Uk-nats-nats-net

[Quincy M.E.]

Why do all the snide comment on NATS NET come from ATCOS or ATSAs? They seem oblivious to the fact that personel other than them are required to run the business. I can't believe that such a group of profesionals can be so blinkered.

Re one of the comments on there at the moment under the ash article:



A company such as ours exists to provide and manage services to its customers. With regard to your comment: the air traffic control services (which I infer you believe to be the only ones we provide) are provided by utilising buildings, IT infrastructure, engineering and the ATCOs. The ATCOs are the tool used to make the service that the company provides run. One could argue that it is the ATCOs rather than the 'day workers' that are THE drain on the company finances.

I did not post that on NATS-Net because I dont want to reduce myself to petty bickering on the work intranet but seeing as PPRUNE is all about that kind of thing i put it here.

[fisbangwollop]

So are you suggesting that without the ATCO's and ATSA's we would still make a profit??????? I believe within 120 days of no aircraft we will be bust!! What does that tell you?? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[rolaaand]

Okay,i'll bite.
So let me get this straight,you have replied to a comment posted on our private intranet at work by writing your response on a public internet forum,even though your reply isn't particularly controversial:confused:
That's the kind of topsy turvy thinking that makes me post snide comments on the intranet:ugh:
It could also be argued that every time the latest management propaganda is posted at work, it is closely followed by a wave of obsequious brown nosing from the folks at CTC which winds up the operational staff to the point that they feel obliged to rubbish it out of principle.
I'm just assuming that CTC is where you work given your attitude but I may be wrong.

[Quincy M.E.]

rolaaand

You did not manage to get it straight.

If you read my post again you will observe that I did not post on NATS-Net because I thought that my post was controversial but because I did not want to be associated with petty bickering.

I have also confirmed my final point.

[Angrel]

is that not the attitude that Quincy M.E. was trying to point out?! we are all in this company TOGETHER and having been on the operational and non-operational side of things, am sick and tired of the constant bickering and divide between us! The view of some operational staff (NOT all i hasten to add) that ''day-workers'' are not essential to NATS is madness as is the view from some ''day-workers'' (NOT all I hasten to add!!) that operational staff are overpaid whingers! Unfortunately, these are the people (both ''sides'') who post on NATS-net and contribute to tensions between us.

Without the day-workers/admin/management, the ATCO's/ATSA's/Engineers could not operate.

Without the ATCO's/ATSA's/Engineers, the day-workers/admin/management could not operate!

PLEASE people, lets kick this ''us and them'' idealogy out of NATS once and for all!

now expecting flak so am standing tall to take it! :ok:

[ZOOKER]

Quincy,
Because ATCOs and ATSAs, quite rightly, are professionals and justifiably proud of what they do.
ATC is sometimes seen as a 'sexy' job. It is often featured on TV and in movies.
Consquently, lots of people want to be ATCOs. many of these people, for various reasons cannot be ATCOs. Some of these people find a 'way in', and set themselves an agenda:-
I can't join this 'exclusive club', so how can I spoil it for those who are members? The outgoing CEO of NATS, who, according to a newspaper article, "fell in love with Swanwick", is a possible example here.
When I was at school, I, (along with several of my classmates), wanted to be an airline pilot.
Of that group, only one made it, albeit after years of hard work. The rest of us did not infiltrate the airline industry and 'take it out' on pilots.
Many years ago, NATS, along with other ATC providers, changed from an 'administered', to a 'managed', culture, not a good move. Many first class 'support staff' were disposed of, only to be replaced with other (non-shiftworking) support staff with bizarre job titles who simply haven't a clue about 'Air Traffic Control', which, at the end of the day is what it's all about.
One could argue it was more efficient years ago.
Many operational ATC staff, (some of whom have completed courses of training harder than many university degrees), do not react positively to the contempt with which they are sometimes treated, by those who were quick to remove their headsets, or worse still, have never worn them.
On similar lines, the NHS has, allegedly, 50,000 'managers'.
There is also a possible analogy here with our 'national sport'.
In todays 'dumbed-down' UK PLC, professional footballers are trumpeted as heroes, (see local press for details). My local football club employs many people in various support roles, but without the 11 'heroes' running around on the pitch generating the income, all the others would not have jobs.
Just a few random thoughts.
P.S. A light dusting of volcanic material is now present on cars parked on the slopes of Mt Belzoni. I wish you all well in these uncertain times.
P.P.S. As far as I am aware, Belzoni is not a volcano, (or is it)?

