What has AOPA done for you?

[A and C]

For those who question the worth of AOPA membership the events of the last week have shown the value of a strong and vocal representative voice for private flying.

The job that AOPA has done in getting volcanic ash no fly zone fiasco sorted out has been nothing short of superb, within 24 hours NATS and the CAA had to issue directives to ensure that the ATC units who did not understand the situation stopped acting like the air police.

To continue the good work and to fend off future problems for GA AOPA needs more members so please don't be a cheapskate, membership is cheap considering the advantages that a strong and united voice that AOPA has at government level.

(And yes I do know that the LAA has been making waves at the CAA on the Volcanic ash issue)

[dont overfil]

I agree with A and C, but what else?
Well, I've not needed their legal assistance yet, but it's nice to know there is support should I need it.
My crewcard got me between 10 and 20% off my hotel bills in every resort I stayed at in the Bahamas and 20% off my Hertz rental car in the USA using their CDP number. £450 saving between three of us!
Discount on fuel in Jersey.
Check in staff at airports try a bit harder to give you emergency exit seats when you use the card for ID.
Year after year it pays for its self several times over.
I would probably still have one even if I didn't fly!
DO.

[chris-h]

Iv just finished the imcr and i believe they are fighting the corner to save the rating. I think its stupid to even consider getting rid so on that basis i joined AOPA.
To actually pull out the membership card though, im not sure.

I think if the membership was a realistic price they'd get a lot more members

[flybymike]

The cost is peanuts compared to everything else we seem to happily spend on flying.

[smo-kin-hole]

A lot of you might not remember the GA groundings of that day in 9/11. I remember it all very well and I can tell you that AOPA was the ONLY aviation organization I could see defending the GA world. At first only filed IFR enroute was allowed, then only duals. A student could solo under endorsement, pass their ride, and then be grounded as a newly minted private. It was absurd and it went on for 6 months. The last people to leave the ground were the ag planes due to the airborne anthrax application scare. Same with the banner towers. I believe that nearly 1/3 of all active flight schools in the US failed in the years after 9/11, including two where I was working.

AOPA also had a great deal to do with the driver's license as a photo ID program. The magazine alone is worth it! Great outfit:ok:

[fuzzy6988]

The AOPA (UK) has a new website coming soon which will show the flying community the breadth and depth of what it has done.

[IO540]

A lot of you might not remember the GA groundings of that day in 9/11. I remember it all very well and I can tell you that AOPA was the ONLY aviation organization I could see defending the GA world. At first only filed IFR enroute was allowed, then only duals. A student could solo under endorsement, pass their ride, and then be grounded as a newly minted private. It was absurd and it went on for 6 months. The last people to leave the ground were the ag planes due to the airborne anthrax application scare. Same with the banner towers. I believe that nearly 1/3 of all active flight schools in the US failed in the years after 9/11, including two where I was working.

AOPA also had a great deal to do with the driver's license as a photo ID program. The magazine alone is worth it! Great outfit

I think you are talking about the American AOPA. They are indeed very powerful (in America). I get their magazine too.

[robin]

The AOPA (UK) has a new website coming soon which will show the flying community the breadth and depth of what it has done.

About bl**dy time too. Their website is appalling and, what's more its bulletin board is moribund. There have been almost no posts for months.

Even the breakaway forum on the FL*er forum has very few.

I've given up my membership as I found that AOPA was irrelevant to my sort of flying and the LAA has been just as active, if not more so,

Take, for example, the responses to recent consultations. The quality of the AOPA responses is markedly inferior to those of the BGA and LAA. And don't tell me about the work AOPA does behind the scenes.

The General Aviation magazine is OK and has some interesting articles, but to me it is a 'What Martin Robinson is doing on his holidays" brochure in large part.

Personally I think it would be best if AOPA joined with the other UK groups in the GA Alliance. We are too small to fragment into interest groups.

[soay]

I'm a member of both AOPA (US) and AOPA (UK) and they are like chalk and cheese. In the US, they are communicative and know how to use the Internet to keep their membership informed about how necessary they are. In the UK, they are run by a paternalistic core, from a bygone era, supported by volunteers with an uncanny knack for killing of any enthusiasm for becoming a member and using their forums. I hope the new website improves their image, but with no change of ethos, they have every opportunity to blow it.

