Too Old for the Emergency Exit?

[Herod]

Just a query. I have heard, from a good source, of a couple in America who paid extra for the better legroom in the emergency exit. (Don't know which airline). On boarding, they were told that they couldn't sit there because, being 70, they were too old. I've never come across this one before and it strikes me as a bit silly. I know many people over 70 who would be quite competent in seat 0A; equally I know people of 30 who I wouldn't want on an aeroplane unless they were handcuffed. Anyone know more about this?

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

I can imagine that to avoid being sued by specific individuals who might be denied those seats for being incapable - since people love to take offence at any imagined slight, then sue for it, especially if they see a company as the defendent, the airline in question might have decided on an arbitrary age cutoff which would ensure getting most of the age-incapables in the net without them having to tell someone they can't sit there due to a perceived incapability, then getting sued.

[77]

Pax sat next to an emergency exit have to be capable of operating the exit unaided in an emergency. Overwing emergency exits of the window variety have to be removed and then jettisoned overboard so as not to block the exit. They are very heavy and would require a fit and able person to manhandle them.
The check-in agent made an error in this case in allocating the seats. There are several restrictions on seating people in various seats usually for safety reasons.
Hope this helps.

[Jarvy]

Here in the US you can not use age as a reason, as it is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of age for anyone over 40. Could there to more to this I wonder?
It would have to have been on their ability not their age.

[purplehelmet]

a few years ago on a flight to spain prior to departure me and my two traveling companions were asked to swap rows with 3 children who were sat in the over wing exit seats in front of us due to the fact they were deemed to young to young to operate the exit door in an emergency.my two companions were both over 6ft and lets say rather big boned.as we swapped seats i looked at the size of the exit door and then at my two companions and politley asked them if i could sit next to the window:E well one never knows.

[Load Toad]

Surely the purpose of the exit row is for it to be suitable for the evacuation of the aircraft and the ability of the seats, the space and the people sitting there is to best facilitate that if such a need arises?

Thus the 'comfort factor' is a bonus, not a privilege.

And therefore such seats should not be sold at a premium and filled only with people capable of performing adequately if an evacuation is needed?

Seems pretty chuffin' obvious to me.

Frankly I don't want to be burnt to death because some obese, geriatric with toddlers in tow can't open the exit and get their ass out of the 'plane.

[Final 3 Greens]

Frankly I don't want to be burnt to death because some obese, geriatric with toddlers in tow can't open the exit and get their ass out of the 'plane.

Yes, but you want low fares, so the airlines have to get their profit from somewhere, like selling comfort seats and if your ass gets fried as a result, you asked for it:}

[G-BPED]

Is this the story you are referring to?

'You can't sit there - you're too old!' Pensioners banned from plane's exit seats after paying extra for leg room | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1264804/You-sit--youre-old-Pensioners-banned-planes-exit-seats-paying-extra-leg-room.html)

It was a Thomson flight to Egypt

Regards,

G-BPED

[10DowningSt]

They are very heavy and would require a fit and able person to manhandle them.
The check-in agent made an error in this case in allocating the seats.What utter bollox. Have you ever actually picked up one of those panels?

The real bollox though is the implied assumption that soneone of 70 is not fit and able for that reason only.

Look around you, sunshine; I'll be 70 in 3 months time. So will lots of other fit and able people. I cannot imagine how I managed to get my zimmer frame across 20 miles of Dartmoor yesterday. Perhaps it was the pack on my back that helped.

I go for the overwing exit every flight for four reasons; firstly the legroom, and secondly because I know that I know how to get it open and out of the way fast, which 90% of your 10 - 40 year-olds in the UK would have trouble with seeing as how they are so effing thick, and thirdly because I do not want my way to the exit blocked by the 50% of that age-group who are obese as well as stupid, and lastly because I know that I probably won't panic (from experience in such situations) while I'm fairly sure that most people under 50, brought up as they are in a protective, risk-averse cocoon, will start screaming, climbing over each other, and otherwise not carrying out an orderly evacuation as soon as danger threatens, because they have never, ever, been exposed to anything more dangerous than crossing a road without doing a risk assessment.

Apart from those who join the Armed Services, and I would happily cede my seat to one of them.

Not fit and able, indeed. You touched a raw nerve with your misguided and patronising remark.

obese, geriatric with toddlers in towReword that, matey. Geriatrics aren't that obese, usually, and don't come with toddlers in tow. It's obese 25-year-olds, sweating, smelly, tattooed, with toddlers in tow that frighten me.

