2011 recruitment

[Wrightflyer1]

Does anyone know of the opportunities likely to be available next year and what time of year any recruitment is likely to take place?

I'm currently finishing my frozen ATPL with just a bit to go...

Thanks in advance...

[alphaadrian]

Your timing couldnt have been worse my friend!!...a recession and an ash cloud to add insult to injury!! Be prepared for a very long wait!
No one knows when (and to what level) the industry is going to improve. People can only guess so I might as well give you mine!! I think things will improve in 2011 but it will take a long time to filter down to your (low-hours) level. All these guys payin to fly isnt gonna help ur situation either (or indeed anyones) and I have to be honest...if I was a newly qualified guy..i would be pretty concerned :in fact i got 2500 hours and an ATPL and I still am !! I went along the instructor route but it seems even that is a bit of a dinosaur these days so i sure dont envy you. My advice would be to stay current and concentrate on a job outside of flying....if something flying comes up,treat it as a bonus. My prediction for flying jobs in the UK/europe for newbies...at least 2012


Hey....i would love to be proved wrong tho!!
Good luck mate in any case:ok:

[wangus]

Oh dear...... It's grim. Another lamb to the slaughter. (Nothing personal. I'm a former slaughtered lamb myself.) The training was the easy part. You are in direct fierce competition with thousands of 250-300 hour people...like myself. None of us have a crystal ball, but notwithstanding what Gordon Brown says, there are dark days ahead for the European and UK economy. There will be minimal recruiting, and they can choose people with line experience. We are VERY far down the pecking order. Unless you have 27,500 euros + VAT + money for living expenses + very loyal wife/husband/partner.
I hate to "piss on your bonfire" but I've never had an interview in 2 1/2 years, two IR renewals, 25 hours in 757/767 sims, loads of "contacts"......and that was in better times.

WWW, another one who should have listened to your well intended warnings!

[767200ER]

I waited 6 months from finishing my training, applied to ryanair as soon as i finished and have been accepted following their assesment, Bank loan 27500 euros, earn around 60K a year so it can easily be paid off. Consider it an investment rather than expenditure, just like your training has been so far. :) There are jobs there, not many anywhere else.

I wish you all the best with the rest of your training and hope to fly an NG with you someday soon :)

[Piltdown Man]

...in direct fierce competition with thousands of 250-300 hour people...

If this were your only competition. Also in the market are 2,000 - 3,000 (and more) hour jet & turbo-prop drivers who can hit the ground running.

Unless you have 27,500 euros + VAT + money for living expenses...

If this were the solution... The only thing it will guarantee is that you'll be poorer by that amount plus the repayments and still be unemployable until the market picks up.

PM

[Aerouk]

Depends who you are, where you and and who you know.

I've got mates who are struggling to get jobs and others that got a job within 5months of completing modular training with a great British airline.

[Callsign Kilo]

earn around 60K a year so it can easily be paid off.

Are you going straight to the LHS my friend? Where are you getting these figures from? Absolutely bizarre. Please don't put yourself in harms way and become one of these disillusioned FOs who expects the earth from this airline. This is a good job and by in large a pretty happy place to be, but only if you accept the reality of it. 60K a year is pie in the sky, regardless of what Brookfield claim in their 'guidelines'

Line training aside, your first 500 hours on type will be at 60E per hour. That's E55.5 after training and recurrencey deduction. So E27750 at 500hrs. The average for an FO (dependent upon base) is currently anything between 600 to 750 hours per year. Not the 800-850hrs quoted by BRK!

Even in your second year paid at 80E per hour or 75.5E after deduction, 750hrs equates to E56625. Then take your 3% + vat (21.5% in IR) off for your accountant = E54561 before tax and NI. Best case presently.

Sorry to burst your bubble but that's the face of it.

[alphaadrian]

I might be wrong but I have a feeling wrightflyer was talking about "proper" employment (if you will excuse the term). There are loads of schemes and various p2f/line training/hours on type/blah blah blah ..er...ahem..."jobs" out there but im guessing he was talking about the kind of job where he actually got paid for it!! Strange as that idea may seem:eek:.
If he was prepared to pay out 27500k to Ryanair or some other organisation..then i dont think he would have posed the question the way he did..maybe im wrong tho. Wrightflyer?


ps not having a go at Ryanair btw. I guess if ur a 250hr rookie, ur options are limited and im sure for some it works out well. Like i said in my first post...its difficult times for all but 10 times so for newbies.

[Pilot Positive]

....there are dark days ahead for the European and UK economy...

