Approach Charts

[Ciao ci]

Hy everybody...
I 've a big trouble...and i'd like to have an answer about this from every pilots and air traffic controllers too...
Here you have an arrival route and ILS approach chart RWY 36 in LIML.
Milano Linate airport.
The question is:
if ATC clears you :
Cleared to DIXER via AMOXY 2 H descend 6000ft on QNH cleared ILS approach RWY 36
What are you going to do after DIXER?
And if you are coming from a different fix not along the STAR
and the ATC clears you:
Cleared To DIXER descend 6000ft on QNH cleared ILS approach RWY 36
What are you going to do after DIXER?

http://www.vatita.net/download/planning/files/LIML_star36.pdf
http://www.vatita.net/download/planning/files/LIML_ils.pdf
Thanks everybody

[FlightDetent]

Ciao,

Looking at the charts you provided and both LIDO and Jeppesen, my interpretation is that after DIXER a descent to 3000 and then down the glide-slope is possible, obstacle wise.

My experience is that ATC units may have different procedures:
a) they give you the lowest cleared altitude (3000 ft) and it the pilot's responsibility to observe any step down fixes (such as DIXER above 6000);
b) they give you a step down fix alt (6000) and you are not allowed lower until specifically instructed to do so (such as descent 6000 ft, after DIXER cleared ILS approach, descend 3000 ft)
c) they give you initial descent and approach clearance, but do not issue any subsequent altitudes you need but expect you to descent according to procedure (such as the scenario you describe) - some may actively refuse to provide any lower altitudes.

It is important to understand, that in general ATC's responsible for separation from other traffic (or underlying airspace) and not terrain which is up to pilots. But if you are safe from terrain, there still may be traffic!

My solution to your dilemma (both alternatives) would be to descend 6000 towards DIXEN, carefully check that after DIXEN 3000 is a safe altitude according to procedure, and then request descent to 3000. If ATC would not be willing to approve the altitude (such as repeating "Cleared ILS APCH" again and again) I would clearly and loudly inform them we are descending to 3000 and then do so.

This is based on the fact, that I am not certain which of a), b), and c) above applies. On some different airports / countries, my solution may be different, perhaps requiring less R/T time.

Yours,
FD (the un-real)

[Intruder]

In either case it is very clear that you cross DIXER at or above 6000' and then descend to 3000' until reaching GS intercept at approx 8.5 DME (I-LNT). The minimum crossing altitude is 3000' at 12.5 DME, so I would plan the descent to be at 3000' no earlier that that. If you have VNAV, program it to do that; otherwise use V/S.

You COULD use GS guidance to descend from DIXER, but in that case you would stay at 6000' until approx 18 DME, and hope the GS was stable that far out.

[Piltdown Man]

I'd follow Intruder's suggestion. Aim to be 6,000' at DIXER. Now select 3,000' ALT and start a V/S descent with a sensible speed (how about 180?). If you want to be neat, remember a one minute hold will take about 4 minutes to complete and you have to lose 3,000. So a ROD of 750 fpm or so would be required. When inbound DIXER again, arm the approach mode. But be warned, you'll have to make sure you are beneath the glide otherwise you'll just be sitting there are 3,000' wondering why you are not going down (How do I know about things like this?). Configure as appropriate throughout the procedure.

PM

[FlightDetent]

Aim to be 6,000' at DIXER. Now select 3,000' ALT and start a V/S descent with a sensible speed (how about 180?). If you want to be neat, remember a one minute hold will take about 4 minutes to complete and you have to lose 3,000. So a ROD of 750 fpm or so would be required. When inbound DIXER again,

Wow - do you really suggest to descend in DIXER hold from 6 to 3000 ? That would be rather brave, father. :} Alas, why hold at all?

Ciao, I came out too complicated. The procedure in both cases allows for descent to 3000 once past DIXER. Just make sure, that is what the ATC inteded you to do, very sure. BTW, let us know what type of aircraft you chose?

Sincerely,
FD (the un-real)

[Intruder]

Wow - do you really suggest to descend in DIXER hold from 6 to 3000 ?
I hope not! Min altitude in holding at DIXER is 6000' because of the hills to the south!

