Anybody who has left this career and done something different? [Archive]

Buter

22nd May 2010, 08:49

I will be leaving within the year.

I will rely on a combination of my own company and my old career (commercial diving/salvage) to , hopefully, bring in enough money to keep the bankers away from the house, beer in the fridge and the kids out of the sweat shop. With a reasonable amount of business coming my way and 4-5 salvage jobs a year, I should be able to live like a rock star. However, nothing in life is guaranteed, and leaving what is, for all intents and purposes, a secure income is always a scary experience.

My personal reason for leaving is simple: I do not enjoy the job, I find it extremely boring. Add to this the hassle of commuting to work (my own choice, I recognize), a recent pay cut, spiteful cabin crew, constant industrial unrest and a pension defecit the size of J-Lo's ass hanging over the company I now actually dread going to work.

A side reason for leaving is the money. While most folks would say that I earn a decent living, I do not feel that they pay received is anywhere near enough to compensate any of us for the disruption this job causes to our lives (Jersey based Flybe pilots exempted, of course:)). This is where the learned will bleat on about supply and demand and market rates; they are 100% correct, but this does not change, in any way, shape or form, the second sentance of this paragraph.

7 years in I can definitely say that flying is not for me. I am saddened by anyone who tells me that they are training to be a professional pilot as I am sure that the image they have in their head does not match the reality of the job. Having said that, I do not give my opinion unless asked for it and, even then, I try to present a balanced view that leans towards the negative - the fact that I wish to leave says enough to the educated.

If you are still passionate about this job after x years, my hat is off to you and I hope that there will be more like yourselves recruited into this job (the lack of the word 'profession' and 'career' has been intended throughout this little rant).

If you are like me and sit there staring at screens, dials, guages or whatever, and would really rather be putting in the time elsewhere, you have my sympathy and I hope that you are at least exploring your alternatives.

I do not begrudge the job in any way, I just do not want to do it any longer.

Sorry for de rant, mon.

Cheers

Buter

ab33t

22nd May 2010, 16:41

Im trying to juggle three different jobs , a bit here and a bit there to survive while trying to keep my aviation career going ...... Im failing dismaly , a decision will have to be made soon and focus on that .

Uncle Wiggily

22nd May 2010, 17:08

Buter: No need to apologize for what you termed a "rant." It wasn't a rant, but honest observations. I appreciate it, really.

Best of luck in your new profession.

northern boy

23rd May 2010, 09:06

A word to all those hoping to enter this industry from other fields.

You need to be lucky to get on. The industry, with few exceptions, is ruled by an archaic "Buggins turn" mentality which mean that unlike any other industry, advancement depends not on experience or ability but solely on the day you happened to join.

After 15 years of never managing to be in the right place at the right time, I am now on reduced salary, and staring at redundancy if things don't improve. Now in my 50's with no chance of the LHS before retirement even if I survive the coming cull, I bitterly regret the waste of years and would do something else in an instant. Sadly, once the big five zero is passed you are right at the bottom of the list and even wearing an orange apron at B & Q is an impossible dream.

The industry is effectively closed to anyone over voting age who is not prepared to mortgage the rest of their lives for a six month unpaid contract. Anyone who has flown before is an expensive and unwanted waste of space to the airline accountants who see the FO seat as just a source of income.

The cheap oil has gone, taking with it the business plans of many airlines, no one in their right mind would contemplate a start up, the industry is attacked from all quarters, being rated worse than child abuse in in one memorable Guardian rant, and is in all likelihood in it's last years as a mass travel option, unless an alternative source of fuel can be found and approved.

So don't leave a good profession for this veil of misery. If you do, make sure you have the luck to be in the right place at the right time, every time or you will finish up as bitter and passed over as I so obviously am.:(

Leave for something else? I'd love to. Nothing to go to and after the budget there will be even less. My advice would be to emigrate.

FANS

23rd May 2010, 09:17

thanks for an honest post NB, but haven't you enjoyed your time flying compared to what else you could've been doing?

Money is just one part of the equation, as the shine soon comes off that new car.

northern boy

23rd May 2010, 09:30

Yes, I enjoy flying but I have come to detest the industry. I could have made a lot more and had more self respect if I had remained an engineer. Redundancy is not a happy prospect at my age. Neither is having "missed the boat" and remaining a nobody due to unlucky timing rather than any failing on my part. Especially when one's peers are all enjoying commands elsewhere.

Bitter? certainly. If I fell into a barrel of tits I'd come out sucking my thumb..

RHINO

23rd May 2010, 09:36

Find three barrels of tits......your luck might just change!

