First Flying lesson - Not what i expected

[mealies]

Hi Everyone

I have been a long time lurker in these forums but I now would like some advice from you guys on what to do next. Apologies in advance for the long post.

I had a trial flight as a birthday present. |I always wanted to go on and do a PPL at some stage, so this was ideal. The flight took place on Saturday, and i was flying in a Cessna 152. Conditions were pretty sunny with a 5kt wind and cloud base at 3000ft.

I was allowed to take control for the take off, which was amazing. The problem i had was that past 500ft it was quite choppy. The instructor explained it was ideal gliding conditions and we were getting bounced by the hot air rising.

I had difficulties flying in these conditions (as you would expect) so had to hand back to the instructor. However my main problem was that the constant bouncing around was making my head spin. In the end I had to ask to cut the lesson short and fly back early. I didn't want to take the risk that i would feel ill 30 mins into the flight. That would have been bad for everyone :O

Now I feel if i don't go back and try again i would not be doing it justice. However if these conditions are completely normal then i will have to get used to them quick or not bother. What do you guys suggest? Is it worth me trying again?

Thanks

Andrew

[stevelup]

It was particularly bumpy on Saturday.

It certainly isn't always like that. I've flown every Saturday since September last year and last weekend definitely had the most thermals to date.

I'd definitely recommend you have another go!

[Pegpilot]

Hello Mealie

I'm one of those weird gliding types that actively seek out the rough thermic air. When I started to learn, I too was inclined to a degree of nausea on lively days once I'd been in the air for more than 30 minutes or so. What I found was that ones' sensitivity to bouncing around declines over time, so that now I'm quite happy to bimble off for 4, 5 or 6 hours at a time on really quite sporting days with no ill effects at all, other than a craving for a cold beer in the last hour or so of a long day in the saddle. My advice would be to stick with it unless the symptoms you describe really don't taper off. Perhaps also you might try booking lessons initially at the start or end of the day when convection is at a minimum - that's when hot air balloons do their stuff, for precisely the same reason that balloons and turbulence don't get on.

I wish you luck in you flying education, and if you get one tenth of the fun out of your flying that I've had, you'll have a ball !

Cheers

Pegpilot

[BackPacker]

Bumpy rides are a given on sunny days, particularly at the low levels we typically operate at. What it comes down to is simple:

1. You'll get used to it.
2. You'll learn where the bumps are likely to be found, and what tactics you can employ to avoid them. (Fly above the first layer of cumulus clouds, fly over water to the greatest extent possible, ...)

[mealies]

Thank you so much for your replies. I came back from that lesson completely embarrassed at having to end it early :)

I will try again and will go at the beginning/end of day.

Thanks

Andrew

[Mark1234]

Totally normal, and you will get used to it - in the first instance it's a noisy, often smelly and abnormal environment that will quite possibly make you feel nauseous anyway... then start shaking it around...

I was the same when I started, I now fly aeros for fun - amazing what the human body acclimatises to, don't worry :ok:

[Pace]

hI

Another point to consider is that with anything new or unfamiliar there is a dollop/ of apprehension and excitement.

Your whole being will be on alert!

Think of your mind as a computer with a graphics card with on board memory and then a far larger memory card in the computer.

When you start anything new which you dont already have experience of the poor old Graphics card is dealing with everything as there is little info held in the main computer memory.

Result it gets overloaded quickly as do all your other senses.
So relax pick a better day and enjoy we have all been there in one form or another.

Pace

[Lister Noble]

I've been flying for 5 years now,not a lot compared to many on here,sometimes I still jump when a particularly severe bump hits the aircraft,I think it is a normal reaction.
A bit like being in a speedboat on a choppy day.
You will get used to it,and also realise that the wings are not about to fall off the aircraft.;)
Good luck
Lister

[vanHorck]

The good news is, you don't hear much of drivers being car-sick, it s only the passengers....

The same applies in the air

1. it's often not turbulent
2. you get used to it
3. as the driver you'll feel the effects much less than the SLF
4. larger planes such as 4 and 6 seaters are less susceptible to turbulence
5. some planes handle turbulence better than others


Go for it!

[bfisk]

As a former flight instructor I always carried a sickness bag with me, especially if having new students. I would say for the first (few) flight(s), it seemed more students had mild nausea than not. Because of this it was often nescessary to keep the first few flights short (30-45 minutes including taxiing time). Some were more prone than others but each and every one got over it eventually. My empirical experience would dare suggest an average of 2-3 flights; the most I saw was about 10-15 hours.