There is a discernible distinction between the 2. Major economies in mainland Europe are ahead in their economic cycles and are already seeing the return of minimal but steady growth. Whilst the IMF has revised world growth figures upwards.

However the UK, I am sorry to say, has not yet been through the worst of it. With an elction looming, anticipated significant public sector cuts by whoever wins, record borrowing of £890bn/over 60% of GDP :eek: it is more likely the UK will end up going to the IMF with cap hand looking for a hand out.

I would agree with alphaadrian's prediction of 2012/2013 before we see any kind of consistent and sustainable growth and with a lot longer before we see pilot recruitment reaching anywhere near the heady heights of 05-07 (if at all possible). This prediction excludes the impact of any fundamental legislative changes designed to accommodate the UK meeting its CO2 targets.

Unless you can get into RYR or find enough bucks for a self sponsored TR (risky at best and you wont make any friends for later) then the best bet is to learn another language, get out of the UK and go world walkabout...you'll have some fun and you'll do some great flying. :)

Good luck though. :ok:

[767200ER]

The average for an FO (dependent upon base)

Appreciating the rest of your post, this is the main variable, i know a guy based in EDI, made 64K in his first year, longer sectors means more hours and therefore more money per sector. Being based somewhere like STN, some sectors are only 35minutes flying time. and so earnings would be lower.
Some months he makes 3K, some he makes up to 6.6K guess it depends mainly on base.

[flyhelico]

2011? recovery??? so in 8 months, all our problems are resolved?

it will take 5-8 years before a 200h pilot find a job.

expect 2015 ...minimum!

what I think is the next crisis will be around 2020 with a very very slow recovery.

it' s possible that 200h pilots will never get jobs:ugh:!

[Wirbelsturm]

Just to add a little perspective to the 'doom and gloom' mongers out there.

The change to pilot retirement age was implemented in 2005, 5 years ago. This has added significantly to the fall in available jobs as the airline recruitment has, effectively, stagnated since then. Airlines live in a reactive and rarely proactive world. The incresed productivity of one of their most expensive assests has led to the negation of recruitment irrespective of adding the current economic climate on top.

Retirement is now at 65years, another 5 years away. How many pilots will continue to that is anyone guess but a lot do not want to continue flying when they need a stair lift to get up to the aircraft.

When will recruitment start? Anyones guess again but I, personally, think it will be sooner that 2015 as companies need to fill the retirment black hole that is looming. How much and when depends very much in the UK as to the state of the public purse and the willingness of private investment.

An inside rumour is that BA will be starting to look for new pilots towards the end of this year, early next year as new fleets such as the 787 and the A380 start to come online and the top end of the seniority list looks toward retirement or part time working.

Who are they looking at? Qualified DEP's, Military and selected FTO students. BA has very rarely taken low houred, self sponsored cadets.

What is of interest however is that, whilst the hold pool is empty, the books for applicants from a wide variety of airlines is chock full. Once the flow begins then the other airlines will need to fill.

So, to summarise, it's not all doom and gloom there are some glimmers ahead.

[Polorutz]

I'll add a little bit of hope to this awful situation.

I'm in the CTC Cadet Scheme and currently Type Rating for easy UK on the A319. My contract is not great (I am flexicrew) so I won't be going too deep into it unless you guys want to ask me directly through Private Messages.

What I would like to add however, is that we are doing a simultaneous TR with some people from easyJet swiss, among them are some VERY experienced pilots with over 4k jet time.

There is however one person on the EZY swiss roster who has a Permanent contract based in Basel with a total time of less than 300TT.

I also know someone starting with a european cargo operator also on a permanent contract, straight out of flight school.

Jobs may not be as plentiful or as shiny as before but I think they're starting to be handed out to some newbies out there in certain cases. I can only assume it will get better with time.

[Pilot Positive]

....and selected FTO students. BA has very rarely taken low houred, self sponsored cadets.

Arent almost all FTO students self-sponsored? :confused: Just not aware that BA are sponsoring any students! Did you mean modular students?

Yes, in the past BA have taken on self-sponsored integrated students from CTC, Jerez, OAA and Cabair. And it is likely these FTO's will remain their core recruiting ground for the next intake of low houred integrated students. When? Well, yes fleet change requirements may have an impact but generally its not known.

[Callsign Kilo]

767200ER

Appreciating the rest of your post, this is the main variable, i know a guy based in EDI, made 64K in his first year, longer sectors means more hours and therefore more money per sector. Being based somewhere like STN, some sectors are only 35minutes flying time. and so earnings would be lower.

I'm not having a go, really. However the system is pretty simple and in this case the simplicity completely exposes the reality. The 'guy you know at EDI' either has a supplementary income external to BRK/RYR or alternatively he is telling a few fibs! When it comes to 'take home,' the latter is pretty common amongst a few pilots here - you will find out soon enough!!

