Failing IR first series = never becoming a professional pilot [Archive]

Halfwayback

29th Apr 2010, 13:37

We all have what the doctors call the white coat syndrome and when we are being examined, medically or otherwise, we tend to get wound up. It is then we make mistakes. With good training and by thinking ahead of the game, it is much less likely that you will make them in the real world

I failed my first commercial IR by not correctly using the alternate procedure at Jersey. I re-took it almost immediately and passed. I have been with the same major UK carrier for almost 20 years and have more than 12k hours.

A prospective employer only looks at your licence and if you have a type and a current IR then that is all they are interested in. They will only know you failed your first IR if you tell them and I'm sure you would not wish to do that. I really is inconsequential in the run of things.

I suggest you pick yourself up, save a bit more and when you feel ready have another go but don't leave it too long because you obviously thought you were ready now.

Good luck with the retake!

HWB

lilflyboy262

29th Apr 2010, 14:04

Please go and find some brass nuckles and punch whoever put that thought into your head, in the face.

If your really struggling with your IR, get your hands on a version of flight sim. Preferably version x, then practice your butt off with that.

You said yourself that it was just some stupid mistakes, not huge errors.

Also IFR is not a huge part of flying, unless you are expecting airline jobs straight away, most of your first jobs around the world are single engine piston VFR anyway.
Don't let it get you down!

I failed my PPL first shot and didn't chuck it in then! Nailed the CPL and IFR first go later.

hollingworthp

29th Apr 2010, 17:53

I failed my first IR after getting my kecks in a twist over not getting Standard within minutes of my departure. I should have rescued a partial from it but couldn't get it out of my mind and then porked up the single engine go-around by being so pre-occupied with it.

Fortunately that all happened in the first 25 mins or so, so the examiner took control and flew back which saved quite some time/money.

Got my s**t together and had no worries on the 2nd shot.

covec

29th Apr 2010, 18:29

The best pilots learn from their mistakes.

The experience will make you a better person.

And that is all it is, mate, an experience! Keep going.

paco

29th Apr 2010, 18:38

"Load of tosh. I know several professional pilots who partialed/failed their IR"

Including the one from the Queen's Flight!

Phil

flyboy1818

29th Apr 2010, 22:17

Thanks for the responses everyone, its a hard blow to take but the show must go on. I think most people who get through the flight training system and pass everything first time are either extremley lucky or very talented. I know I'm capable, so fingers crossed for next time!

G SXTY

29th Apr 2010, 22:34

I'd go for lucky. It's so easy to partial or fail the CPL and IR, and there are so many ways of doing so, that I don't think anyone gets a first time pass without some degree of luck. I speak as someone who partialled the CPL (thanks to examitis I couldn't manage timed turns) and somehow squeaked a first time pass in the IR, despite my best efforts to throw it away. A friend also managed a first time IR pass even though he descended a long, long way on 1013 when cleared to an altitude. He spotted it just before the level off, and was fortunate that it was a high QNH. On another day that would have been an alt bust and a partial . . .

Everyone who has been through it knows what a lottery it is, and remember that your CFI wouldn't have signed off the 190A if he didn't think you were capable of passing the test.

Best of luck next time!

wheelbrace

30th Apr 2010, 00:37

Its alot of money to retake an IR flight test and I'm having nightmares about failing this again!

Just think about what you have spent getting to this stage! Keep going and give the nay sayers the bird.

Best of luck with the retake. My thoughts are with you. By the by, I still have the nightmares despite having passed...

By the way, G SXTY, the national lottery has better odds.

flyhelico

30th Apr 2010, 03:31

I was going to fail mine on the NDB approach. by chance I used lot of drift to correct my path before reaching the descent point, if not I would have been over the 5 degrees(lateral deviation) authorized and he would have bust me!

I think in this case I would have go missed and told to the examiner I screwed up my approach and that's my right!I try again!

as you can see, you are the one who decide if you will pass or not.
during this day, I have decided I would be the pilot in command...and I would do everything to be safe.

To get a first time pass, even if you are bad(like me:p )...accept you are not good(who is good anyway?when stressed), and correct your mistakes.Don't do like if he was not going to see them...( shoot!!!, my altitude, I correct..., any ice?)

this is what the examiner want see.don't bull**** him...don't insist, just fight fight fight!!( fight with you plane!).

there is nothing really hard. Just fly the plane and be consistent iin what you do, and plan ahead.

Don't do like a guy I know when his DH was 1200, he said "DH, I look outside", and in fact, this idiot was at 2200 ft.

the examiner told him are you sure? the guy didn't know anymore.Com'on, read the altimeter like" 2200ft, descending for 1200ft, 2000 ft descending for 1200..."(and it takes up to 2-3 minutes for the descent from the FAF, if you are at the DH after 30 seconds( only 250ft at 500ft/min)...mmmh, something wrong no???)

He was busted...(if you can not read an altimeter and descent to the correct altitude, it would be good to do something else in your life, why not work for the CAA?)

whats about the guy who turn in the wrong direction in the holding???and try to hide it!!!

I think many guys fail their IR because they are not in the proper state of mind.
I think the chief instructor pilot should brief pilots before passing the test.
I think they way of teaching in England is wrong!(the know it, so they can get more money from you;)). When I pass my ttest, my mind was set FAA and not JAA.

Why do you think pilots in the USA have a better pass rate(90%)?, not because they are better, because they accept they have no experience and they don't mind to go miss.And they don't f...up with 1-2 degrees in the hold...they think to turn in the right direction, more important than counting the 1-2 seconds on your watch.

failing an IR is not a big issue, crashing yes...

clanger32

30th Apr 2010, 11:45

I was on the same course as HollingworthP (who by the way, is the worst blogger on the planet....but I digress!).

