Aus Onshore: New contract is out

[FO4EVA]

Check your mail for new CX Aus COS 08 contract. Just reading now.......

edit: 22 days to sign.....nice :}

[nitpicker330]

yeah, rumour said 2 more weeks before it came out.

No wonder the Basings office didn't answer the phone today, they were a bit busy..........

I await the AOA response..........

[629bus]

How does it look boys? any adjustment to the pay scales? :}

[nitpicker330]

Log on to the AOA Forum and find out.

If you're not a member then.............

[Big Picture]

Yes I must say there have been some good points raised on the AOA site in regard to the onshore issue.

When will the AOA lawyers have their findings listed on the AOA site? I understand that they are using a firm that are experts in workplace litigation in Sydney.

To those few out there making employment contract decisions on your own, or basing those decision on what your other non AOA mates reckon...... good luck. I would imagine getting your own legal advice would be substantially more expensive than joining the AOA, but then again you are probably smarter than me!

Then again I guess you could just sign it, I mean shorely the company wouldn't stiff you!

:ugh:

[Free Flight]

Well, who would have thought that the company would place a timeline on us?

Negotiating 101 states that the first thing you do when the other team tries to impose a deadline is to ignore it - just don't even think of addressing this until negotiations have been completed.

Second trick is to bypass the negotiators and go straight to the employees with a vague implication that negotiations have been completed and this is the agreed result - it is blatantly obvious that this is NOT the case and we have been denied some of our protections.

MOST IMPORTANT

Do not sign anything! Consider that your payments to the Australian Tax Office are a subscription fee for the Australian protections and entitlements under law. You have paid for things like:
Long Service Leave
Enterprise Bargaining Agreements
Superfund contributions
Salary Sacrifice arrangements
etc

Would you sign up for a club and pay hefty fees and then be told that you don't get the benefits? No, nor would I.

Don't you just love the arrogance of our beloved company?

JUST DON'T SIGN.

[Captain Boers]

Commiseration to all our cousins in Aus from fellow recipients of the less than well greased baseball bat delivered via mail by our nineteenth century mill owners. :ugh:

I think you have been given the advice you require - now just do it!

Here upon these stones
We will build our barricade
In the heart of the city
We claim as our own!
Each man to his duty
And don't be afraid.
Wait! I will need a report
On the strength of the foe.


I can find out the truth
I know their ways
Fought their wars
Served my time
In the day
Of my youth.

Now the people will fight
With apologies to les Miserables

Back to the coffee shop

[Saturn]

They were told sign or you are fired? Will this not be the same? Again, COS08 was supposed to be for new hires and we all know that was a lie! So my question again is WHEN WILL IT STOP? Does the AOA keep whining about these issues but do nothing about them? Yes, simply DO NOT SIGN IT! But all the Aussies would have to to make it worthwhile. Personally, I do not think it is going to happen. Nothing against the Aussies or the Germans or Canadians but you will sign if you want to have a job or you/we all have to stand up and say NO MORE just like the FAU did.:ugh:

[GANKER]

The time has come to stick together now!
That includes the how do you say "older generation" as well as the new!
Integrity and a little backbone is all that is required!
Maybe that is asking a little to much , if history is anything to go by.
I personally signed up for SLS at the last hour due to the fact I couldnt find one person that wasnt and didnt want to be the only one not taking it. That was a mistake on my part looking back and I needed to have a little more of that backbone I was talking about.
This time I dont care if everyone signs this new contract for whatever reason they deem fit. I simply "WONT SIGN" I have had enough and really will probably be better off if they do fire me and I no longer have to deal with a company that is so lacking in respect for its employees that it makes those blood diamond workers look like a good job!
I have paid my AOA dues for well over a decade and will expect them to go to bat for me when that termination letter comes. Maybe again I am expecting to much. For those of you that sign enjoy that 2 crew through the night on lesser conditions and be sure and do lots of stretching in the cockpit as you near 60 yrs of age to ensure you live to 66! Then with all your money maybe you can get yourself a gold casket like Carl williams and go out like him as someone who sold their soul for money!

