Light aircraft crash in Andover (merged)

[hollingworthp]

BBC reporting 2 killed in light aircraft crash in Andover.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

BBC reporting a crash near Andover with two fatalities. Very sad news.

[Mike-Bracknell]

From my sources it was nothing to do with Thruxton (no fixed-wing arrived or departed all day despite the BSB on), although it crashed near the A303.

[jpoth06]

How long before the volcanic ash is blamed for this?

[XXPLOD]

I was flying one of Western Air's PA28s today. It's not on the BBC News website at the time of writing.

[liam548]

BBC News - Two die as aircraft crashes into field in Hampshire (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/8627661.stm)

[hollingworthp]

He added that the light aircraft had come down in the field without causing any damage to power cables or other structures, and away from houses or farm buildings.

Looks at least like a suitable location to put down.

[jetsun]

From the CAA website.

All pilots are advised not to fly until clearance has been received from the Met Office and should check NOTAMs.

Okay, it's not strong, but it's advice.

[IO540]

A "clearance" from the Met Office.

Gosh, that sounds really important.

I never knew the MO issued clearances.

I should re-sit my PPL exams. Obviously the 3000 euro Hungarian ones didn't prepare me for flying in the United Kingdom.

[slowclimber]

Where would this strong advice be?

Er, NOTAM.

[overfly]

GDF - "and straight away they jump on the ash theory "

quote BBC - A Hampshire Police spokesman said: "It is too early to say whether ash was a factor but it will form part of the investigation."

sounds just the opposite to me

[150commuter]

The current NOTAM says

DUE TO VOLCANIC ASH VA CLOUD WITHIN THE UK FIR, VFR OPERATORS SHOULD
OPERATE EXTREME CAUTION AND MUST ASSURE THEMSELVES THAT THEIR FLIGHT
CAN BE CONDUCTED IN A SAFE MANNER BEFORE FLYING. Perfectly good advice and I certainly wouldn't fly at levels where I thought I might encounter ash but this is certainly not advice not to fly. Also, since when did pilots refer to the CAA website rather than NOTAMs before undertaking a flight and if the CAA think the MO issue clearances maybe they should resit their airlaw.

I'm fairly angry about this and the BBC's coverage of it as it suggests very strongly that the commander of this aircraft who obviously can't defend him or herself must have been acting irresponsibly. This is an implicit and quite unwarranted slander. I'll be very surprised indeed if the VA turns out to have had anything at all to do with this accident and though I can kind of understand the BBC getting the idea that nothing should be flying if that's what the CAA are telling them they tend to accept the CAA as infallible authority. stions

[robin]

No - the casual listener will put the 2 items together and assume that ash is a likely cause.

It would have been better not to have mentioned anything, but a sloppy journo would probably have asked a stupid question that led to this answer.

[Ryan5252]

No - the casual listener will put the 2 items together and assume that ash is a likely cause.

It would have been better not to have mentioned anything, but a sloppy journo would probably have asked a stupid question that led to this answer.

I think it's a bit harsh to determine that the very mention of VA is as a result of some 'sloppy journo'.

I think that the general public would more than likely be of the view that an aircraft which crashed during a period when severe airspace restrictions are in place across much of Europe (and have been the top story of most news bulletins for near two days) must have been as a result of volcanic ash. Most people are going to put the two together and reach the conclusion that the two are related. I actually believe in this case the media are highlighting that it is far too early to determine the cause of the accident and I think it is prudent that people are made aware of this.

That said, it should not detract from the fact that two people lost their lives today in tragic circumstances and my thoughts are them and their families. Very sad indeed.

[FREDAcheck]

Anyone with an IQ of at least 2 digits will make the association of "ash" with "aircraft accident" at the moment. We've all seen the interviews with Moody. To say "It is too early to say whether ash was a factor but it will form part of the investigation" is a correct and perfectly reasonably thing to say, and all one can possibly say to stop people rushing to conclusions.

I don't think that is "crap", nor is is sloppy journalism.

Neither the Hampshire Police spokesman nor the Beeb are likely to be expert enough to say "we can rule out volcanic ash as a factor", and frankly neither am I. Perhaps you guys are?

