No. of Landings during PPL training

[Kiev23]

Hi,

Just wondering how many landings it took you all to complete your PPL flight training ? Just so I can work out some rough costings of the total cost of my PPL.

Thanks in advance

[Lister Noble]

Where I learned the landings were inclusive of the flight,as many as it took.
:)

[BackPacker]

In the US (no landing fees whatsoever) I did 125 landings altogether. Half of these were leading up to first solo.

[bern444]

They make you pay separate landing fees? Is that common? Seems a bad way of doing things to me.

B

[FlyingStone]

Total 222, pre-solo 91 - didn't pay any landing fees...

[Alan_D]

No idea how many landings I did during training, but no landing fees at my home airfield, so the only landing fees I paid during my training were for land-aways, a total of about 8 I think dual and solo at about £10 each.

[JUST-local]

Easy to say "Don't pay any landing fees".

In the real world most/lots of places are charging for each landing and T & G in the UK.

Anyway back to the question!

Kiev23:- Due to your location and recent posts all the airfields/airports in the North west of England charge for training landings and t & g.

The number required for you to become proficient at landing a light aircraft and completing the course in your budget will depend mainly on you! Continuity of your lessons and effort seem to be the key.
Weather conditions and your instructor (do you get on with them) are also factors.

I would say you could do a JAR PPL (A) with a total of 100 landings at your base airport. As I said above add more if you have poor continuty etc. etc.

Good luck with your PPL.

[A and C]

If you are paying for each landing or T&G then you are learning at the wrong place!

It is common practice forsome trainning providors to buy landing fee contracts at the airfields they are based at and then charge the student pilots at the full "visitor" rate. This is a nice little money maker.

As an instructor I have found that the number of landings before solo flight is usualy constant, however the number of hours to solo depends on the size of the circuit, those places with large circuits to avoid noise sensitive zones are likely to be more costly to fly at.

[JUST-local]

A & C,
As I said the guy is looking in the north west and they all charge for the pleasure.
The airport I instruct at they charge for each one at half of the published rate (based operators and training flights) and the school simply passes them on at that price, others on airfield make money on them!
Its his money he could move away and do a PPL at an airfield or strip and pay no fees or he could do it at a regional airport and pay for each one staying at home in Preston.
The other choice is then the school that passes them on at cost or the school makes money on them. Choices choices.

From my airport I find myself and colleagues need around 15 hours of training (part time students, the most common) before they are prepared for solo flight.

[screetch]

hi i havent quite finished my ppl yet, but have a bout 166 landings so far

[joelgarabedian]

Hi Kiev,

You might want to check out this thread...

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/396722-approx-nppl-ppl-costs.html

I did about 60 full stop landings, and 50 touch-and-goes before my Skills Test, booking two lessons a week (and getting pretty lucky with the weather!)

Joel.

[screetch]

only 60 landings? wow... I did a reallty long circuit session. Spend like 20 hrs on it. One circuit was about 5 min long..so in hour I made a lot of landings.. However I think I counted the touch and goes as well as all full stop landings but still 50 more than you did :(

However I didnt not have to pay a landing fee other than landing away. Which I only did twice sofar for my qualifying cross country and will do again for my solo cross country

[joelgarabedian]

Heh, I see it the other way round Screetch - you've got the experience of 50 more landings than I did during your training, and you've saved about £1500 in landing fees! I'm pretty jealous! ;)

[IO540]

Probably about 100-150 I guess.

There is an obscession with circuit bashing, which really clocks them up.

[codemonkey]

i´m 40 hours into my PPL so most of the circuit work is over with. total landings: 110. all free of charge at stapleford.

[screetch]

well I wouldnt call it bashing. I am at Booker EGTB and we have the 06, 24 and 35 circuit, 2 grass and one hard runway. Depending on the wind I had to learn all the circuits well enought to go solo on them which just took longer than when you learn on an airfield with only one runway and 2 possible circuits.