[SMOC]

Saturn please substitute AOA with Cathay Pilots

Why do the Cathay pilots keep whining about these issues but do nothing about them?

[Sqwak7700]

please substitute AOA with Cathay Pilots

Good point, but you do realize that the leadership has to point the group in that direction, right? That is why we elect a leader. Otherwise, why not just do away with the AOA president position.

I think the AOA is afraid to push things to the point were they ask everyone to take a stand. They are afraid that the membership will not follow. The problem is, without them taking a hard stance, we will continue falling every time we are pushed. It doesn't matter if some take a hard stance, without it coming from the top, it won't do much.

I did not take SLS and watched as 97% of my colleagues did. Even after all the winging that went on at the AOA meetings I attended, the membership was looking for the AOA to tell us not to take it - but they cowered away and capitulated to the company's demands. That made everyone feel that there was no-one behind them as they stood on the frontline.

[Rice power]

Ganker, 2 crew during the middle of the night is as a result of the new CAP 371 and the resultant new RP's. Crew members will be subject to them regardless of whether they are on COS 99 or COS 08.

But lets not let fact get in the way of a good rant !

Integrity , backbone and a dash of common sense is what is required. Those of you based in Aus and paying Aus tax are already subject to Aus employment protections, and a quick call to the local TWU office will confirm such. Should you freely give away your rights by signing, then all bets are off. Wait for further from your representatives and leave the emotive and misleading comments to those non members who are prone to do a little fishing to allay their fears.

[Slayed]

Time for some backbone. The Aus law is on our side, they are trying to get us to sign away our rights through intimidation.


In times like these, I read at take heart from this missive which I got from this website a few years ago. Paticularly relevant in the aftermath of CX




DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS!

How many boardrooms explode over Long Island Sound?
How many meetings conclude with hundreds of dead bodies?
How many buses cost $250 million dollars?
How many doctors spend half the month away from their families?
Do the children of media representatives cry when Daddy puts on his uniform to go to work because they know he'll be gone for a week?
How many salesmen lose their jobs because they have high blood pressure?
How many Lab technicians have to retire because their eyesight isn’t perfect?
When your wife is watching TV and the program is interrupted by a news flash of an aircraft accident, does she momentarily freeze in fear for what she might hear?

There is not another profession in the world where the consequences for mistakes are so catastrophic and unforgiving.

THE PRICE

I pay the price when somebody loads full oxygen containers in the cargo hold
I pay the price when a terrorist has a bone to pick
I pay the price when loaders forget to set the locks
I pay the price when engineers design a fuel pump not quite correctly and the aircraft explodes
I pay the price when Mother Nature decides to shift the winds and turn me over on my belly
I pay the price when my family splits because I am away so much
I pay the price when the technology goes wrong

YOU SPEAK OF THE COST

Ask the CEO of Value and the cost of a DC-9 buried in the Everglades..

The Cost …Ask Fred Smith the cost to scrape a DC-10 and MD-11 from the runways at Steward and Newark...
The Cost ...Ask Korean Airlines the cost of a 747 that didn't quite make the runway at Guam..
The Cost ...Ask Mandarin airlines the cost of a typhoon turning an MD11 upside down when it landed into Hong Kong
The Cost ...Ask Pan Am the cost when a bomb blew up a 747 over Lockerbie
The Cost ...Ask Fine Air the cost to clean up a DC-8 off a Miami Street
The Cost ...Ask Bob Crandall the cost of a B-757 impacting a Columbian mountain...

The Cost ...And if not for their Cool, Calm, Professionalism, what could have been the cost of a Cathay Pacific 747 with one engine alight plunging into the harbour. How much were they worth to you that night?

The Cost …What would have been the cost when the British Airways 747 full of passengers lost ALL 4 engines in volcanic ash over Indonesia. The chances of relighting those engines was ZERO yet the pilots got a few going and saved everyone – What were they worth to you that day? Still Glorified overpaid Bus Drivers?