[Load Toad]

Just trying to cover all eventualities matey.

[starbag]

Many airlines use the following CODPIE acronym for suitable ABP (Able bodied passengers) to be seated at self help exit rows;

C - Children (normally up to age 14)
O - Obese (require an extension seatbelt)
D - Deportees
P - Pregnant
I - Infirm
E - Elderly

Those categories should not be seated at a self help exit, but discretion should be used (ie plenty of senior travellers are perfectly suited to sit there, and an obese person might just be able to fasten the seat belt under their belly with considerable force (although seat belts at exit rows on my airline at least are shorter than standard seats!!)

[MPN11]

A week or so ago I was watching on of those jolly Air Crash programmes involving a 737 [?] landing at LAX on top on an aircraft holding on the runway.

Part of the body-count was attributed to the over-wing door not being thrown outside the ac and, instead, being left inside ... half-blocking the exit.

I don't care what definitions or descriptions people use to define exit-row occupancy, so long as the people who are sat there do the job when/if it's needed. If that means me being declared too old or feeble [physically, not mentally ;)] I'll live with the slur.

[PAXboy]

Unfortunately, most of the above responses are true and the challenge for CC to accurately guess the competence of pax to do the deed is a tough one.

The weight of the door is why some a/c now have a hinged overwing door that only requires to be unlocked and pushed - it will then swing up and stay on support struts. This example (if link works) shows a 737-800 on the ground with them open. Photos: Boeing 737-832 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Delta-Air-Lines/Boeing-737-832/0332390/M/)

[Final 3 Greens]

What utter bollox. Have you ever actually picked up one of those panels?

I have and they are heavy - about 25 kgs and also an awkward shape to manage.

That, allied to having to pull in, twist, and throw out makes them difficult to deal with.

The new design on the 737 NG takes away this aggro.

[lowcostdolly]

F3G :ok::ok:

I had just written an almost identical post but my computer (newly upgraded) is unpredictable on what it allows me to do on PPrune at the mo or perhaps it has ash contamination :oh: The post has disappeared when I pressed submit :hmm:

10Downingstreet at my mob the elderly in our training acronym says "elderly if frail" then you cannot sit by this exit. We go on physical ability not age. Age discrimination is against the law.

Make no mistake here safety not comfort or revenue is the consideration at these exits which are unmanned by the CC during takeoff and landing....the very times an incident is likely to happen. If you or anyone does not appear to have the physical capacity to man these exits at these times you will be challenged and possibly moved by the CC....regardless of age.

I think this would apply in all UK airlines. With the greatest of respect to our ground colleagues many do not know what applies on board. The marketing depts of most airlines will capitalise on the revenue provided by these seats and consider nothing else at the time of booking.....

Who sits at these exits is at the sole discretion of the CC in accordance with company policy.... end of. That said it does appear on face value Thompson CC could have handled this better and more sensitively.

Personally this is an area which I think we could all brush up on in initial training.

[Final 3 Greens]

Who sits at these exits is at the sole discretion of the CC in accordance with company policy.... end of. That said it does appear on face value Thompson CC could have handled this better and more sensitively.

With an ageing population, this comment from LCD is insightful, although it sounded to me as if it was the ground staff who were not as sensitive as they could have been.

In another 25 years, I'll be entering the zone where I may not be able to handle an exit or drive properly.

Not nice to think about, so I don't and I enjoy each day as it comes, but the point about how to manage the situation sensitively, but decisively, is well made.

A few years ago, I used to fly puddle jumpers with a guy who was late 60s and used to tap a few of us 'young uns' to sit in the right had seat for local flights - nothing was ever said, but I am sure it was his way of recognising that he wasn't as sharp as in years before and adding a bit of safety margin.

I hope when I am no longer able to sit by an exit, I'll recognise it and mke the decision for others, before others make it for me.

[radeng]

Did they get their money back?

America West Airbuses always tell you to place the hatch on the seat. BA say eject through the opening. Take your choice.

[77]

10DOWNINGSTREET..
Quote What utter bollox. Have you ever actually picked up one of those panels?

Yes, many times. 35 years in aviation, a good portion in command does give me a little insight into the problem.
If you read what I said ..A person needs to be fit and able.....no mention of age.
In the end the cabin crew will assess the situation and if necessary change the seating allocation using the authority of the pilot in command.
End of matter.

[passy777]

Reword that, matey. Geriatrics aren't that obese, usually, and don't come with toddlers in tow. It's obese 25-year-olds, sweating, smelly, tattooed, with toddlers in tow that frighten me.