[IO540]

I'm a member of both AOPA (US) and AOPA (UK) and they are like chalk and cheese. In the US, they are communicative and know how to use the Internet to keep their membership informed about how necessary they are. In the UK, they are run by a paternalistic core, from a bygone era, supported by volunteers with an uncanny knack for killing of any enthusiasm for becoming a member and using their forums. I hope the new website improves their image, but with no change of ethos, they have every opportunity to blow it. I have to agree with the above.

The magazine is too patronising - the last thing anybody wants to read after graduating from the generally pretty patronising UK PPL training machine.

The leadership is actually visible at most presentation/conferences I have been to, but usually in a reclined orientation and with eyes shut, presumably following a very good lunch.

I suppose it is just apathy... they got themselves into a vicious circle where UK pilots somehow got to think they are not represented, and it continues like that. It's a shame; there are about 20k UK pilots with valid medicals so they could have 20k members.

The AOPA forum on Flyer didn't get off the ground partly due to its aggressive moderation profile. It appears this has now been addressed, but the damage has been done.

US AOPA has a big budget which no European organisation could emulate but they do have skillful people there. Phil Boyer was, I believe, a broadcasting executive in his previous life and he knew how to go about it. I have met him (shortly before he retired) and in a presentation on GPS approaches etc where he totally casually and totally effectively crushed the assembled European officials, who could not wait to leave the room afterwards, before anybody could ask them to comment. It was a real spectacle :ok: AOPA UK was there too, but gently snoozing, although to be fair it was quite warm.

[Whopity]

Just ask how many Flying Instructors are members, and they get a discount! Less than 25% I'd guess. Many still remember it as the Ron Campbell Luncheon Society and International AOPA as something akin to Arthur Scargill's International Miners Union, a name with no substance!

[flybymike]

The General Aviation magazine is OK and has some interesting articles, but to me it is a 'What Martin Robinson is doing on his holidays" brochure in large part.


If Martin did not tell people what he was doing with their money he would be criticised for not doing anything. If he does tell them , then he is accused of using it to go on holiday.

A case of "damned if you do and damned if you don't."

[sternone]

I'm an AOPA USA member and I pay extra for their legal services. Since I'm only FAA rated and my planes are N-registrated AOPA USA is of very high value for me. I have used their escrow service, their legal department, their help desk with all kinds of questions and read their magazine.

This week I flew into Jersey, they even gave me an extra discount on the already cheap fuel because I was an AOPA member!

I don't care for AOPA outside the USA. I think the chapters outside the USA are weak and a waste of money.

[englishal]

I Hope AOPA UK take a leaf out of the AOPA US website...which is excellent, has some great tools on it, has great articles and has lots of online training resources....

I hope this takes precedence over the list of MBE/KBE/OBE holders as it makes it look like an "only boys" club....

Yes AOPA US members get the same discounts as AOPA UK members, and the magazine they send me from the US is excellent, better than most of the trashy UK GA publications which tend to focus on boring stuff about "how to get into the right seat of an Airbus".....yawn......I'd rather know about wing loading and why spins happen, how to get out of them, and to hear experiences of very experienced pilots and what they do....

[QNH 1013]

I've been a member of AOPA (UK) for about ten years and the help I've received when I really needed it ensures I will remain a member for as long as I fly.

Yes, they could do a lot more, if more GA pilots were members, but in my experience they have never been found wanting when helping the "David" of an individual pilot against the "Goliath" of the CAA and Dept of Transport.

Thanks to AOPA (UK) I fly for a living today. Apart from anything else, I think the AOPA membership fee is the best value insurance you can buy anywhere.
If you're not a member, I just hope you never find yourself in a situation where you wished you were, because they don't offer their services retrospectively.

[Fuji Abound]

There are some very good people in AOPA UK who do a sterling job and there are some truly dreadful individuals. Unfortunately Martin has being doing the job for far far too long. He is like the old boy propping up the bar, way past his sell by date, and enough part of the furniture that while he still warrants a friendly nod no one is interested in what he has to say because they have heard it all before.

He should go and give some one else a chance because until he does AOPA will gradually fade away.