[wsmempson]

Although you'd have to be deaf, blind and silly at the moment not to be aware of the volcanic activity affecting us all, there is no mention in the TAF's or the UK METAR's, which seems a slightly odd omission.

[FREDAcheck]

Perfectly good advice and I certainly wouldn't fly at levels where I thought I might encounter ash but this is certainly not advice not to fly.
150commuter, I'm sure you wouldn't fly at levels where you thought you might encounter ash. How would you know which levels you might encounter ash? That's not a loaded question, as there may be a source of info I've not found. But the met office are showing a danger of ash from SFC to FL200 at present, and other sources I've found say that dangerous levels of ash may not be visible even in VMC.

wsmempson: agreed, the only reference I can see is in the Form215 info where it says "VA - check advisories, VA SIGMETS, ASTAM and NOTAM".

Which reinforces my comment to 150commuter. We are told there is ash between SFC and FL200 over the UK. But at what levels?

[A and C]

Please tell me why if volcanic ash is such a factor for piston engines why the motorways are not clogged with cars that have broken down?

The CAA issued NOTAM for VFR traffic is just the legal team covering their six!

[FREDAcheck]

Agreed, I misread your original post. They give strong advice, but not strong advice not to fly!

I get the impression from people posting here, probably with more expert knowledge than I have, that the ash currently found below 5000 feet in the UK is not dangerous to piston-engined light aircraft. Can anyone point to an authoritative source of such advice, before I take to the air?

[Jofm5]

Sky's reporting is refreshingly unspeculative and includes the following:-


Inspector Paul Newstead, of Hampshire police, said he believed it was "highly unlikely" that crash was linked to the volcanic ash cloud drifting over Britain.
He said: "It will form part of the investigation but we do think it's highly unlikely, but we cannot rule anything out at this stage."
An AAIB spokesman added: "From what we know of the accident so far, there's no reason to connect it to the atmospheric conditions from the volcano."

[nickyjsmith]

Disappointed people, two people have lost their lives here, my thoughts are with them and their families.

As regards risk to aircraft, no one is sure of the layers of ash nor its density therefore it is reported surface to FL200. It will potentially cause faster blocking of air filters, abrasive wear to plastic screens and abrasion to additional abrasion to props.

As regards to cars, again if its in the air it will block any air filters faster than normal.

Don't forget if you have carb heat, when you have it on then the air filter is bi-passed so any abrasive ash is being sucked straight into the engine, the likely outcome is accelerated wear of any moving parts it comes into contact with. Therfore it may lead to premature failure.

An old instructor of mine, Dave Eccles at aero's, taught me "If there is any doubt then theres no doubt", Why put you or anyone else at risk if your not sure ?

[sammypilot]

Had a great day out at Duxford Safety Day yesterday. Main speakers were from the CAA and NATS. A large number of light aircraft flew in and out and the Duxford Catalina did several displays. No known accidents so I guess the CAA and NATS are not concerned about light aircraft flying at lower levels and were proved right.

[nickyjsmith]

Maybe i wasn't direct enough, if your happy then fly, if your not 100% sure then wait.
I'm not having a pop at anybody, just making some logical observations about risks and hopefully most people will see that sensible flying is about minimising risk.
You won't eliminate the risk of flying unless you stay on the ground and if your here thats not the choice you've made is it?

[FREDAcheck]

nickyjsmith,

Your comments are eminently sensible and I agree with them entirely.

Unfortunately it doesn’t help me one iota in assessing the risk. The Met Office tells me that there is ash over the UK from SFC to FL350. The Notams say VFR OPERATORS SHOULD OPERATE EXTREME CAUTION AND MUST ASSURE THEMSELVES THAT THEIR FLIGHT CAN BE CONDUCTED IN A SAFE MANNER BEFORE FLYING but without giving the slightest clue about how to do that. People posting on Pprune say they have conducted flights below FL010 without (knowingly) encountering any ash. Perhaps they’re just lucky, or perhaps there isn’t any significant risk of ash damage at low levels. I don’t know, and I don’t know how to find out, in order that I may ASSURE (myself) THAT (my) FLIGHT CAN BE CONDUCTED IN A SAFE MANNER BEFORE FLYING.