I was by no means the most talented pilot on our course, but I somehow managed to walk away with a first time pass, where I'd actually thought I'd get a punch in the face, I thought I'd flown so badly.

The point I'd make is that it IS a lottery. Personally I think the IR is more about how well you can hold your nerve than how good a pilot you are, but you still have to pass.

Your career is definitely not screwed by a lack of first series IR pass....if you get to the tenth series and you still haven't passed, I might take a different view, but give employers some credit...everyone here has recounted how the IR is bloody tough...employers know that and they WILL give you some flex for having a bad day at the office.

and by the way, even the very best fail or partial the IR you know....the guy on our course who told me that "I shouldn't compare myself to the stella pilots like me" managed to partial, despite according to him flying perfectly apart from messing his SE go around up....So it must be true. A stella pilot told me so :}

philc1983

30th Apr 2010, 12:30

Flyboy,

Honestly you will be fine. You've said it yourself you made little mistakes. It only takes 2 and you are done, so don't worry too much.

Show your fighting spirit and captaincy potential by coming back with renewed vigour for the retest and passing it outright. That shows much more character.

The very best of luck to you.

Flyhelico,

How on earth can you comment on the UK IR if you haven't taken it? It is widely recognised that it is far tougher than the FAA one so your argument has no basis. Do your research before making such outrageous claims.

sapperkenno

30th Apr 2010, 17:16

@philc1983

How on earth can you comment on the UK IR if you haven't taken it? It is widely recognised that it is far tougher than the FAA one so your argument has no basis.

Have you taken the FAA Instrument Rating?

I've also heard people say that the FAA one isn't as hard... I'd just like to know why you think that is? In what ways is the JAA one tougher? Are we talking tolerances for accuracy with altitudes/headings etc, questions asked during the test!?

I've done the FAA one, and am also an FAA Flight Instructor (and Flight Instructor Instrument) but can't comment on the JAA IR as I haven't done it.

I have, however, discussed the nuances between the FAA/JAA ratings with two of my friends here who have done/are doing their IR's here in the UK.

I would say using a "Hood" instead of screens, could be seen as easier... and possibly that the way in which I took my FAA IR in a single at first, then did my Commercial, then did another test for my Commercial Multi-Engine (with Instrument) might simplify things. Long story short, most of the "airwork" and cross-country stuff is done in the single, including numerous approaches, holding and partial panel... then when you take the Multi-IR, you need not cover everything providing you meet the test standards, as you already have an Instrument Rating (albeit a single engine one)... so basically, a simplified IR flight test in the twin covering OEI approaches (and missed app's) and partial panel again, but not the entire test as previously done in the single.

Hope that makes sense!? You can still do the whole hog straight in the twin (like the UK IR), but many people do things the way I did (single IR, CPL, multi IR). One thing I will say is that I did it all in proper aeroplanes (Warriors, Arrows, Aztec) but don't know whether that's necessarily tougher, and the FAA do allow some instrument sim-hours (only 20) towards the requirements.

NDB's are pretty much defunct out in the States, and they were only covered in the oral (SHOCK!!! :eek: ) in my case, but GPS approaches were flown in their place (both "pure" GPS approaches, and "overlays" used for NDB procedures) instead.

So... as far as I'm aware, tougher points for JAA may be seen as;
1) IMC screens used, not hoods/foggles
2) ADF makes up a huge part of the test
3) Cost
4) More simulated/actual instrument hours required
...and aside from the flying portion...
5) Written exams.
...and that's me out of ideas. If you can add to that list with why an ICAO instrument rating taken in the UK far exceeds one done in the States with it's toughness, then I'd appreciate it. I wouldn't say tougher... just different.

A330ETOPS

30th Apr 2010, 17:36

All bollocks mate. I've got friends that trained with me on an integrated course in Jerez who have 3rd series IR's (I got 1st and still no job!) and are flying now with the likes of RYR & TCX. Hardly any airlines will even ask you this on an application or interview. If you've got a licence, you can do the job. Don't let it put you down. It's not the end of the world at all

philc1983

30th Apr 2010, 18:10

With all due respect I never actually said that the UK IR was more difficult and I certainly did not want this thread to descend into a slanging match between FAA and JAA licences, which is better.

I simply wanted clarification for the claim that FAA IR was more difficult than the test sat in the UK, and that the teaching of JAA IR was poorer than that of the States.

Your points listed however may answer the question.

Jumbo744

30th Apr 2010, 19:05

Flyboy,

don't worry mate. My favourite quote is the one from Robert Kiyosaki:

The size of your success is measured by the strength of your desire; the size of your dream; and how you handle disappointment along the way.

Right now you may feel totally depressed, and feel like a loser, but you're not. Just let a few days pass, do whatever you got to do to build yourself up and go try again the flight test. You'll be 100 times more motivated to pass!

Your career is clearly not jeopardized!!

Best of luck and don't worry :ok:

shaun ryder

30th Apr 2010, 19:52

Clanger, I bet you had no idea that that was me mate!
:ok:
Hows the job hunting?
Keep the faith.

hollingworthp

1st May 2010, 06:19

Shaun,

Unfortunately you would pale into dim insignificance in the supernova-like radiance of the pint-sized little fellow Clanger is referring to.

Still, awesome skills or no, didn't stop daddy having to fund a tasty P2F TR + Line Training package for the wee guy.

xuejiesandi

1st May 2010, 07:38

Its okay mate...

Nothing, I repeat nothing prevents you from realizing your dreams...every one who passes or everyone who flunks are human enough to become a pilots...

& If truth comes out, everyone here has failed one thing or another...all in your hand is to try again...so do all you can...if not then again do all you can...