(PS I have no doubt Martin has given many good years and believes in what he does but simply put no one should do the same job for that long - he simply doesnt know when enough is enough).

[Mike Cross]

Personally I think it would be best if AOPA joined with the other UK groups in the GA Alliance. We are too small to fragment into interest groups.

An explanation can be found on the protptype new website here. (http://www.joinaopa.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73&Itemid=117) (near the bottom of the page)

I Hope AOPA UK take a leaf out of the AOPA US website...which is excellent, has some great tools on it, has great articles and has lots of online training resources....
Great isn't it, All we need is the income from 400,000 members and we too can have a big team running the website. Unfortunately we are nearer 1% of their size.

[robin]

Mike

Thanks for the heads-up on the new website.

I know only too well why AOPA UK does not join with other organisations. I just don't agree with their stance.

With 4000 odd members compared with over 8000 LAA members and with a lower quality response (look at the Ofcome responses) I don't see that AOPA has a huge amount to offer for the moeny

I paid great attention to the responses to a number of consulations. The original AOPA UK response to the Ofcom proposal, for example, was appalling and probably posted by an AOPA member.

Unlike all other GA organisations the official AOPA response came after the expiry date.

I have begun to realise that AOPA is becoming part of the problem. At the GA conference a while back the DoT wanted to make AOPA the point of contact for GA. Since then it has become clear that it is not the right vehicle and the LAA is taking on much of that role.

If AOPA can't see that, it is going to become isolated unless it joins in with the others. I, for one, will not pay for LAA and AOPA membership and as I have to pay for LAA. AOPA is an optional and very expensive 'nice to have'

[Fuji Abound]

I think you will find Martin is very reluctant to work with any of these other organisations which was one of the reasons for my earlier post.

[A and C]

A number of people above are dismissive of AOPA (UK), the grounds seem to be along the lines that the website is poor and that it is an "old boys drinking club" while giving prase to AOPA (USA).

The funding of AOPA (UK) is the big issue, in the USA a large number of private pilots give support by being members and so AOPA (USA) can fund a full time office that is capable of good comuinications.

The attitude in the UK seems to be to slag AOPA (UK) off and not even give any credit for what it has done (need I say volcanic ash!) , use this as a reason for not joining and wonder why the website is lackluster when they have to be very carefull about how they spend the money that they do have.

The short answer is that the average UK pilot is too much of a mean cheapskate to become a member and have a say in the way AOPA (UK) conducts its business, by joining you will improve the ability of AOPA (UK) to function and give the weight of numbers to them when they meet the regulators.

As member of both the LAA and AOPA I see them as complimenary to each other but the LAA has to spend most of it's time on issues that are primarily of interest to permit aircraft owners.

The LAA do fine work in this area but I do wonder if the membership would be as high as double that of AOPA (UK) if LAA membership was not mandatory for permit aircraft ownwers.

[ak7274]

I have no agenda at all with AOPA,but if one is to espouse it's virtues and in the same breath insult the very people you are trying to encompass is beyond me.

Looking at the posts here,it does look as though there are legitimate concerns about AOPA (UK)

Why won't AOPA join with other organisations? Is it Masonic, self interest or just plain "we are better than you"?

A question I need to ask is..............Do any of these so called GA associations actually talk to each other?..............if not............why not?

[Rod1]

“As member of both the LAA and AOPA I see them as complimenary to each other but the LAA has to spend most of it's time on issues that are primarily of interest to permit aircraft owners.

The LAA do fine work in this area but I do wonder if the membership would be as high as double that of AOPA (UK) if LAA membership was not mandatory for permit aircraft ownwers.”

I am sure the membership would not be as big but that is not a reason for criticism, the 8300 membership is one reason the LAA punches so much weight with HMG. What the UK needs is one organisation, with strong affiliation in Europe. The Alliance offers this. AOPA (UK) will not find it easy being THE representative body when it is a fraction of the size of the Alliance. That said, I would encourage every pilot to join at least one organisation to help fund the good fight.

“Do any of these so called GA associations actually talk to each other?”

The members of the alliance work very closely together, but there is little coordination with AOPA (UK) as it is the odd man out, at least when I was involved (up to two years ago).