It's no wonder, really: nausea is very easily caused when you are subjected to unfamiliar acceleration (ie different movements than you are used to), and when that does not match your visual impression. We are used to walking, we are used to driving cars, and we know roughly what to expect with the relationship "how does it feel - how does it look". In a small airplane, even small jolts of turbulence feels a lot worse than it looks, and this is puzzling to the brain, because it is unfamiliar.

Furthermore, vibrations from the engine and the relative crampedness of a 152 (for many, at least!) could easily add to this. A general excitement (like looking forward to flying for the first time), could also add to the effect, because physiologically excitement is much like stress. If it was relatively hot and/or humid, that would also worsen the effect.

However, let me repeat what I wrote in the first paragraph: each and every one I ever flew with during 1500+ hours of flight instruction on light aircraft, got over it relatively quickly. I am absolutely convinced you will too. The human body has amazing defense mechanism (your body is telling you this is not normal), but it also has amazing adaptability (it will soon learn it is normal).


(And to tell the instructor that you felt sick and you wanted to cut the flight short, despite how much you had been looking forward to it, is for me a tell-tale sign about a good attitude flyingwise. It shows you have the ability to put reason before emotions even in a stressful situation, which is a treasured personal skill. Good luck with your training, you will soon come to enjoy it a lot!)

[mealies]

Thanks for the detailed responses. I Am glad it isn't just me who has had this then.

bfisk - i will take your advice and next lesson i go for will be shorter flight.

I am sure i will get over the feeling. Before the flight, the lifts at work made my stomach go. Got in on Monday, didn't even notice it :)

On a side note, i am a fairly big guy, 6ft and 14st. i flew in a 152 which i had fun trying to get into. Is it worth trying to have lessons in a 172 or another plane?

[charliegolf]

Another thing, that I don't think has been mentioned, is looking out. On your first trip, you're probably doing at least some 'instrument flying', ie trying to stay at the same height by chasing the dials. When more used to flying, you'll spend much more time using the real horizon; thus having that whole world view. My wife does not get car sick- but she can't go head inside to read a map or somesuch, without feeling queasy.

I suspect you'll be fine. Good luck.

CG

[PhillC]

On a side note, i am a fairly big guy, 6ft and 14st. i flew in a 152 which i had fun trying to get into. Is it worth trying to have lessons in a 172 or another plane?

A C172 is going to cost you a lot more over the total PPL training period than a C152 (Having said that I did my basic in a C182, but that was a family owned aircraft that I'd been flying in as a passenger since I was 9 or 10 years old).

I'm about 6ft as well (182cm) and almost 15st (94kg) and I'm doing a lot of my flying in a C152 now. While getting in and out requires some effort, there's plenty of space inside, unless your instructor is bigger than you are! I found that even in February, with two people wearing large coats inside the cockpit, there was still enough room.

I'd stick with the C152.

[MacBoero]

I haven't had any problem when flying, but then the north east of Brazil doesn't seem to be so turbulent. I do struggle sometimes when I go sailing in rough weather, and I am called upon to go below, out of sight of the horizon for more than a few minutes. I am also unable to read in a car when travelling as a passenger. All these things are related. When travelling in a car, I either sleep or admire the scenery. When sailing and I expect rough weather, I use these:
http://www.mistrys.co.uk/images/images/Stugeron_15_2603.JPG_2603.jpg

Detail here : Stugeron (cinnarizine) (http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100002475.html)

I would expect them to be able to help you.

[Fuji Abound]

I flew to France and back a couple of days ago.

I can honestly say if you had shut your eyes you wouldnt have know you were flying. More often than not that is the case.

You will find on any day there is usually a height at which you can fly where the air is much smoother. Remember that as it is seldom explored during PPL.

BBTW as others have said the motion of a little light aircraft the first time will be very different. We tend to become accustom to much larger commercial aircraft which inevitably ride the lumps and bumps better. Almost certainly you will get use to it. If you pass your PPL you may move into something a little larger and heavier which will also give a more solid ride.

Enjoy!

[mad_jock]

Try some herbal ginger tea before you go up next time.

And others have said you have the standard new student idea that you are the first to ever have a particular issue.

You obviously had a nice instructor if you had been up with me I would have told you to bugger off when you tried to hand it over to me. :D usually come out with a line about you have to pay extra if you want me to drive the thing.

And for those that think thats harsh in the 5 TF's I did while back home I got a thick ear by two women, one bloke nearly wee'd himself laughing after an extremely sexist comment about the striaghtness of his taxing. 3 signed up on the spot for the PPL, out of the other two, one has since come back for another TF and the last doesn't count cause I payed for the flight anyway (no I didn't get my leg over :p )

PS go for whatever is cheapest. Personally I think all C150/152's are stinky cramped heaps of poo and would take a tomahawk anyday of the week. But thats just my personal opinion :D if your a short arsed, thin shouldered none pie eating, shandy drinking student, linked with a similar size instructor they might be OK.

you may move into something a little larger and heavier which will also give a more solid ride.