Adios

1st May 2010, 21:23

I know two pilots that were 3rd series IRs and both got the first job they interviewed for and neither waited more than six months from completion. The market was much stronger then than it is today, but your result is nowhere near theirs. Make an effigy of the person who told you this is the end of your career hopes (I'd never advocate harm to the actual idiot!), take it to a wall and :ugh:

flyboy1818

5th Jun 2010, 17:55

Shamefully, I failed my second series IR flight test, really not good news.

I can't believe this has happened to me, I have worked so hard to get this far and it just seems impossible right now.

I'm starting to wonder if I should change flight schools. The school I am at is very new to instrument rating training and loads of people are failing flight tests at the moment, its all very worrying. It also seems that some of the senior instructors at the flight school have had disagreements with examiners at the CAA flight test centre in the past and this is causing tension on test.

I was given a 5 minute one way interview by my last examiner on test whilst taxing the aircraft back to the test centre about the flight school I am at and how they are not as good as a well known integrated outfit.

I have spoken to another school which flys the same aircraft type and they say that they are happy to take me on. Thankfully they use a different test centre and theres not too many routes to learn. Has anyone had experience of changing flight schools under similar circumstances?

I'm not used to failure and I always find a way to suceed, I'm generally very sucessful in all walks of life and failure in this instance is something which I'm not prepared to accept.

hollingworthp

5th Jun 2010, 18:03

Flyboy1818 - chin up!

Hopefully you got some constructive feedback from both IR's that allow you to concentrate on those areas during the AT and to put it all behind you on the third pop.

Sounds like a new school might not be a bad plan?

mad_jock

5th Jun 2010, 18:16

which sections did you fail on?

flyboy1818

5th Jun 2010, 18:23

engine failure, followed by shooting into a danger zone, canned it in five minutes, gutted!

mad_jock

5th Jun 2010, 19:04

At least you did it in style. None this level busting nonsense.

I agree that a change and school and possibly airport might be in order.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V8rZWw9HE7o&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V8rZWw9HE7o&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Sorry couldn't help myself. Have a laugh, have a beer and get back into the cockpit and get it sorted.

fly_antonov

5th Jun 2010, 21:40

I would be more comfortable boarding an aircraft with you than with the pilots who did not do the walk around on my second last airline flight.
I know it because I am a voyeur :} I was watching the whole 25 minutes of the B737-800' s rotation (guess what airline!).

3 days later I saw said airline doing push-back and engine start-up without the push-back crew plugged in (the microphone of the PBC was not working). Instead of getting a new headset, the PBC and flight crew, in an effort to win minutes to avoid getting a delay on themselves, agreed to work with hand-signs and clearly compromised the safety of the equipment, the trucker and the passengers.

Don' t bug yourself. If you are alive, healthy and all, that is the most important. After that comes the money and the career.
Career... I think that that is the issue with you.
Lower your expectations about what' s waiting for you after your training, that will relieve you from unnecessary pressure and help you do well through your training.
Convince yourself that you are passing an exam to become just another bus driver who can be happy if he could be consumed by the airline with the round-breasted female angel painted on its tails (angels are supposed to be asexual) under the motto: "Ignorance is flying".

Cheer up with this:

http://www.ihateryanair.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/ryanair-logo.jpg

from Ryanair announce new logo to better reflect company values | I Hate Ryanair (http://www.ihateryanair.co.uk/ryanair-announce-new-logo-to-better-reflect-company-values/)

flyboy1818

6th Jun 2010, 10:56

Well I have decided to stay with my current flight school, I have changed instructors and they seem to have a good plan to get me through. Changing school would have involved learning new routes and an 80 mile drive in busy traffic, probably not the best ideal.

I was at a large social gathering last night and I realised that I have to do this and I can't give up, so many of my friends (all non pilots) asking about my progress and how its going.

Dangerzone, yes very funny and oh how does Ryanair end up in every thread? Its not like I can afford to work for them anyway! I will be looking at something a little different to that!

Celtic Pilot

6th Jun 2010, 11:56

my home airport has used hand signals for years (mainly ryanair) and have had never had any problems rergarding safety.... is wrong to say hand signals compromise safety.... (as long as everyone knows the hand signals which they should at least have an idea)...

John smith is right.

mad_jock

6th Jun 2010, 12:02

And in quite alot of Country's using English on the headset will cause more confusion than sticking a finger in the air and twirling a finger.

flyboy1818

6th Jun 2010, 12:19

I have to agree as a retired apron marshaller! I was required to use handsignals if a thunderstorm warning was active by the Airport I worked for! Is a headset safer? The jury is out on that one, harder to run away when your connected to the aircraft!

However yelling STOP STOP STOP, down the headset never fails to work as the crew attempt to taxi off with you and the pushback still connected!

Torque Tonight

6th Jun 2010, 13:54

how does Ryanair end up in every thread?

A lot of people are having a tough time trying to break into the airlines in the current climate. For some of them, blaming Ryanair for their own situation, the world recession and anything else you care to throw in, makes them feel a little better about themselves. It's normally the same old people who never fail to get a dig in about Ryanair. Which flows nicely into...

I too have to echo the chorus. 'fly_antonov', I thought you were more intelligent than that. What absolute rubbish. Hand signals are entirely standard and safe. Why would every aviation authority, airline, air force etc use them if they endangered the safety of the passengers. You let yourself down with such an obviously stupid comment. I guess you think that the hand signals are improvised like a woman trying to help her friend park her car at the supermarket.

As for your other comment about some mystery airline: I'm not saying you're lying but I would be very surprised if what you said is correct. Every crew knows that they would probably be sacked if they deviated so far from company SOPs, and spies are everywhere.