PMSL:ok:

Guttn

23rd May 2010, 10:12

Flying is fun is you are doing private flying. Professional flying is nowhere near what you think when you are learning to fly. Actually, the term professional, should not be attached to the term commercial flying. The industry, and that is exactly what it is, is filled to the rim with people trying to get the edge on the next guy. Backstabbing seems to be the norm, but still frowned upon by those who have flying jobs. T&Cs are continuing down the drain. Supply and demand, of course, but there are just too many pilots competing for about zero jobs. Scumbag airlines exploiting fresh out of flightschool pilots and offering them 6 month contracts which the new guys pay for, under the term "line training". All this does is worsen the jobmarket for the next guy and so on. The bar is higher and higher when it comes to getting hired as the, say, 500hr time on type is quite common. But, don`t get me wrong. I`m still flying for a living, as I am too stupid not to have spent time on a real education:ugh:. And yes, I do love my job and am extremely fortunate to have it. But I also see very clearly what has happened the last 10 years. :yuk: And at the moment I can not encourage anyone to begin this line of work. It`s still getting worse, but should be close to rock bottom, when people understand that there are no jobs out there anymore and hopefully fewer and fewer take this route. It`s the beancounters` market for sure. :mad::ouch:

EpsilonVaz

23rd May 2010, 11:22

Just to add contrast to the inevitable negativity here, I am a relatively new F/O (2 years) and I regularly fly with Captains over 60 who have been flying for many, many years. The vast majority of them (say 95%) are still very happy and could not imagine themselves having done anything else.

It really is all down to the individual, you get some that just moan moan moan about the company and complain about how awful things are, they are the ones who really don't like the industry. Of course, we all like to have a little moan about the company/politics/etc, but you can easily tell those who let things get in the way of enjoying their job.

PPRuNeUser0173

23rd May 2010, 16:36

I left the airline industry in 2006 and just do a small bit of instructing now and again which satisfies my need to fly. Previously I worked in Avionics Engineering before getting my ATPL.

Got fed up with the lack of control of my life, working shifts which gets harder as you get older and dealing with "security" staff - some of them being rather unpleasant. I only flew for the UK regionals and don't regret working in the industry - infact I enjoyed it in the main but recognised when it was time to stop.

Fortunately I have everything I want and manage to survive financially from my property rental business income and wifeys income combined. We don't owe any money, and for that I am truly thankful.

If asked "would I do it again" the answer is a firm No! Not under current conditions ie P2F etc. I was bonded of course but that was a better system.

Just my two pennies worth.

remoak

24th May 2010, 05:30

The problem with a career as a pilot is that it's all about luck and timing, and not much else. I know guys who went from nothing to Bandeirante in 200 hours, and Bandeirante to 767 in another 200. They all had 767 commands at 3000 hours. Now that was at a good hiring time - the late '80s. In the early '90s, there were people who had invested 100K in training and had absolutely no chance of a job... a lot of them bought type ratings and STILL couldn't find a job... many eventually chucked it in and did something else.

I had average luck, had a jet command pretty quickly but as I had absolutely no interest in long haul, my career was always going to be limited financially. Being a trainer and later Chief Pilot helped, and a few lucrative contracts were fun... but in the end, I got sick of getting up at 0400, never knowing exactly where I would end up each night or for how long I would be away, crap rosters, having my base moved every five minutes, very average hotels, and basically no life.

Some people love flying so much that they will willingly put up with that. I found that after 20 years of it, I had had enough and was ready for something else... so I started my own businesses, one aviation-based, one not, and do a bit of contract flying from time to time to keep my hand in.

Aviation certainly isn't the career it was when I started, and I doubt it will ever again be like it was in the golden days. The respect in which airline commanders are held has dwindled, pay and conditions have dwindled, and the buggeration factor has multiplied many times over. That, and the fact that sitting at FL360 all day with nothing to do but read the paper, isn't what I would call rewarding or fun.

No wonder the Asians don't want to do it, they don't care if all the white expats take the jobs, because they know they can make more money for less effort doing something else.

In the end, it depends which end of aviation you reside in. If you fly a type you like, do routes you enjoy, have the lifestyle you want, the money you need and the respect you deserve, then more power to your arm. If you don't (and most don't), there are worse things than doing something else... like waking up one day and realising that you don't know your wife and kids any more, that you can't remember what city this particular hotel is in, and that you are chronically tired all the time. That simply isn't fun (or worth it).