Maybe the first few circuits i have done were awefull as the circuits are really short and you didnt have time to think about all the RT and checks etc.

However i am sure the landing fee is build into the rental fee somehow..


Overall I would plan 7000-8000 for a PPL in the south? With an average of 55-65 hrs of flying time. Normally you will have delays and repeat lessons due to weather or long time between your lessons. This is when only flying on weekends. Would everybody agree? The more frequent you fly and the better the weather the less time you will need (if you are not too stupid)

[mixsfour]

Including skills test it took me; 60hrs, 87 touch & go's, 61 home landings, 6 away landings in 11 months.

[swopiv]

To answer the original question: one for every take off. At least. And i did not get charged for them! I pay an annual fee for club membership and this gives me unlimited landings.

[Whopity]

The number of circuits will vary tremendously between individuals. I recall on RAF Flying Scholarships we sent students solo after about 24 circuits; and 9 hours of flying; in many cases this was too soon but the RAF would not let you go beyond 10 hours without individual authorisation. I suspect most PPL candidates are nearer 50 to solo. There is a growing trend for instructors to go into the circuit before all the basics have been taught; this increases the number of circuits and often results in a poor standard of flying.

If the interest in the number of circuits is based upon the cost of each circuit (landing fees not aircraft cost) then it is worrying that safety is being affected by the need to reduce the number.

As a PPL examiner I have noted that the standard of landings is now very poor; under the old UK system where general handling was tested in a one hour GST a much higher standard was observed. The lengthy JAA PPL Skill Test means that candidates seldom give their best and examiners frequently give the tired student the benefit of the doubt. It would appear we need more rather than less circuits.

[jez d]

I agree with Whopity.

Another question: How many PFLs, EFATOs did you do during your PPL training?

Regards, jez

[screetch]

I think I have done about 10 PFL sofar. Everynow and than my instructor kills the power unexpectitly. Obvisouly I think this great and keep current in it on the other hand I see my money training away . I really do wantt to finish now and practice on my own

[joelgarabedian]

PFL - Lots :) We spent a couple of lessons practicing them, but like Screetch after that my instructor would often close the throttle and announce an engine failure unexpectedly, usually when I was tasked up doing something else, or when it would be difficult to select a landing site. I think this is a great way to make a PFL more realistic, and I often find myself playing the "Engine Failure Game" when flying solo now - thinking "if the engine failed now, where would I choose to land?".

EFATO - Around 10, and probably half of those when performing a go-around from a PFL.

I've since completed differences training on an SA Bulldog, and undertook some more PFL practice as part of the conversion. Without power, the Bulldog descends at over twice the rate of the Tomahawk I learned in, so it really gets you thinking decisively :ok:

Joel.

[stevelup]

I'm currently at 37:20 hours and have a total of 138 landings / T&G's so far.

110 of these were done during the circuits phase!

[Big Pistons Forever]

PFL - Lots :) We spent a couple of lessons practicing them, but like Screetch after that my instructor would often close the throttle and announce an engine failure unexpectedly, usually when I was tasked up doing something else, or when it would be difficult to select a landing site. I think this is a great way to make a PFL more realistic, and I often find myself playing the "Engine Failure Game" when flying solo now - thinking "if the engine failed now, where would I choose to land?".

EFATO - Around 10, and probably half of those when performing a go-around from a PFL.

I've since completed differences training on an SA Bulldog, and undertook some more PFL practice as part of the conversion. Without power, the Bulldog descends at over twice the rate of the Tomahawk I learned in, so it really gets you thinking decisively :ok:

Joel.


Just curious. How much time did your instructor talk about using pilot decision making skills to avoid having the engine fail in the first place, dealing with partial engine failures (the most common kind), and techniques to get the engine going again if it did fail ?

[screetch]

hmm thinking about it we had a few chats about to do and watch to watch out for. otherwise its really only the books and the manuals of restarting and what to check etc..

the thing is you can probably do your ppl in 100hrs and still not get taught everything you should know.. I mean it takes x100 hrs for an ATPL... and I am sure even those dont know everything..