Back on thread, try to keep calm. Do everything you can to prepare in advance. Familiarise yourself with likely test routes, know your checklists, RT etc inside out. Get 10 hours sleep the night before. Go in to the test rested, calm, fit, confident and prepared. You'll be less worried and less likely to make silly little mistakes that dent your confidence and raise your stress levels. For example, I was filling in flight plan forms as far as I could the day before the test. Every minute you can save on the test day wil make your life easier. Make it as easy as possible for yourself and don't go in with a worried mindset, that's going to pressurise yourself and stress yourself out. Easier said than done, especially in your situation but very important. Good luck.

fly_antonov

6th Jun 2010, 17:33

Some of you want to know the details of the P/B story. Let's see if you are cool after knowing the details:

1. The person, alias Mickey Mouse who was in charge of the communication did not use standard signs as he or she was not familiar with them.

2. Mickey Mouse failed to check that the flightcrew had the brakes released.

3. Micky Mouse failed to check and confirm to the flight crew that the steering bypass pin was installed.

4. Mickey Mouse failed to ascertain the flight crew that the chokes were removed and they were removed sideways so the flightcrew could not possibly have known that they were.

5. Mickey Mouse did not clearly show the cockpit when he or she showed the removed steering bypass pin after P/B. MM just walked away without looking back and raised the pin in the air for 2 seconds.

MM was not adequatly trained to work without the headset and lacked competence in her work. Flightcrew should have noticed and asked for another P/B crew as another aircraft was doing a rotation not far away.
Deviation from procedures causes accidents.

All decent airlines in Europe work with verbal communication because it is the only way to communicate decently when something does happen.
How do you communicate to the flightcrew that an engine/aircraft section is on fire with hand signs? How do you ask permission from flight crew to extinguish a fire at the exhaust pipe with your hand? By sticking it in your ***?

As for your other comment about some mystery airline: I'm not saying you're lying but I would be very surprised if what you said is correct. Every crew knows that they would probably be sacked if they deviated so far from company SOPs, and spies are everywhere.

Should I add more?
During boarding of said flight, a passenger walked slowly through the inner side of the ill-positioned perimeter under the wing, as close as 2 meters from engine 1, to the back stairs. This seems to happen very often as I saw the same happening at the flight that departed just before mine. There the cabin crew did motion the passengers to move around the perimeter but that was not the case on my flight. There was no one to monitor the safe boarding of the passengers.

Notice these are 3 cases of bad apron management on the last 3 rotations that I had followed closely. Not all are the airline' s fault but keep going like this and something will happen.

Torque Tonight

6th Jun 2010, 20:24

How do you communicate to the flightcrew that an engine/aircraft section is on fire with hand signs?

JS beat me too it, but as soon as I read your 'fire' comment I was thinking of the standard hand signal for fire, which JS correctly described. It would appear that you did not know that such a signal existed, so I would question your qualification to pass judgement. I've flown a couple of gas-turbine aircraft types which didn't even have the facility for the groundcrew to plug into the intercom.

http://bit.ly/b7tSnx

You need to study page 54 onwards. http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP637.PDF

Back on topic please, for the sake of the thread starter and for the sanity of everyone who reads it.

fly_antonov

6th Jun 2010, 20:36

Dear John Smith,

You do the 8 signal and point to the fire. I will tell the crew that the APU or aft hold is on fire or that there is a sudden leak of liquid out of the wings, through the intercom, ok? When every second counts, I want to see you doing hand signals and trying to figure what signals the pilot is giving you back from the other side of the windshield.

I don' t know what kind of wild procedures you have at your airline but it is definitely not standard to have no verbal communication between P/B crew and the flight crew.

It is SOP to have verbal communication at most airlines.
The airline in question always does it, except in this case when an incompetent P/B crew was handling it.

Here is some reading material for you.
SKYbrary - Pushback (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Pushback)

Risk Management

The evidence of accidents and incidents is that there are a number of recurrent features of aircraft damage during pushback:

Hand signal rather than intercom communication
Lack of intercom clarity in comms between aircraft and ground crew supervisor
Ground crew totalling less than three people
Departure from non-airbridge gates
Failure of vehicle driver to maintain adequate communication with supervisor
Lack of clearance between horizontal stabilisers of adjacent ‘T’ tail aircraft
Pushback commenced from a parking position contrary to that marked
Ground crew poorly trained or unfamiliar with the immediate pushback environment.
Unserviceable towbars attributable to lack of ownership clarity
Surface contamination obscuring pavement markings

Torque Tonight

6th Jun 2010, 20:51

It's pointless arguing so I'll leave it at this.

I don' t know what kind of wild procedures you have at your airline but it is definitely not standard to have no verbal communication between P/B crew and the flight crew.

The majority of the time a headset is used. However probably in 10-20% of pushbacks we use hand signals. To use hand signals is normal and standard. To suggest otherwise is quite simply incorrect. Anyway, enough! I really can't be bothered.

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/duty_calls.png

Incidentally,

the airline with the round-breasted female angel painted on its tails (angels are supposed to be asexual)

If you're getting your knickers in a twist about the gender of the tail logo, that's when you know that your argument is absolute twaddle.

fly_antonov

6th Jun 2010, 21:37

No one said the opposite.
You are trying to prove that I said that using hand signals is not allowed because it' s dangerous.

I did not say that it is not allowed and in the above case people were criticising before even knowing the details of the event. I did mention that it is SOP to use verbal communication and that it is safer.

It' s like I am saying that the sun is moving relative to th Earth and you bunch are presuming that I said that the sun is revolving around the Earth.