You pays your money and you makes your choice... and there is no shame if that choice is not an aircraft.

tomkins

24th May 2010, 12:04

Remoak
you mentioned 'the respect you deserve'.....surely respect is won by the man not the title?

fiftypercentn1

24th May 2010, 12:53

Why can t you accept that it s not about our business, but the whole world has changed?? flying is not what is used to be exactly like being a lawyer\judge\architect\engineer\doctor etc.. is not what it used to be. So when i hear people say "with the same effort i could have done something else and made a lot more money" ..in what world??? you go tell this to a 30 years old lawyer who is lucky enough of he gets payed at all, or an engineer who can t find a job anywhere, or a doctor who studied 15 years and makes 2k a month.

If someone fancies a change, more than welcome. But please remind yourself what world we live in..talk to young people in other businesses and you ll tell me.

Just a reality check.

remoak

24th May 2010, 12:55

surely respect is won by the man not the titleAbsolutely... the problem is that many fine, professional skippers that I know ended up being treated like imbeciles, simply because they asserted their obligation to make a judgement call. I can remember a tyrannical female station manager trying to browbeat me into taking an F27 with a bald nose tyre to Guernsey, where it was wet with a howling crosswind. That is just stupid. Anyway, she complained to the Fleet Manager, who had me in for tea and bikkies. I took a BALPA guy with me... to cut a long story short, the Flight Ops Director congratulated me on a good call, and reamed out the Station Manager. Good outcome.

My point is, that in today's environment, you can have your decisions questioned by people with no expert knowledge, and it can escalate to the most ridiculous level, and you can find yourself in some trouble - all because you exercised the judgement that you were trained to exercise, and did the job you are paid to do. Many good captains are undermined on a regular basis, something that wouldn't have happened 20 years ago.

In my book, that is disrespectful.

So when i hear people say "with the same effort i could have done something else and made a lot more money" ..in what world???

In this world. Get yourself an MBA and go for it...

I know quite a few doctors and lawyers. None of them are poor.

zerotohero

24th May 2010, 14:18

I think about a different career every time I wake up at 4am after only a few proper hours sleep due tossing and turning, the drive to the airport I want to kill myself, security I want to kill everyone else, crew room I want to throw the printer out the window, ATC O my god I want to nuke them (Spain!) but once I get settled into the SID and see the view and roll the seat back and enjoy the sunrise with a glass of Orange Juice I think this is spot on and I am been paid a good few hundred pounds today to do this, if not more on long days, then I really enjoy it, battling with shortcuts and all that for an early arrival, wondering round the aircraft on the spin I think this is great, look at the machine I just flew.

BUT, I still wonder back to thoughts of been back in my own city working for myself again which was sooooo easy and about the same money, doing lunch with a few girlies most days, shopping in an evening, and generally living life fully.

I think this is not a 30 year deal for me but for now ill just bank some cash and take some hours and free trips round europe for a bit.

Its a crap job but its better than all the rest :ok:

eagerbeaver1

24th May 2010, 16:53

Zerotohero

Are you for real? Glass of orange juice whilst settling into a SID?

Lunch with girlies?

And paid a damn fine wage too.....

nutter.

zerotohero

24th May 2010, 17:50

The ones that tend to end at FL240 yea! not these London TMA 3000' jobbies!

O and the lunch with girlys is my previous job if you read a little closer.

GULFPILOT76

24th May 2010, 21:47

Zerotohero, yessss, I fully understand your point. The stuff you mention is taken right out of my mouth. Although,.....when we were younger (I'm 55 now) the live we led was less demanding in that respect that one could cope with the lack of sleep and time differences. There were (probably) no wife, kids and a very daring mortgage to start with. I have flown for a total of 33 yrs of which 23 in jets up to captain 767. I realized that at a certain point you start to evaluate your professional career against your private and social life and then you come to a certain conclusion. Mine was, let's take a daring step and go for something else. Luckily financially I can wait it out for a bit. The 'something else' has not materialized yet in my mind but I am absolutely sure it will in the end. What I have experienced up to now is that I don't miss anything except sometimes the pure control of an airplane, my colleagues and the dynamics of our trade. Getting up at 3 or sitting there for over 10 hrs, long night flights, time differences and coming home feeling like a zombie saying "please, please, NOT now, tomorrow" I DON'T MISS.
What the future will bring? I will see, luckily I am in a rather luxurious position.
May be I will go back to smaller equipment, always enjoyed that, but.....then I was young and eager. Decisions, decisions. Or as the Indians always say "What to do" and then they nod there heads in that very Indian way.

IrishJason

26th May 2010, 16:06

I'd love too see some positive's here but yet again I cant. sorry now this is just someone who's at the start of my career( pre cpl's ). I'm sure people will be shouting at there pc telling me too look elsewhere. Quite disheartening

Caudillo

26th May 2010, 17:16

Jason, surely you're aware of what the positives are for you? After all you have ended up at the stage where you're on your way to a pilot career.