[Bullethead]

The way I see it DIXER is at 23D LIN which if you were there at 6000' you would be under the glideslope so why not just fly level at 6000' until you intercept it and then follow it down. In fact why not intercept the glideslope even further out and not fly level at all.

Happy to be corrected if needs be.

Regards,
BH.

[Intruder]

GS may not be reliable that far out. If it is, then use it as a cross-reference for the descent.

[ehwatezedoing]

Alternatively, after DIXER and inside the 25 miles you can descent to your minimum sector altitude (4300') and maintain it until you catch the glide slope.
But that is not what your approach plate is saying.

The way I read it: After DIXER and on the final track, leave 6000' for 3000' until D12.5 and then 3000' for 2500' until glide slope interception...
That's all.

(6000' being your transition altitude)

[PENKO]

Since there is no information what to do after DIXER, he ONLY option is to ask ATC for vectors or further instructions.

Yeah you can intercept the GS from 6000, but how do you know you can follow the GS uninterruptedly from 6000 feet? It does not say so on the charts you give us. If there was a procedure from DIXER, it would have been depicted on the chart. Now all we see on the chart is a logo for VATITA!

Same, although more elegant, is the descent to the MSA, but still...that leaves a blank spot between 4300 MSA and the platform of 3000 feet.

So, lacking crucial information, ask vectors, or a published procedure.

[Piltdown Man]

The minimum altitude in the racetrack is 2,500'. You have been cleared for the ILS, so you go to DIXER at 6,000', Once in the hold, descend to the platform of 3,000' as per the chart.

PM

[PENKO]

Piltdown man, where do you see a minimum hold on that chart of 2500 feet?
All I see is 6000. The racetrack is NOT the DIXER hold.

[gatbusdriver]

I agree with PENKO, can't see where it says you can descend to 2500'at dixer.

Had a look at our jepp plates. VOG to 13.0d VOG is given as by ATC. There is then a turn to intercept the LOC to dixer. There are no alts published apart from after dixer, where 3000' is safe.

From dixer you still have 13 miles before the top of drop (dixer is 23.0d LIN and TOD is 10.0d LIN (8.5 on ILS dme)). MSA to the south is 4300' within 25d LIN.

I would personally arrive at dixer at 6000' at a sensible speed and config., then descend using V/S to put me at 3000 by 10d LIN (having confirmed what sounds like a very ambiguous clearance)

[Ciao ci]

Over DIXER the holding minima is 6000Ft(that means u can't descent below in DIXER holding pattern)
the RADAR MINIMA is 5000Ft...(but U can't know from charts)
2500 Ft is the minima over LIN LO(NDB) is another procedures for the same ILS
I'm an air traffic controller and i work in Milan...i'm also a pilot....
few weeks ago...i used to give this different clearance to pilots
CLEARED TO DIXER DESCENT 6000Ft ON QNH XXXX CLEARED ILS 36
instead of the most common used by all my colleagues:
CROSS DIXER 5000Ft OR ABOVE DESCENT 3000Ft QNH XXX CLEARED ILS 36

so now...the question is:
may i clear pilots at 6000 ft and ils without tell them to descent 3000?

Most of italian pilots looking at the charts....they told me YES
but i can't understand why....when they r in flight...
they ask me to confirm that they can descent 3000ft and follow the ILS!!!!
Thank everybody

[Piltdown Man]

I didn't say that 2,500' is minimum in the hold. 2,500' is the minimum for the racetrack. But I will still stick with what I said earlier. From 6,000' at DIXER, descend to 3,000' following the pattern of the hold. If it pleases you, don't call it a hold. Just follow the line. Look at the plate again and you'll see that you are permitted to be at 3,000 at approx. 12.5d I-LNT. Just for info., the highest relevant object is depicted as 1,529' to the west of the final approach track.

PM

[Ciao ci]

gatbusdriver
Why u said ambiguous clearance?
Check on the chart....and suppose that i give u:
Cleared to COD descent 5000ft on qnh.... cleared ILS 36....
i think....its not ambiguous that after COD u descent 3000ft and u follow the ILS....
so....why from DIXER is so difficult to understand that u can descent 3000ft according the procedure....
PM....
u r right...from the chart u can't know that over LIN LO...there is also an holding....
ty....