[slowclimber]

PLEASE people, lets kick this ''us and them'' idealogy out of NATS once and for all!

An excellent idea. After that, what about tackling the 'them and us' attitude towards non-NATS ATSUs that some in NATS still persist in using. As an ex-NATS ATCO it drives me up the wall.

[Quincy M.E.]

...Because ATCOs and ATSAs, quite rightly, are professionals and justifiably proud of what they do.


You mean that they leave snide comments as a result of being professional and proud? er... OK.

...support staff with bizarre job titles who simply haven't a clue about 'Air Traffic Control', which, at the end of the day is what it's all about.


But thats the point. There is a huge number of employees who are NOT supporting you! My role could exist whithout ATCOs and vice versa. The company has moved on; your mindset is back in the days when it was a civil service company. There is a lot more going on that just controlling, its just not that simple anymore.

...do not react positively to the contempt with which they are sometimes treated

How are you treated with contempt?

[le Pingouin]

Probably a lot of it stems from the type of personality that makes us controllers (I'm in Aus but work with a few ex-NATS controllers & they're no different).

Are you immediately relevant to the job I'm doing? No? Then don't bother me I'm busy separating aircraft.

Are you interfering with administrative tasks that aren't immediately relevant to the job I'm doing? Yes? Then don't bother me I'm busy separating aircraft.

Are you continually implementing the latest management fads that aren't relevant to helping me with the job I'm doing? Yes? The don't bother me I'm busy separating aircraft.

Do you get the picture? We tend to be focused, opinionated & if you aren't directly helping us you're at best a distraction, or a positive hindrance.

For better or worse that's the way we are & what makes us controllers. It's the nature of the beast. Many of us have long memories of being dicked around by decades of organisational change that has done nothing to help us do our job, so it's hardly surprising we don't appreciate anything similar.

Quincy, you say your role could exist without ATCOs, so from the focused controller perspective you aren't immediately relevant & thus a distraction or worse. And we'll tend to tell you so.

[Angrel]

le pingouin, it is that attitude that forces the divide. I understand that ATCO's need to concentrate on controlling and anything else is a distraction, but what about when they come off console? Do they really need to belittle/moan/make snide comments about the rest of the buisness? As I said in my last post, the company is not just ATCO's and it is not just day-workers/management, we are all needed to run it one way or another and the sooner we start realising that and cutting each other some slack, the sooner the attitudes of ''us and them'' will be wiped out.


slowclimber I totally agree! I've seen the way some colleagues treat outside ATCers and am sometimes appalled at the way they do.

[CRR]

There is a lot more going on that just controlling, its just not that simple anymore.

You've identified the crux of much of the frustration there. Air Navigation SERVICE is now viewed as a business where individuals have bonuses riding on business decisions that at times are contradictory to SAFETY. Accountability is only apportioned to the guys and gals wearing the headsets. You are right when you say the company is not just ATCOs BUT they are the only ones who are ever held accountable for their actions. There are also ops staff who remember the not too distant past when we didn't have multiple managers for departsments that sound very similar with such a pyramid of folk reporting to them and who show little interest in learning just what an Air Navigation SERVICE is.

The question "What about when an ATCO comes off the console". If they have just sat their and worked his or her arse off providing the safest, most efficeint service possible it's almost an insult to be met by the latest propaganda that someone has dreamed up to boost productivity or to ensure we are providing our customers blah blah blah cost effective blah blah blah.

[le Pingouin]

Angrel, it's not entirely "attitude". As I mentioned it's part of the personality that tends to make a controller - we don't make good corporate citizens. They've been trying that experiment down here in Oz & it's been failing miserably.

Cutting slack? The problem with that is there's always a management type prepared to tug good & hard on any slack cut & take advantage. Been there, done that, been done over. Ask them to drop that attitude........