But given that you may or may not invest €87,500 - which you'll have to pay back out of net earnings (so if we're generous and call tax about 30ish%) then you'll have to find a job that'll somehow produce wages of €120,000 over whatever timescale you're going for - and that's before accounting for your living costs and the ever-compunding interest on your loan.

Then of course you've got to take a look at the jobs market - and given that the likes of me and others in airline employment (which is the canary of an already sick economy as well as a reliable destroyer of value) have sold you and the rest to come down the river so you can essentially temp for maybe a grand take home a month, you'd probably be wise to bear in mind the reflections of those who don't have your problems yet still don't see aviation as a viable career for them. It would be a good investment to understand why they feel the way they do.

Best of luck to you.

IrishJason

26th May 2010, 18:52

Thanks for the input Caudillo. Its been a tough decision alright and thank god I've had some very good input from both this site and from out of work pilots. Dont get me wrong I have talking too in work pilots too and they been honest have been very good with there input too. The general seems too be keep it as a hobby and stay clear of it as a job. I know what your saying about the money side alright especially if a TR is added too the price. Its just a shame really

BigNumber

26th May 2010, 19:53

There is one ubiquotous problem with 'flying' as a career.

It is nearly impossible to earn a living performing a function others are willing to pay to do.

Hence 'Pay to Fly' et al. I can't imagine the engineers as a creed engaging in such stupidity.

We even have scams like the 'Baby Branson' farce with 'Varsity'; folks are so desperate to get a 'white shirt' and gold bars on.

It is becoming hard to consider 'Flying' as a viable career. It's more a short term egotistic indulgence.

Sorry for any spelling; blame the blackberry / bus ride.

Desk-pilot

27th May 2010, 11:36

just curious mate how the golf caddying pays compared to the old flying job?

Really glad to hear things worked out for you outside aviation.

Brg,

Desk-pilot

redsnail

27th May 2010, 12:06

Fortunately I have a good job and enjoy it. For once I was in the right place at the right time.

One of our captains was with BA. He left it and headed to the US to do some thing different. Ended up with his own business but after a couple of years, came back to the UK and took up bizjet flying.

Whilst not quite leaving the industry, he did leave a well paid BA command position.

RetiredF4

27th May 2010, 13:44

My background is military Jet flying for 21 years, having flown 3.300 hrs in F4 Phantom II, over 1.000 of them as instructor. I left the military in 1994 with a valid ATPL +longrange qualification and was unable to get a flying job. It was the wrong time and i started another job to feed my family and pay my house. Today i´m glad about it, it saved me probably a lot of trouble.

We have a squadron reunion every second year, talk a lot about our former military flying, and also about the after life. There is not a single pilot, who is really happy with his civil flying job, regardless of company and position (most being captains anyway). Most are looking forward to the point, when they will retire. Divorce rate during military career was high, but those guys now flying comercial are topping it.

30 years ago it was a dream come true to become a pilot with an "airline", today its just a job in the "industry".

franzl

wiggy

27th May 2010, 16:00

There is not a single pilot, who is really happy with his civil flying job, regardless of company and position

Depends on your definition of "really happy". Certainly we all gather round at our reunions (usually in the bar downroute these days) and b***ch and whinge about "the management", but I guess even the current military guys do that. I'd certainly say I'm happy enough, but then again I'm flying a reasonably modern widebody, and work in a Company that has (a) a work bidding system and (b) a varied a Worldwide route network and (c) still running wife #1 :eek:...whatever floats your boast I guess.

Happy Wanderer

27th May 2010, 19:34

[QUOTE] that the pay would be under $100,000 for Captains and under $50,000 for the FO by the time all was said and done [/QUOTE

At current rates of exchange, I'll take that for starters!! :eek:

HW

Bruce Wayne

27th May 2010, 20:44

[quote] that the pay would be under $100,000 for Captains and under $50,000 for the FO by the time all was said and done [/QUOTE

At current rates of exchange, I'll take that for starters!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

If that's index linked, i'll fire up the quattro !

flash8

27th May 2010, 22:09

6 years in industry - late starter - started on the twotter, 12m Dash 8, 12m (almost) 732, and two years or so 733.

Got booted out last year. Miss a few things, the flying is not actually one of them. I don't also miss the backstabbing infighting sh*t stirring colleagues (well most of them :)) nor the soul destroying hours, nor the mediocre pay, nor the ever-distant command prospects.

Now back to being a nomadic wanderer through obscure countries. People I meet are incredulous I could give up what they perceive as a glamtastic lifestyle. Suckers.