It would be nice if some agency could manage a bit more precision in their forecast of ash for the next few hours in terms of levels where ash might be found and whether it might endanger SEP flight. If they can't predict anything, perhaps we could have a METAR - or perhaps an ASHAR - that tells us in more detail what's up there now. All the Volcanic Ash Advisory can manage is that there is some unspecified quantity of ash at some unspecified heights between SFC and FL200. Great help. Not.

[IO540]

You would be slightly hard pushed to "encounter ash" if the horizontal vis is as far as the eye can see to the horizon i.e. about 30-50nm.

The CAA and the MO are driven by ar*e covering. The MO cannot forecast a CB overhead their own HQ except as a PROB30 TEMPO.

Watch the situation develop over the next few days, when litigation by airlines will make the regulators sit up and listen. e.g. this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8628000.stm?ls).

[Saab Dastard]

All,

Since there's a perfectly good thread about the volcanic ash cloud already running in PF (and another in R&N), why are you continuing to discuss it here?

Particularly as you are all convinced that the ash cloud had nothing to do with this incident.

Back on topic, please.

SD

[Flyer2008]

Anyone know what the aircraft model was that unfortunately crashed ?

[vanHorck]

Strange.. BBC reporting that motorists saw the plane encountering problems...

Good flying weather, no major obstructions, on the way home from Duxford.... Sounds like a catastrophic structural failure or medical issue?

[Fake Sealion]

Possible they were returning from the Duxford Safety bonus Day?

[Bournemouth Air]

Shocked about your rambling on when two local people from Bournemouth sadly lost there life.

Yes it was from Duxford to Bournemouth.

I will not mention the type other than it may have been a microlight.

Sad day

[poolebob]

As someone who knew and has reason to be very grateful to one of those who lost their life, I would echo Bournemouth Airs comments. I find it sad that for most posters this has turned into speculation and debate about volcanic ash rather that remembering that there are now two widows and children who have lost fathers.

To try and stem some of the speculation, the aircraft was based in Bournemouth and was a self build one, although not by the current owner.
My understanding is that volcanic ash was not the cause nor was it engine failure as such.

Many people locally are aware of the identities of those who lost their lives and the wider implications for many people in this area. We would extend our sympathy and prayers to the families involved.

poolebob

[7AC]

Can anybody elaborate on this accident, what type and or what is thought to have happened?

[Cusco]

Can anybody elaborate on this accident, what type and or what is thought to have happened?

I would say that was the job of the AAIB not a crowd of amateur speculators on PPRuNe.

Even if anybody on here actually witnessed the event (which I doubt) I would expect them to hold their counsel for the AAIB inspectors.

Perlease let's not have the traditional ten pages of uninformed cr ap.

A friend of one of the deceased has already posted on here clearly upset.

Be patient 7AC; the AAIB report link will sure as hell appear on here within minutes of its publication.

Cusco

[Fake Sealion]

The Bournemouth Daily Echo website now features further news of this event.

[vanHorck]

Like always, it is understandable that close friends of the deceased find some postings here hard to stomach, whilst those who are only reading this as fellow flyers wish to find out more, possibly learn from it, feel they are justified to ask questions and voice opinions.

The two sides will bicker no end over the purpose of a forum in this matter.

The pilot was able to issue a mayday it seems following smoke in the cockpit, according to an article on the Bournmouth Daily Echo website.

In-flight fires are notoriously dangerous but thankfully also rare. They do require an immediate Mayday and immediate landing. It seems the pilot did what he could.

[Woodenwonder]

Cusco,

Unfortunately, where deaths have occurred, the AAIB will take ages over producing a report.

Just as it is not their job to apportion blame, certainly neither is it ours - but this should not stop us discussing an event which may affect how (or what) we fly in future.

So can we please pool what is known - surely that's what this forum is for?

[7AC]

I make no apology for asking the questions in my earlier post, nor do I take any offence
at any of the replies.
As I fly small aeroplanes a good deal and often behind the engine type fitted to the aeroplane
in this accident, purely as a matter of self preservation, I was keen to get some idea of what
may have happened.
From what I now know when preflighting this engine type I will be extremely thorough.
I also eagerly await the eventual AAIB report.

[vanHorck]

You have nothing to apologize for! Don't worry!