INDEX (http://www.gaalliance.org.uk)

The alliance comprises of;

BBAC - British Balloon and Airship Club
BGA - British Gliding Association
BHPA - British Hang Gliding and Para Gliding Association
BMAA British Microlight Aircraft Association
BPA - British Parachute Association
HCGB - Helicopter Club of Great Britain
LAA - LIght Aircraft Association
PPL/IR Europe - European Association of Instrument Rated Private Pilots
Royal Aero Club of the United Kingdom

That is over 20,000 members capable of speking with one voice!

Rod1

[A and C]

I think insult is a bit strong............................ I see a lot of people in the GA world who spend a lot of time slagging off the GA reprisentatives be they LAA, BGA etc or AOPA.

By and large these people won't become members because they are too mean to part with even a small amount of money and simlpy leave it to the rest of us to pay for the reprisentation that GA requires to continue to function.

Are you a member of one of the bodys that works to protect GA ?

[fuzzy6988]

but there is little coordination with AOPA (UK) as it is the odd man out,


Hmm... I wonder why?

[soay]

While AOPA UK understand that they need to increase their membership to be effective, what they don't get is that they can only do that by attracting new members, not repelling them. As a member, it is with some regret that I feel that has to be said.

Perhaps someone from AOPA UK can explain why they can't ask for help from AOPA US, to provide the marketing skills they lack.

[peter272]

By and large these people won't become members because they are too mean to part with even a small amount of money and simlpy leave it to the rest of us to pay for the reprisentation that GA requires to continue to function.

Are you a member of one of the bodys that works to protect GA ?

I have some sympathy with your view - a lot of people are watching the pennies and are looking to get benefits without contributing

However, you won't win friends and influence people by insulting them.

What I have always found difficult to accept is the way that supporters of AOPA (UK) keep telling us that we should join them but without any real reasons for doing so.

I've heard Martin Robinson make the statement we should join just as yachtsmen and sailors contribute to the RNLI. Well, if AOPA were to show as direct an impact as the RNLI, then perhaps. Sadly, I have also heard a member of the LAA's EC make the same suggestion.

Pilots in the UK, well power pilots, are almost by definition not joiners. You can't get many of them to join a flying club and pay a membrship fee. All they want is somewhere to keep an aircraft, somewhere to buy fuel and then they go off boring holes in the sky, land and b*gg*r off.

Any organisation that wants people to pay to become a member has got to work really hard to show relevance.

The LAA does pretty much all that AOPA does (or will soon), has a very competent engineering function and consultation/regulatory team and have got its tanks on AOPAs lawn.

AOPA is seen by my colleagues as being aligned with the business of aviation - schools, airfields and instructors, but little else.

If the recession is going to be as bad as forecast, people are not going to keep memberships of organisations that don't show instant and direct benefits.

If AOPA UK wants to survive it has to show relevance and this it has singularly failed to do,

PS - I do indeed pay membership of a body working hard to promote affordable aviation.

[IO540]

This topic surfaces on the forums periodically...

It is very true that UK pilots are stingy. This manifests itself in many areas, including often crap performance and customer service in the maintenance business.

However, as mentioned above, membership has to be earned, or enforced, and the latter option is not feasible in the UK.

UK AOPA has had a dreadful battering of its image in recent years, with one aggressive forum poster in particular (claiming to be involved in it) having done more damage than anybody else in the 10 years I've been flying. But before that they suffered from appearing to be representing flying schools more than pilots. They also had a highly "ambiguous" stance on the N-reg issue (understandable, given the # of corporate - school - members) which alienated most pilots who have more than 2p to rub together and go places; in fact they alienated the one pilot group which would have paid for tangible returns. Much of this has changed recently but the history is hard to undo.

AOPA needs fresh leadership, and it needs to get away from appearing to be the London lunching club for MBEs, CBEs, Fellows of every Royal Society going, etc.

It doesn't need the deep national-political penetration which US AOPA has, because GA has very little political representation over here anyway (very few MPs fly). And UK GA is not big enough to ever fund a serious Westminster lobbying effort; I mean, even Fergie is asking for £500k these days ;)

Financial collaboration between the various European AOPAs might also help. Currently, they seem to work together at the "lunch in a nice sunny place" level.