And very likely pi$$ed or stoned to the eyeballs!

I wonder how many times an 'unsuitable' pax has occupied an emergency exit seat and has been replaced by a 'fit and strong' younger person who takes it upon him/herself to get 'well refreshed' and becomes unconscious for the majority of the flight.

I am not criticising the airline policies, but I wonder how many passengers would be so keen on occupying those seats if an in flight alcohol ban was a condition of obtaining them.

[Herod]

Thanks for the feedback. It was certainly a US flight, although the Thompson is similar. I know about the doors and the weight thereof (retired 737 captain), and I agree a person needs to be reasonably fit and agile to sit at the exits. My concern in this case is the arbitrary asumtion that a person is unfit purely by reason of their age. I think if it were tried on me on a UK flight, I'd have them up for discrimination, and take a fitness test to prove my case.

[Jarvy]

As would be the case in the US if its was purely on their age. The AARP are are very powerful lot.

[Load Toad]

Yeah but if you put them off long enough they go away.

[Final 3 Greens]

Let's talk in general terms, not this specific case.

If an old couple checked in and the agent thought they were not mentally sharp enough to sit in the exit seats, a relatively gentle way of letting them down might be to quote an arbitary age limit.

Without wishing to be rude, I've seen some elderly people who were probably fit enough to handle the door, but in reality should not be sitting in that row. In fact I held a meeting in a hotel meeting in Cyprus last weekend and saw several couples who fell in this category.

So are we suggesting that check in agents say "sir and madam, to avoid any implications of age prejudice, I have observed that you appear to be rather slow in your thought processes and speed of reaction, plus your ability to grasp reality as do the rest of us is in question in my mind.

"Therefore, due to my concerns about your mental competence, I have re-allocated to you to 23 D and E."

Do we really wish check in agents to say things like this? If I had elderly relations, I'd rather they were given a white lie.

I suggest anyone pushing the age prejudice agenda thinks hard about that, as you might get what you wish for.

[6chimes]

:ok::ok::ok:

6

[radeng]

Sometime back, when my employer insisted on me using the travel agent, they were very pleased to have booked me in the exit row on an internal US flight. They were much less pleased when I told them to change it because walking with a stick, I was not necessarily able to meet the physical requirements!

Most PAX do not realise why people in those rows need to be physically and mentally fit and fluent in the language applicable to the airline.

[77]

I think if it were tried on me on a UK flight, I'd have them up for discrimination, and take a fitness test to prove my case

Come on Herod as a retired 737 driver you should know better. If it is decided through the authority of the PIC that on safety grounds your seat is to be changed then no argument. Discrimination, age or otherwise doesn't come in to it.

[Jarvy]

F3G, it may be OK to say that in Europe but to say that it is due to their age opens up all sorts of problems here in the US.

[Final 3 Greens]

Jarvy

I understand that.

The truth is not age that is the problem, but their lack of mental ability to perform the task, even if they are physically fit enough.

[Herod]

77, I agree with you about the authority of the PIC, but I don't think that came into play here. As an update, it appears that the airline concerned has promised exit row seats in future. (suggests someone got it wrong, and raises the question of how long those seats will be promised. 100th birthday?). The party concerned is taking it further, so I'll keep you informed. As an aside to all those suggesting 70 is "past it", may I remind you that there is talk of raising both the national retirement age and the validity of a pilot's licence to that age. Could raise the silly situation of someone being able to operate as captain one day, and the next be deemed to old to sit at the emergenct exit as a passenger. :)

[radeng]

If someone pays extra for the exit aisle, and then the CC decide to move them, do they get their money back? How do they prove that they've been moved, as they won't get a new boarding card on the aircraft? I can see promises being given that they will get a note signed by the IC, and I can see it never happening. There should be a procedure - but is there?

[10DowningSt]

The point of my earlier post, lost in the red mist of outrage, was that there are a number of factors that disqualify a passenger from taking a seat in an overwing exit row, especially the one nearest the exit, but age is not one of them.

Physical handicaps that reduce or remove the ability not only to handle the exit in the right way, fast, but also then to evacuate fast to clear the way is one of those, and obesity is proably the most common and most obvious.

Stupidity, sorry mental incapacity, is another, although quite how you detect it at a glance is not so clear. But I can think of people who would be completely incapable of following the instructions, especially under stress, and have indeed sat next to them in that row and had to explain what the FA was talking about and why, translated into words of one syllable spoken very slowly. One such fit and able 20-something asked me what it was all about, after the CC briefing.

