Sending a student solo

[RTN11]

I'm a restricted FI(A) and I'm still struggling to get my 25 solo sign offs. I'm looking to clarify a few points.

Is there a legal requirement for me to have flown with the person I am sending solo, or can I just go by notes left from other instructors as to their performance on previous solo flights?

Do I have to stay on the ground while they are off solo, or can I go flying with other students? Particularly having sent someone for their qualifying cross country which usually takes all day.

Is it standard practice to charge a student for their solo time at a dual rate, and pay the instructor for having supervised them? clubs seem to have various policies on this, and I honestly can't remember from my PPL days.

[mad_jock]

Who is actually supervising you?

Who ever it is needs SAS's kick in the chugs quality correction system.

And just to show I am not a grumpy sod

1. Nope but its a dirty habit to get into so soon after starting instructing. It depends what stage of training they are at, what break since they last flew and several other factors to when its deemed ok to do it. But... if anything goes wrong you have to justify yourself, more to the point whoever is supervising you has to as well.

2. Yep you can go flying but one would question dissappearing off on a land away. Again several factors effect this call. And again its the supervising instructors call as well.

3. Its up to the school what they charge and if the FI gets payed for it.

[Whopity]

There is no legal requirement for you to have flown with a student before you send them solo however; consider what would happen if the student had an accident. You as the supervisor might be asked for an assessment of the students ability prior to the flight you authorised. "I don't know m'lud I've never flown with him," hardly indicates that you have exercised your duty of care in the most appropriate manner.

Once you have authorised them, you can go flying but you are still responsible for them and should be contactable if they have a problem, including such things as reauthorisation if they inadvertently land away.

A student pilot is operating under the supervision of a FI therefore; it is not unreasonable to pay the FI for exercising his judgement as a supervisor. The student is still "Training" and is not engaged in "solo" hire. Most schools charge a standard training rate and pay the FI accordingly.

['India-Mike]

I too remain restricted but not for a lack of signoffs or hours, having achieved the requirements after 11 months of part-time instructing up to November last year. I just don't feel ready to be unsupervised. When I'm comfortable with myself I'll get the box ticked. I don't lack confidence - just sufficient experience and speaking personally it's not gained in 25 signoffs. In practical terms, operationally it will make no difference to me when unrestricted due to the nature of club ops where I am.

In any case I wouldn't send anyone solo without discussing it with my supervising FI first, after having flown with the person. Personally, I don't fly if I have a solo stude airborne, but monitor them on the R/T. And I get paid when the student is flying solo. But other places may well be different.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Your questions have already been answered by MJ and Whopity, but why hasn't your supervising FI gone through this with you?

Here however is my take on it.

1) No legal requirement, but it is seriously poor practise.

2) You can go flying, but you do need to keep an eye out for your student obviously.

3) You are responsible, so you should be paid for the time they are flying. I have seen some schools that charge the student for the dual time, but don't pass that onto the FI. It is safe to say that I have avoided places like that like the plague, as should every other FI in existence.

I am a grumpy sod, so I would suggest that your supervising FI does need my patented attitude correction system.

[DFC]

Most training organisations have a phased solo build-up.

1st solo = 1 circuit

2nd = dual followed by 3 or 4 circuits

3rd = dual followed by 30 minutes of circuits (dual for 1 or 2 circuits).

4th and subsequent circuit training solo are 100% solo provided that the conditions are suitable and the student is current.

Therefore if your organisation is following such a system your question will not arise until the student has quite a bit (compared to the sylabus requirement) of solo circuit flying.

In that case it would be reasonable for you to assess the (properly completed) training record, and the conditions before authorising solo flight in accordance with your school's requirements.

For solo cross country flying then since the student should not be authorised for such a flight unless current, the only student ability question in your mind should be "is this student ready for solo navigation?" This should be answered clearly by reading the student's training records and the instructor who completed the previous dual lesson should have clearly recorded if the student had demonstrated the standard required prior to being authorised for solo flight and (as important), made a clear indication of flying deficiencies and clearly indicated that the next flight is to be dual.

So basically if you don't have the training records to back-up a solo authorisation then you can not send them solo.

Of you do have the appropriate training records then even if the student damages themselves and the school aircraft while exercising their own personal privileges granted under the ANO, you have nothing to worry about.........if it was otherwise, many people in CAA HQ who sign licenses and ratings based on paperwork would be quaking in their flip-flops every time there was an accident.

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Can you go flying while they are solo?

That depends on the situation. - For post solo circuit consolidation then no. If you are not there to observe each landing then how are your going to de-brief the student / call a halt when they seem to be getting tired or they have not noticed some weather change etc.

For crosscountry solo flying let's look at what you are not doing;

You are not providing a flight following service.
You are not supervising what the pilot is doing once they departed.
You are not the PIC and have no direct input as to the safety of the flight after departure.