That apply's to so many important things in a pilots life as I keep telling the FO's down route, althought the weekday pawnee driver at Aboyne has been taking this advice to extremes ;)

[holdmetight]

I remember I had the exact same airsickness problem when I started flying. As many others have already mentioned, it goes away when you start to relax and your body adjusts to the turbulence. Don't give up, it is easier to overcome than many expect. Here are some remedies I used to help myself in those early days:

1. Eat something very light before flying. NEVER go on an empty or full stomach. I used to eat bananas before each flight, worked a treat in terms of energy and keeping the stomach occupied.

2. Focus on a distant object when nauseous.

3. Don't fly in excess clothing, I found being hot makes it easier to get sick.

4. Eat something ginger-related. It can be anything - from ginger tea, ginger candy, or even raw ginger... studies have shown it helps ease airsickness. I have experienced this personally too.

5. Think of the bumps and turbulence as if you were driving on a bumpy road. You are never scared your car will fall apart, so why would the aircraft?

Hope this helps. As mentioned time and again before, it will pass sooner than you think. Good luck! :ok:

[mealies]

cheers for the advice about eating/eating ginger before flying.

Mad_jock: your post made me laugh, and yes i was a wimp for handing over to my instructor :O

Will stick to the c152 then, saving money is more important than extra room

Andrew

[mad_jock]

Nah your not a wimp.

The thing I tell students/FO's is that the thing I am looking for is for them to never ever to give up. Its my call when I take control not thiers. Just keeping working it and doing your best until the instructors says they are taking it. Don't worry we are very paticular who kills us and I can assure you it won't be you.

Some students see it as a failure if they announce they are going around and deal with it. What actually they don't know until I tell them is that a very warm feeling occurs in me as they have just shown they are learning to be a PIC.

Enjoy your training there is something very special about flying. I just can't help myself having a grin on my face everytime I get in a light aircraft.

[TrafficPilot]

Hi Andrew

I totally understand the dizzyness/nausea thing. I suffered the same when I was learning to fly.

I'm 6'2" and found the 152 quite uncomfortable for long training sessions so switched to the PA28 which was much more comfortable (and stable) than the 152.

So you may be able to "kill two birds with one stone" if you switch to a slightly larger SEP. The PA28 cost me an extra £15 an hour but was worth it for the extra room and better stability in bumpy conditions.

Adam
TrafficPilot

[BackPacker]

Best advice of all get a good nights sleep

No alcohol in the 24 hours before a flight also helps a lot. Particulary when you get to the stalls/steep turns and other airborne maneuvers part.

[kenparry]

On a side note, i am a fairly big guy, 6ft and 14st. i flew in a 152 which i had fun trying to get into. Is it worth trying to have lessons in a 172 or another plane?

The 152 has a quite limited disposable load. If you instructor is more than lightweight, you may be exceeding the permitted max gross weight of the aircraft when you have full fuel. Get your FI to to a check on this next time you fly - before you get airborne.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree with all of the good comments above.

Whilst I'm not personally prone to airsickness, I've worked on and off over the years as a flight test observer, and have on occasion resorted to a suitable non-drowsy motion sickness pill to help me function effectively - particularly if I have to work effectively whilst my pilot is flying aerobatic manoeuvres. It's fair game, and nothing to be ashamed of. Ditto wrist bands (which, for those with an interest in such things, act on the acupunture point "pericardium 6" I occasionally have my passengers simply massage that point with the thumb of the other hand, and it does work.)

And you adapt with time in the air.


But also, the C152 is more susceptible than most to turbulent conditions, plus small and cramped. The C172 or PA28 will both be much better in this regard, and whilst technically more expensive, if you can concentrate better in them, may actually get you to your PPL cheaper by flying a few less hours of learning.

Microlight instructors also solve this by sending solo students up with a large ballast bag in the back seat - on that sort of basis, always flying with full tanks in turbulent conditions help a bit, because it pushes the wing loading up and thus reduces the gust response. it's a small thing, but does no harm to discuss with your instructor.

Also, dress to be slightly cool rather than over-warm, and don't look at the instruments any more than the minimum you need to - that's good advice on multiple levels, including keeping a clear and comfortable head in lumpy conditions.

G

[Pace]

Genghis

I occasionally have my passengers simply massage that point with the thumb of the other hand, and it does work.)

I presume you get the female passengers to do this for you? Which part do they massage? can you be more specific :=

Pace

[fuzzy6988]

I echo what many of the others have said.