WHEN YOU TRY TO INTIMIDATE ME, REMEMBER

It was I who sits alone at the tip of an F-18 in the silent instant before I am catapulted over a cold, dark sea, while you slept peacefully in your bed
It was I who, one night watched my wings grow heavy with ice, miles from the safety of the nearest airport praying that I had enough fuel to find clear skies, while you watched Saturday night football drinking your beer and wine
It was I who flew a C-130 into Panamanian gunfire, while you decorated your Christmas tree and went to church in 1989
It was I who faced head-on the fourth largest army in the world over the deserts of Iraq and brought it to its knees, while you watched it on CNN
It was I who landed an A-6 on a floating piece of tarmac no bigger than your backyard, while you mowed yours
It was I who orbited in unarmed tankers over enemy territory to replenish others sworn to protect you and your children
It was I who watched missiles and bullets blossom in my face, yet didn't turn and run, while you watched the flowers in your garden blossom
It was I who buried a friend
It is I who knows a little boy who will never play catch with his Dad, so that you may play with your grandchild

Sir, please don 't try to intimidate me I am not your enemy, I am your asset, an asset that has experienced and accomplished things few others dare to try. Realize this and there are few obstacles we can't overcome.

[PotBoiler]

well that has to be the biggest load of boll***s I have read in a long while - you forgot to talk about parting the seas and multiplying the loaves and fishes.... But you are right, most of the things you mention could have been prevented by paying the crews more money. It's a shame people don't give you more respect - you obviously think you deserve it.

[buggaluggs]

That's alright Nick, you can go now....

[the reo]

calm down
Let's just get it onshore first.
As far as I'm aware you can't actually sign away your legislated rights. (regardless of what the contract says)

[flyboy007]

Disagree,

We shouldn't be going for the aim to "just get it onshore first", and then fighting a rearguard action. We should press to test in the courts of Australia before hand and delay the signing date until it's resolved. I think there's a fairly high level of confidence that given we're deemed Australian employees etc for tax after last years court case, that we'd be protected now under Aus employment laws.

Personally I'd rather go on the attack now rather than play defence once we're onshore.

[Big Picture]

The constructive criticism of the companies "non legal" contract is on the AOA forum. There is some good guidance there.

For the record, I have argued with many of you but funily enough all my complaints have been removed??? who's running this site?

BP

[SMOC]

Sqwak,

I did not take SLS and watched as 97% of my colleagues did. Even after all the winging that went on at the AOA meetings I attended, the membership was looking for the AOA to tell us not to take it - but they cowered away and capitulated to the company's demands. That made everyone feel that there was no-one behind them as they stood on the frontline.

I too thought the GC should have recommended a 'NO', I can only imagine they were privy to more information than the membership or had a plan for the future.

[GANKER]

well if they did know more than us , for gods sake tell us! we arnt little children although management would disagree.
If the AOA give a whishy washy do what you think is right answer to this all, I am out. Whats the point? all the join and be a solid group is just smoke and mirrors if they actually dont stick up for crew when it counts.

[Numero Crunchero]

Hi guys/gals,
there will soon be an email from the union, or so I hear. It will be directed towards Aussie based pilots. Please act on it urgently.

They say the four most dangerous words in finance are "This time it's different". In Cathay it is "it can't get any worse"!

I think on another thread there are some comments on salaries in QF vs Australia. Well I know that when I joined I was on the same salary as a QF 747 CN. Now as an A scaler(CoS99) in HK I now earn the same as senior FOs in QF.

I have a friend that joined CX in 94, left in 95 to join QF. He now earns more than me and he is still an FO. Funny, if he had stayed here he would be a B scale CN, but on about 20-30% less money than he is on now in QF - and obviously he has labour protection, LSL, etc etc.

My friends in V australia are on about the same money as a based Aussie B scale CN. So much for us being 10% ahead of our peers!