His first year would be accounted for a long these lines. This is based on 900hrs, which unfortunately no FO that I have met in the last 3 years has ever achieved. Again, i'm not the one for pissing on anyones parade; however i do feel new fellas like yourself need to sense a bit or reality before coming here. Neither 64K or 60K will be achievable as a FO. I'm sorry mate, but there it is.

In his first year we will put the guy you know at EDI down for 100hrs at the line training rate. Might be E35 (not sure). So that's E3500.
Another 500 hrs (@55.5) = E27750 before tax, NI etc
Remaining 300 hrs (@75.5) at the higher rate = E22650

TOTAL = E53900. (Thats before the 3%+vat deduction as well)

Sector time has little to do with it. If sectors are more lengthy, you end up doing more standbys and less sectors. Rostering will issue sectors across your base by calculating the average monthly entitlement of hours per FO. The variables will be capacity, seasonal changes, number of crew per aircraft, training, annual leave and sickness, floating crews etc. This can and will alter the average entitlement of hours month by month. Hence your realisation that income will vary month by month. It has nothing to do with sector times; if anything it is more to do with luck. This is why the figure of 600-750hrs per year for FOs in the company has been touted. It is base dependant and each base will operate month by month with the variables i have just mentioned. Unfortunately EDI presently appears to be one of the quieter bases for FOs. This may improve or decline in the future; however guys that I know there all have the same problem. They would like to be busier.

I am just instilling a bit of honesty. There is little point in deceiving. Like I say, it's a good place to be; but you need to be realistic about it. People mouthing of that they earned 64K in their first year of an FO just add to the frustration of those who build up an expectancy yet who inevitably end up achieving something else entirely.

Above all, best of luck.

[Wirbelsturm]

Pilot Positive,

Perhaps I should have been a little more clear in my post.

[Thread creep]

Yes, Integrated students only coming from schools and FTO's that BA considers appropriate. Those students start on the SSP payscale and thus pay again when within BA itself. As you managed to glean from my original post BA very rarely takes modular 'self improvers'. I don't want to spark the good old 'modular vs integrated' yawn debate as the preferences are set by BA not those extolling the positive/negative virtues of both on a rumour network.

[/Thread creep]

Keep an eye on the BA website, you may well see change in the 4th Quarter of this year or the first quarter of next.

;)

[767200ER]

I'm not having a go, really. However the system is pretty simple and in this case the simplicity completely exposes the reality. The 'guy you know at EDI' either has a supplementary income external to BRK/RYR or alternatively he is telling a few fibs! When it comes to 'take home,' the latter is pretty common amongst a few pilots here - you will find out soon enough!!

His first year would be accounted for a long these lines. This is based on 900hrs, which unfortunately no FO that I have met in the last 3 years has ever achieved. Again, i'm not the one for pissing on anyones parade; however i do feel new fellas like yourself need to sense a bit or reality before coming here. Neither 64K or 60K will be achievable as a FO. I'm sorry mate, but there it is.

In his first year we will put the guy you know at EDI down for 100hrs at the line training rate. Might be E35 (not sure). So that's E3500.
Another 500 hrs (@55.5) = E27750 before tax, NI etc
Remaining 300 hrs (@75.5) at the higher rate = E22650

TOTAL = E53900. (Thats before the 3%+vat deduction as well)

Sector time has little to do with it. If sectors are more lengthy, you end up doing more standbys and less sectors. Rostering will issue sectors across your base by calculating the average monthly entitlement of hours per FO. The variables will be capacity, seasonal changes, number of crew per aircraft, training, annual leave and sickness, floating crews etc. This can and will alter the average entitlement of hours month by month. Hence your realisation that income will vary month by month. It has nothing to do with sector times; if anything it is more to do with luck. This is why the figure of 600-750hrs per year for FOs in the company has been touted. It is base dependant and each base will operate month by month with the variables i have just mentioned. Unfortunately EDI presently appears to be one of the quieter bases for FOs. This may improve or decline in the future; however guys that I know there all have the same problem. They would like to be busier.

I am just instilling a bit of honesty. There is little point in deceiving. Like I say, it's a good place to be; but you need to be realistic about it. People mouthing of that they earned 64K in their first year of an FO just add to the frustration of those who build up an expectancy yet who inevitably end up achieving something else entirely.



Thanks mate, i do appreciate the information, i am however 20years old with no commitments in life, E53000 is more money than i would know what to do with at this stage in my life. as far as working for the company, i understand and am prepared for no hugs and kisses, just get on with flying aeroplanes :)

All the best!