The Grass is not always greener on the other side. I for one am not going back to flying.

BANANASBANANAS

29th May 2010, 01:16

Interesting thread.

I have been committing aviation in one form or another for 30 years now. The industry is most certainly not what it once was and, in all probability, never will be again.

I think it is very easy to get blinkered into only looking at the issues within one's own airline rather than looking at the situation from an industry perspective.

I still thoroughly enjoy 'the job' once the wheels are up but the 'buggeration factors' on the ground (can I say that?) combined with HR trying to get blood out of a stone at every opportunity mean that I feel that I am viewed as a necessary but unwelcome expense that is to be squeezed at every opportunity. That corporate attitude does not promote pride in one's job or one's company and could even be presented as a flight safety issue. However, I'm sure that the industry HR bods have already 'done the numbers' on that particular scenario and are quite happy with the status quo so, what to do?

My current gig will probably be my last airline job for a variety of personal, professional and health reasons. When the time comes, I will take early retirement (from aviation) and look back fondly at most of my flying career - but will I miss it? Not on your Nelly! Plans are already in hand for the next phase of my working life and, as it involves being self employed and working mostly from home, there is flexibility in the timing.

If you are 18-21 years of age, reading this and contemplating a career in commercial aviation, my advice would be quite simple:

Don't do it.

It's so easy to be suckered in by the so called glamorous life style etc, but before you know where you are, you are in your late 20's or early 30's, seriously in debt, bonded, can't afford to resign, still in the right seat, at the bottom of a long and distinguished seniority list, watching your T's & C's degrade in real terms year on year, have no social life, and are already too old to start at the bottom of most other careers - even if you could extricate yourself from aviation.

I am most certainly not bitter and twisted (I have been lucky and my career has been both varied and rewarding) but if you are young and contemplating a career in aviation, be warned; it's no longer what it was!

If you want money, go be a financier, lawyer, doctor, dentist etc. If you want to fly airplanes, go be a financier, lawyer, doctor, dentist etc and fly one in your spare time.

OPEN DES

29th May 2010, 01:45

What a load of negative stuff here.

I am 26 years old. Last year I made 130k dollars gross as a first officer on the A320. And this is just the airline income, have some other jobs as well. I am loving every minute of it. Although it is very boring........

It really is what you make of it.....

dcsagcs

29th May 2010, 05:16

:ugh: OPEN DES,
You are a very lucky guy, an exception to the rule!
Well, I am currently employed for a South America company, reasonable well paid but the worst roster in the planet that means no social and familiar life... Terrible hotel layovers, morale at ground level and besides that the company has a quite complicated safety records.
I am looking forward to moving away.

Buter

29th May 2010, 08:21

OD - Dude, it's a negative topic. Happy people, such as yourself, don't tend to leave to do something else.

Having said that, I haven't really seen a truly negative post in this little thread. Just people recounting stories of colleagues that have left or, indeed, telling their own tales of why they have left or are going to leave.

Although slightly dubious about your quoted earnings (not trying to provoke an argument, btw) most FO's at my company make that or more depending on the exchange rate.

As I said in my earlier post, my hat is off (not that I would actually wear the damn thing) to anyone doing the job who is enjoying it. People still need to get from A to B, planes still need to fly and someone needs to be there to actually fly them, or at least push the right buttons.

If you think the job is boring at 26, how do you think you'll view the job at 36? How will you feel when one of your other jobs starts earning you more than the airline flying? What will you do when you enjoy doing another job more than the flying? That's all this thread seems to be about, my friend.

'The job is what you make it' Never a truer word has been said and I would like to think that all of us do that. I certainly make the best of what I now consider a crap job. I usually fly with friends, I usually get to decide, within reason, where I fly and on what days I'll go to work (alright, who's jealous?). I also tend to only work between 8 and 10 days a month. I'm still leaving.

With the exception of the 'committing aviation' comment, the above post from Bannannas x 2 sums up what a lot of us feel. Best of luck with the new endeavors, mate.

Posting twice in one year, yikes! If it weren't for the hilarious cabin crew thread, I wouldn't even look at this site - I've got a reputation to protect.

