Pilot in Command authority and responsibility

[Pugachev Cobra]

Hello,

I've heard this in a while and I'd like your input.

If you could, would you like to reduce your authority (and attached responsibility) as it is conceived today?

Do you think PIC's have too much responsibility - given the amount of authority they have? Maybe more than they'd like to?

Because, aside from normal safety-related issues and aircraft procedures, there is a lot more weight on the PIC's shoulders.

Your thoughts on this?

Thanks.

[Checkboard]

... so I can reduce my responsibility and thus increase the risk to my own life? :confused:

Would I WANT to do this? :confused:

[Pugilistic Animus]

in the past the death rate of airmail pilots was 1/4 because they flew when the post office told them.... ice, IMC [w/o gyros], thunderstorms etc....was no excuse

the way they had to deal with ice was wait until the plane got to heavy. they would then crash land clean off the plane and takeoff--repeat as often as necessary :\

IMC: the procedure was to 'lock the controls as best you can", if you made it on top through as shallow overcast--fine!....if you went out of control--a spiral-- simply pull back on stick and kick rudder to get into a spin; recover upon visual contact:eek:

if you crashed or had a disabled plane, no problem! simply pick up the mail sacks and carry them to the railroad for delivery:uhoh:

the only difference is that they were paid well:ooh:

:}

[Always Moving]

The Cobra guy has a point!

If the companies would be liable for telling you that you HAVE TO GO. I am sure they will say it a lot less. Now they pressure you to go but they are not liable since "the final authority is the PIC"
I do not see a good solution to it, but he definitely has a point.

[411A]

Don't know what all the fuss is about.
In 43 years of professional flying, I have never felt any 'pressure' from any company, to accept or complete the flights assigned.
None whatsoever.
If I say 'NO', that is the end of discussion.

In my opinion, many pilots make a mountain out of a molehill regarding this so-called 'pressure' problem.

[nitpicker330]

I guess it depends on the Airline and the environment under which you are employed. Not to mention how good an association you have on your "six"

[Old Smokey]

411A, do I have your permission to cut and paste your post?

Don't know what all the fuss is about.
In 44 years of professional flying, I have never felt any 'pressure' from any company, to accept or complete the flights assigned.
None whatsoever.
If I say 'NO', that is the end of discussion.

In my opinion, many pilots make a mountain out of a molehill regarding this so-called 'pressure' problem.

(I changed your 43 to my 44, but I note from a post of yours a while ago that we both have about the same total flying time).

In my 44 years, there was a 2 year period when I was in the Flying Doctor where there COULD have been possible pressure, but wasn't. To repeat some of 411A's words - "If I said 'NO', that was the end of discussion.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[PappyJ]

In my 44 years, there was a 2 year period when I was in the Flying Doctor where there COULD have been possible pressure, but wasn't. To repeat some of 411A's words - "If I said 'NO', that was the end of discussion

You boys have 14 years on me, but at 30 years in this business I'm hoping that my opinion still counts for something. I also did the "Flying Doctor" thing, and agree that there could have been pressure. Fortunatly, during that 30 year period I can't recall a time when "No" didn't mean exactly that.

However, things are changing. I don't mean any disrespect, but the folks who really "Grew up" in this business are becoming fewer and fewer.

I've watched so many new arrivals into this game enter directly into large aircraft that some of the "older folk' waited decades to operate. How? Self-sponsered schemes which are financially beneficial to the airline, and only the airline. Albeit, the vast majority of these involved the low cost operators (Tiger's, Jetstar's, Easyjet's, Ryanair's, etc).

Back to the topic. When I was a young F/O, I sat next to captains who were typically in their late 50's; had experience up the whazoo; and knew their jobs so well that they could ACTUALLY explain it to our grandmothers so that they understood! Moreover, they had learned through the decades WHEN and HOW to say, "No". That knowledge was passed down to those of us who were privileged to have worked with these gentlemen.

I'm not convinced that the knowledge transfer exists today as it did then, since we now have 2000 hour self-sponsored captains, passing down their experience to 400 hour self-sponsered F/O's. Again, I don't mean to sound disrespectful or condescending, but where is the knowledge transfer coming from now?

Interestingly, it's also a double-edged sword. The recent incident at JFK, IMHO, demonstrates a blatant abuse of this "final authority" (based on the known details).


Just my nickels worth.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi,

The recent incident at JFK, IMHO, demonstrates a blatant abuse of this "final authority" (based on the known details).

Sorry I don't know anything about this incident - but surely after all the effort we've invested in CRM training over the years (Airmanship in the old days) - then all crew members should feel comfortable. If any crew member doesn't - then it means the other(s) has(have) probably missed something.