[ZOOKER]

Quincy,
"There is a lot more going on that just controlling, its just not that simple anymore".
SPOT ON!!!
Apart from your p*ss-poor command of the English Language, you seem to have hit the nail on the head.
Presently, thanks to Eyjafjallajokull, there is no controlling going on, - ANYWHERE. :}

[Lon More]

Sings, "Have you any dirty washing mother dear?"

Must be a lot of bored people out there

Can this be moved to your private forum here?

[Brown Dogg]

Completely agree Lon More. This post really should have been started in the NATS forum.

On topic, I think the operational staff get really fed up when announcements about things like AMAN going live were met with dozens of comments congratulating the team, and much back-slapping from the CTC guys, only to find that the controllers are having to ignore it because it's bleeding useless.

[1985]

My role could exist whithout ATCOs and vice versa


Just like to point out, errrrr not really. Contary to some thoughts we aren't a management company. NATS is an Air Navigation Service Provider. The clue is in the name, without ATCO's no job in the company could exist because there would be no company.

Now i undertsand there has to be lots of different roles within the company some that interact with the frontline staff and some that don't, and as a company we need to make an effort to understand each other's jobs.

[lessthan20]

Quite agree 1985. Quincy you could not do your job if there is no ATCO's.

The controllers are being given new ideas such as what we are supposed to do during our breaks and "did you know a 747 is more economical in descent at 270kts than 320kts". Well actually yes i do know that because its my job to know.

We are getting all these new guidelines from people who are trying to save their own jobs in this troubled climate and they are doing so without ever visiting the ops room. This is why the attitude exists.

I suggest that any non ATCO who assumes that all we do is complain come and have a look when it is really busy or there is an emergency going on. It is always dealt with professionally and then try to imagine that someone who has no idea what goes on daily has told you to have a power nap or go to the post office!!!

We all need to understand that everybody has a tough job in different environments but lets not forget that the company will not EXIST without ATCO's and the company would not RUN without the admin workers.

[chiglet]

I "could" say that there a lot of "eg's" around at the mo....but I won't..:p

[Quincy M.E.]

BUT they are the only ones who are ever held accountable for their actions.

How do you know? Are you present at HR meetings when people are being diciplined? I think you are assuming that because a controller being held accoutable is more high profile then they are the only people who are ever reprimanded. I know that I would be in the s*it if I made a mistake in my (safety critical) role.

Can this be moved to your private forum here?

I was going to but no one ever reads that bit of the forum.

Quincy you could not do your job if there is no ATCO's.

I suggest that any non ATCO who assumes that all we do is complain come and have a look when it is really busy or there is an emergency going on. It is always dealt with professionally and then try to imagine that someone who has no idea what goes on daily has told you to have a power nap or go to the post office!!!


Yes I could do my job if there were no ATCOs in the company. I could form my own company (with no ATCOs) and do what I do. (Obviously, in the sense that ATCOs are required to enable aircraft to do what they do then yes I need ATCOs but only in the same way that I need pilots or airports etc)

Also I should point out I used to be operational and have been on many trips to other operational units and have witnessed an emergency going on. So what is your point?

NATS is an Air Navigation Service Provider.

Yes it is and there are many services that are coverd by this umbrella term other than an air traffic control service.

[LEGAL TENDER]

Location: FG11
That sounds familiar. Hurn?

What is your safety critical role anyway Quincy? To know what you actually do for a living would put this pointless debate a bit more in context.

Speaking of drain on the resources... natsnet is exactly one of them! I have no idea how many people are occupied by the running of it, but we could easily do without it. It's completely useless, and it only generates that feeling of corporate propaganda and management spin that is exactly what seems to alienate and frustrate operational staff. I am not interested in reading what my CEO has been up to. I believe he's been up to doing is job, which is exactly what I have been doing too! I trust he's doing it to the best of his abilities, which is also what the rest of the workers have been doing.
To be honest, in order to do my job efficiently and safely, I don't even need to know who my CEO is.

regards

[Quincy M.E.]

all of it

Location is out of date: I have not got round to changing it.

I am not going to tell you what I do because that would undermine my anonymity. But I agree that this thread is becoming tedious and circular.

If NATS-NET were not there you would then be moaning about the lack of information and communication from management.

What seems to alienate and frustrate operational staff to me, seems to be any kind of change or progress.