[Wirbelsturm]

what changes??

Read my previous posts.

[alpha.charlie]

I had also heard the BA rumours, won't the Ibreia merger have some kind of impact on that though?

[Wirbelsturm]

I had also heard the BA rumours, won't the Ibreia merger have some kind of impact on that though?

Nope,

The merger of the two companies is not going to impact on either airlines at the operational level. As with KLM/Air France the merger will merge the two companies office staff and procedures leaving the flying side untouched........for now! ;)

Current aircraft orders for BA still stand however the demise of the 757/767 fleet has been slowed and there are rumours of pulling the grounded 747's at Cardiff back for the coming schedules.

[Wrightflyer1]

Thanks for the posts on this guys... there are a lot of mixed reviews... I guess I'll just have to get stuck in, finish my frozen atpl, hope for the best like everyone else and consider paying for TR.

767200ER - I've heard mixed reports on paying for your own TR... you'd obviously recommend it then? Were you accepted for a job for Ryanair before you started it? And where did you complete it?

[Pilot Positive]

hope for the best like everyone else and consider paying for TR.

You're obviously committed to the aviation industry then. :rolleyes:
There's a saying: A fool and his money is easily parted. :eek:
This kind of attitude really annoys the hell out of me and my colleagues. :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/410089-p2f-cancer-aviation-merged-petitions.html


A lot of cadets coming out of CTC, OAA, Cabair etc... believe that their FTO owe them a job because they are integrated students. THEY DONT. You have paid just for training - nothing more and nothing less.

Do not be easily led to think that its simply a matter of money to get a job in aviation either or that the industry owes you a job just because you have money to spend. IT DOESN'T.

Did you ever think about earning the right, in terms of experience, to get to your glorious goal (perceived) of looking good on an 80T mid range jet? Or did you want to just pay to fly because you think its easy to do so and it'll impress your mates down the pub? Its not a bl&*dey fair ground...Shocking as it might seem you might just have to earn your right to a multi-crew role. :eek:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you're a Brookfield contract FO what is to stop Ryanair from putting your hours, and therefore your earnings, down to 200hrs a year in a couple of years time when you're on the expensive hourly rate and replacing you with another FO on the low intro rate whose just handed over a bug type rating cheque?

Oh, Nothing.


The Ryanair renumeration isn't bad. Its nothing special when you deduct all the deductions, count the missing benefits and pay your taxes. Talk of making £50k as a new FO are barking.

And remember. You have no permanent contract, very little notice, no minimum hours/wages and no fixed base.

You're O Leary's bitch. Watching some of you dance a jig at the fact veers between curious and sickening. It is a job though, which if you're £70k+ in and watching your ratings expire is the best option in the rock/hard place calculations..


WWW

[alphaadrian]

Pilot positive

I agree with your comments 100% but let me tell you something...guys who are even considering p2f or buying their own type rating aint gonna listen to you. You can argue with them till ur blue in the face. Its like the "green" issue...some are concerned with protecting the planet for future generations..others couldnt really care less...they are gonna be dead so y should it concern them.The P2F issue annoys me lke hell but while ppl are prepared to do it..then it will exist.
Im sick of trying to convert people and have given up trying.

Each time you read about someone doing it do what I do...picture them £30000 in debt with no job offer..it helps!!

Alpha:ok:

[theWings]

Each time you read about someone doing it do what I do...picture them £30000 in debt with no job offer..it helps!!


alphaadrian, a bit unkind, no?

I think they'll feel sick enough every time they get chatting with someone who got the same job, has no £30k debt and got the job on merit.

theWings

[alphaadrian]

The Wings

"A bit unkind..no?"

Not in my opinion im afraid. Sorry!



Alpha

[VNA Lotus]

Do not be easily led to think that its simply a matter of money to get a job in aviation either or that the industry owes you a job just because you have money to spend. IT DOESN'T.

sorry but I don't agree...

first of all english's my second language. I got the CPL/IR/MCC/FI, 800 hours. (piston only). Finished my training 3 years ago and not a job... except flying in a flying club as FI (sometimes) cause it's a volunteer job here.

And honestly I did not know that it would be so difficult. Ok I knew it of course but not in this way.
Well, simply because, when I look all around me, all my friends that I knew during my training, most of them, I should say 90% of them, got a job as a FO 200hours, only because they paid a type rating!! :ugh:
And I can tell you, some of them they are not necessary good pilot, or have good skills. Just because their parent have a high income they became pilot just to wear raybans and tie.
So please, pretty please, don't tell it is not a matter of money. It is only about that...

really I did not want to pay for any TR unless I have a job at the end (contract). But I am thinking about to pay a TR this year. It is not complicated they three type of aircraft anyway in this world: 320/737/ATR.