What you are doing;

You are ensuring that the student is authorised to conduct a flight that is planned and briefed to be safe.

You are providing an alerting service in so far as in the absence of an appropriate ATS unit at the aerodrome of departure/arrival you are going to initiate overdue action if the student has not reported safe withina reasonabletime after the expected ETA.

You are a point of contact for third parties who may have reason to comment on the flight conducted by the student.

Can you carry out those functions if flying - I would say in general no because going flying opens the posibility of you being unavailable if required. Therefore if you do wish to go flying I would appoint another appropriate instructor to act for you while you were flying.

There is nothing preventing your organisation having a "Duty Instructor" who carries out admin duties on a particular day and who is thus available at all times. You brief and authorise the nav solo flight and let them know the details before you go flying.

As you can probably guess by now most of the issues surrounding this should be covered by your organisation and you should not have to make it up as you proceed.

[barrow]

All I can say to this is " Jaysus, are you effing kidding me"
Sign off a solo endorsement without ever flying with them.:eek:

[172_driver]

At my school (no name mentioned) instructors can be scheduled early in the morning to accommodate all students that need solo CC sign offs for flights starting before 09:00, both PPL and pre-PPL students.

I've (fortunately) never been scheduled, and would probably refuse if so happened. We are now talking an American outfit, with FAA endorsements all over the shop and the protect_your_ass mentality.

We are not paid anything for solo sign-offs.

[Dan Winterland]

I never liked this requirement. I have strongly suspected in the past some solos were authorised with the requirement to get the 25 sign offs as a influencing factor.

[Cows getting bigger]

There are all sorts of shady things that go on regarding student solos and FI(R)s. I have seen blatant 'trading' in solos, complete lack of supervision ("why are you asking me?") and a vacuum regarding CFI/Club SOPs.

I think the sensible stuff has already been said; what would you expect as a solo student?

[RTN11]

Thanks for all the answers, it really cleared up what I was thinking.

Unfortunately I am split between a few different schools, as I am unable to find a decent full time instructing job as a restricted FI. Therefore, my level of supervision varies, and I have been offered solo sign offs for students I've never even met before.

I just wanted to clarify that it was fairly standard policy to get paid for a student's solo time. I didn't want to be ripping anyone off, and 2 of the clubs I work for have completely different policies on this.

Hopefully I will get a decent full time job soon, with the level of supervision the legislation is designed for.

[mad_jock]

and I have been offered solo sign offs for students I've never even met before.

Just shows there is a fundemental problem with the system.

Don't worry its not your fault. Just means SAS is going to get RSI in his right ankle.

[DFC]

All I can say to this is " Jaysus, are you effing kidding me"
Sign off a solo endorsement without ever flying with them


We are not talking about 1st solo or 1st solo crosscountry.

We are talking about briefing and authorising a student with a reasonable amount of solo time to fly solo in accordance with the sylabus.

Let's look at two examples;

Instructor A flies a dual navigation exercise with a student (25 dual 7 solo 2 solo crosscountry). The student performs well and the training records show that the instructor has indicated that the student should progress to the next exercise - a solo navigation exercise.

Instructor A will be on vacation for 4 weeks after that day. Are people honestly saying that if the student comes in the next day that they will either not fly solo or complete an unnecessary dual exercise?

Isn't making the student fly an unnecessary dual exercise in this case a rip-off?

If since you have never flown with this student before you insist on flying dual so that you can see for yourself that the student can fly because you don't believe the training records what do you do - you will have to do every exercise from 1 to 18 to be sure and especially a dual navigation plus plenty of PFLs and stalls etc.

On the other hand if you make them fly a single circuit you are cheking nothing about what you are about to authorise.

Second example - I am a supervising FI and an FI(R) has been shadowing my briefings and authorisations. Today, I am going to get the FI(R) to brief, authorise, supervise and debrief a solo student in the circuit. The FI(R) has never flown with this student.

In the UK it is still possible to learn to fly and get one's licence in a single seater. First flight = first solo. Can those that insist on flying with the student first explain how they will do that in a single seater.

Remember one the student departs they are solely responsible as PIC for the safe conduct of the flight. Provided that the FI has correctly briefed and authorised a safe exercise the student subsequently flying down the highstreet at 100ft has nothing to do with the instructor.

If a prospective student calls into your school and you tell tham that they will only be able to fly when Mr A is available unless they want to pay extra for Mr B or C or D or E on the days that Mr A is ill or on vacation or if Mr A leaves the organisation. They will (hopefully) walk away from such a shambles.

The most important point is that the Student is being trained by the organisation - FTO or RTF in accordance with the sylabus. The instructor is simply acting on behalf of the organisation. If the student is capable and ready to do the next exercise (a solo) then it is a rip-off to unnecessarily delay their progress and add unnecessary extra expense becuase of an individual whim.