[Sqwak7700]

I see your point Numero, but at the same time, it can't be that bad if so many CAs where willing to take a pay-cut and QOL reductions just to stay on longer (past 55).

[Veruka Salt]

I have a friend that joined CX in 94, left in 95 to join QF. He now earns more than me and he is still an FO

Yes, but to be fair Numero Crunchero, ask him what his NET pay is. Surely that is all that matters - how much of his pay he gets to keep.

Compare that with a HK based CX guy paying only 15% tax on a smaller salary, but getting housing allowance and education on top, and paying no tax on meal allowances (unlike the QF guy).

FWIW I've worked under both systems.

[nitpicker330]

My friends in V australia are on about the same money as a based Aussie B scale CN. So much for us being 10% ahead of our peers!

Almost.

V Oz Capt is on around $190K plus super 9%
B scale 1st year $209K plus 15.5% super

That is 10% ahead of V Oz!:}

But still way short of QF A330 Mainline pay.:=

[Liam Gallagher]

I just love it when guys spray CX salaries over the internet, particular when the only purpose is to indulge a passion for willie waving.

My accountant and lawyer always make their earnings public knowledge, that will be why their earnings have decreased markedly over the past 2 decades... oh hang on... :ugh:

[Rice power]

Nitwit330, "dumb is as dumb does"
try engaging brain before mouth

[nitpicker330]

Gee thanks mate.

Our complete pay scales have been on Pprune many times and me posting just one scale is nothing new, so get over yourself.:*

"life's like a box of Chocolates, you never know what you're gunna get"

Well in this case we do know what we're gunna get and it's about 10% more than V Oz.:uhoh: and what's worse about 20% less than QF :*

[Virtual Reality]

I am not trying to side anyone here but as far as pilot's salary is concerned, it has been published in another public forum and it is no longer a big secret.

Try this:-

Singapore Airlines Pilots Salary (http://www.askcaptainlim.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=307:singapore-airlines-pilots-salary&catid=33:salary&Itemid=78)

Emirates Airlines (http://www.askcaptainlim.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=298:emirates-airlines&catid=33:salary&Itemid=78)

Unfortunately, you may search for pay scales of any other major airlines in that forum too - inclusive CX......:ugh:

It may not be accurate but close enough ...........:{


VR :cool:

[Rice power]

When you can explain to me why my renumeration is the public's business then perhaps I may come around to your self appointed moral crusade for truth on this forum.
Until then, I will continue to be vocal in my opposition.

It also can be argued that the chance of a payrise has been diminished as a result of your broadcasting how well we compare to others.
Self defeating perhaps?

VR, the fact that the material is available elsewhere doesn't make it right and I hold the authors of those websites in contempt.

If the traveling public knew of some of the stupidity that inhabits forward of the flight deck door they would catch the !#$%^& train !

[nitpicker330]

it also can be argued that the chance of a payrise has been diminished as a result of your broadcasting how well we compare to others.
Self defeating perhaps?


Are you serious? Do you think public opinion effects this?

funny.....

[Rice power]

Public opinion has no bearing on our renumeration (hence they have no right to the info) however those inhabiting upper floors and read this forum to garner the feel of the "electorate" certainly do have a bearing.

funny ?
Perhaps moronic is more appropriate.

[PotBoiler]

Unfortunately, making the salaries public certainly does have an effect - not with the general public but with the non-flight crew airline staff (general management and workers alike). Particularly true in an airline like CX which already has a very wide range of T&C from local to expat. The animosity is most noticeable in situations where locals directly support the operations of and interface with the expat flight crew....and there certainly is animosity

[Captain Dart]

I would be curious to know what the passengers involved in the recent CX A330 emergency landing think of their pilots' salaries.

And as far as Captain Dart is concerned, those members of the public who think that airline pilots earn too much can learn to fly them-f&%#ing-selves and offer to work for less.

[nitpicker330]

To quote that famous Movie the Castle.