The crew in the event were not adequatly trained. Period
They should not have done the P/B without getting another headset because they were not competent in doing it without. Period
Whether or not they were competent using the headset I can not judge but they were not competent in their signals and they were not competent in other standard procedures. Period
I judged on what I could judge and I gave my conclusion that they should have gotten another headset from their mates who were standing idle watching the luggage people work, just 2 stands away.

I know what I am talking about. I was raised at an airport and my training goes far beyond the private training.
Stopping flight training was the right call. I know a guy who did the same, today he' s top executive at an airport. Just because he stopped the training doesn' t mean that he' s a complete idiot.
Idiots are those who continue to train in these market conditions, people like you. Still, instructors and other people need to eat so I am glad that you do spend your money into aviation. Just make sure you spend as much as you can and move on.

And since you seem to whine alot about other people, I am changing strategies. From today, I will convince people that they should train to become a pilot, on this forum. That way I will show you how little I care about your whineries and how bitter you think I am.

fly_antonov

6th Jun 2010, 22:14

Then obviously you fly for cheap airlines who have strange SOPs or you do not fly at all. I can pretend to be Mohammed Ali or Ali Baba too.

How do you communicate to the flightcrew that an engine/aircraft section is on fire with hand signs? Oh I don't know. Perhaps by using the standard hand signal? i.e. making a figure 8 motion with one hand while pointing at the source of the fire with the other.

Ok so they are going to assume that the fire is on the engine and shut it down when really it' s the brakes that are smoking? Of course you do not know because there are no distinct signs for engine or aircraft section fires. Have you never learned that "/" means "OR"? And you pretend to be a pilot?

Who are you man.

All decent airlines in Europe work with verbal communication because it is the only way to communicate decently when something does happen. One word for that: bollocks. I suppose that by your definition, the airlines of Europe's two biggest holiday companies and the UK's third biggest charter carrier are not "decent airlines", because on my last trip to Zakynthos, I saw aircraft of all three carriers using hand signals to coordinate engine start with the ground? Never mind that doing so is an SOP (in my company anyway, and I assume in the others).

Gate closed, push-back initiated, nr 1 start-up. No intercom plugged in.
30 seconds to boom. Your P/B crew stops the aircraft and is doing your famous 8 signs and you assume engine number one fire. You shut it down.
20 seconds to boom. Marshaller insisting, cabin crew calls and says she sees smoke on the left side, assumes the engine.
10 seconds to boom. Engine fire warning is not showing but you assume failure, discharge bottles, initiate evacuation.
Boom:

YouTube - Raw Video of Plane Exploding As Passengers Flee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB49OBDuiOY&feature=related)

80% passengers / 250 people of your Thomas Cook 767 (or whatever big UK charter airline you fly for) fail to evacuate and die along with you. Investigation' s final report reads: bad communication delayed evacuation. Crew assumed engine fire when it was a wing root fire.
Reccommend new procedures.

Looking from the video above, the pilot barely escapes the explosion by falling off the rope. This was not during P/B but if it had happened during P/B, and without verbal communication, the above disaster scenario is very likely. In the fortunate chain of events of the above accident, an aircraft mechanic discovered the fuel leak as the aircraft arrived at the gate and reported it through the intercom. Had he not used the intercom and done your 8 shaped signals, it is possible that there would have been victims.
The intercom helped establish a smooth and fast communication whereas signals would have certainly delayed the evac.

I then alerted the Aircraft’s cockpit, saying, “Number two engine fire, extinguisher pull.” The cockpit responded by asking, “Engine fire?” I said again in a firm voice, “Fire, extinguisher handle pull out.” In a little while, white smoke started coming out from the engine, seeing which I realized that fire-extinguishing agent had been discharged. However, the flames were not extinguished. I then shouted over the interphone many times, saying, “Evacuate, please” (in English) and “Escape” (in Japanese). Soon after that, four doors opened and evacuation began.

http://www.mlit.go.jp/jtsb/eng-air_report/B18616.pdf (p.11)

Further:

3.19 Factors Contributing to No Casualties

It is considered highly probable that the following factors contributed no casualties and wounded despite the huge scale of the fire and the delayed start of fire-fighting operations.

A ground crew member had already connected the interphone to the Aircraft when the fire started, so the ground crew member was able to report the start of the fire to the Captain immediately.

You are such a bunch of bullocks yourself, I hope you never cross my path as a pilot, I do not want to die with you.
Since when is it taboo to discuss safety? If your airline is doing it always like that, have you ever contemplated that there may be a problem with your airline? I don' t think so because you do not seem to care about safety at all, you care to be right before anything.

norton2005

7th Jun 2010, 15:20

Failing is not falling down, failing is not getting back up again!!!

flyboy1818

13th Jul 2010, 21:44

well heres an awful update but I'm going to post it anyway, things have gone from bad to worse.

I failed my third series flight test three weeks ago and I decided to take a new approach by going to a new school which fly the same aircraft type and going full time.

I got into the sim today and everything just went wrong, the routes are new and the sops they operate by are slightly different. They seem to think I need another 10 hours in the sim and 5 in the aircraft, this is going dreadfully wrong. I'm lost at what to do now, my old school are willing to take me back, but then whats the point if they are not upto scratch?

I have left the new school as I just don't have the money to afford that much flying anymore, this has not been cheap.

I'm thinking of giving up this is the biggest con ever!

Bealzebub

13th Jul 2010, 23:39

flyboy1818, I am sorry things are not going right for you, but I am confused as to what it is that you think is a "con"?

The schools want you to succeed, and the examiners want you to succeed. Obviously you want to succeed. The examiners need to be satisfied that you are confident and competent during the short test period. The schools do not want to put forward people for test that are clearly not ready, as it does nothing to promote their own record and image.

