1:500,000 or 1:250,000 VFR Charts

[Shiny_Pants]

This may sound like a stupid question but i've reached a point during my PPL after a few lessons whereby i'm looking at buying a few bits and pieces which i'm going to need at some point during the course.

I'm taking lessons in and around London and was wondering what VFR charts would be preferable when flying in this area, whether it be 1:500,000 or 1:250,000.

[Whopity]

If you are flying an aeroplane the 1:500,00 is the most useful, if you are flying a helicopter I'd use the 1:250,000.

[EddieHeli]

Personally I use both.
The half mil is good for planning and the overview, but the quarter is much easier to navigate by whilst actually flying if low and reasonably slow.
Assuming you actually plot your route on the chart, rather than just use GPS. But even then I tend to use the memory map quarter mil on an Ipaq with a bluetooth GPS receiver as confirmation.
Of course if you are blatting along from VOR to VOR at 140kts then the half mil is fine and less of them to carry.

[Whirlygig]

Agree with Whopity although I would add both are useful for helicopters; depends on the distance you're flying. :)

Cheers

Whirls

[Piper.Classique]

Sheesh, if your aircraft is as slow as my Cub then it's less discouraging with a 250 000. Seriously though, if the airspace is complicated then it might help to have both. I use memory map charts on CD for flight planning, then print them for one-off use. Nice clean map each flight.

[bigfatchris]

Nav: Half mil for the en-route airbourne. Use the quarter mil to have a look for features near fixes and turning points before you go, in case there are features not shown on the 1:500K's.

250's are good for near the airfield too...

(Google maps sat photos can also be handy for turning points, but take into account for seasonal variation!)

[BackPacker]

I tend to use 1:500.000 for most of my (fixed wing) flying. But for a complicated area like London I would prefer 1:250.000. And I recently completed a rather tricky flight using a 1:50.000 even.

[chris-h]

I think you are only required to use the 1:500.000 for PPL training but after you get your license maybe treat yourself to a gps, and flick between both maps. Id try and spens as little as possible at the moment :ok:

[ShyTorque]

if you are flying a helicopter I'd use the 1:250,000.

Must ask why? :confused:

[IO540]

if you are flying a helicopter I'd use the 1:250,000.

Surely, a real helicopter pilot uses the 1:25k ;)

I use the 1:500k only, but then I don't navigate visually. GPS only, backed up by VOR/DME etc.

[FlyingStone]

Always used 1:500k, never got so lost that couldn't find myself in a reasonable amount of time - although it is true that some Jeppesen VFR+GPS charts are pretty ****, since for some countries level of details is pretty good (lakes, powerlines, etc.) and for the other is really bad (Hungary for ex.).

[fuzzy6988]

For London or any densely populated terminal area, I would recommend starting off with 1:250,000 and then moving up to 1:500,000 when you're more familiar with the airspace and doing more x-country flights.

[IO540]

IMHO, the straight answer is that the 1:500k is perfectly OK for fixed wing flying, and the 1:250k offers additional detail which is relevant only if one is navigating using the map+stopwatch method.

The obvious drawback of the 1:250k is that you have quite a few of them, which becomes a hassle if going anywhere.

The Jepp 1:500k maps are poor in comparison with the UK CAA ones, and contain many ambiguities in airspace labelling (which is IMHO unacceptable) but are better than most other national maps, and practically speaking they are all there is for the majority of Europe.

[Cows getting bigger]

I would say half-mil all the time. If you are on any form of reasonable length trip, the quarter mil either takes up too much space or you are constantly refolding it.

[Chippik]

I use 1:250 all the time and never had a problem with space (flying a chipmunk) when doing a long nav trip I just make sure my maps are folded in such a way that I can refold in flight quickly and easily.
One thing to bear in mind is that the 1:250 has airspace info up to 5000ft

[Molesworth 1]

Its a good question. In the NATS videos about the London TMS Irv Lee has the quarter mill while the pilot (sorry I forgot the name) has the half mill. At numerous points Irv says that the quarter mill has relevant detail which is not seen on the half mill.

Up until recently I always used the half mill charts. However I've become drawn to the quarter mill and haven't quite decided whether they're a help or just confusing me! I have the Aware GPS and had the battery go dead (didn't realise the cig lighter plug didn't work) within 5 miles of Luton controlled airspace. Caught me unawares and I panicked - which didn't impress my passenger much, especially when I had to take both hands off the control yoke ("steering wheel") to reset the GPS!

Instantly learnt that

a) Don't panic if unsure of position. I turned a few degrees so make sure I wasn't heading for controlled airspace. Farnborough North asked for my position as I had forgotten to turn the transponder back on. As soon as it was on they gave it too me. I found the power Monkey - reset the unit and when the GPS came back on I was exactly on track. (No brownie points for good airmanship that day!)

b) Do your route planning as if you didn't have a GPS. Have lots of waypoints and keep track of times.

c) Much more fun following railway lines, roads and coast lines then the magenta line on the GPS.