The only pressure I've ever faced is On Time Departure. If we make it - great - if not then a note on the journey log. We go when we are ready and not before.

[Doctor Cruces]

Captain's decision is like the editor's decision....final
Endex
Doc C

[muduckace]

Captain's decision is like the editor's decision....final
Endex
Doc C

The Decision may be final but the consequences may last for an indefinite period of time.

[johns7022]

On paper the captain/PIC authority is ultimate to the point where the FAA can hang a guy if he didn't check tire pressures personaly, check maitanance logs that that the mechanic said were up to date etc..

In reality very few peeps have the stones to go up against the boss, the company...etc ect...very few...find me a captain that says his word is 'God' and I will probably find more then a few instances where he 'sold out' to tow the company line etc. So while not trying to start a fight, I think it's getting deep in here, when it comes to all the 'captain's in here' telling the boss to take a hike...

In cases where I was told personaly by pilot's who said they were 'pushed' to fly, I found in just about all of them, the pilot was weak, and he was just being asked to do his job, but he wasn't up to task, so the weather, the situation, ect, was really beyond him, so his excuse..'It's dangerous and I won't do it'

Very seldom does a pilot with the ability to fly junk in bad weather, end up being pushed farther then his capability, because in seriousness, no one else at the company can exceed his ability, or wants to...so he ends up being the guy that flies a broken plane down to minimums, raw data ect...and no body complains, because he is exceeding thier expectations of what a pilot should do.

In my personal experience, coming into a flight department that was a mess...I had to deal with the fact that the company was used to loading up an aircraft overgross......of course the question that came back 'Well Mike did it'...put me in a situation where I had to tactfully explain that what I do, regardless of others, is going to be safe, but that everyone will get there one way or another...it took some time, some fights, some discussions, but if you want to put on the big boy pants, sit at the adult table for dinner, your gonna have to step up and take a stand, something very, very few people are will to do....

So in my 25 years of flying, I haven't met that pilot that is willing to walk in and tell the boss how it's gonna be...fortunately they are all here on the internet....on this forum....:mad:

[Pugachev Cobra]

Nice discussion going on here.

What I meant initially was that, if you think it would be good if some areas of responsibillity of the Captain/PIC were shared with the Operator, and not lie entirely with the PIC.

Legally, it doesn't matter how much pressure they've put you in, if something happens, it's all the Captain's fault.

And not just that, but i.e. responsibility of newborns on the flight, writing it down, making sure the proper authorities are notified, and all those other little details that aren't part of the operation of the aircraft.

Still I'm glad that some very experiencied ones gave their own contribution here.

[Admiral346]

Cobra,
I believe sharing responsibility is simply not possible. It is a good system that the one who wants to make money and the one executing the flight are not the same person. That fact alone increases safety ba far - look at airliner and corporate accident rates.
So the go-nogo decision is best left to the Captain (I would quit my job if it was taken from me).
Of course responsibility in technical matters is shared. Just look at the Spanair accident from last year, two Tecs are still under accusation. It just won't help the pilots anymore - again proof there is just no way of changing the existing system here. It is a logical AND descicion: The CPT AND the TEC who signs the release both have to agree on go for the flight to go ahead.
Then there are the legal matters you are refering to: newborns on the flight
Well, you could give that responsibility to somebody else, as it is a mere administrative task. But the fact that no police is on board (on a regular basis) empowers the CPT also with the police responsibilities and powers - maintaining order and law aboard, being able to arrest someone, decide to offload, ....
And this actually includes parts of the powers of a judge. Like arresting is a delegation of issuing an arrest warrant from a judge to the police. If danger is imminent or a crime obvious (it will say something similar in every decent countrie's law books) police is allowed to arrest first, then ask the judge the next day or so, but he/she will be asked to uphold arrest or dismiss the arrested.
In an airplane I could give up those responsibilities (and I do, whenever Air Marshalls are on board), but to do so on a regular basis would require police on board at all times. And an administrative clerk plus a navigator to record and fix the position of place of birth, in your example.
Quite impractical, I'd say. They didn't even do this on sail ships a hundred years ago.

And not regulating these matters would lead to a grey area legally, or a law-free zone on an aircraft. I sure wouldn't want to take that ride, neither as crew nor as passenger. An invitation to anarchy and chaos.

So for the physical removal of an aircraft from the ground to the air, where no authorities can be calles upon, all these powers and responsibilities shall be mine, and mine alone, until I delegate them, by my own will.

Nic