I am not interested in reading what my CEO has been up to...in order to do my job efficiently and safely, I don't even need to know who my CEO is.

Its funny how ATCOs moan that non-ops people don't understand what they do and what their needs are etc and how little regard or interest they have for the want and needs of those non-ops staff.

[Quincy M.E.]

No axe.

If you read what I was asking in my original post you will see that there was nothing said of a malicious or bitter nature that would suggest I had an axe to grind, but an observation about the posts on the forum. In fact I was highlighting the number of comments coming from ATCOs that sound like they are the ones with axes to grind. They are the ones insulting us (non ops).

Sinse then I have mearly responded to the aggresive and derisory replies which I have come to expect.

[ImnotanERIC]

quincy jones:

Yes I could do my job if there were no ATCOs in the company. I could form my own company (with no ATCOs) and do what I do.

If that is true, then without knowing what you do in NATS there is absolutely no need for your role in NATS and you are a drain on resources.

What part of the company made money over the last week?

Air traffic service provision is the breadwinner for NATS, anything that supports that operation is a necessity. Anything that could carry on operating without a single ATCO employed in NATS should be removed from NATS.

[PeltonLevel]

Anything that could carry on operating without a single ATCO employed in NATS should be removed from NATS.This is where it all gets a bit silly. NATS could be a holding company which owns all of the infrastructure used in ATC (buildings, systems etc.) and could invite tenders to provide Air Traffic Services using this equipment. SERCO, who specialise in providing services using other peoples' equipment could win the contract and all ATC staff could be TUPEd to them. (Operational support staff may or may not be included in the transfer). It's a business model that could work, and it would be much closer to SERCO's philosophy than their involvement under the terms of the original PPP would have been.

By the way, over the last few days, NATS will have been continuing to offer services (such as messaging), which don't involve ATCOs, to the industry without much in the way of income to support it.

[fuzzy6988]

Anything that could carry on operating without a single ATCO employed in NATS should be removed from NATS


Does that mean cleaning and building maintenance staff? ;)

Employees need a clean, well-maintained building to work in. A clean, well-maintained building could stand empty.

[Angrel]

ImnotanERIC

What part of the company made money over the last week?
Air traffic service provision is the breadwinner for NATS, anything that supports that operation is a necessity. Anything that could carry on operating without a single ATCO employed in NATS should be removed from NATS.


Really? Are you sure about that? Where do all your documents and procedures come from? NSL is losing circa 200k a day because of this ash cloud yet I know invoices were sent off within the last 6 days for thousands of pounds for services that don't include ATCO's.

PeltonLevel - well said sir!

le pingouin - its a fair comment, I could have worded better! Out of curiosity, have you been around any department in your ANSP other than Tower/Radar? (not having a go, just curious!)


NATS makes money from all sorts of other avenues away from its main hub of air traffic control nowadays. The original points made by Quincy M.E. were to point out that some operational staff don't want/like change and that they make it known 'noisily' on Nats Net which brings about the divide and fosters resentment. I am of the opinion that we should all try at least, to see each others positions and see that we all contribute to the business. I have good knowledge of ATC from both sides and am quite willing to host any visits from ATCO's or ATSA's or Engineers that would like to broaden there knowledge of what else NATS does. Likewise, I am more than willing to visit ATCO's/ATSA's/Engineers to find out how ATC is evolving in the towers/radar rooms.

[LEGAL TENDER]

oh for God's sake, even private pilots getting involved!

I don't see any similar threads regarding the FAA, DFS, Eurocontrol and ANSP's the world over. What's wrong with NATS and the UK? Have we created a monster?

Can this useless thread be removed please??

[mr.777]

Does that mean cleaning and building maintenance staff?

Employees need a clean, well-maintained building to work in. A clean, well-maintained building could stand empty.Do
Fuzzy

Why are you commenting on this? As far as I know it has nothing to do with the refusal of VFR transits.

Quincy,

NATSNet is a joke. Its like PRAVDA...if you post anything other than the company line you get shot down in flames. Witness the AMAN fiasco where we had untold amounts of office people backslapping each other on a job well done, when the equipment was not fit for purpose. As soon as operational staff started to comment on this, it was game over...in the office you go for a "little chat". And you wonder where the resentment comes from :ugh:

[ImnotanERIC]

Could you tell me how NATS makes money other than form air traffic then, because I honestly have no idea.

the infrastructure/buildings etc were built to house ATC operations and therefore integral to providing atc.