[Fake Sealion]

Is it mandatory (from a certification point of view) to have a small opening panel incorporated into a single piece clear canopy?

[MichaelJP59]

From what I now know when preflighting this engine type I will be extremely thorough.

Can you be more specific here?

Like many others, also using the Rotax 912/914 and any advice would be useful even if it turns out not to relate to this particular incident.

[Rod1]

"Is it mandatory (from a certification point of view) to have a small opening panel incorporated into a single piece clear canopy?"

No, not in a permit aircraft anyway.

Rod1

[IO540]

I don't know any more than anybody has posted anywhere, but from the stuff I read yesterday it sounded like there was a major fire which either spread to the cockpit, incapacitating the pilot(s), or the smoke from it filled the cockpit and the ventilation system (if there was one) was not capable of being shut off so as to stop the smoke entering.

Either way, a dire situation and the sooner the details come out the better.

The AAIB report is going to take a year and most of them don't contain much useful information beyond "official" speculation.

[Fake Sealion]

From the several images I have seen of the type of aircraft involved, some don't appear to have any ventilation panels set into the single piece canopies.

However, how such panels, when open, would in practice assist in "evacuating" smoke/gas from the cockpit is open to debate. The pressure differential may act to "draw" more smoke/gas from the engine area at a rate faster than that which is being expelled?

Also raises a question of on board fire extinguishers. . . .and so on . . . .

[IO540]

I don't know if somebody "around here" knows something they aren't saying ;) but I don't think fires originating inside the cockpit are at all common.

Maybe a laptop or some other appliance might catch fire...

A much more likely issue is a fire forward of the firewall, fuelled by a fuel leak. This is why the firewall should be made of steel, fuel hoses should be fire sleeved and properly secured so they cannot touch hot items, the exhaust system should be leak-free, etc. And the cockpit heater controls should have a clear all-shutoff position which blocks all gas routes through the firewall.

And obviously electrical wiring needs to be done and secured properly, and done using high-temp insulated cable.

[Rod1]

“I don't know if somebody "around here" knows something they aren't saying “

I could not possibly say...

The aircraft type concerned does not normally have a “DV” panel, but it does have ventilation via ducts down the side of the fuz. It is possible to shut them off.

I do not think we know what order the key events happened in so what caused the smoke in the cockpit is impossible to know for now. (ie which side of the f/w it all started). The firewall in this case was carbon with metal bonded to it on the engine side.

Rod1

[IO540]

The firewall in this case was carbon with metal bonded to it on the engine side.

What metal and how thick?

I could not possibly say...

Pot and black comes to mind, following recent posts on Flyer by the two of you ;)

[vanHorck]

uuuuhhhhhhhhhh IO540

I'm glad we're back on topic here discussing whatever we can learn from this accident.

What type of craft was involved? Does this type have a history of fires?
Engine type?

[Rod1]

"Does this type have a history of fires?"

No

"Engine type?"

Rotax 912ULS

Rod1

[rans6andrew]

I understand it has a history of tailplanes ('tis a T tail?) coming off in flight.

I don't know why the type secrecy, the pilot and his companion have both been named in the press and G-INFO only links one microlight to either of them. 2 + 2 = 4.

Rans6....

[Rod1]

“I understand it has a history of tailplanes ('tis a T tail?) coming off in flight.”

If one incident in the entire fleet is “history”…

I was asked not to make the type public, but you can work it out.

Rod1

[JW411]

I simply cannot understand the need for all this secrecy. Who exactly asked you to keep quiet about which sort of aircraft was involved?

A very strange reaction indeed.

[MCR01]

The crash A/C was G-TOOT a Dyn'Aero MCR01 VLA version; 100hp Rotax engined. This type does not have a history of tailplane failure; there are hundreds of MCR01 flying on the continent with no known tailplane failures.

A single UK registered microlight version of the MCR01 did loose a tailplane; this particular A/C had a chequered history; PM me if you need more details.

[Rod1]

“there are hundreds of MCR01 flying on the continent with no known tailplane failures. “

Around 575 ish flying world wide with a very good safety record.

The one that did fail had been crashed and had non standard repair brackets fitted to the tail.

Non of which has any relevance to this tragic accident.