You know Facebook of course ?? ok so when you see all your friends getting a job one after one, just after a type rating and 200 hours. Your mind starts changing.

In the same time you hate them to kill this industry, you are jealous not having a lot of money like them. In the same time you think : ok if I don't do it, another person wil do and will take the right seat so....

sorry to be negative, but when you see people that you know getting the job and not you just because of lack of money, you really are not happy... I'm disappointed, because it is not my thoughts to pay for working but it seems to be the only way today.

Really I prefer the USA system, at least everybody starts in the same way. Beech/Focker/Airbus boeing... (impossible to have 200h and start in a 320 or else)

In europe this system is crap!! you can have 200h and being in a shiny jet (money money money). and you can have 1000 or 2000 hours (piston and hard working) and being unemployed!! tsss one word: unfair!

Don't attack me... I know I am right. Ok you will tell me some people find a job well paid with a type rating paid by the company. But it is just an insignificant number...

[Pilot Positive]

sorry to be negative, but when you see people that you know getting the job and not you just because of lack of money, you really are not happy.

This is the other side of P2F. Its tough on those who cant afford it and have merit to see those with money and no merit get jobs. It creates a culture of resentment.

VNA lotus, I do feel for you and I would say that you will probably be a better pilot and more experienced than some of your friends will be. I cant advocate P2F because the inherent industry change its likely to cause long term is one I dont relish. You're 24 so you are relatively young in this industry...which means you have plenty of time to see a variety of flying and to have some fun. That can only be a good thing. :ok:

And when you get to the flight deck of a shiney 80T mid tange jet (if thats what you want to do) you will have a respectable background of experience, earned your position and have some great stories to share. The kind of people I like to fly with. :cool:


PS alphaadrian. Yeah perhaps you're right mate. I have never had to pay for my training so I guess I'm a lucky one....however if I can just get through to 1 wannabee out of the 1000's out there then thats 1 wannabee less who is adding to the P2F culture. Still hurts me head tho :ugh:

[VNA Lotus]

PIlot positive.
thanks very much for your reply!
you I was quite depressed but now I am better. Up and down, that is normal....
I need to have positive thoughts and attitude. Quite tough nowadays but I need it.

you know I am so stressed sometimes, I try to find so many ways :

how much money for that ? a backgroup carreer, as a flight dispatcher ? how much ? where ? when ? or maybe as a cabin crew ? but how to justify with my Cv (pilot) ? or maybe I go back to the university ? a degree ? but for what ? which subject ?
or maybe a type rating ? which one ? jet or turboprop ? and if it does not work ? No I can't....
which country ? maybe I take my bags and go another country ? Canada ? But I need to do the CAA course.... or USA ? no I can't, I do not have the Green card for working....

well so many questions.... that sometimes I get depressed and have headaches...really. Very tired and tensed too.

sometime I want to change right away a job and forget about aviation. But the passion comes back....

negative thoughts. We need to avoid it.

tomorrow's sunday, I'll see my family. I'll forget about aviation for at least one day to breath. Keep going guys. It is not easy but life is a long struggle. And as Pilot Positive said, we will have a lot of stories to share, with a smile of course...

[flyhelico]

Vna,

you know, it takes only 2 months to complete a type rating.
you don't really need to have a type rating to get a job.

It would be better to wait, and if you know someone who need a pilot like you with a type rating, go for it.

I have myself a rating on the 320. Did it in 2007, I got no job offer.No interview at all, nothing!I think 2007 was the beginning of the crisis, it was in the air, nobody saw it.

If I did it in 2005, yes, I would have got a job already, but I would have certainly lost my job in 2009, and now with experience, airline don't want you anymore! good for me and the industry, I have no experience , I am cheap, and I will be the next one to be hired (then fired:eek:... yes they will fire me once I pass the mark of 1000h on the bus)!

My rating is now expired, and I will renew it only if I have a chance to be hired.

Now it doesn't worth, cost too much.

If you want get an idea when to start a training, look at the major airlines.
look at the USA, ad look at BA and other national carriers. If they hire, it' s good sign.

Look around you, don't focus on Airbus or Boeing only.

[Pilot Positive]

I need to have positive thoughts and attitude.

Bang on the glide slope! :ok:

You're in a good position now: 800 hours, you're an FI, speak 2+ languages and by the sounds of it you have the right attitude. Thats a lot more than some guys aged 24 entering the industry have. Its easy to look at someone better off than yourself and ask "Why isnt that me?" Its trickier to spot what you have in terms of positives and realise that theres a lot more people worse off than yourself! Think of those guys coming out of integrated courses now with 200 hours!