"Tell him he's dreaming"

Our esteemed Managers that make the decisions up on the 10th floor know exactly what all Airlines pay their Pilot's. They don't give a toss what Jo public think and they never will.

The other CX staff also know full well what my pay is, it's not exactly a state secret...... I'm not ashamed of my income and I don't rub it in their face.
If they want my COS then there is nothing stopping them from applying to become a Pilot.

Like Dart says. those members of the public who think that airline pilots earn too much can learn to fly them-f&%#ing-selves and offer to work for less.

[flyboy007]

"If the traveling public knew of some of the stupidity that inhabits forward of the flight deck door they would catch the !#$%^& train !

They'd have a difficult time catching a train to HK from where I live!

[Liam Gallagher]

I was taught that to discuss what one earns in public (like on the internet) is rude and vulgar. It is also unwise.

Nitpicker; it has nothing to do with keeping information from managers and fellow employees, but everything to do repecting my privacy. Whilst I appreciate this information is readily available on the internet, there are many things on the internet that are inappropriate, but that does not excuse reposting such information.

Whether we like it or not the travelling public do consider us public servants and feel they have a say in what we earn. Indeed, airlines market themselves as "low cost" which translates in the public's minds as "fly with us as you get better value". Can you imagine Doctors, Lawyers and Accountants marketing themselves as "low cost".

I see the new UK government is proposing a "Banker Tax", do you think that would have come about had the scale of what Bankers' earn had remained private.

I believe what I get paid is private information. Whilst I accept that others have breached my privacy it does not excuse further and continued breaches. If you really feel the need to ignore the wishes of myself and others, so you can score some internet browny points over some anonymous poster on the internet, I suggest you do it by PM.

Like I said, next time you go to a Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant, shake his hand and ask "How much do you earn?".... see how far you get....

[Flap10]

Whether we like it or not the travelling public do consider us public servants and feel they have a say in what we earn. Indeed, airlines market themselves as "low cost" which translates in the public's minds as "fly with us as you get better value".

Liam that has to be the stupidest comment you have ever made.

[Grivation]

Sorry to bring some sense into this argument but if you look at the front page of the Fairwork.gov.au site you can search every award, EA and EBA that is registered under both the new and old framework.

[Liam Gallagher]

Flap 10........ not saying it is right, but have you never read an article or had a conversation with someone who clearly believes you are overpaid.... why should they care, unless they feel (wrongly) that they should have some input.

Grivation. Says it all really. Minimum wage, Pilots pay, all publicly debated and heading towards the same number I suspect.

[747-8]

Liam I normally agree with what you have to say but you've lost me with this stuff. Supply and demand are the only factors which affect salary in most industries and are certainly the only factors which affect our salary/remuneration - hence the A scale and huge housing and other benefits which were needed in the 1980's to attract us. Things have now changed hence the downward pressure since the mid 1990's. Sure governments can intervene but normally only to raise the lowest (minimum wage) and cap the highest (bankers bonuses) and then only if public opinion demands it - and there's not the remotest chance the two would ever meet as you suggest.

[SloppyJoe]

Ok a simplified way of looking at things but why not get the union to do something productive and advise no one to take an AUS base who wants one but is stuck in HKG and everyone in Australia on a base say they want to come back to HKG rather than agree to the new contract. This would cost the company about HK$60,000 per month extra per pilot who came to HKG. I think that as the guys wanting the AUS base who can not get one would understand the situation and refrain from taking the empty slots. I have a feeling that this may cause a better solution.

[Liam Gallagher]

I cannot see how you read into my posts that respecting someone's privacy or not attracting attention to yourself (or your earnings) supercedes "Supply and Demand" when determining salaries is beyond me.

That said, S+D is not the only factor in salary pricing, for if it were all pilots would be paid the same and indeed, all CX pilots would be paid the same. We exist in an imperfect market. One factor (of many) that causes an imperfect market is the flow of information....

What I am referring is what the popular press call "tall poppy syndrome". Before the press gave it a name, not talking about one's earnings was called manners or "class". I think it is called "wisedom".