"Don't worry. If we are told to get out fast, you do nothing until I have opened this win-dow. Then I will climb through the hole and you must fol-low. OK?"

"Is the yellow thingy she showed us how to put on so that people can find me?"

"Yes."

"I'll have to get my bag down, though. She made me put it up on that shelf."

"Don't worry, the pi-lot always goes round collecting things up and he'll give it to you after he's gone out through the hole."

"Oh, that's nice, innit."

As I said, age by itself is not a factor.

[lowcostdolly]

Mental capability to comprehend the responsibilities associated with these exits is not something that can just affect the elderly.

At some airlines you can sit by the self help exit at 14. Not many of them listen to the briefing given to their parents who could be incapacitated should an incident occur. I doubt that many 14 year olds have the maturity to grasp their potential responsibilities here.

One of the most sensitive situations I have had to deal with here was when a newbie CC who was manning this exit on boarding came to me and said she had " a retard at the overwings" and could I sort it out?? Her remarks were just :eek:!!!. Her lack of empathy and sensitivity was :sad:

Closer inspection revealed that a party of 6 had boarded with speedy boarding and made a beeline for these exits. One of them had learning difficulties. This chap was certainly physically capable of handling this exit and was in his early 20's so met the age criteria.

To cut a long story short I moved him and a companion for take off/landing. He sat in these seats for the cruise so everyone was happy and discretion maintained. This was a full flight and other pax had empathy and were happy to oblige.

The CC concerned earned herself a chat on disability awareness :ok:

As for SpB refunds well I note any moves in the interests of safety on my FER. What happens after that I have no idea..

[TheOtherGuy]

If it is decided through the authority of the PIC that on safety grounds your seat is to be changed then no argument. Discrimination, age or otherwise doesn't come in to it.


What absolute nonsense.

The pilot must be able to justify and substantiate his decision with a logical, probative justification for their decision. Just because someone is a pilot, does not mean all other laws get over-ridden. You can grope a passenger and say there is no argument, because it is on safety grounds and the PIC has authority? Do you know how old the passenger is or you just guessing they can't open the door? It is concerning the ignorance about authority that is sometimes displayed on this forum. You might want to hide behind safety as an excuse, but if someone takes you on, watch out.

[Final 3 Greens]

Just because someone is a pilot, does not mean all other laws get over-ridden.

The commander of an aircraft has total authority to make decisions concerning the safe operation of the aircraft.

This includes breaking other laws where necessary, for example overriding the rules of the air to protect the aircraft and occupants.

If an aircraft commander has reason to believe that the passenger cannot safely occupy the exit row, then they can make a decision to move them.

It could be for many reasons, e.g. the crew are not convinced that they are fluent enough in the language(s) the crew will use in the event of an evacuations.

The judgment will be generally subjective and prima facie, although in some circumstances like a person with no legs, more definitive.

Of course, a passenger may sue under civil laws and the judges will resolve the matter in court.

I really hope that we do not see matters like this going to court, it will not help aviation safety.

Operating decisions such as these are not 'hiding behind safety', they are implementing it and as lowcostdolly shows in her post, it can be achieved pragmatically and with consideration.

[77]

What absolute nonsense.

I think Final 3 Greens has answered you very well. If you feel so strongly(belligerent) try arguing one day on board, get yourself arrested, then test the validity of your views in front of a judge.
I wouldn't fancy your chances. Most crew are fairly pragmatic and very liberal with passengers however at some stage passengers have to accept that some items are not up for discussion. They just have to accept the pilots decision. If you think the decision is blatently wrong, by all means take it up with the company later.

[TheOtherGuy]

77
I agree it was a good post. I also agree a captain can break some laws for the safe operation of the aircraft but he cannot break any law he thinks fit. If he does, as I said, he has to be able to justify it. If not, he has broken a law with the accompanying consequences. The point I was making was your position of discrimination, age etc doesn't come into it. It does. If you want to swagger back saying you're a captain and your decision cannot be challenged and age discrimination be damned and you think they are just too old, then I hope you try it one day. A pilot has to be satisfied through appropriate enquiry that a passenger cannot meet the inherent safety requirements to sit in an exit seat, regardless of age or any other discriminatory heading. As Final 3 Greens stated, it has to be done pragmatically and with consideration. Your approach suggests an ego problem. As a very frequent flyer, I am more than happy to comply with any safety direction but if purported authority is used capriciously, I am also happy to pursue the matter. If I think a pilot is wrong and I follow it up, then they have to accept the consequences of their actions.