Fast tracking through P2F is not all its cracked up to be and there are other ways to achieve what you want to achieve...

If you have no committments go and explore, try different things in different countries in aviation. You'll build experience, meet new people, make new friends and have some amazing fun enroute - in a few years time when things start to pick up you'll have some useful life experience to share over and above others your age.

Wish I was 24 again. :{

[Finals19]

VNA....

We have a saying in English - "keep the faith" and its really what you (we) all need to do right now, without succombing to the gamble that is P2F. As Pilot Positive said, at 24 and with 800hrs, you're not in a bad place at all.

We all get the days just as you describe - flying "the desk job", agonising over how on earth we get ourselves out of this awful mess and yes its stressful, depressing and can have a negative effect on both you and your family. Its soul destroying to have spent thousands on training and then just be waiting around, trying to keep current and sending out cv's / researching companies, but without even a response or a "no thanks".

I am 38, have 1250+ hours (with 800 in Air Taxi on Navajo's) am fluent in English and French - despite lots of people being supportive, I cannot find flying work right now either (and I am about to get married!) Its very very stressful, yet I cannot see the logic in rolling the dice with a P2F choice. I have tried to view it as a financial exercise, an investment which will pay itself off in a few years. However, as others on here have pointed out, there are NO guarantees - therefore you cannot project how quickly you will progress and pay that added debt off. You can only "guestimate" and if you have any commitments at all elsewhere in your life "guestimating" is not an option.

Hang in there - things will change and those who have current ratings and some experience will start getting hired again (maybe not onto a jet, but a nice TP which will give you some great further experience)

[fastidious bob]

"WWW, another one who should have listened to your well intended warnings!":yuk:

[fastidious bob]

WWW

What a vile little man you are:rolleyes:

[pablo]

Hi fellas,

first of all, I don't mean to sound bitchy but this industry is a cruel mistress for pilots. And it's difficult to have a good overview/understanding of the pilot market until it's too late.

Now... about pay to fly... some guys had success, many others didn't. It's mostly a gamble.
Then even if you get the job and are unfortunate to be in a dodgy workplace, you'll be always pressed because basically you can't say no (you are very easy to replace, and you didn't cost a euro to the company). Even if something happens like the company downsizing, you loose your medical, etc... you are basically in a difficult position.
If the company pays for the training, they'll always be more supportive after the investment they made.
Not to mention the stress you give to yourself for the finnacial risk (unless you come from a rich family).

But... each one can do what he wants with his/her money.

IMHO I think the fairest solution for both parts is a reasonable training bond covering part of the investment the company is making.

Now... having covered that part... about those of you guys being somehow stressed about your situation, I used to be like that.
I had the burden also of comparing myself to others, being negative, etc...
If you accept a humble advice... never let that kind of thing to happen to you, and never beat yourself up.

You must be in peace with yourself and proud, since you are actually doing whatever is within your hands to find a job and move forward on your career.
Yes, indeed we could always do more, and maybe if... maybe if... but I do what I can do and that's all.

I have many colleagues some gained employment with XYZ airline, some paid for ratings, some travelled here and there, etc... they tell you you must do this or that. The part they usually forget to tell is that they have a family backing up finnacially, this or that contact, etc...

VNA Lotus, keep your faith as others said.
You'll see how tasteful it is to find a good job on your own merit and without paying. Might take a bit longer, but you'll be happier for sure.

Finally, I'm not a Human Resources or Economy guru, but... I think the events on the following weeks month might change a lot the prospects for 2011. Greece is bankrupt, and Spain and Portugal are in danger, thus endangering EU economy. We have to wait and see.
I think it's an excellent time to get a university degree and have it as a backup, or go that way and just fly for fun, without all the stresses of job hunting!

Cheers and good luck!

[xuejiesandi]

Hey Guys, all this adds up to very interesting reading...you all are quite right about not having any guarantee. As far as P2F goes, about an year back I used to be very jealous of those who could afford to pay for a rating, as I slogged 6 years to have enough money for my Commercial License. Got an instructor license & while instructing built network. Eventually, I found someone who funded me a turbine rating. But, it doesn't finish here...
Now, I'm waiting from last 3-4 months to get flying as the company I am associated with has no operation at the moment.