Cleaning staff and maintenance are indeed essential, but without any income generating work going on inside these clean and maintained buildings, how long would they have their wages paid to clean/maintain these buildings. Then of course, they would become unmaintained and dirty failry quickly

And what is "messaging?"

[ImnotanERIC]

peeton:

This is where it all gets a bit silly. NATS could be a holding company which owns all of the infrastructure used in ATC (buildings, systems etc.) and could invite tenders to provide Air Traffic Services using this equipment. SERCO, who specialise in providing services using other peoples' equipment could win the contract and all ATC staff could be TUPEd to them.

So your argument is that, NATS does not need to provide an ATC service to make money, they could get someone else to provide an ATC service.

So ATC is the bedrock of NATS then..........my point exactly.

does anybody have specifics about profit from ATC endeavours, compared to Non-ATC ones, over the last few years? even a percentage would do.

[Angrel]

ImnotanERIC

Could you tell me how NATS makes money other than form air traffic then, because I honestly have no idea


I couldn't quote on the margins in a public forum (the 200k thing above is in the public eye anyway) but I can mention some of the stuff we do to make the money. Things like digital mapping for charts, procedure design for people like the MoD, South Africa etc, nucleus (have a butchers on NatsNet for this one for the detail), maps and charts for the aviation industry. There are more things out there, this is just a snapshot of some of it.

[ImnotanERIC]

could you send me a PM with the margins? Or if not, where would i find them out at work. So I could compare these earnings with ATC revenues.

Cheers.

[CRR]

My guess would be he's a former trainee with an axe to grind.

BINGO!

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/369145-life-after-nats-college-post4849291.html#post4849291

Quincy the point you so eloquently miss that when a non operational staff member tries to tell a LICENCED controller what is required to do his her job and and they need to be happy doing it is the root of the problem. Resistance to change? Maybe but when the change is for the sake of change or somebody who never held a licence who is probably going to score a bonus out of it and will try to get it implemented no matter what, what do you think the optics of that is?

You are very quick to defend NATSNET yet did it occur to you that the format/content/tone IS NOT what is required?

[Angrel]

ImnotanERIC - PM sent

[CRR]

;)
Do not get me wrong. In any organisation everyone has a job to do. But to think I am not going to react when I read
What seems to alienate and frustrate operational staff to me, seems to be any kind of change or progress.
No controller begrudges technology change when it is done correctly, with consultation with those who will be using it to provide an Air Traffic Service. When somebody comes along jumping up and down with what they see as the next big thing (the FAST trial a few years ago in TC;Boarding Cards to rally the troops): that causes frustration. When an operational staff member expresses a view contary to the new proposed outcome, they are branded as "just causing trouble for not getting with the program".

[anotherthing]

CRR/Yahoo - just where in the link does it imply that Quincy has an axe to grind?

By Quincy, my boldI put in as much work as possible but got chopped along the way. The fact is that attitude doesnt get you through, ability does! Face it: some people (myself included) get through selection but are not good enough (by varying degrees) to do the job.

You are correct however, Providing a service to aircraft is the bedrock of NATS - from that task the Part Private company has branched out into other areas that make money, albeit maybe not as much as en-route charges etc (mind you NERL has the most expense to counter that).

For example NATS now sells airspace design expertise, trains ATCOs for other agencies etc. These are jobs that could still be done if NATS lost the contract at all its airports and en-route.

The FACT of the matter is, the depth of knowledge gained over the years through providing the ATS that NATS does, has enabled NATS to be at the forefront of other ATC related ventures.

The FACT of the matter is, either part of the business could work as a standalone company.

The FACT of the matter is, having all those different skills makes NATS a stronger company which is important to you and me as ATCOs, and to all the support staff, because the stronger the company is, the more chance there is of having a pension to look forward to in the future :ok:

[opnot]

Angrel
how can you say that NSL is losing 200k because of the ash . we at NSL have contracts with the airports whether acft fly or not Where is NerL getting its money from with no acft in the uk/oceanic firs for the last week

[Quincy M.E.]