[joelgarabedian]

Interesting question BPF,

We covered fuel regular FREDA checks (monitoring fuel and engine state), keeping carb heat on during the check, and keeping a record of when changing fuel tanks. In the event of a partial failure (or dangerous Ts and Ps), I was told to transmit a PAN and make a precautionary landing as soon as safely possible.

With respect to engine restart, I was taught (height permitting) after picking a landing site and setting up for the glide to set carb heat and fuel booster pump on, then work through the following items...

Check Ts and Ps
Check fuel selector and change tanks if required
Exercise mixture then fully rich
Exercise throttle
Check magnetos
Check master switch

However, I was taught to always assume these steps would fail! Is this usual for PPL training? I'm very aware that a PFL is exactly that - a practice. I did quite alot of armchair flying during my PPL to ensure that I could perform all of the procedures automatically. I still don't know what a real engine failure would be like, nor whether I'd be able to handle it. But I figure if I can do all of the stuff I know needs doing quickly, I'll have more time to concentrate on the stuff I don't :)

Joel.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I raised the point because how flying schools teach the engine failure/forced approach exercise is a bit of a personal pet peeve of mine. It is all about flying the forced approach manoever with usually very little on how to avoid the need to do a forced approach in the first place.

Looking at the accident statistics if you see a light aircraft sitting in a field with a dead engine the least likely cause would be if that aircraft had a properly maintained engine which had a normal run up, made full static RPM on takeoff, had lots of fuel with the fuel selector correctly positioned, showed normal cruise T & P's, and had no symptoms of carb ice.....suddenly completely stopped.

In fact the accidents stats show that at least 80% of all engine failures are directly caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot, with running out of fuel and allowing a fatal build up of carb ice the leading causes.

Even for engine failures caused by internal mechanical failure, in most cases the engine gave some prior warning with an abnormal runup, failure to deliver full power on takeoff, and/or abnormal engine gauge indications in flight.

When I teach the forced appraoch exercise I start with a lenghly discussion about the above factors and how to get a stopped engine running again. When we get to the actual procedures to fly the forced appraoch manoever I emphasize I am teaching this to pass the fligh test and as a real world exrecise to save their sorry ass after they were stupid enough to let the engine fail in the first place.

Rant over ..... sorry for the thread drift.

[Kiev23]

Thanks for the input guys/girls. yeah I fly from Blackpool so each landing is roughly £10.00. I was just curious to roughly know how much extra I will be spending doing touch and gos, but I guess it is all good practice, just hope my instructer doesnt make me fly around the circuit for the sake of it. I am estimating an extra £1000 in landing fees over the course of the PPL then.

[fuzzy6988]

I completed my PPL course with 122 landings (including touch and go's) and 48 hours.

I did mine out in Florida where landing+approach fees did not exist.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Sorry guys I can't resists. As an instructor I once sat through 58 touch and go's .....in one day......before lunch :yuk::{

[dash6]

Circuit bashing is pretty much the best exercise in aviation. Ten pounds a go is a bit strong though.Ask if your school can arrange a transit to somewhere cheaper to get a package of landings,and a change of scene! This is a frequent arrangement at other "rip -off"airfields. Training at a big airport is always a pain.Good luck and enjoy the experience.

[BackPacker]

Ask if your school can arrange a transit to somewhere cheaper to get a package of landings,and a change of scene!

Obviously a good idea BUT you can't put the responsibility for this solely with the school. Since the transit itself takes time too, this will normally mean that you either have to book a double lesson block, or you have to team up with another student and schedule your lesson blocks back to back. Otherwise time is simply too short.

And you need to consider that the transit itself is not free either. If you do a 20 minute/50 pound transit to save 5 pounds per T&G, you've got to do 10 T&Gs to make it worthwhile.