Rod1

[Timothy]

I have had three fires in the air and all were cockpit fires (one ADF, one electric trim, one main bus wiring.) All on different types (HS125, Chieftain, Aztec respectively.)

[IO540]

Were all 3 "maintained" by the same company? What was the age of the piston twins?

[MichaelJP59]

From what I now know when preflighting this engine type I will be extremely thorough.

7AC, just going back to this again, you seemed to imply that from what you know about this incident there was something unusual that operators of this engine ought to be checking thoroughly in their preflight checks - is that what you meant and could you be more open?

[bingoboy]

I am sure the AAIB will be thorough and hopefully prompt on this tragedy.
Have seen a couple of aircraft suffer engine fires (carb area) on the ground at start up and both extinguished promptly with an extinguisher - one a Cessna 182 and one a Rotax 912 homebuilt.
Somewhat worried by reference in a banbi buyers guide to the possibility of leaking fuel tank seams so I am sure the relevant people know about this.
Sad end to fellow fliers.

[7AC]

MichaelJP,
I had no inside information on this accident but when a light aircraft comes down like that
I am always keen to know the circumstances as even the gossip can teach something.
With the Rotax I have always been nervous about exhaust and fuel fittings when I watch how they shake so much on start-up and shutdown.
Recently on inspection the exhaust on my Champ had an ugly crack in the exhaust and it was only spotted after another owner casually mentioned one on his Cub.
I suppose we just have to live and learn, and try to postpone the appointment with the Grim Reaper as long as possible.

[aviate1138]

7AC

If you have a slipper clutch on your 912ULS then maybe Conrad Beale can help.

ConAir Soft Start Module SSM (http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/conair-soft-start-module-ssm-735-p.asp)

My SkyArrow [Rotax 912UL] had a Beale family device fitted to augment carb heat and it was truly amazing. Carb icing just never happened again. Good firm to deal with.

No commercial connections, just a happy customer.

[MichaelJP59]

With the Rotax I have always been nervous about exhaust and fuel fittings when I watch how they shake so much on start-up and shutdown.


Agree about that, when mine stops it does so extremely abruptly, which no doubt puts stress on all the fittings.

[bingoboy]

Rotax exhausts tend to be have springs (with wire safety locking) holding components together so I imagine that these would help cushion any effects seen on some of the higher compression Ss.

[Timothy]

Were all 3 "maintained" by the same company?No, three different companies at three different airfields.
What was the age of the piston twins?One young (say 5 years at the time), one older (about 20 at the time). The jet and the Chieftain were on PT ops the Aztec was being flown privately but on a PT C of A.

As I keep saying, Peter, one day an aeroplane will bite you, and you will realise that "maintenance" and "youth" are no great protection. I fear that you won't believe me until you experience it! :)

[IO540]

I never said otherwise. How could one?

But good maintenance and educated engine management practices improve the odds.

[twheeler]

Guys,

I can tell you now that this plane was in absolute tip top condition. Both on board were experienced pilots and very precise men (I know as one of them was my father). I am keen to understand people's theory on this, especially seeing as how another MCR-01 crashed under almost identical circumstances just 4 years ago according to AAIB in Lymington.

[Rod1]

twheeler

Condolences for your loss.

“MCR-01 crashed under almost identical circumstances just 4 years ago according to AAIB in Lymington.”

I am not aware of another similar accident to your fathers. The only similar incident of smoke in the cockpit (of an MCR01) that I could find was a French aircraft which had an electrical fire. The aircraft made a precautionary and no one was hurt.

Having looked up the Lymington incident the AAIB report indicated;

“The technical examination eliminated mechanical or structural failure as a cause of the accident but concluded that a partial engine failure may have contributed to it. Post mortem results raised the possibility that the pilot may have been medically incapacitated prior to the accident itself.”

Given that in your fathers case there was a radio call indicating smoke in the cockpit it is unlikely that the incidents were caused by the same issue.

Rod1

[twheeler]

Yes - but it also said that there was a very short time from a normal radio call and the crash leaving the pilot with little chance to report a may-day in the previous case. I thought from the report that they intimated engine problems and a stall/spin in a similar way? I must admit I have only skim-read it at the moment as it was a bit too much to take in completely.