None of this is easy, with new PPL issues being about 1/3 down on 10 years ago.

[flybymike]

Maybe for fifty quid Fergie could get rid of EASA for us and then we wouldn't need AOPA....

[fuzzy6988]

And UK GA is not big enough to ever fund a serious Westminster lobbying effort
...
very few MPs fly

While pilot numbers are definitely smaller, our population is also smaller compared to the US. I think it may be worth looking at figures in percentage terms as well.

For e.g.:
- The percentage of MPs who fly vs. MPs who don't.
- The percentage of pilots vs. the UK population
... and so on ...

And then compare these percentages with America.

[IO540]

Yes that might be of interest but I think you will find at least an order of magnitude difference in penetration of GA, in both the general population and in the legislative apparatus.

So UK AOPA needs to be pretty focussed on the principal issues.

[Mike Cross]

For the benefit of those who failed to look at the explanation in my previous post re the General Aviation Alliance:-

AOPA UK Representation

AOPA UK is one of a number of bodies that represent aviation in the UK. Until recently they only had to deal with the CAA, the UK's National Aviation Authority (NAA). Representative bodies in other countries in turn dealt only with their own NAA's. The formation of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and the move to common standards and regulation across Europe has changed that situation dramatically. It is now essential to be represented at the European level. For AOPA UK that was relatively simple, as part of IAOPA we already had an international focus and the interests of AOPA UK and all of the other European AOPA's are represented through IAOPA Europe. Martin Robinson, Chief Executive of AOPA UK, is also Regional Vice President, Europe, for IAOPA so we have a very strong lobbying position.

Other UK Representative Organisations did not have an international dimension. They are therefore members of the Royal Aero Club (RAeC), which is represented at the European level by Europe Air Sports (EAS). The major associations within RAeC also form part of the General Aviation Alliance (GAA), mainly focussed on UK issues. The fact that AOPA UK is not part of RAeC, GAA or EAS does not indicate any difference of opinion, AOPA has its own representation in Europe and does not need to be part of RAeC GAA or EAS to be heard. It could even be seen as unfair to others if AOPA was represented through two separate channels. In summary AOPA UK's representation is a three-step process AOPA UK > IAOPA Europe > EASA while for other UK representative bodies it is a four-step process Representative Body > RAeC > EAS > EASA.

I'm a member of both LAA and AOPA UK, I'm on the Executive Committee of AOPA UK and for a time served on the National Committee of the LAA (handed on to someone else due to travel distance).

It's regrettable that people sometimes adopt tribal attitudes and/or slag off people working for them rather than assisting but then you'll always find 100 people willing to tell you how something ought to be done for every one person who'll actually help you do it.:*

[IO540]

you'll always find 100 people willing to tell you how something ought to be done for every one person who'll actually help you do itYet, surely, that is just as true in the USA.

Getting volunteers is hard, but which would you rather have Mike: a lot of volunteers, or a lot of membership contributions with which you can employ full-time people?

The problem with volunteers is that they tend to do all kinds of "freelance" stuff which is sometimes not in the interests of the organisation. Trying to get them organised is like herding cats. Especially in GA which has its fair share of "character types". Look at town and country planning and the useless volunteers who usually serve on planning committees despite being unable to even read a drawing. Getting any kind of calibre among volunteers is very very hard. Far better to look professional and attract money and then you can buy the expertise actually required.

One has to get away from the volunteer system, polish up the corporate image, attract financial contributions, and then things can move on.

[Mike Cross]

I entirely agree and can assure you that it is being worked on. However with a fraction of the resources available to our cousins it ain't easy. We don't have the capability to throw money at the problem.

[englishal]

Still, websites are cheap. I have one, it has had well over a million hits, and it costs me about $20 per month for huge bandwidth. I do it for free, though AOPA could easily employ a full time web designer to work on it for not that much. Some college kid for example, pay him £20k per year and instantly you'd attract new members and hence revenues.

Although AOPA UK is significantly smaller than AOPA US their fees are significantly higher too. Just thought I'd point that out. 2 years for AOPA UK costs £182 + £15 joining fee (waived for online applications...what a stupid notion, a joining fee)....best part of £200. AOPA US is about $50 per year with no stupid *joining* fee...