You should be aware that when flying for an airline, the routes will change all the time and the SOPs will constantly evolve, sometimes from month to month. The whole operation is a constantly changing dynamic.

I am sure that if you are honest with yourself you will recognise that it is you who "is not up to scratch" and that if you are serious about being successful you will need to take a long hard look at yourself before deciding on the next course of action. Training is a tool and it is up to you how you make use of that tool. Determination, effort, aptitude and attitude are what make a skilled artisan. I have seen skilled artisans using the most basic and primitive tools to create works af art. Conversely the best and most modern tools can be of litle use to those who can't use them properly.

I have seeen a lot of people from all types of backgound make a success of this industry, and underpinning most of that success is their own attitude, perseverance and determination. I have also seen a lot fall by the wayside. There is a level of attainment that far too many people seem to underestimate and these forums are fertile grazing lands for many of them.

There is no entitlement to any job and certainly not one in aviation. If you cannot make the grade, then either do something about it or find something better suited to your own abilities. I have often said that luck plays a significant role in this process, but that is quite distinct from relying on luck alone to carry you through life.

I don't want to enter into a debate about your particular circumstances, of which I have no particular interest, however whilst whining about your inability to pass this test may have some theraputic value, beyond that who cares! Either improve or accept that you will not achieve this ambition. The only "con" that I can ascertain from your postings is that you have connned yourself into believing this would be easier than it really is. If it is any consolation at all, you are certainly not alone in that presumption.

exeng

14th Jul 2010, 00:17

Bealzebub's post has fairly nailed the situation.

This job is not for everybody - it doesn't make you a 'bad person' - nor does it mean you have been conned.

Perhaps it is better to find out at this stage that being a proffesional pilot is not for you than finding out 10 years later when suffering some difficulty in the sim.

I wish you all the best.

Regards
Exeng

Torque Tonight

14th Jul 2010, 00:36

Back on thread, try to keep calm. Do everything you can to prepare in advance. Familiarise yourself with likely test routes, know your checklists, RT etc inside out. Get 10 hours sleep the night before. Go in to the test rested, calm, fit, confident and prepared. You'll be less worried and less likely to make silly little mistakes that dent your confidence and raise your stress levels. For example, I was filling in flight plan forms as far as I could the day before the test. Every minute you can save on the test day wil make your life easier. Make it as easy as possible for yourself and don't go in with a worried mindset, that's going to pressurise yourself and stress yourself out. Easier said than done, especially in your situation but very important. Good luck.

What went wrong with your 3rd series IRT? Out of interest did you follow my advice above or did you go into the test rushed and underprepared? You need to start being very firm and brutally honest with yourself.

A first series partial or second series pass isn't too big a deal. The optimism and positivity of the previous replies is testament to that. The best you can hope for now is a fourth series pass and this is a problem. I'm going to be blunt and not pull any punches here because this is a time for straight talking even if it isn't comfortable listening.

You are consistently not reaching the standard required for the IR. You need to objectively appraise why this is and whether it is in your power to change it. If you can identify a particular problem and then work on overcoming it then you may be able to reach the standard required. If you do not make some sort of major change and do something differently but simply keep retaking the test, then I feel you will keep failing until you run out of money.

You can't really claim bad luck any more. Anyone can have a bit of bad luck that makes them fail a test. Hell, it can happen twice. If every time you take the test you encounter some 'bad luck event' that throws you and causes you to fail, then the problem most likely lies with you. A pilot must be able to deal with all sorts of unexpected events.

The harsh possibility is that you just don't have the skills to be a pilot. It is quite a specific skill set - some people have it, some people don't. I'd like to be a good dancer but it just ain't gonna happen. No matter how much I practice, I still look a pratt on the dancefloor. This is something I have to deal with. It may be that you are just not cut out to be a pilot. It hurts but for the majority of the population it's true. Have you ever taken any aptitude tests?

My suggestion would be to step back for a while. Maybe take a 6 months or more out, in a non-aviation job, and come back to it again later and fresher. In your current state you are unlikely to pass. Even if you do pass, in the current market state, I think you will be hard pressed to get any job with your training record.

I guess this is probably uncomfortable reading and no doubt I will be chastised by some for not sugar-coating my words and offering you blind optimism. I think at this stage we would be adding to your troubles if we didn't give you the naked truth. You have a serious situation here and just throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix it. Ask yourself some tough questions and answer them honestly.

hollingworthp

14th Jul 2010, 07:43

I fully agree with TT.

I think you need to take time for some reflection and to let the dust settle.

Perhaps you can offer to take your instructor fir a beer away from the school to get some further insight.

Also, what if you do finally achieve the 4th series after a (what sounds like a rather necessary) batch of additional training. There are few jobs out there right now so you are faced with the additional financial burdon of keeping current or self-funding a type rating.

Take 6 months out, do something else to save some cash while deciding if this really is for you (bearing in mind that life as a professional pilot involves at least annual - 6 monthly for my company - sim checks, followed by regular line and medical checks, for the rest of your career).

By this time you will have the required funds and maybe there will be some jobs to match up to a fresh IR.

flyboy1818

14th Jul 2010, 10:07

I have decided to take six months off, its clearly not working at the moment.

I feel conned because I was the 4th student on an instrument rating at a newly approved school. I chose the school because they were very near to where I lived and able to accommodate my four on four off working pattern. Previous students had passed without fail. The cpl went well, but the testing was delayed due to the bad weather over the winter. I partialled the cpl which was fine.

I then went onto do the instrument rating and found that people were failing all around me, my sim partner from the ir passed on his second attempt. Another person is stuck on series three and has taken a break.

I went to another flight school and I was amazed how different everything was, it appears that the instructors are much more experienced and have more in depth knowledge.