I guess I need to wait for the official AAIB report but I am very keen to understand how something could go so wrong so quickly - presumeably with the engine or the wiring that puts you into a spin situation. My Dad had told me just the other day how twitchy those type of planes are how you just can't recover them from spins hence the encouraged use of parachute recovery systems on most of these LSA type planes.

Are there historic problems with these Rotax engines that lead to cockpit fires?

One thing that does make me smile in all this is that they were both excited to, and managed to, fly straight across stansted airport which is unheard of but clearly only possible when all commercial airspace is shut for the ash!

[MCR01]

twheeler
I suggest you stop posting and use your time to actually read the AAIB report on the earlier UK MCR01 accident.
Incidentally the MCR01 series aircraft are not "LSA types".
The MCR01 recovers reliably and instantly from an incipient spin. I would not descibe the handling as "twitchy"; the handling is delightful.

[subsonicsubic]

MCR01

May I suggest YOU read the thread again. Someone has just lost their father in an air accident and is trying to come to terms with that. Read again your response and ask youself if it is appropriate given the circumstances.

:mad:!

[Gyronut]

I'm with you on this Subsonicsubic.

MCR01 get off your high horse and understand that people have sadly died. A guy on here is trying to come to terms with it and the last thing he or even us need to read is snotty posts from someone trying to extol the the properties of an aircraft type that crashed.

Condolences to twheeler, I hope it's not you that has a wedding coming up soon.
In support of twheelers comment about MCR 01 (LSA)

The MCR 01 Sportster ULC(LSA) Ultralight is a side by side two-seater airplane with incredible performance and capability. Fast and agile, the VLA was specially designed to reach top speed while providing the most enjoyable experience to pilots... taken directly from a pdf file which can be seen at http://online.simmarket.com/afsdesign/mcr/MCR_English.pdf

Also mentioned here at AFS Design - MCR-01 Ultralight - FlightSim Pilot Shop (http://www.fspilotshop.com/product_info.php?products_id=1855)

[Rod1]

MCR01 Your post is very harsh. twheeler is probably not qualified as a pilot but is trying to make sense of his fathers death. He is struggling to do this and is making unsurprising technical errors, but his attempt is understandable and should treated with respect.

Rod1

[twheeler]

Thank you Gryonut. Yes, it is me with the wedding but curious how you know that!

I can only go by my Dads comments on previous flights which he is perfectly entitled too as are you Mr MCR01 but please don't tell me he was wrong!! I too am a pilot (although only PPL) as was my Dad and he commented about the plane being a very twitchy plane to fly and to quote him "not a plane for a novice" when comparing to traditional PA-28 / 150's. That's not detracting from the brilliance of the plane or how much amazing fun they had in it. He also used words such as incredible to describe it and it was something I would have loved the opportunity to go for a flight in. We were in the process of looking at the new Piper Sport Cruiser which is partly why he went to Duxford that day as one was supposed to be on display.

I was also very much under the impression that these aircraft simply don't do spins hence the optional parachutes but whatever! Nothing changes the outcome on this one does it!!

I am still very curious as to the circumsances that put a plane into a (from witness opinion only) 3 rotation spin and then steep nose dive. Knowing from experience the recovery from spins is nose down, build speed, wings level, pull up which kind of follows through here with just a lack of time for the important final part! But how they get into a spin I can only imagine comes from a potential base to final turn on entry to the field which goes wrong. If the reported fault lies with the engine / electrics and not with control surfaces I struggle to see how anything failing on this would induce the spin? That said, please do not get me wrong and think I am in anyway implying pilot error. I have the utmost respect for him and am 100% confident that he was a precise and incredibly able man (leading surgeon!) who did everything in his power to get that plane down safely. It is just in my lack of technical understanding that I'm curious to know if, for example, the engine shutdown mid turn resulting in a distinct lack of power if that sort of thing could induce spin?

Appreciate your comments.

Tom

[twheeler]

Rod1,

Would you mind letting me know (privately I guess) your connection to this incident as you seem to have a fair bit of inside info? Are you a friend of "Andy & Peter"??

Tom

[Rod1]

twheeler

You have a PM.

Rod1

[Gyronut]

twheeler

pm sent

Gyronut