I also don't see why AOPA UK cannot ask AOPA US for help, especially in the website department. I am sure AOPA US would provide templates and technical notes if asked? Has anyone asked them? Maybe they would provide the ASF online training courses for AOPA UK members? They are equally valid here as in US air. You can already subscribe to their channel on YouTube and even sticking their videos on the AOPA UK website would improve it no end...and would take 10 minutes to do.

Where as AOPA US is run as an "air safety foundation" AOPA UK *appears* to be run as AOPA Ltd. to me. You can shout and scream at me that I am wrong and tell me "i should contribute" but until my thoughts change then why would I?the more AOPA executives shout, scream and rant, the less the likes of me want to join.

I am a member of UA AOPA (part of IAOPA as AOPA UK like to refer to) and I am also a member of PPLIR which is a great resource.

[Fuji Abound]

What incentives does AOPA provide clubs to encourage club members to join AOPA? Many clubs these days charge an annual fee. Has AOPA considered offering membership to club members in the same way that if you buy certain makes of cars you are a member of the RAC and can renew your membership each year on beneficial terms? Incentivise the clubs by paying a commission on each membership fee.
When was the last time AOPA reviewed its membership charges? Is the correct model higher membership fees or would AOPA be better of with more members and lower fees? If, as others have commented, pilots are a mean bunch, perhaps a lower fee would produce more members and more income overall.
Why does AOPA persist in operating costly offices in the heart of London? When was this last reviewed? Does the membership really want a significant part of their membership fees paying rates and overheads and could this money be better deployed? How much capital is tied up in the London offices?
Why doesn’t AOPA have at least one flagship event a year? It doesn’t need to be anything “big” to start with, but what a wonderful way of encouraging people to join.
The web site is truly dreadful. AOPA has been saying they are going to overhaul the web site for years but don’t. I understand they pay for the site to be professionally maintained but this is certainly not reflected in the quality of the end product.
AOPA has become increasingly marginalised because they have the reputation of being unwilling to work with anyone else. Why doesn’t the executive committee address this often made criticism? The longer AOPA tries to go it alone the more irrelevant they will become and the more marginalised.
As I said before I can’t help feeling all these issues derive from the top down. Fresh blood is desperately needed. Martin should stand down if for no other reason than to allow the organisation to take a new course.

[ak7274]

A & C

I am a member of the LAA and have been for quite some time, even though I was away from aviation for a number of years.

As I said, I have no agenda,but as you can see from this forum, there appears to be quite a bit of dissent. If I see no benefit (or potential benefit) why should I give my hard earned away? I have looked at the website and must say I aren't impressed. I am quite willing to be persuaded otherwise as I do believe in the cause of encouraging and protecting GA and a few quid won't break the bank.

[IO540]

Websites are easy to fix - even I have one, knocked up with Dreamweaver - and anybody can host a PHP-BB forum, but the real Q one should be asking is why the USA manages with one "AOPA" while the UK's much smaller GA community has to have all the different groupings?

One less than obvious possibility is that the UK GA scene is under a lot of pressure (a constant regulatory and airfield availability etc threat) and always has been. This kind of pressure tends to set people off biting bits off each other. You saw this in the old communist countries (where I come from) where 90% of people were ready to stab you in the back, for the smallest advantage (and the other 10%, carefully chosen, you could and had to trust), and here I am talking about the Czechs who have a long history of non-aggression.

In the UK, for example, I see the VFR-only group pretty ready to sacrifice the IFR group, even for the smallest advantage. I also see the homebuilt group pretty ready to sink the others, again for the smallest advantage. I also see the farm strip group ready to sacrifice all paved runway GA, again for the smallest advantage to themselves. No wonder their leaders don't want to join forces.

This stuff needs to be dealt with first. It will take some imaginative approaches...

Currently, UK GA representation is dominated by "big characters" (not specifically talking about AOPA, though jolly good lunches are clearly an important event, and the head of the US AOPA clearly does like his lunches too). You always bump into them everywhere you go. And they always know what is best for you, young man. They date back to the good olde days when Queen's subjects showed proper deference to the chiefs. They edit magazines which show you how to put your taildragger's tail wheel into a bucket, to stop mice climbing up and eating the upholstery (that was a real classic).