I think what if I paid for all this, I would have been in a very bad situation. At the moment at least I can reassure myself, but in case of self-sponsored type rating...man that would have been a disaster. And, to all those P2F wanna be's, if company pays; they have an obligation to get the return out of you, if you pay you're just a responsibility; which can be whisked away as & when required, citing insurance or economical reasons.....
I say do it, if someone is promising you a contract & you've money to forget, but if you pledging your house, man!!!! I will pray for you!!!!

[minimad]

I'm a soldier in the British army and am currently training for my
Ppl. By the nature of my job, having a possitive attitude is key to any
Problem or obstacle you may come across. It sounds like theres no chance of getting
Any job for new pilots. And it dosnt help when people have such negative attitudes.
I'm not saying don't be realistic but you need to have a can do attitude. If you can't
Go over the brick wall go through it, if you can't go through it go under it! If your not
Part of the solution your part of the problem. I dont wanna get to 70 and think "what if I gave it a go?" Chin up, crack on and don't give up! There are jobs out there but its how you go about finding them.

[A320rider]

well said minithing,

I see you are 20 and kow nothing about aviation.

easier to climb a wall than geting into aviaton

[Pilot Positive]

A320, be careful not to belittle minimad's comments. Attitude and behaviour counts for a lot in aviation and he's outlining the sort of mindset you need to have to achieve a goal generally.

Problem solving and a positive attitude can go a long way - there may not be an abundance of the desired mid range jets for wannabees but there are other flying opportunties if you look hard enough. :cool:

Becoming fixated with a "I'm going to climb this wall" may not be as productive as "I'm going to get round this wall one way or another" kind of attitude.


PS Minimad: About that wall you refer to. Yes you can go over it, under it, through it, around it. Alternatively you could always build your own wall :}

[Garba51]

What would Pink Floyd say about that? :ugh:


Garba, out :E

[ToneTheWone]

I’ve often come across posts from wannabees containing phrases like "I don’t want to get to 70 and regret not having tried" or even "I don’t want to be old looking back thinking I never had a go, even if I don’t get a job at the end of training".

But does anybody ever consider they might look back in old age and regret getting involved. And I don’t just mean people who aren’t successful in landing a job, but people who make it to the airlines. Because take it from me, there are quite a few and I should know, because I’m one of them.

When I started out, I too thought it was going to be the dream job. And yes, I did enjoy much of it, both the flying, the challenge of getting there and the people I met. But once the novelty wore off it became just a job, often boring and it played havoc with your personal life and sleep patterns.

Following redundancy last year, and with 2,200 hours in my logbook, 800 turboprop and 500 hours jet, I wouldn’t go back to it even if you paid me. I do have some happy memories and stories that I could dine out on. But overall, I don’t think the sacrifice was worth a few good memories.

What I really want to say is, don’t worry about regretting not doing something, as justification for doing it. You’re much more likely to regret something you did in life, than all the things you didn’t.

I’d like to wish good luck to anybody starting out in this, or any other career, but be careful what you wish for:8

[Pilot Positive]

What I really want to say is, don’t worry about regretting not doing something, as justification for doing it.

Well said ToneTheWone :D

I've often heard the integrated schools such as OAA use this emotive play on insecurity as a means of closing the deal with those poor chumps who go to their sales seminars. "Its no good looking back on your life and saying I'd wish I'd done it...." :=

Its not enought to get into aviation just to want to say that you've done it or because you want to enjoy the thrill of the ride. And unfortuantely its not easy for some of the guys parting with money to decipher between true intent and the ideal built up by some of the very canny schools....

[A320rider]

lot of opportunities in aviation, ahahah, you need a reallity check my little kid...

let s see:
-fly in africa and log 2000h of piston engine that nobody cares
- pay a company to fly a jet for 6 months, and pay again for a new rating.
-become a flight instructor and be out of job and money for years( thousand of piston thst nobody care).

there is no opportunities anymore... if you want stay positive, attack a bank, or place all you money on the 0 in a casino, you may win.

most of my friends in aviation have no job
and still need money (and ask dady:" please daddy, send me 50'000 euro so i can fly a B737 for 6 months", "here my son, you will be the best pilot in the world, I believe in you")
, or a bad paid job in aviation, and they dont like it. they don't know to do anything else in their life, so they stick with their low paid job.

I know only 1 who got a good paid job in a big company...only 1.

I prefer to look back when i will be old and rich, than look back when poor and with no job!

for me,most pilots are lazy, all they want is to play with planes and have a good time.



go to UNI!!!

[Pilot Positive]

for me,most pilots are lazy, all they want is to play with planes and have a good time.

Reflecting on your personal experiences are you A320rider? If you think flying in a multi-crew or even single pilot commercial environment is easy and ego driven then stay well clear of the industry...you will clearly be a liability with that outlook.