I remember my first flight being uncomfortably bumpy. My second flight was much, much better. Now I really enjoy my time up in the air in my C152! :)

I've also found this checklist useful: FAA Medical Certification / IMSAFE Checklist (http://www.leftseat.com/imsafe.htm)

I hope your initial experience hasn't put you off! It will get better the more you fly.


Think of your mind as a computer with a graphics card with on board memory and then a far larger memory card in the computer.


I think I suffer from this syndrome on many days of my life. ;)

[mealies]

The experience hasn't put me off, especially now i have received a lot of support from you guys.

Checking through the checklist fuzzy6988 posted, i realised i hadn't mentioned to to the instructor that i was on prescription drugs, nor did i check with my doctor to make sure I was cleared to fly.

Do i need to mention this to the instructor next time, or will just checking with my doctor be ok?

Andrew

[screetch]

Pretty much before you do any more flights or start your training I would try and get the medical certificate. It could be that you will not get it for health reasons etc and than you already spend money on flying.

Theses docs can also help you to check with the perscription medication and give you lots of advise.

[AndoniP]

don't know about the drugs.

I was bought a 5-hour package for my birthday and was sick on the first flight. I was too hot, had eaten a big-ish meal 1/2 an hour before flying, and was nervous. I had my thighs and stomach clenched a lot of the time. Luckily the instructor had sick bags. But I had to have another flight because I had 4 hours left!

The second flight was first thing in the morning and smooth as silk. It was an absolute joy.

So now I don't eat before I fly. Drink a bit of water beforehand. Wear a t-shirt. Ask the instructor to open the vents and get some cool air coming in. Wear shades so you don't squint and you'll enjoy the experience a lot more.

I've also been told the PA28 is a more stable aircraft, try one of those (I've never been in any other aircraft). Flights in the morning are sometimes better because the ground hasn't been heated causing the bumpy weather.

It took me about 10 hours to get over the nausea, but when the prop began spinning for the first time, i was sh*t scared. This isn't like a car!!

Good luck, flying is the best thing you can do :ok:

Andoni

[jez d]

Not for the lactose intolerant, but a glass of milk and plain cheese sandwich is another stomach liner that supposedly works wonders.

Regards, jez

[screetch]

where did you get the 5hr package from?

[Mr_Grubby]

Andrew,

Please don't give up !!!!!!

You will overcome this small problem and hopefully go on to enjoy many happy hours of flying.

But fly safe,

Clint.:ok::ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Pretty much before you do any more flights or start your training I would try and get the medical certificate. It could be that you will not get it for health reasons etc and than you already spend money on flying.

Theses docs can also help you to check with the perscription medication and give you lots of advise.


Ignoring all legal issues, common sense is that you talk to your GP about it and including in your discussion whether the drugs you are taking will have any effect and whether you should tell your instructor. If in doubt, I'd tell your instructor - it's playing fair.

And as others have said, if you are going for a licence, get the official medical out the way early, to avoid annoying surprises after you've already spent a lot on training.

G

[screetch]

You can tell Genghis your from the same airfield as I ... as I have heard the exact same words from someone else.

YES get the medical out of the way after your test flight. I did the same and after a few days of waiting I got the results and full steam ahead. :ok::ok:

[freon1978]

On a side note, i am a fairly big guy, 6ft and 14st. i flew in a 152 which i had fun trying to get into. Is it worth trying to have lessons in a 172 or another plane?

Try something like a PA38 similar cost, performs better. FAR more room!

[freon1978]

Andrew Firstly I experienced a similar problem when I first started flying but it went away within a few lessons, at the time I thought that I might be unusual and unsuited to flying but I now realise thats not the case at all. The fact that you came back before you were ill not only shows good sense but will also help you to build up your resistance (if you'd actually been sick it would be harder).

Secondly... can I ask who you had your trial lesson with? I'm surpised that no one has commented already on you being given the controls for the takeoff on your FIRST lesson!
I teach at an airfield with a 46M wide runway and still wouldn't let someone that I didn't know from Adam have the controls or even follow me through on their first lesson....

[Tmbstory]

Pace:

In my early days as an instructor at the RAC Bankstown, there was always competition amongst the instructors to teach the female students, especially in the Piper TriPacer PA- 22. The Master Switch location was at the lower section of the left hand seat ( the students seat) and when teaching the location of various switches and controls, there was always special attention to the master switch.

Tmb

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thoughts:

- I like the PA38, but it's no better in turbulence than a C152. Fine for me, but somebody with a weak stomach and little flying experience, maybe not.

- Controls for take-off may be following through. Obvious distinction after a few lessons / years / decades of flying, but maybe not after your first.

- Screetch, just because we fly from the same airfield, doesn't necessarily mean that I ever speak to anybody there! It's just a bit of common sense.