[Whirlygig]

No doubt one of the Three Stooges will be along to shoot me down but, I believe, that the 1:500,000 CAA chart actually has some legal standing i.e. you have a current chart, are caught overflying say, a prohibited area which hasn't been marked, you have a reasonable defence.

I don't believe such a luxury exists with the 1:250,000.

Cheers

Whirls

[rans6andrew]

having sorted out the paper charts, would you then consider the charts for the Aware GPS.

Is the 250,000 upgrade useful? I have not played with the unit yet, but wonder if the zoom of the display in 500,000 scale charts is enough.

I am likely to be bimbling along at about 90kts (my other aircraft is slower) and find that 250,000 paper charts are good for detail and give enough "speed illusion".

What have others found?

Andrew.

[Molesworth 1]

I have the 250000 Aware GPS upgrade. Very nice. You need to use it in conjunction with a bigger map to maintain an overall picture. Same as with a car sat nav. Good view of the trees but which wood am I in?

[funfly]

Don't forget that the airspace shown on a quarter mil map does not go as high as the half mil (as far as I remember) Something you also have to remember if you buy Jeppeson maps. Perhaps those more knowledgeable than I can offer more details about this to you.

[asyncio]

Another important difference is that the 1:500k has the maximum elevation figures on it. Your instructor may want you to use those for flight planning.
And in the Nav exam, you'll be given a 1:500k one, so you might as well get used to using it.

There is also the problem that the place names are different between the two maps. Some appearing on one, but not the other, and you'll probably find that your local ATC will use the ones on the 1:500k map.

I'd recommend getting the 1:500k chart, and if you feel the need, get the digital 1:250k one and print out any areas of interest to you on A5 so you can stick them in your kneeboard.

[bad bear]

I recomend using both 1;250,000 and 1;500,000. but would back it up with a PDA using seeyou mobile. A hp312 travel mate has a good screen and battery life and seeyou will bark at you if you go near CAS.
Gliderpilots have been using this stuf for 10 years or more and seldom infringe airspace as a result. If you want to fly without gps i would recomend practicing well away from airspace and once you can thread your plane through narrow gaps ( 2nm) in bland countyrside at low level before going anywhere near north london
strongly recomend reading "ontrack" to see how even expreinced ppls infringe in this area. VOR tracking is useless and one needs to be able to re route at short notice if ATC do not give clearances you might hope for. the PDA can give help in a way that no other device can when the presure comes on in poor vis or low sun.
The boundaries of airspace are not designed to help us navigate clear of it and the area round EGSS is notoriously difficult ,even for very experienced pilots.
bb
ps with the HP312 and seeyou software you can download your flight and see if you went where you thought you went and asess how good your nav really is. Instructors would also be able to monitor solo pilots tracks and see infringements or gross errors

[Shiny_Pants]

Having just received my shiny new 'PPL Study Pack' i suppose it was only going to be a matter of time before i asked 'how are you supposed to fold the chart'? :)

I'm assuming the way in which you fold your chart depends on what airspace you're going to be mainly flying in. I've had a look at a couple of 'how to' pages on various aviation websites but can't seem to make head nor tail of them so i decided to try a bit of DIY and i've ended up with an A4 sized chart covering the vast majority of the bottom right hand side of the England South chart (London).

Can anyone share any hints or tips on the folding of CAA charts?

[1800ed]

There is a way! But it's quite tricky to explain in writing and the best bet is to go to your club and ask someone to show you. Also, it depends on which 'page' you want to show when the map is in its folded state.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The obvious drawback of the 1:250k
I haven't seen one for years, but don't I remember that they run out at treetop height, so are only really any use if you're hedge-hopping? Which suggests that the half mil map is what you need if you want to avoid busting airspace.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Can anyone share any hints or tips on the folding of CAA charts?
I've been taught:

(1) Fold the map. Any old how, doesn't matter.

(2) Find an airfield in the middle of the visible bit of the map.

(3) Do your flying from there.

[24Carrot]

To be legal you need a full current chart, folded any way you like. Does anybody know if it has to be half-mill? I thought 1/4 mill was OK too.

But the chart you actually use can be anything. This is what I do:

Buy a second chart, and cut it into a big square with your "home airfield" in the centre. The aim is to fold this into 16 little squares so choose the size appropriately.

Fold it vertically down the middle, crease it.
Fold it horizontally across the middle, crease it.

The next bit is a little fiddly, but makes folding easier later.
Make two more vertical folds, to divide the big square into four vertical strips.
DO NOT fold at the exact quarter points, but about 2cm or so away from the centre, ie toward the edge. This allows the outside strips to easily fold under the central ones.

Do the same thing horizontally.

You can now fold this into a variety of 2x2, 2x3, 3x2 configurations, secured with bulldog clips.

You can also have extra charts with the base airfield at the extreme left, extreme top, etc, depending on the airspace around you and your typical routes. You can try 36 square versions too, always making the outer strips smaller than the inner ones.