I say "will" because you seem to be lacking any sense of reality of the industry which suggests to me that you dont have any experience of aviation and have probably never had any kind of flying job. Which given your attitude, wouldn't surprise me.

[jimmyjetplane]

A320 have you ever actually flown an A320? You come accross as a proper *****r and I bet you havn't!

[Wodka]

just ignore a320rider he/she is a sad little person and long term troll under various usernames

[PIELORD]

A320 rider, flyhelico , fly antonov and fly prototype are all the same person I believe....:rolleyes:

[andrew152]

I dont understand why various people on this forum are so negative about the airline industry and constantly so doom and gloom about job prospects. Regardless the industry someone will always know someone that didn't make it...that's life!

If you hate the industry, think you are better off pursuing another career, have no interest in aviation...then stay of the forum and stop wasting both your time and the time of people that do actually have an interest in the industry.

[Abbey Road]

for me,most pilots are lazy, all they want is to play with planes and have a good time. Oh, how charming! I have had flying careers in 2 air forces, a short spell charter flying, and now fly for a major airline (but only for the last 5 years). Having been a professional aviator myself for 30 years now, I have to take exception to the twerp who thinks "most pilots are lazy". :hmm:

[pablo]

You’re much more likely to regret something you did in life, than all the things you didn’t.

words of wisdom

[jimmyjetplane]

Sir, please don't rise to the bait! A320 and the lies talk through their ****s!

Doubt if they have even had a trial lesson!

[minimad]

In the great words of Del boy, he who dares wins!

[waco]

One of the really interesting things about aviation is. Just when you think things cannot possibly get any worse...........they do.

I'm certain that 2010 will prove this maxim perfectly.

[RVR800]

A320rider has a certain style; he clarly doesn't subscribe to the glass half ful school though, real doom-and-gloom merchant

[A320rider]

most of you are still kiddies here...what your mom and dad think about you, when with no job and full of debt you will be soon?. will they continue to give their own cash to pay for your professional HOBBY?

one guy I know told me he will fly small jets when he will get his license. he got his license, and after 18 months, he is has no job, no Uni degree,...dady pays everything, his house, food, and his car.

3 years ago, I met a guy, 23 years old who couldn't pass airlines selection. he had cpl, IR, MCC...now he is cleaning floors in an hospital.Maybe now he makes sandwich cheese at Mac Do? not so bad for a frozen airline pilot!!!

he told me he doesn't know to do anything else except flying his light twins....

again, go UNI! study IT, whatever you want, but do something else than waiting your time and money in aviation.

[fade to grey]

although a320 is a long term troll, some of what he says has a ring of truth.

What I am currently mulling over is what % of new CPLs will NEVER get an airline job these days, and NEVER succeed in their aims.

When I qualified in 1995 jobs were hard to come by (pretty much AirUK was the only place to go, and that generally took 2000 hours to fly a F50 !),

we thought we had it bad and it took me 2 and half years to get that first job but there was an expectation you would eventually get one, I,m not sure if the same could be said today

[Reverserbucket]

fade to grey

what % of new CPLs will NEVER get an airline job

I personally know several CPL/IR MCC holders who have never flown anything outside of training; many returned to a previous occupation to pay the bills with the intent of returning to flying when 'things picked up' however got trapped by the responsibility of family and mortgages etc. When the market improved they simply couldn't afford to leave the security of their current employment. In addition, many are not 'airline material' in my view - they make it through training but have not a snowball's roll in hell of a chance of making it through an application form let alone an interview. I never cease to be amazed by the level of naievity and sheer ignorance demonstrated by many aspiring, student and freshly minted CPL holder's. Truth is those AirUK days are largely gone and the sort of opportunities that existed 15 to 20 years ago for the aspiring low houred pilot no longer exist. Most aren't interested in getting that first rung on the ladder through instructing and rightly so - they may not be suitable as instructors; many consider it to be beneath them (integrated grads that is). The harsh reality is that the large schools are not really training airline pilots these days - at least the selection procedure is not for airline employment, more for suitability to commence training for a CPL on a piston single with a view to obtaining a licence. You're on your own pretty much after that. You could draw an analogy with A320 rider's (Ronchonner?) sandwich cheese at Mac Do the 'sandwich cheese' looks very appetising in the picture and you are hungry; 'Mac Do' can make it and sell it to you but will it satisy your appetite? I doubt they particularly care.

But then those were the halcyon day's I suppose, as you say

generally took 2000 hours to fly a F50 !

I'm not sure most company's would stretch to that amount of training today! It didn't take that long to get to grips with the Citation did it? ;)