[Load Toad]

We are talking about sitting in an exit row with a few inches more space. An exit that one day might need using for it's purpose.

If you are going to fight for equal rights and freedoms I can think of a few things a bit more important.

[77]

As a very frequent flyer, I am more than happy to comply with any safety direction but if purported authority is used capriciously, I am also happy to pursue the matter. If I think a pilot is wrong and I follow it up, then they have to accept the consequences of their actions.


I thought thats what I said??

I also said I thought crew would act in a pragmatic manner. Crew sometimes get it wrong, however the problem usually comes from pax.

And by the way I don't think its an ego problem, most crew just want a quiet day out and get on with the job.

[lowcostdolly]

QUOTE TheOtherGuy
"It is concerning the ignorance about authority that is sometimes displayed on this forum".

Really :confused:???. As CC I've been visiting/contributing to this forum for a fair few months now as it gives me insight into what makes pax tick. Generally the cabin occupants on here have a lot of respect re the authority of the operating crew on any flight. Much more in fact than what I experience on a day to day basis when I am working. I am regularly challenged on the most basic instructions given to the pax by the pax.

I suspect the comment here though was aimed at aircrew contributers.

Whether you like it or not OtherGuy there is, and has to be, a chain of command and therefore authority on an aircraft for it's safe operation. At the top of that chain is the most experienced and qualified person on board to operate that flight.....the Captain.

However he delegates certain responsibilities to the CC. As an SCCM I ensure these are carried out on his behalf. If I say you don't sit by a self help exit you don't......end of. At my company the Captain will back my decision.

That said most SCCM's have the savvy to exercise discretion, tact and diplomacy. I think this can be achieved at all times. I have never yet had a complaint against me and I have moved a fair few SLF from these exits for take off/landing for various reasons.....not just age.

Ego's from the crew do not come into this at all but I have to say I have met a few pax who have ego's that should be hold loaded they are so excessive :oh:

At the end of the day on safety you do as you are told at the time. You have recourse after this direct to the company if you don't agree.

[lowcostdolly]

Yes I know this is against the law before I am shouted down!! :uhoh:

Also personally I am not a fan of age criteria but I feel it could have a place given a personal experience recently.

F3G read your post and was going to PM but I think this has relevance publically to what you have said and also has relevance to the difficulties crew face on this sensitive subject on a daily basis.

In the past few weeks I have travelled with my Dad as SLF to/from Jersey on a couple of carriers. Both have self help exits.

Dad (and me) like sitting by these exits for the comfort reasons :). Dad would happily pay for this if required.

Dad is 76, of robust build and fully mobile. His only diagnosed medical problem is high blood pressure for which he takes medication.....the CC would never know this.

However I know Dad is not the sharpest tool in the box mentally....bless him. His short term memory is not what it was and when he is put under stress he cannot recall what he has been told in the last 30 minutes. He would be a total disaster at these exits in the event of an emergency.

For that reason when I travel with him we have other seats "allocated" but I quietly let the crew know I can man an exit if needed.

I would question how many pax, like my Dad, are actually sitting at these exits in reality which, because of age disrimination laws, we as CC are not allowed to challenge outright and have to find another avenue....

I'm not saying an arbituary age limit is the answer but it has merit on face value. Can anyone suggest alternatives which would please everyone of all ages and the crew who have to, at the end of the day, ensure these exits are appropriatly manned??

[MPN11]

This entire subject gets into 'Rumsfeld Territory' again ... the unknown unknowns and all that stuff.

I'm a "Senior Citizen". Reasonably fit, not as sharp and incredibly sexy as I used to be, but perfectly capable [IMO] of handling the over-wing door [physically and mentally]. Possibly helped by having had a long time in the aviation business, a few miles, having been aircrew, ex-military, etc ... do we now need a CV to sit in the exit row?

It is potentially so complex that even psychiatrists or physiologists couldn't prove a case for allowing anyone sitting in the exit row.

One thing I do know - the OH [also ex-mil] and I would be calm under fire, and would follow the drills as briefed. But that isn't on my boarding card :)

[G SXTY]

I had this a few weeks ago, with an elderly couple sat in an emergency exit row. The SCCM was concerned that they both looked frail, and would struggle to open the exit if required to do so.

My view (and the captain's) was that it was the SCCM's cabin, and if he wasn't happy then they needed to move – and they were duly re-seated. Age wasn't so much an issue as frailty, but if they had paid extra for those seats, I'd imagine a refund would have been in order.

[HAWK21M]

Obviously the crew will generalize and prefer a visually fit person near the emergency exit.