The routes are different and obviously this would require additional time spent in the sim learning new routes, which costs more money. I don't mind spending the extra money but obviously I have to makesure that I can afford this first.

I feel that I have been conned as it appears that I have been sold a sub standard product. I have decided to take six months off to let the dust settle and give this another go when my finanical situation is better and I'm not under so much time pressure.

Obviously regardless of becoming a professional pilot or not, I am not prepared to throw away 14 hard won exams. I will be completing this IR.

madlandrover

14th Jul 2010, 21:48

Why should "learning" new routes take long? The enroute section is simply a tracking exercise, it shouldn't need to be "learnt" for each route. It doesn't hurt to practice typical approaches in the sim, but ultimately an approach is an approach - there's no difference between eg the Bristol ILS and the Filton ILS other than the minima. The IR qualification should enable you to fly approaches without practicing that particular one first, otherwise single pilot IFR would be a bit of a struggle...

flyboy1818

15th Jul 2010, 00:09

Every route on an IR flight test route has its quirks which need to be learnt.

As an inexperienced pilot about to take a very hard test you need to be as well prepared as possible, just look at the stoney welin departure, its a specific non published departure for flight tests and training.

Nikai

16th Jul 2010, 05:00

Flyboy 1818 - Have you been examined by a different testing officer each time? If not, there could be a problem there...

Sometimes bad luck & bad decisions combine, for example someone I know failed 3 times with a single testing officer, the first two fails were due to the testing officer offering a 'unique' interpretation of flight test standards (i.e. "you don't need to look at an ADF needle or check DME to see if a candidate is tracking to an NDB correctly - you can just look outside" :ugh:), however by the third, the candidate was in such a state that the flight was sub-par. They sat the flight test again, with a different testing officer (who actually had operational IFR experience), passed straight away with no problems and has since done subsequent renewals with good clear passes each time.

Good judgment would have probably been getting a different testing officer for the second flight test, but sometimes these types of things aren't an option!

First testing officer is no longer allowed to conduct flight testing following a series of complaints from their own colleagues, students and flying schools. Will fourth time lucky pay off? Only time will tell.... but I know they worry that it will be difficult to shake!

If it's been a different person each time, by combining their critiques, with the information the instructors at the new flying school give you, and by spending time studying and practicing briefing the departures, approaches and enroute sectors (armchair flying) you should be able to prepare yourself for another flight test, but only if you listen carefully to what they suggest.

You won't be able to prepare yourself for every eventuality but, you can think about how you'd handle different situations that could be thrown your way. You can improve your situational awareness through practicing on flight sim or even drawing different scenario's, for example - ATC vectors you out of the way of inbound traffic, which way will you be required to turn to join the hold, what type of entry will it be etc.

I agree taking a break from paying for the flying might be a good idea, but don't leave it too long, or at least, keep your mind in the game, otherwise it might take a relatively large investment (time & money) to get re-current.

If you have been examined by a different person each time, it is likely that there are some very valid points that would have been raised, like some of the others have mentioned, not everyone is cut out for the business and some struggle more than others.

The initial training is very important and if you aren't taught correctly from the beginning it can be hard to retrain, but it is possible. You mention that you don't want to throw away 14 hard won exams, but I'd suggest that unless you really have a passion for flying that can withstand what you've been through so far, you might want to seriously consider whether to continue.

Unless you can make the decision to put your experiences behind you, learn from any mistakes and move forward, because its what you want to do more than anything else, it might not work out - we can be our own worst enemies at times.

Good luck for whatever you decide - whatever you do, encourage your instructors to be frank with you, honest discussions might be able to save you some time and heartache!

Obs cop

16th Jul 2010, 11:29

Flyboy,

I sympathise with your position because the whole training regime does contain a nasty trap. The trap I refer to is quite simply that the MEIR is an absolute requirement for airline employment, however the ability to pass PPL, 14 exams, night rating, multi rating and CPL does not guarantee a straight forward progression through the IR. Indeed friends who now fly for airlines now look back and tell me that the single pilot multi IR is the most demanding flying they have ever done.

Unfortunately this final test is demanding and essential but only becomes an issue once tens of thousands of pounds have already been spent.

It leaves the quandry of struggling to pass an essential test costing £1000 ish per re-sit against giving up and losing thousands on an ambition never achieved.

In some respects this probably ought to be a sticky at the top of the forum to serve as a warning to prospective pilots of the risks involved both financially and emotionally.

As an aside, my understanding of the test system is that the lack of beacon slots and difficulties booking them means that examiners are tolerant of test candidates organising slots and therefore "chosing" their own routes. Indeed, I have been made aware that some weaker candidates end up practicing a single route time and again so they could fly their test by rote. Clearly this doesn't promote preparing flexible, capable pilots as the candidate should be able to prepare a route even if they have never flown it or seen it before, given an hours notice, and then should be capable of flying said route to test tolerances.

Ultimately the examiner has the right to say which route they wish you to fly and ultimately as a professional pilot a candidate should be able to cope. Indeed on my IR the examiner asked me to fly a particular approach at a particular airport. I had flown that type of approach before, and I had flown to that airport before, but never the combination asked of me. "Sorry but I've not flown that particular combination before" was not something the examiner would have tolerated.

On a more positive note, have you got your CPL? If so a change of direction may be a choice. With a CPL you could train as an FI, get some flying in for 18 months or so and then go back to the IR. I appreciate there are few FI positions out there, but at least you could fly in a professional capacity, improve your skills, maybe gain some hours and experience paid for by someone else. After that consolidation a further go at the IR may be less troublesome.

Just a thought and good luck whatever you choose,

Obs

flyboy1818

16th Jul 2010, 12:10

Thank you everyone for some very decent replies!