Cheers

Buter

rubik101

29th May 2010, 19:06

I used to caddy at Wentworth as a 17 yr old in the school holidays. A 10 shilling note as a tip was a fortune to me, considering it would buy 100 ciggies. How much does 20 fags cost these days? I've no idea as I fortunately stopped about 25 years ago. I could make £2-£3 a day, 7 days a week, tax free and managed to buy a fairly decent car after just one summer working there. So I believe Jaydubya when he says he is happy as a caddy there today.
I flew in the RAF from age 20 to 29 and in civil aviation until I left last year, age 58. After 38 years flying I had had enough. As mentioned, the 0400 wake up calls, getting back to base after dark for 4 months every winter were just becoming too much. I loved the job for the first 10 years or so when times were definitely different but lately it just got too much of a struggle to whip up the enthusiasm I once took for granted. The rewards seemed to be ever diminishing and the demands ever increasing. Life should take on more mellow dimension when you pass 55 or so and for me, aviation was causing my outlook to be getting ever darker by the day.
If I had the option again, bearing in mind the newly qualified ATPLs route to the right hand seat of an airline in the 'stepping-stone' airlines, I would not join the industry today. The investemnt/reward ratio is just too unbalanced nowadays.
I would buy a yacht and do what I did for 10 years when I worked part-time, chartering in the Med in the summer and travelling in Asia in the winters. Now I have the chance to resume that way of life very soon and I wish I had done it 30 years ago!
Someone told me the story of the young boy on the jetty with his fishing rod looking up at the big jet in the sky and telling his friend that he wished he was up there. The captain looked down and said to his co-pilot, I wish I was down there fishing. There is a lot of truth in that little scenario.

DHC6to8

31st May 2010, 09:56

Good question, I recently took a part time gig on the A340 and I have the young girls in the back hooking customers and going to my new apartment in Montreal to turn tricks... I manage them, deal with the cash and I have started to double my income.... and besides, the girls can scope out who they want or think needs a good bang'in from the business class.... works great!
You should try it sometimes! The girls are real happy with the extra cash! :ok: Easy money!
Ciao,
6to8

ROLLA

1st Jun 2010, 00:32

WTF zerotozero lunch with girlies , i think i really need to change my line of work, before we give each other makeovers (LOL):ugh:

low n' slow

2nd Jun 2010, 19:36

Interesting thread.

I've been in the industry for about 4-5 years and I'm thinking about chucking in the towel. I was raised into the industry by my dad, working for SAS at the time. He taught me everything about flying starting out with model airplanes moving into gliders when I was 15. I managed to secure a sponsorship ending up with a government sponsored CPL fATPL in 2006. At that time i felt really lucky. Throughout this period, my dad, my teachers and many here on PPrune gave me an insight into the job and more importantly, the underlying factors of flight safety.

Up to the point where my first employer took over the educational responsibility, I'd had first class training. My type-rating though on the Saab was more or less a joke. This was in 2006 and I was told by friends and colleagues that this was unusual. Training is normally a highly prioritized part of the airlines budget. From then on, my type-rating training became par for the course. I've never in 4 years since, seen a properly conducted company training course of any kind. It's all been a waste of time and I feel that my knowledge base is norrower today than it was when I started out. I have more experience from the line and this helps me out in my current company, but my standards have dropped and I'm unable to find motivation to pick them up.

Comparing my experience of the industry with the picture I had when beginning, I just can't understand where things went wrong. I have a very hard time accepting that management is dismantling every aspect of the job that I like. I feel that no part of what I do on the line is appreciated by anyone, least of all my colleagues who are all very complacent and bored to death by flying the same 35 minute route 6 times a day.

I've been moved from my base to an outstation once and been made redundant twice during the course of 4 years. This last time will result in unemployment in august and looking at my options, I have only one possible employer to apply to if I want to stay in Sweden. If I'm lucky and they accept my application, I'll receive a salary of half of what I'm making today and I'll also have to commute again.

I love flying, when I'm flying with colleagues who also enjoy it and when I feel that the company I'm working for is a decent outfit. I have 37 years to go until my flying life is at it's end and if this is what it's going to be like, well then I might just do something else.

I really enjoy teaching and would love to find a career in which I could use those skills and perhaps also use my experience from the line.
I've been thinking about becoming a regular school teacher.
There are so many things I would like to do, but I'm scared of taking the step towards actually doing them because I'm afraid I'll miss flying.

/LnS

johns7022

2nd Jun 2010, 20:00

When I started out considering a career, my first thought went to executive protection given my skill set...seemed like a noble career, putting my skills and life on the line for others...

Training with those in that profession, morphed my desire to fly for those same people, protecting them up in the air, rather then on the golf course or at lunch...

20 years of flying corporate taught me that very few held to the standards that I thought would be not only exemplified, but protected in an environment where money can buy the best..

I made a change a few years back...but I still hold to my standards...life is too short to compromise...somewhere there are people and organizations that want what we have to offer...your allowed to be a free agent and change teams...

JB007

2nd Jun 2010, 22:52

This is a fantastic thread. I can relate to so much that is written here.

Don't go flying for a living, it just ruins a good hobby!