Yeah i take that back actually. Thats a good point CRR about the tone/format you talked about too. Tone is something that forums are not good at.

I know we all do a great job we all do it together, it just gets me down a bit when people are down on the company so much.

[Roffa]

What seems to alienate and frustrate operational staff to me, seems to be any kind of change or progress.

Possibly because, for example, most of the recent change or "progress" has made my job more often than not more difficult or awkward not less so*.

And then, the next change to the procedures I use, no doubt dreamt up by someone who's never done the task I do and which is coming in a few weeks time despite our concerns is going to make it even more awkward whilst also loading more risk onto me. Very good.

* the one notable exception in recent years is the introduction of Mode S.

[055166k]

Well I need mode S like a hole in the head. I can't switch it off and it makes the labels absolutely huge......the overlap is a real problem unless you pull the labels all over the place and risk losing perspective. The Mode S appears as red...which is the same colour depicting unattained level on my display. AMAN is [for me] pathetic.......crew file plan for transatlantic to EGLL and expect [for example] OCKHAM 2F arrival........maybe over Ireland they prebrief for OCK 2F......on first contact with London they are given OCK 2F........about 50 miles out, the frantic panic calls arrive from Terminal Control "switch to BNN 1D".
End of a night shift for me and after an ocean crossing for them.....by the way....the pilots I speak to do NOT want to shuttle around the London TMA from stack to stack at low level, they would prefer a spin or two further out and at a more economical "mid" level.
Is this progress?

[10W]

I agree that Mode S data is great and enhances safety. If you have rubbish equipment that makes it unhelpful, I'd venture that it us not the fault of Mode S but rather the poorly designed HMI you have to use.

[ImnotanERIC]

AMAN is [for me] pathetic.......crew file plan for transatlantic to EGLL and expect [for example] OCKHAM 2F arrival........maybe over Ireland they prebrief for OCK 2F......on first contact with London they are given OCK 2F........about 50 miles out, the frantic panic calls arrive from Terminal Control "switch to BNN 1D".
End of a night shift for me and after an ocean crossing for them.....by the way....the pilots I speak to do NOT want to shuttle around the London TMA from stack to stack at low level, they would prefer a spin or two further out and at a more economical "mid" level.
Is this progress?

These "frantic panic phone calls" as you put it arise from not knowing if we are going to have the levels in OCK until we see what heathrow approach are going to do with them, 3 or 4 may come off with no delay, followed by 2 or 3 with a landing restriction (which we don't find out about until you transfer the plans at Bedek. Then we count back the levels and let you know what levels or to which stack we can accept the next ones.

If the preference in AC is that you would rather spin them around some way back down L9 or for S22, down SW of us, then please disseminate that information to us via your ops department, because we are of the understanding that you would rather give us the traffic than keep hold of it.

I say this as, during the first couple of years after I validated (05/06), S23 and S22 used to throw a fit when we asked to hold out any further inbounds rather than us doing internal stack swaps in the TMA.
There was then heavy pressure put on us from our Group sup's via your LAS' to do as we do now.

I would much rather do it your way, as just saying no more is easier than talking to north, the south atsa, yourselves and the GS to sort out a stack swap for each aircraft.

Agreed Aman is balls though!!

[jackieofalltrades]

It always find it interesting how people on the internet resort to putting the word fact in capital letters thinking it grants the substance of their post more legitimacy.


I couldn't agree more. It drives me batty to see that. Although it doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with what the poster is writing, it irritates that there is this apparent notion that writing in capitals makes a point of view definitive.

[Roffa]

The problem with holding out in AC airspace is that traffic that does so is then almost never delivered to the inner stacks in time to make their place in the sequence.

Just to confirm, in my experience, almost never.

[anotherthing]

Point taken, but the fact (lowercase) is that at the time of posting I was more than a bit hacked off by the attitude of some people who think that they are so superior :)

[250 kts]

Well I need mode S like a hole in the head

There was always going to be one who thinks Mode S a bad thing, and no real surprise it comes from one of the "barking" brigade.:confused:

If you think the labels are big now then wait till iFACTS.

Apologies for the thread drift.