers that there will always be another FO to take your place.

TTFN

[Junker-13]

Can someone post the actual payrates please?

Thank you

[AeroBoero]

TOFFAIR is spot on.

Maybe you should do a search on past threads, that would get you some answers.
But you wont get an exact number for pay rates as the salary varies too much from one month to another. :eek::}
At TAM, Avianca Brasil and WebJet they pay by Base Salary + Kilometres and at GOL and Azul is Basic + Flying hours. I have no clue how Trip pays.

Cheers
　

[varigflier]

Around 8-10k after taxes for widebodies at TAM.
5-6K for narrowbody I think.
Schedule sucks. Company sucks. Employees treated like crap. No star alliance benefits. The list goes on and on......

VF

[Massachello]

5 -6K Reais or dollars? if Reais thats not very good!! :uhoh:

[varigflier]

All figures are in Reais. Think twice about making the move......

[Autothrust05]

With the current financial crap that caught almost the entire world I would advise everyone, able to so, to go fly in Brazil. Nowadays, pilots at KLM are requested to work as FA, on the ground, etc etc. Solid companies as Luxair don't expect to hire anyone in 2010 with a slightly chance to hire a few in 2011.
A friend of mine paid for his rating (Fokker 50) in order to work for Denim Air. After flying around 300 hours he was fired along with his colleagues cause the club went bankrupt. In Brazil luckily, there is no such crap as paying for TQ. Money is indeed less comparing to what is possible to earn abroad but as they said, the grass is always greener on the other side...

fly safe!

[TOFFAIR]

That might be true ofr now, but I would only consider the move under the condition of being Brazilian, being committed to stay in Brazil at least for a couple of years, not looking back... The other thing is it takes a while to get the convertion done, until then, no one is going to hire you, and if they say so, dont believe it. By law its not permited to have P2F, on the other hand you never know what it takes to get hired... If you have the JAR-FCL ready, there are opportunities appearing to get hired, i.e. THY, LH City-Line, Germania, etc given what you will invest to get the job here, and still no guaranties... But if you have the ANAC license ready, I agree time is good to find a job now in Brazil, and despite the salaries you can afford a nice living...
Do not attempt to commute (abroad), there are virtually no ZED agreements for crews here and you dont get a roster compatible to that anyway.

[alemaobaiano]

and despite the salaries you can afford a nice living...

You won't have much of a life in São Paulo on R$5-6000, especially if you have to rent somewhere to live.

There are cities with a lower cost of living, but if you expect to fly for one of the bigger airlines you are going to have to live in São Paulo or, if you are lucky, Rio.

TTFN

[dcsagcs]

Stay away from TAM at moment, crazy rosters, terrible hotel layovers, no respect!:ugh:

[TOFFAIR]

Alemaobaiano:
Why care for some fancy apartment? You want be there very often anyway! Flying intl out of GRU you can live nicely out of the crowd being an hour away from the airport. Nonetheless I agree with you guys, what could be a dreamjob with JJ/G3, is rather a roster nightmare, and companies never heard about slavery abolition... I wonder why those with TR and hours dont move out to UAE, China, Korea, etc only few do, mainly ex RG. any idea?
:E

[alemaobaiano]

Toffair, who's talking about fancy apartments at that salary range :eek:

If you are flying international out of Guraulhos you are well above the problems facing the common FO and his/her pitiful salary, so grubbing around the city for somewhere that fits the budget isn't an issue. Deciding whether to buy a Merc or a Jag is probably the biggest concern :rolleyes:

TTFN

[varigflier]

Toffair,

The answer to your question is English and a few others that I won't go into details here.

VF

[TOFFAIR]

fair enough! So this might show us that the situation tends to worsen and not to improve. If you dont have any alternative you have to get used to whatever you can grab. Another thing i noticed among Brazilian Airline Pilots is that there is a huge complaining and rumours among the colleagues but most of them dont have the balls to do anything about it, not even when it comes to flight safety.

[Junker-13]

Posted by VF
Around 8-10k after taxes for widebodies at TAM.
5-6K for narrowbody I think.
Schedule sucks. Company sucks. Employees treated like crap. No star alliance benefits. The list goes on and on......

Varigflier

These rates are for captain or FO?
First year pay or top of scale?

Thank you in advance

Junker 13

[varigflier]

Toffair,

You are right on the money.

Junker 13,

These rates are for F/Os regardless of seniority. Everybody gets paid the same nomatter how long you have been with the company.

VF

[Full Deflection]

To continue Sail's first questions: As an expat married to a Brasiliera but without a BR Licence, BR passport (but Visa) and not speaking the lingo, what prospects does one have with 13,000 TT and 8,000 h on B 737?
Would corporate aviation have opportunities?

[alemaobaiano]

To continue Sail's first questions: As an expat married to a Brasiliera but without a BR Licence, BR passport (but Visa) and not speaking the lingo, what prospects does one have with 13,000 TT and 8,000 h on B 737?
Would corporate aviation have opportunities?

Prospects? Close to zero. You can't fly for an airline in your situation, and not speaking Portuguese, not being Brazilian, and not having local documentation will probably knock corporate on the head too.

TTFN

[TOFFAIR]

No chance! You could go through the process of nationalizing the papers and get some Portuguese lessons in the meantime (It will take several month to get all together!!!), and only when ready apply for DEC position...
If not, i think positions may become available only for heavy helicopters like S92, thus they ll being introduced for offshore and there are insuficient pilots in Brazil experienced on those.
I dont know were youre from, but if you take a part time in Europe e.g. and stay the other time here, you might get a better living and more time at home than working fulltime here (salaries are low and offdays few, no part-time flying in Brazil!).

[Autothrust05]

Hi guys,

Quick question about the lovely IRS in Brazil:
How much can I expect to give away to the government? or how do you check in which category (percentage) you belong to?
E.g.
Base salary = R$ X
Sectors flown = R$ Y
X + Y = Z then percentage based on the total amount?
or
X = related percentage to X amount
Y = related percentage to Y amount

Thanks for help!

[varigflier]

I believe it's around 27% for the majority of the people.

[AeroBoero]

I would say to just work with 30% for the IRS and you wont have any surprise.:}

[Autothrust05]

Thanks for the info!

The living costs in Brazil have reached the European levels, unfortunately the salaries didn't. :(

bons vôos!

[varigflier]

You can say that again.......