I still enjoy going flying and I love the aircraft i'm presently flying but I personally have reached a cross-roads in the past 12 months where I find i'm just not prepared to sacrifice anymore for this career...

I was recently made redundant, things worked out well - I found work before I was 'pushed' and was still given my redundancy payment well above the minimum required but my life has been turned upside down - will be away a lot/constantly knackered etc etc...I'm finding i'm questioning if it's worth it...

I don't want to leave this industry, I still have the passion, but i'm seriously contemplating a step backwards to a turbo-prop again - it was the biggest job satisfaction I've ever had, it was sociable, my colleagues were superb and the environment positive...simple, friendly and fun! I'm prepared to sacrifice earning potential for getting that back...

Cheers
JB

zerotohero

3rd Jun 2010, 00:21

Question on Currency should you walk away for a bit

Should I take leave from flying for another field but want to keep my licence current in case I fancy another go later in life whats the min requirement for it?

IAA ATPL with 1500+ Jet as F/O

Guessing there will be an IR issue for Multi and Single crew, my IR is currently only valid for Multi Pilot under JAA, use my FAA for single engine anyway.

Answers on a postcard please.

portsharbourflyer

4th Jun 2010, 22:37

There is a saying, you don't realise what have got until you lose it.

I didn't enjoy my first multi crew job, 3 to 5 days down route at a time sometimes only flying five sectors in a week, a roster that changed every two days, early morning call outs; I was forced back into my previous career when I was laid off from the job. Contracting back in my old job, I now earn more than twice what I use to earn as a turboprop first officer; I now earn in a week more than I use to earn in a month as an FI.

But now I have to say I miss flying for a living and when I am stuck in that design office, every other moment is spent thinking how can I get back to flying for a living again.

Most will say keep your well paid job and fly for fun, well once you have flown something faster and heavier then just pottering around in a 152 doesn't quite hit the mark. The sort of thing I would enjoy flying for fun requires lottery winning levels of funding.

So while all of you may think you may be happier not flying, trust me you will miss it.

mmmbop

7th Jun 2010, 08:30

Reading between the lines of most posters I think we can safely say this topic falls under the theory of 'Perception vs Reality.'

The unhappy young have a perception of the job which after a few years in they realise wasn't accurate.

The unhappy older have a 'rose tinted glasses' view of what the job was when they were younger. Enthusiasm abounded, and the negatives were dismissed at the time and have now been forgotten. (Which is a natural psychological reaction for everyone.)

This is my 3rd career. I work for a Major, make good money and work for one of the very few airlines in the world that continues to be profitable. Yes, I was lucky, and in the right place at the right time. But I did take the risk and backed myself.

The actual job is great. Everybody hates being away at some important time, getting up at some ridiculous hour, or sitting next to someone they dislike. Same same with the company. It is a fact that must be acknowledged (and then discarded until Contract bargaining time) that all airlines want to pay us all less and work harder. But if you want to continue being happy in the career these are things you can't let eat away at you everyday.

Take the good with the bad. And that is advice in EVERY career, not just aviation. I'm sure there are many idealistic lawyers, doctors, surgeons, bankers, engineers etc who had one perception of their job but quickly learnt it was an inaccurate one.

A problem with our career is that there is a lot of 'free time' - in cruise, or sitting in a cafe at the airport, or in your hotel room where we can and do dwell on it. Not just individually but also collectively. When that happens for me I just call a friend in the corporate world who I think has it better than me and it quickly fixes my illusion. I remind myself that while this trip might suck, or I don't gel with the person I'm flying with, or I'm away when something important happens, that next trip WILL be entirely different because it will be to somewhere else, or with different weather conditions and with a different person occupying the other seat. How many of my friends in different careers can say the same?

Sure conditions have eroded from what they were. They had to. But do I just have a grass is greener perception? Am I jealous because of what I think the Senior Managers at the top are trying to, or are doing to me and what I think they earn for what they do?

I could be doing pretty much any other career I cared to choose (and did). But I wonder if after 'X' amount of time doing it I would be having exactly the same thought process I have about my career now. I am certain the answer is 'yes'.

Make the most of what you have chosen, and don't waste time thinking the grass is greener, or ''if only i had...." It's human nature to, and it messes with us tooooo much!

M

Merlyn

7th Jun 2010, 13:47

I flew from Texas to Kentucky in the summer once, and the grass WAS greener....

lederhosen

8th Jun 2010, 09:28

You can do something different and stay with a career in aviation. There are plenty of people who run businesses on the side. Sullenberger is a case in point. His co-pilot was building houses in his spare time.