I have considered training to become a flight instructor and I used to be a gliding instructor in the Air Cadets many years ago. I actually really enjoyed the experience, it was great to share my passion for aviation and interact with so many like minded people.

My original plan was to do an FI course first but then the recession struck and people stopped flying for pleasure hence no FI jobs. I decided to keep my head above water and keep the day job whilst doing my CPL and IR. This seemed to work for the CPL, but I have to admit that if I had my time again I would have taken a six week to eight break from work for the IR.

The question was asked can my passion for aviation stomach the blow? I think the answer to that question is yes but I'm going to take a few months off and use my CPL to fly around friends and family for fun, the list is so long that could take three months on itself!

ford cortina

16th Jul 2010, 12:21

Flyboy1818 Every route on an IR flight test route has its quirks which need to be learnt

Yes this is true, have you got RANT, have you tried Microsoft Flight Sim. I found both of these very very useful when I was doing my IR,

The great thing about Flight Sim, is that you can fly the route and see the pitfalls, ie beacon off the airfield. Fly on flight sim, use a autopilot and practice, practice practice.

I even got the dreaded route. I even got put into the hold at just as I went outbound on the beacon to shoot a approach. I got lucky and passed 1st time.

Maybe being a Airline Pilot is not for you, there are many people who have left at the IR, this is no shame in this.

There is no con involved, everyone, the instructors, examiners and every one here want to see you succeed.

If you get through this, you might struggle on the type rating or even line training, I know of a least one person, personally, I was his safety pilot, who gave up at Line Training. Cost him a fortune and I felt awful for him, but life goes on.

I wish you all the best in what ever you choose.
FC

flyboy1818

18th Jul 2010, 21:33

Yes I have used both RANT and flight sim to prepare for the flight tests. I still think nothing beats flying the routes for real or in the fnpt2.

I don't think I would ever pay for a line training package anyway and I'm not thinking of jumping straight into a jet either. I dream of experiencing some real flying first.

Right Way Up

19th Jul 2010, 00:46

Every route on an IR flight test route has its quirks which need to be learnt

Therein may be your problem. You cannot know every little quirk. Your basic instrument flying & procedural knowledge should cover any route you are asked to fly. If you need to know every nuance in advance you are going to struggle to pass the test & indeed operate in any kind of complex operation.

flyboy1818

19th Jul 2010, 20:44

Everyone practices test routes as part of the IR course, If you change school it would make sense to spend some time flying the new test routes. This is more common sense than anything else.

Mr.Bloggs

19th Jul 2010, 21:04

Forget Oxford. Too many routes. And you are correct, familiarity breeds confidence. There are enough variables (weather, traffic, runway options, etc) when doing the same route. Just like commercial flying. Experience teaches one to prepare before and when on a new route, not to react to it as you go along.

madlandrover

19th Jul 2010, 21:11

Therein may be your problem. You cannot know every little quirk. Your basic instrument flying & procedural knowledge should cover any route you are asked to fly. If you need to know every nuance in advance you are going to struggle to pass the test & indeed operate in any kind of complex operation.

Absolutely. Yes, route flying is practised during IR training since it's an integral part of IFR operation, but you should be trained to manage IFR operations in general rather than specific routes. A new school will need to see some route flying from you in order to complete a 170a flight and recommend you for test with a clear conscience but that does not mean that you should feel that your test pass is conditional on having practised every possible test route ad nauseam. Bear in mind that holding an IR should make you capable of planning and flying (and adapting to any changes in!) an IFR route pretty much out of the box, although it's rare for brand new IR holders to jump straight into single pilot IFR ops - first time I flew a twin post-IR pass was an IFR trip planned with minimum notice, ramping up nicely to 4+ hour airways trips with no issues.

pitot_noob

19th Jul 2010, 21:32

Forget Oxford. Too many routes.

LOL Brilliant... Makes me feel so much better for going to OAA and getting a first time pass to know I had it harder as we had many more routes..

I don't think it would make a difference, if you have been taught well and put in work yourself and know how to fly IFR, the route shouldn't matter too much. Yes, being familiar helps, but what happens on the day when ATC give you something you don't expect? You just have to deal with it and not become a headless chicken because you hadn't practised it!

Mr.Bloggs

20th Jul 2010, 09:10

As it happens, I also got a first time pass at CSE Oxford. That does not preclude me from offering advice to the chap who has been experiencing difficulties.

People learn at different paces, and the learning curve at Oxford seemed steeper to me than for colleagues and friends who trained at Bristol, Bournemouth, Cranfield and Leeds.

Passing the IR is a major feat, but it is not the level at which one then has become a competent commercial pilot. It is a starting point for the road to gaining experience. So clever comments about being able to do whatever the world throws at you during your IR test are so much nonsense. Ask any CAA examiner.

EK4457

20th Jul 2010, 09:14

It needs a guy from Wythenshawe to call a spade a spade and tell it how it is. Love it.

Right Way Up

20th Jul 2010, 13:14

People learn at different paces

Of course they do, but by the end of the training all candidates should be upto the standard required to take the test. If you have to learn a test route by rote you are going to struggle unless the test day goes like clockwork. It is also a pointer for later on when you have to take LPC/OPCs etc. If you cannot deal with the unexpected then the sim is going to become a very depressing thought.

One thought for Flyboy & it is a very difficult option, but maybe you need a break away from the flying, especially exams. You sound like you are in a low place & you need to break that pattern. It is never as bad as you think, but without escaping it is hard to see that. Save up some money, find a good school that you are happy with then give it another fully charged shot. If it does not work out then c'est la vie. At least you have had the heart to try something.

Good Luck!!