G

[mealies]

Freon1978 - The lesson was at Gloucestershire Airport. Not my local airport (mine is Biggin Hill) but it's the closest to my parents who bought me the Trial flight.

To be clear, I only had control of the yoke. I was following the instructor on the pedals and the instructor dealt with the power.

The club i will go with at Biggin Hill only has C172's so hopefully the slightly bigger plane will help, but as i stated earlier, i am sure i will get used to it quickly

Andrew

[Genghis the Engineer]

Freon1978 - The lesson was at Gloucestershire Airport. Not my local airport (mine is Biggin Hill) but it's the closest to my parents who bought me the Trial flight.

To be clear, I only had control of the yoke. I was following the instructor on the pedals and the instructor dealt with the power.

The club i will go with at Biggin Hill only has C172's so hopefully the slightly bigger plane will help, but as i stated earlier, i am sure i will get used to it quickly

Andrew

Next piece of advice - if you want to be taken seriously in aviation - it is an aircraft or aeroplane, never ever a plane which is variously a tree, woodworking tool, or mathematical shape - but never a flying machine.

G

[bingofuel]

Memories of Reach for the Sky , when Douglas Bader was told the same thing!!

[mealies]

Genghis - haha duly noted. Don't want to be accused of flying a woodworking tool.

[stevelup]

How is Headcorn for you travel wise?

They have some more interesting and rewarding aircraft to learn on there.

[207592]

Andrew

My first flight was courtesy of the RAF in an Anson out of Shawbury. It must have been bumpy because I noticed how the wings flexed. I have never been airsick but other than in the calm of the evening, I always seem to be bounced about by thermals or the wind. It's part of the challenge, especially on approach. My wife, however, had to give up flying, despite undertaking some long flights in summer thermals, simply because she felt unwell. She was sick only once, when the port wing dropped 60 degrees and was smartly picked up. She is also sea-sick and queasy in cars unless driving. I have a friend who started to learn to fly, but withdrew due to chronic airsickness.

So I'd encourage you to persevere a bit to see if you become inured without medication to the normal bumpiness of flight in light aircraft, but be prepared to accept on physiological grounds that flying may not be for you. You might find that when control of the aircraft becomes second nature, and you are required to navigate and use the radio, that there is no “spare brian” with which to evaluate your physiological state and airsickness will have become a passing phase. Equally, feeling ill will degrade your ability to aviate, navigate, communicate, and deal with emergencies. Certainly, there’s no fun flying if it makes you feel ill.

[MartinCh]

As many said, it's pretty normal and nothing to be ashamed of.

If you ever tried gliding and it was good soaring day, you'd be likely to see instructor suddenly do steep turn after the little clock started beeping mad and depending on the size of thermal, keeping turning. Also, where there's rising air, there's also sink. So if these two meet and you cross them at angle, it could be uncomfortable.

Boy, if you think you may not get over bit of thermals, you better think twice. There are many things to learn and at first, you may feel stressed out or panick at first, but then you learn the routine, dealing with emergencies (practice) etc. Let the consciousness dictate your senses that it's OK. If you keep flying, your senses will get much sharper, you'd notice and correct for small sudden bank/pitch changes due to turbulence.

Glider pilots (proper pilots) learn to all sorts of turbulence, learn to read it, feel it, seek it. Especially the one that gives you extra height :-D

Some suggest PA-38. Well, better visibility and space, for sure, but old C152 is better for spin and stall training, further down the line.
Gives you bit of reassurance that C152 gets out of spin if you let go of(f?) controls (subject to serious height loss, but nonetheless), unlike Tomahawk.

Anyway, less food, ventilation, (cold head), looking out (to avoid dizziness).
Trust me, low G loading (feeling light) is very uncomfortable to body due to the cochlear hair (inner ear) getting weird 'readings'. Above 1G, it's easier. The problem is, turbulence/gusts/chops can have both in very short period and the airspeed exacerbates the sensations.

Reminds me of one beautiful soaring day in July, touching down in 'Frankfurt' Hahn on RYR flight. People (incl me as passenger) getting OOH AAAH when we were crossing beautiful thermal bubbles on long final/descent. Then put bit of crosswind and pilots' rudder corrections to stay in the axis of runway, and you get aplause.
NO, not the shabby prerecorded 'welcome to yet another on time RYR flight', but from the passengers, clapping their hands thinking the pilot saved the day or what. C'mon.. :ugh: Why? Because they don't know any better. You do. It's all fine.

Stick with it. If you don't get past 5 or so hours in the air feeling very sick all the time, even in smooth air, well, then maybe. I've been very uncomfortable doing running landing on SKIDS heli, screeching down the tarmac at pretty high ground speed, or on gliding aerotow when I didn't control it well in sharp turns or bumpy air (you know, take offs attached to tug plane in front of us/me).

Flying trike airplanes off big tarmac? Easy. Anyone can learn the basics. Giving up is easy. Coming to terms with our :mad: ups and fears not so.

Hope you take some pics on that day. I've got some gliding trial lesson pics for one lady and her daughter today, they didn't take proper camera. Nice.

Be :cool: in cockpit and you'll :) on your way home. Have fun next flight.

[mad_jock]

Some suggest PA-38. Well, better visibility and space, for sure, but old C152 is better for spin and stall training, further down the line.
Gives you bit of reassurance that C152 gets out of spin if you let go of(f?) controls (subject to serious height loss, but nonetheless), unlike Tomahawk.


Ehh so you want to use something which doesn't behave properly to teach someone how to deal with a situation?

Tommahawk stalls properly none of this mushing about pish. Rummble rumble there goes the nose it might have a bit of wing drop but that just aids teaching.

As for the spin, yep it spins properly, it spins faster when you apply rudder as per the book then comes out of the spin when you apply the method in the POH.

It was designed as a trainer, it hasn't had all the nasty's designed out of it. It makes a very good trainer, no similar 2-4 seat type after that will cause the pilot any difficultys converting onto.

Now if you said the T tail and trim system were a bit pants you would have had a point.

Can't wait to get my hands on the piper Cadet to see whats it's like. Just looking at it, it looks as if its got potential. (the school I help out at is getting one in the next couple of months)

[10W]

mad_jock,

the roof is too low on the Traumahawk as well :p

[FlyingStone]

10W: Much better than DA20 or C152... My head still remembers few downdrafts in DA20 - regardless of four-point belts :hmm:

[mad_jock]

10w is taking the wee.

We were doing some spinning in a PA38 and there was some forward stick on when the plane unstalled resulting in me belting my head off the roof when it bunted. (note to PA-38 drivers read your POH about spinning the "standard spin recovery" ain't pretty in a tommy)

10w due to him being a short arse with hollow legs for filling with stella didn't bang his head.

Twas my own fault though, it was one of those "I learned about instructing moments" when you get an experenced pilot refresher flight. ;)

[MartinCh]

mad_jock,
I see what you mean regarding the initial training. I guess you did/may do apply the 'learn to swim being thrown in water' method with kids.
Some people prefer a 'warning signs'. Behaving properly, uhm.

I've done spins/stalls in couple different two seater gliders. I can appreciate different handling and doing 'proper spin' instead of going nose down after forcing the ship into spin.

I've just read that original J3C Cubs easily drop wing on stall due to no camber on tail surfaces or something along that line. I'll check it out in two months :-D

Anyway, I believe proper handling training is in gliders and taildraggers. Feel free to shun that. BTW, low-ish winch launch cable break practice is even more fun than hammerhead stalls.

[mad_jock]

I would agree with gliders but then again I firmly believe that the whole instructing fraternity and progression in the gliding community is streets ahead of the powered setup. And gliders certainly makes you know what your feet should be doing.

You get all the warning signs that you read in the book with a tommy. I will admit it didn't used to give you much warning and they put the rumble strips on. But now it does.

There is alot of unjustified bad press out there about the tommy.

Look at the tail it wobbles
The wing drops like a bitch
You die if you spin it.
The tail falls off.

But all said the exercise 1-14 are your foundation to your whole flying career be it for fun or professional. If you get taught correctly from the word go in a machine which isn't designed not to bite your bum if you do something stupid with the safety of an instructor next to you. You have a floating foundation, instead of a foundation locked to the base rock of knowledge and experence. That floating foundation may come unstuck when you least expect it.

H'mm got that a bit back to front the PA38 gives the good foundation and the designed for comfort and nice handling gives the floating

[RatherBeFlying]

Early in the season, I can make myself sick in gliders and have on occasion had to make alternate use of a pee bag or two. You feel much better afterwards;)

[AndoniP]

screetch - i got the 5-hour package from cabair at elstree.

hours count towards my ppl so all good really, it's sufficient time to realise whether you love flying or not. fortunately i love it and have continued my training.

[MartinCh]

MEALIES,

When do you get up next time? Let us know how you did.

I had enough of convection turbulence in Robinson 22 helicopter, cruising at 90kt. Not that fast for fixed wing, but enough for flimsy lil' chopper with notoriously dangerous rotorhead system if not handled well. Holding stick steady and wedged against thigh to forbid myself counteract the gusts out of habit (like in hover). Give me those thermals in paragliding and gliding and I'll be fine.

BTW, there was a thread in the 'rotorheads' section (I think) about heli pilots and fear of height. Or some guy felt uneasy higher up and started thread and how to overcome it, then heli guys contributed. I know it's not about turbulence, but just goes to show something.
Not counting "chronic fears of heights" persons, you'd find enough experienced rotary pilots who don't feel comfy in helicopter high up. Whether it's the (too good) visibility, or other factors. Many of them fly low, 500-1500' AGL on the job most of the time.
Some agree that it's the irrational feeling of less security, seeing the void below, unfamiliar view - and that's commercial pilots.

Haha, that reminds me of one old chap who used to fly crop duster, Czech Zlin Z37 'Bumblebee'. He spend pretty much all of the time below 150' AGL, having flown 3-4000 hours dusting. He said that they were so used to fly low that they tended to fly same heights when ferrying between fields, airfields etc. Strictly no-no these days.

I'm scared of heights. I am. Just that it's rather on top/edge of bridge spans, high rise blocks, etc. In aircraft, not really. Irrational, isn't it? flying low level-ish, skimming the ridge, nearing the base of nice cumulus in thermal at 4000-6000ft, oh, what fun.

m_j,
so we pretty much agree. I just think that people (especially those who can get stressed out or queasy) may prefer more docile aircraft to start with.
I do also believe that sooner or later during their training they really should keep on practicing spins, being shown spin from crap turn and how easy it is sometimes when overloaded with information, conditions, cows getting bigger..
Some vintage aircraft don't have geometrically or aerodynamically twisted wing for pre-stall buffet warning (stalling at the root first). Early solo pilot may not notice something not right till too late in these, hence 'stick shaking' could be good.

I never said that Tommy is death trap. Just that it needs some inputs to get it back to nicer attitude from what I read (which people have to have hammered into their brain anyway, as you say as well). I haven't flown it, just saw in the hangar in the fleet of one aeroclub. It ain't tailwheel, anyway.

[mad_jock]

Spinning is a bit hard core these days most new instructors poo themselves if you even suggest they spin anything.

Its not even part of the course these days unless the student wants to do it.

they don't need to haver anything hammered into there brains apart from how to fly properly using attitude which is the whole point of the exercises anyway. Its more lively than a cessna but it ain't an aero's machine.

Never had a problem with students in them. In fact I have had more folk barf in a C150/C152 than I have in a PA38. In fact we do a fear of flying course in them which so far has a very high success rate. The barfing thing is proberly to do with the fact the whole thing is so sluggish to respond in the C152. Puts it into the natural freq range of folks stomachs Where as the tommy bouncing around is higher freq and more responsive, doesn't confuse the brain and inner ear because the picture changes with the bump instead of a wee bit after.

Another advantage in the tommy/pipers is that as soon as you start the prop the vents put a blast of air right where its needed on your face/torso instead of cooling your ankles so the cockpit is more pleasant on the taxi out.

Go and have a shot in one, they are bloody good fun and you might see what I mean. I have 750 hours in them and even after 3500hours of flying twin turbo props I love going back to fly them and teach in them. The other 200 hours instructing I have done is in C152's and if I get my way I won't do another hour in the smelly under powered cramped heaps of poo.

O aye once you get them off the ground/ your not landing there is nothing special about the handling of a taildragger what ever the strut boys would have you believe (well thats not true with some of them but personally I think thats a rigging issue not an aerodynamic one)

[Gulfstreamaviator]

so forgive me.

I had a trial lesson many years ago at Biggin Hill, FLYING CLUB.

Hated it.

Had second one next day.

Now I have 13000 hrs, World wide corporate experience, and never had a real job ever.... LOL.

go for it...

PS I am scared of heights too.


glf

[MartinCh]

m_j,

I've heard/read such stuff as 'spin awareness' power training, ie no proper spin inducing and getting out of required. Guess I'm too biased having been flying gliders for a while.
I can't see anyone being 'signed off' for solo (in glider) without stall and spin training.
Sure, some gliders don't spin that well, some do.

You're couple thousand hours ahead of me, so I don't pretend to know it all :-)
If things go well, I'll have plenty more power flying under belt next 2-3 years, besides gliding fun.

Rudder use is more required in low power tailwheel, although the adverse yaw isn't as bad as in gliders if turning with stick only. I'm not exactly airline wannabe, so I want to learn in taildraggers next, then some seaplane/float flying, etc.
Isn't taking off and landing the main area of 'handling' anyway?

[A2QFI]

I can't guarantee they they will work but I had a UAS student who was fairly ill when airborne and couldn't tolerate his or my aerobatics at all.

I sent him to B**ts to buy some wristlets called 'C' Bands; I told him that if they didn't work I would pay for them which was no big deal as they were £5 a pair. They did work and he kept them and bought me a beer!

They might be another link in your tolerance of or adaption to motion sickness. Good luck

[mad_jock]

You and me both mate still on a learning curve myself.

There is stall training and spin awareness but no spinning as such.

FI's have to demonstrate a spin in thier intial FI test but don't have to again after that and they don't have to patter it.

Commercial pilots who don't go down the FI route may have never done a spin ever.

Landing and takeoff are the application of the basic handling exercises which are the foundations of flying. If the student can look out the window and use the controls to set a picture and let the aircraft do the flying by trimming properly everything else falls into place. If the aircraft does as per the book there are no suprises left for the student. If the aircraft has by design been sedated they have only seen half the experence picture.

Anyway 90% of the stress level of the student is dictated by how confident and stressed out the instructor is. A chilled confident instructor will be able to create the same learning enviroment and the student will know. A twitchy at the controls, covering the rudder pedals not confident in thier own skills of either flying or instructing will create a stressed out learning enviroment.

BTW in no way am implying that the instructor of the OP created a stressed out enviroment, he could have been 120% maxed out and had the old white knuckle death grip on the controls. Wouldn't be the first and wouldn't be the last to do that either who then continued on to get their brown book.

[mealies]

Thanks for all the replies. I hope to be going for another lesson next month (this time at Biggin Hill)

I have been looking into the class 2 medical requirements on the CAA website and i am 99% certain i will fail due to my eyesight. I can only read the first 3 letters on a eye chart with my left eye even with glasses. My right eye has 20/20 vision. I think i am still able to get a NPPL though.

The class 2 medical also mentions a ECG. I suffer from occasional irregular heartbeats. Can anyone tell me if this is an issue for PPL/NPPL medicals?

Andrew

[fuzzy6988]

The class 2 medical also mentions a ECG. I suffer from occasional irregular heartbeats. Can anyone tell me if this is an issue for PPL/NPPL medicals?


I would recommend rining a CAA approved medical examiner to discuss:
Medical Examiners Database Search | Medical | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=65&appid=21)

Have a look through this as well: Initial JAR Class 2 (Private Pilot) Medical Examination | Medical | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=528)

[mad_jock]

Go and have a chat with your GP and see if they would sign you off for a HGV medical. I suspect your correct about the JAR medical.

The problem with us lot giving an opinion is that it means didly squat in the grand scale of things. And will either give you a false sense of hope or make you depressed thinking you won't get it.

I have seen folk get a NPPL medical which I thought how they hell did they manage to get that. And others who were refused and nobody can quite work out why although in hindsight it was proberly a mental health issue.

The link below gives car and HGV medical requirments

At a glance guide to the current medical standards of fitness to drive (http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/medical/ataglance.aspx)

[tggzzz]

If you ever tried gliding and it was good soaring day, you'd be likely to see instructor suddenly do steep turn after the little clock started beeping mad and depending on the size of thermal, keeping turning. Also, where there's rising air, there's also sink. You normally hit the sink just before you find the lift, since the sink surrounds the lift. Imagine a mushroom cloud (or petrol explosion) rising through the air - the air in the "bubble" rises fastest in the centre and goes downwards on the periphery.

By "steep turn" you mean up to 70 degrees, and if there's another glider at the same level then to see them you look "upwards" and see the top of their hat. Great fun.

Glider pilots (proper pilots) learn to all sorts of turbulence, learn to read it, feel it, seek it. "Flying by the seat of your pants" is not an abstract expression.

[freon1978]

Spinning is a bit hard core these days most new instructors poo themselves if you even suggest they spin anything.

Its not even part of the course these days unless the student wants to do it.

they don't need to haver anything hammered into there brains apart from how to fly properly using attitude which is the whole point of the exercises anyway. Its more lively than a cessna but it ain't an aero's machine.

Never had a problem with students in them. In fact I have had more folk barf in a C150/C152 than I have in a PA38. In fact we do a fear of flying course in them which so far has a very high success rate.
Another advantage in the tommy/pipers is that as soon as you start the prop the vents put a blast of air right where its needed on your face/torso instead of cooling your ankles so the cockpit is more pleasant on the taxi out.

Go and have a shot in one, they are bloody good fun and you might see what I mean. I have 750 hours in them and even after 3500hours of flying twin turbo props I love going back to fly them and teach in them. The other 200 hours instructing I have done is in C152's and if I get my way I won't do another hour in the smelly under powered cramped heaps of poo.



I'd second all of that! approx 600 hours on PA38's now and i wouldn't instruct ab initio on anything else that i've flown so far out of choice. Simple matter is that the PA38 was designed as a trainer and therefore behaves as one.

Oh and so far not a single student has even asked to do any spinning!