The benefit of cutting is it makes folding easier. The more layers you have, the harder it is to fold. I believe there is a rule in topology that you can't fold anything more than 7 times. Try it with a bath towel! (Actually, it probably isn't topology...)

The obvious drawback of cutting is reduced coverage, but in practice it is hard to re-fold a big chart anyway. Or even suicidal (eg R22 solo...) In that situation I would prefer multiple overlapping charts.

I have seen big charts folded so that they "concertina", but I think this only works well if you are going North/South or East/West. I am more than happy to be enlightened about that!

[IO540]

To be legal you need a full current chart

ANO reference please.

The current ANO is here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf).

[24Carrot]

I was just parroting what an examiner had told me the day before. And also every FI I ever met. I had not consulted the ANO.

So thanks for the link. I did a text search on 'chart' and came up with the core MEL for almost every kind of glider, aeroplane and helicopter flight, in Section 1 Para 4 and Schedule 4.

A(2) Maps, charts, codes and other documents and navigational equipment necessary, in addition to any other equipment required under this Order, for the intended flight of the aircraft including any diversion which may reasonably be expected.Interestingly it also said:
3 The following items of equipment are not required to be of a type approved by EASA or the CAA:
(a) the equipment referred to in Scale A(2);
I am not a lawyer, etc, etc, but I think that tells me my cut chart would be fine on its own. And it could be 1/2 mill, or 1/4 mill, or even an OS map if my trip was short enough and I had some notes on Airspace, etc.

But this goes against everything I was ever told, so if I have missed something, I would love to get a link to it!

[IO540]

I was just parroting what an examiner had told me the day before. And also every FI I ever metAs you found, and I dare say predictably so having been through the PPL training scene myself 10 years ago, they were feeding you bull :)

You need to carry suitable data for the flight, basically. It doesn't even have to be in paper form - 100% electronic is legal (if not necessarily wise - another debate).

There are some countries, I vaguely recall, which do require the carriage of a printed chart, but it's nobody anywhere near here.

On a different tack, the UK CAA (and I think almost every other CAA in Europe) has a monopoly on the publication and sale (and profit generation therefrom) of VFR charts. It would then be rather rich of them to require the purchase and carriage of these... probably illegal under EU competition law.

On a different tack again, there is VFR and there is IFR, and anybody wanting to get into mandatory chart carriage under IFR is going to get into a right pickle. And that's before one gets into the UK Class G scene where you can switch VFR-IFR non-radio, etc.

[24Carrot]

I learn stuff all the time...

And to address Whirlygig's point then, it looks like the 1/2 mill and 1/4 mill are equally 'legal' so long as they cover the flight area and flight level.

[IO540]

Yes, not only those but also charts from

- Jeppesen
- French SIA (they cover the southern UK coast)
- French IGN (as above)
- French Cartabossy (as above)
etc

Equally legal will be other electronic representations which never existed in paper form e.g. Jeppesen Flitestar charts, PocketFMS chart data, etc. These are likely to be more current than printed charts anyway.

The thing which would IMHO be foolish would be flying with a printed chart which is say 5 years old. Yet, the latest VFR chart for Greece is the 1998 ONC one ;)

[mikehallam]

Where exactly does the ANO, previously mentioned on this thread say all those maos/charts by name, or is it just an inference ?

I've been ploughing through it and the nearest so far is:


CAP393, Scale A, item 2).
Which merely states :-

"Maps, charts....necessary for the intended flight of the aircraft, including any diversion which may reasonably be expected"

Not anything there or associated, in the paragraphs to say 'what', 'how' or 'up to date', nor to which scale they are supposed to be !

If nothing else, except to the initiated it's a pretty obscure schedule
May be it's more like Common Law, only Case History can define ?

Now go on, tell us exactly where the ANO hides these jewels of info.

mikehallam

[Gertrude the Wombat]

"Maps, charts....necessary for the intended flight of the aircraft, including any diversion which may reasonably be expected"
Which could be no charts at all if for example

- the intended flight is remaining in the circuit

- you can find your way to a choice of several local diversion airfields by following routes you know well

- it's a good VMC day.

[BackPacker]

Yep. That's exactly the basis on which we operate aerobatics flights with no loose stuff in the cockpit at all.

Although there are some things that you're legally required to carry as paper items, not as memory or digital items: Your license plus picture ID, and some aircraft paperwork (POH, CofA and a few other bits and pieces). Yes, these are neatly tucked away so as not to pose a flight hazard.

[Gyronut]

Flying in a small MT03 open gyro cockpit makes it difficult for chart reading, I have a 1/4 mil recently re-folded to show my route. I also have my iphone plugged into the external power socket running memory map on 1/4 mil map. That gives me two references as to where I am (iball & iphone) and as the maps are the same so I can quickly flit between the two to see my position. Also, should my back up navigation equipment (iphone) fail I can quickly revert back to the primary paper one.