If it is successful enough you can give up flying, but you do not have to. This is nothing new. Dynarod in the UK was started by a Pan Am flight engineer. I know of plenty of doctors, dentists and other professionals who combine in this way. So it is not limited to business people.

D O Guerrero

11th Jun 2010, 11:55

Great - there seem to be so many unhappy people in this business. Presumably they've all got their notice in and are about to go off and find true happiness elsewhere (good luck - take my word for it, almost everyone in western civilisation claims to be unhappy). This is great news! I love my job - its a privilege to do it and unless things are going wrong, 99% of the time there isn't much stress. So when all these guys leave for early retirement, there should be lots and lots of vacancies and mobility up the job ladder?
Somehow I don't think so.

OPEN DES

11th Jun 2010, 20:03

Well said.

My partner works in banking and she hates it, all her friends in banking hate it, yeah the money is not bad but it only gets good if you put in 15 hr days 5 days a week and spend all of Sunday reading the FT to try and get an edge on your clients to make them money. Is any job out there perfect and well paid. Footballer, F1 driver.........maybe they still get stick from the media.

Amen to that. Some people have unrealistic expectations from this career. It's a job! Not a paid hobby! As a hobby it's quite alright sometimes, if you look it at it as a job: not bad at all.

one day soon

11th Jun 2010, 22:21

mmmbop - I think that is the most accurate and realistic summary/post I've ever seen on ppune :D

Actually I think it should be placed as a 'sticky' on the wannabe threads!

Dan 98

13th Jun 2010, 07:18

A very interesting thread and the funny thing is i have been in a career outside aviation, dreamt of being a pilot so did the training, flew as an FO on a 737/3 for 2 years. By that time i was on the verge of leaving myself due to all the comments already mentioned, anti social hours, getting up at 04.00, worked most weekends, no control over time off, earning less as an FO than my previous career..........!

I was actually made redundant in 2009 so the choice was made easier for me, so i returned to my old career. Do you know what i found:
IT HAS CHANGED AS WELL! I think it is so easy to fall in to the trap of what ever industry you are in that yours is the only one that has changed. The WORLD has changed sadly and all companies now want more for less.

I am currently back in Medical sales, i am usually sat at my laptop by 06.30 - 7am doing emails or things that i have forgotten to do from the previous day that i remembered whilst trying to get to sleep.:ugh: I then leave the house and drive between 150-200 miles a day, my iPhone beeps with incoming emails all day, my salary is the same as i was being paid in 2003 before i trained to be a pilot.

I actually work on a daily basis with surgeons and i can assure you watching an operation that you have seen dozens of times before is no more stimulating than being in the cruise at FL370, most surgeons have to do private work as well in the evenings and on weekends to make up their money now, do a lot of moaning about the good old days, and as for the bureaucratic management in the NHS they have to put up with ....need i say more. :ugh:

Lunch is eaten whilst driving and returning phone calls that i missed whilst being in theatre.
I get home around 6-6.30 pm so have done around 12hours by then. . I then have around 1 to 1.5hrs of admin and more emails to do after walking through the door, usually done by around 7.30 - 8pm. See my kids for about 15mins in the morning and about 15-20mins in the evening Mon-Fri. Get the weekends off, so you cram as much in as you can with everybody else trying to do the same in the 36 hour window before sunday depression kicks in and it is time to check the emails on Sunday evening to give you a fighting chance on Monday! All in all i reckon i do between 60-65hours a week. I am contracted to do 37.5, if i actually did that i would be dismissed for non performance as it would be impossible to do the job.

I get way more stressed in this job than i ever did in flying and that includes the sim. There is not a single day when i don't think about flying and miss it, and that is knowing the annoying things of working most weekends, crap hours and no control etc....would still be there in aviation but at least when you get off the plane your day is done, no emails, phone calls to deal with, you can actually switch off from it or i could....being off on a Tues, Wed and Thursday means i could take my son to school, go out for lunch with my wife, do some excercise! I didn't realise what i had until i had lost it. I think you have to make the best of what you have and make it work for you and your family.

Aviation like every industry has changed and for the worse! I think the thing with flying is that you have to pay and sacrifice so much to do it in the first place so people's expectations are much higher over a job where you do not have to pay £60-70k to do it!! For me i have already spent it so too late...

I am in very fortunate position where i will shortly be returning to flying and whilst it wont be perfect (what is??) i know now it will give me and my family more time together than the one that i am in now and maybe I'll appreciate it a little more. I know now that when i am moaning at 11.30pm on a Sat night on my way back from Faro that i can think of returning to a world of emails, stress and 5 x 13hr days anytime i like...No thanks.

Cheers:ok: