Paper free cockpits

[Pace]

Can anyone make recommendations on an economical way of bringing data into the cockpit rather than paper and the legalities of doing so ?

I hate updating those jepps or aerads :ugh:

I am looking at a mobile rather than fixed sytem so anything new on the way which I can push at my Owner without costing him a fortune while being legal.

the aircraft is a steam driven Citation 550 so no fancy anything already there.

Pace

[AEST]

Check out http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/411221-best-portable-gps-approach-plates.html

Legality is not an issue with FAA unless you use a screwdriver. JAA?

You don't run on steam unless you have pistons pushing you.

[Pace]

You don't run on steam unless you have pistons pushing you.

I am sure THE owner would be delighted if we could ;)

Steam driven to me means its a Citation from Early 1980s NOT an all singing and dancing new generation type but still fun to fly nicely cared for and with loads of character :E

Thanks

Pace

[AEST]

I am sure my owner would be delighted if we could http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gifWho owns you? Uncle Sam? :ooh:

[NuName]

I use a tablet PC with a remote Garmin GPS sensor, Jeppview and flightdeck package with a small portable printer. Print your hard copies for a flight, keeps you legal, very versatile system and update on line. Your enroute charts will come by post. This gives you a good flight planning program as well. There are a lot of opinions on this subject but this works for me and its inexpensive.

[SNS3Guppy]

Hard copies of the plates aren't required to be legal.

I fly globally without printed charts; it's all on the EFB.

[NuName]

If your electronic system is not approved by your aviation authority, as far as they are concerned it does not exist. If it is approved it will be considerably more expensive than what I previously described. Also, I would NOT encourage any pilot to rely solely on a system such as I described in serious IMC, or otherwise for that matter. Shooting an approach with a PC on your lap can be interesting to say the least. And of course PC's always give you what you want when you want it. Hmmnnnn:confused:

[Global Warrior]

If you get Jeppview, you can use the options to only print out your list of favourite airports, ie the ones you go to regularly, and then when you get new discs, every 2 weeks, it will allow you to print out only the amendments for your list of favourites. Therefore you have hardly any updating to do but still have all the plates for all the airfields in your geographic area available in case you go somewhere different.

Jeppview is updated either via a CD or online and the subscription price is around th same as for the paper amendment service so potentially your only expenditure is a laptop and a printer

[SNS3Guppy]

If your electronic system is not approved by your aviation authority, as far as they are concerned it does not exist.

Then get one that is.

I've been using electronic flight bags for several years now. They are no more difficult to use than paper charts, and do offer significant advantages. Personally, I prefer paper. However, presently I'm not presented with paper.

EFB's in a cockpit should be a set. One, in the event a second becomes unavailable, or one for each pilot in a two pilot cockpit.

The EFB makes selecting another procedure a snap. I can quickly set up and organize only the charts I want on an electronic clip. As I transition from arrival to approach to landing, I can move from the arrival chart to the approach chart to the airport diagram seamlessly. If I'm given another runway unexpectedly, I can quickly add it to the clip with a tap of the finger, and just as quickly get rid of it. Diversions aren't a problem. No having to dig through a binder, or having to find another binder.

I can zoom in on an electronic chart, something I can't do on a paper chart. A busy airport with a lot of information and small writing? Not a problem. I can even rearrange the chart to show only those parts of the chart that I wish to see on a procedure, without having to look over parts I don't need.

When it comes to updates, the current update is loaded, plus the next when it comes in. At revision time, the system switches over to the new database, automatically, without my need to file any paper or do anything but check effectivity of the new database.

I fly internationally, and have to maintain charts globally. That's a lot of charts. The EFB drastically reduces the volume of those charts. Presently I keep paper enroute charts, as I've been unimpressed with them in an electronic format. I like being able to handle the larger chart, especially when trying to scan along a lengthy route or airway. I've had enroute capability,including both VFR and IFR charts, on the EFB before, but didn't care for them.

If it is approved it will be considerably more expensive than what I previously described.


I didn't actually see a cost described previously...however, the cost of doing business is the cost of doing business. If one isn't going to get an approved system, then why bother at all?

If you're doing very little flying, printing the charts every time will work. I've done that, too...in fact we did that for over a year while getting our current system approved. We used the EFB and the printed charts. Unfortunately to print the volume of charts needed for each flight, with the frequency of flights, we may have killed off an entire forest just to make the paper. Presently, that's not an issue. We have the option of printing charts at any time, including during the flight, and we can send to the printer directly from our sets in the cockpit...but we don't. With the EFB, it isn't necessary.

[Sepp]

Pace You don't mention whether you're flying on an N-reg, or trying to turn a profit under the combined encumbrance of Cash-and-Aggro plus EASA. If the latter, take a look at this: http://www.easa.eu.int/ws_prod/c/doc/jaa/TGL-36.pdf

Class 1 EFBs may not pose a problem, procurement-wise, but provision of a "certified power source" and satisfying the requirements in 6.1.1. (a) may well stop you in your tracks - depending on how much your a/c owner wants to throw at the problem. Have fun, also, complying will everyting in Section 7 and with finding the dosh for the inevitably huge charge C&A will levy for their time and effort.

If money is no object, how about Cessna's glass cockpit refit ('twas reported in Direct Approach a couple of months back)? Not yet EASA certified afaik but you never know - stranger things have happened...

[NuName]

What didnt you understand about "economical" your suggestion requires 2 complete, approved separate systems, and that would be fun in a Citation cockpit. The cost of doing business globaly for you maybe should not be compared with a chap operating a C550. If you bother to read the original post then you might be able to make some relevant comments. There is an avionic upgrade also that would incorporate a dual EFB system ensuite, trouble is, it would cost more that the value of the aircraft. As I said earlier, There are a lot of opinions on this subject but this works for me and its inexpensive.

[SNS3Guppy]

What didnt you understand about "economical" your suggestion requires 2 complete, approved separate systems, and that would be fun in a Citation cockpit.

I'm not your dear guppy, brightspark, and I understand very well the economics in equipping the airplane. Fun is as fun does, but two EFB's in a cockpit the size of a Citation is no problem whatsoever...nor is equipping them with a power source, providing for their updating, their use, or their maintenance. Been there, done that...many times.

Obviously, you haven't.

The cost of doing business globaly for you maybe should not be compared with a chap operating a C550.


The cost of doing business is the cost of doing business, and I've used dual EFB setups in turboprops and turbojets, domestically and internationally. I cited my present example because that's what I'm using this moment. I've used them in turboprop corporate equipment with great success. Again, obviously you haven't. Lacking the experience then, perhaps you simply don't know. Many cockpits in light turbojet aircraft today fly paperless using electronic flight bags, and many excellent, approved options are available for installation.

If you bother to read the original post then you might be able to make some relevant comments.


I did read the original post, and my comments are quite relevant. That you have no experience with the subject perhaps means you're not qualified..perhaps not qualified to understand, perhaps not qualified to recommend, perhaps not qualified to comment. It doesn't mean that my comments aren't relevant...as I'm referring precisely to that requested by the original poster.

Two Electronic Flight Bags in a cockpit are a modest investment. In turn, they free up considerable weight and space that would ordinarily be taken up by many volumes of Jepp charts. They're light weight, fit easily under a seat or between the seat and the pedestle, or in a drawer. Outfitting them with an electrical supply is a simple thing, easily done, and not a complex undertaking. Using the EFB reduces charting errors from mistakes made during revision updates. No more lost charts. No more fumbling for charts during a diversion, or realizing that the volume one needs is under a rear seat or in the baggage. No more having only one chart for both pilots. No more tying up a flight crew doing updates, when the crew could be doing something else. No more having to worry about catching up with updates while on the road or having the updates catch up with you. Updates are simple. In addition, the EFB can carry additional information, such as checklists, maintenance publications, etc.

There is an avionic upgrade also that would incorporate a dual EFB system ensuite, trouble is, it would cost more that the value of the aircraft.


Which is irrelevant to the request of the original poster, and something that YOU suggested, not me. Therefore, your input on the subject is irrelevant, isn't it? Seems you got that backward.

Going paperless means getting EFB's. These do NOT cost more than the aircraft...dual EFB's can be had for several thousand dollars. A very small, modest investment. You know of a CE-550 that costs less than several thousand dollars? Impressive.

The original poster asked about going paperless. This means EFB's. Using a laptop and printing charts isn't paperless. What part of that do you not understand?

[NuName]

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers old chap, my experience, by the way, is quite considerable on this subject with approved, built in and non approved EFB systems. World wide over many years working with both wealthy and not so wealthy operators. Your post directed to me was most entertaining, but, however, not very informative. The cost of doing business for one may not be acceptable to another, thats why some survive and others do not. As for the benefits of an EFB, I am most grateful for you pointing that out, most of us out here in the world might have let those things escape us.
Get real guppy, most all of us know what they do, we all know what they look like, how they work, what they cost, and the installation problems with our individual aviation authorities. The guy asked for a suggestion for a simple, inexpensive fix for a paperless cockpit. In this business that just means that you don't have to carry all the paper but you have access to it. I will not respond further, I am not interested in a bun fight with you.

[AEST]

If your electronic system is not approved by your aviation authority, as far as they are concerned it does not exist.

Correct, in as far as the FAA is concerned with respect to the traditional charts, the paper does not exist since it has not been "approved" by them.

Seriously, they require you to have current charts, but do not specify the support on which these be displayed. If you "install" (screwdriver rule) the system it does need to be approved. Since neither the paper nor the EFB needs to be installed using any tool neither require approval. (The power supply most likely will require some approval, but that's a breeze)

Rules may differ in JAA-land and most likely you should take your current paper charts to them to have their blessing that you're using the correct paper type (grammage, size, whiteness, etc) for support of your charts. :ugh:

Now seriously, you should not be entirely dependent on anything that has Mr Gates software in it. Either print out paper copies, make a PDF copy for an electronic book (iRex Iliad), or get a second EFB for your co-pilot.

[SNS3Guppy]

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers old chap,

I'm not your chap either, mate, and my feathers remain unruffled. I'm still curious how you arrive at an EFB installation using a couple of 2,000 dollar units, that costs more than that CE-525. Quite an imagination you have there...or is just perhaps creative mathematics, gone wrong?

[His dudeness]

Now seriously, you should not be entirely dependent on anything that has Mr Gates software in it.

Well, the Citation Sovereign runs on Windows 2000 (the entire avionics, MAU 1-4).
Scary, innit?

Nuname, Guppy please do go on, I just made me some popcorn...

[Pace]

Thanks all for the information which has been very useful. I think 2 EFBs for stored data plus printed trip kits and paper enroute charts is the most practical for my operation.

i dont know whether there is any mileage in the new I pad?

My next problem is that the Citation has a fairly packed panel and gets its GPS nav from a King 90B.

Apart from being a pain loading the points it could really do with updating to some sort of low cost FMS.

There is room on the centre console between the pilots. Any recommendations for a LOW Cost unit which will do the job.

I have been advised that Universal are releasing a small unit which is designed for the lower end of the market? But maybe there is something else?

Again thanks! lively ;)

Pace

[SNS3Guppy]

A full FMS, new, is an expensive proposition. However, depending on how far you want to go and how much you want to include, there are very inexpensive nav and communications options that you can use.

I used a Garmin 430 and 530 in a Lear 35 and it did very well. I'd prefer a UNS for that application, but the Garmins did fine.

GNS units are less in favor these days; you may be able to pick some up for less change than more up to date systems. Then again, depending on how much you want to spend, you can outfit the entire panel as glass, and include a FMS with the works for a price...and depending on how close you want to come to that, the price goes down from there.

The best bet is to identify the specifics of what you want, and sit down with an avionics shop to explore the options and their recommendations. As pilots, we'd love to have all sorts of gadgets in the airplane, but it's not always cost effective, and the installation isn't always practical. With the wide array of avionics options available today, some of the slightly older systems are being replaced, and can be had for an excellent value. A collins 85 EFIS suite can be a bargain if you get it as a used unit in something that's upgraded. Check with your avionics shop to see what they have available and what they recommend.

[johns7022]

1- Printing charts is for idiots that hope they don't have to divert when they have a pres/engine problem half way to their destination. You just can't print out all the charts you really will need. If you over night and the boss wants to go someplace unplanned, is there is a printer in the hotel?

2- EFBs are perfect for the Global 135 op, every chart on earth, but it's $1500 year for the subscription, and $20k+ install...that's big jet stuff...if they can pony up $20 mil for a plane, EFBs, HUDs, ect...why not.

3- Costwise...domestic US in a Citation, I'll take NOAA charts...$150 yr, full US. Put half the US behind the seat, the other half up in the nose. Trip kits for Mexico and Canada. If a guy is typicaly only doing half the US..get's even cheaper.....not everyone is comfy going down to mins with these charts, but for me they are the bomb.

I did alot of contract flying and you just don't know when ground will give you different SID or this or that jet will have current charts on board...you show up with what you have to make the job work. NOAA digital is pretty cool as well...executed plenty of approaches with an NOAA chart on my laptop, plugged into the 12v...it's not an EFB but it gives you a nice 15" approach chart display..works for me.

Call me old school, but most of the toys on these planes is more hassle then it's worth and tends to get the pilots more busy then they have to be...taught plenty of owners how to fly their jets, many of which showing me some toy, while they blow through the localizer..

Give me a hand held GPS, LOC/GS and some NOAA charts...done.

[SNS3Guppy]

2- EFBs are perfect for the Global 135 op, every chart on earth, but it's $1500 year for the subscription, and $20k+ install...that's big jet stuff...if they can pony up $20 mil for a plane, EFBs, HUDs, ect...why not.

You make it sound as though an EFB is the lap of luxury, unattainable by those in a lowly Citation.

EFB's are in use in Cessna 172s. I used them in a fleet of turboprop aircraft. You seem to think that a Citation only needs enough to cover a small portion of domestic flying. In turboprop equipment, I found I needed and utilized the entire country, plus surrounding countries...and I used them constantly. We freed up considerable weight and space when we eliminated the paper charts. An EFB isn't a HUD, and it isn't exotic. It's a basic piece of cockpit equipment; it's another way to display charts, albeit a considerably more efficient one.

An EFB isn't a "rich kid's toy," but a tool, and is a representation of an aeronautical chart. The pilot in question isn't a "rich kid," but a forum member who specifically asked for recommendations on a paperless system.

[galaxy flyer]

I don't see the problem here. Purchase two Fujitsu tablet computers and run JeppView/Flite Deck--done! About $5000 plus the Jepp subscriptions. And you can take them to the hotel for flight planning, surfing the web, Ppruning or your fave porn. Works in anything, just have a STC for power outlets to recharge them.

GF

[NuName]

When I'm in the states I also purchase the NOAA charts so I don't have to be an idiot printing them out. Unfortunately, here in Europe, we don't have the luxury of something like that. We have to subscribe for our plates and charts so the money is not an issue, we have to pay anyway. If you had to update the NOAA charts on a regular basis for the entire USA, or the world even, I think you would very quickly change your mind and start printing (like an idiot) what you need, when you need it. I have a Cannon portable printer connected via bluetooth to the EFB, at the tap of my finger the let down plates I need are printed, just can't get the EFB to stay in the chart clip on the column:confused:

With the Jeppessen disc's loaded into a tablet PC you get access to all the plates, very accurate flight planning, and, with the addition of a $100 GPS remote sensor, a moving map display to equal any other. I have had a few dark nights over Africa, dog tired, being vectored all over. To see the a/c position displayed on an area chart is very, very nice indeed.

Seriously, you guy's over there don't know how lucky you are, here, no NOAA, we get charged for anything remotely connected to aviation, and don't even think about the price of gas:eek:

[SNS3Guppy]

I will not respond further,

Clearly not the case.

If you had to update the NOAA charts on a regular basis for the entire USA, or the world even, I think you would very quickly change your mind and start printing (like an idiot) what you need, when you need it.

Or simply get a couple of EFB's and forget printing.

[AEST]

I don't see the problem here. Purchase two Fujitsu tablet computers and run JeppView/Flite Deck--done! About $5000 plus the Jepp subscriptions.I second that, I run a Fujitsu P1610 w Jeppesen Navsuite and a bluetooth GPS.

Works like a beauty, never had any problem. Still, got fed up with printing paper to use as backup and got an Irex Iliad (ePaper). If you get two tablets I see no reason to keep printing after your "transition period".

As for the iPad, ask Jeppesen if they'd rewrite their Navsuite so you can get an iPad :rolleyes:

Seriously, you guy's over there don't know how lucky you are, here, no NOAA, we get charged for anything remotely connected to aviation, and don't even think about the price of gashttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif
You forgot to mention the IFR charges and the paperwork :ugh:

[keithskye]

Wow...how about everyone play nice here?

Been using Class 1 EFB's since 2001. No problems, no worries, no legality issues. In our late model CL604, we have in the cockpit two Compaq tablet PCs, each loaded with Jeppview and FlightDeck. We paid the princely sum of $1100 USD for each (on sale at Best Buy). It's not necessary to use an "Aviation Approved" $5,000 EFB. We have a worldwide electronic chart subscription from Jeppesen, and it comes with paper enroute charts, area charts, notams, etc. The entire world coverage went from 16 big leather Jepp binders down to just 4, and those are not stuffed full, either. I could probably squeeze it all into 3 binders, but what the heck. Big savings on space, and certainly a bit lighter weight. Procedurally, both EFBs are powered and displaying the appropriate chart at all times during the departure and arrival phases of flight. Enroute, we put them into "sleep" mode. Never had an issue on battery life that way in over two years of operation now, and that is on 8-hour flights! It just so happens that we did get an STC mod to have two power outlets ("mains" to the UK folks) mounted behind each pilot seat, so in a pinch, we can keep them powered if the batteries do get low or we want to charge them up while we have the APU running on the ground.

I bought a 3rd tablet PC and a printer as a backup means of producing charts, but they are still in their boxes under the divan in the back and have never seen the light of day. For those of you who are not aware of it, eletronic chart subscriptions from Jeppesen are much cheaper now than the paper subscriptions, and the difference in cost for world coverage will easily pay for two EFBs in only a year or two at most!

If you want to spend the money for one of the smaller Flight Deck Resources EFBs, they will fit on the yoke of many aircraft (I made a nifty velcro mount for each of them on our last aircraft - worked great)!

[SNS3Guppy]

A good, current synopsis of paperless cockpits, including both pros,and cons.

http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2010/media/MayJun2010Paperless.pdf

[johns7022]

I remember running into some Flight Options guys in a Beechjet, they were some of first domestic US guys to be using the EFBs...after letting me play with thier EFBs, they thought that the EFBs didn't really replace the paper in any real beneficial way, especialy at that time being required to keep a set up jepps in the plane as backup...it was a toy.

All that said, they had a nice performance calculator on the EFBs that did some V speed calcs that was nice...

Regarding Guppy's concept of EFBs not being a big cost...for me it's like this...my experience is in Part 91 corporate...where any expense, even lunch, has to be justified...it's a tough sell to walk into an owner's office and convince him that if he can afford a $5 mil jet, that he should be able to pony up $20k for some EFBs...that will get you replaced quickly...maybe 135 and fractional are different, but in Part 91...blowing money for toys only works in so many flight depts...if you got that kinda boss that springs for HUDs, Triple EFIS, two mechanics, and 3 pilots per plane...good for you...but it's been my experience that just keeping the flight dept 'justified' is tough enough....it's not that the boss can't afford the toys, it's the message your sending...that said my salary and longevity in the industry speaks for itself...I know plenty of folded flight depts that were on a spending spree for a couple of years.....

I was fortunate to have been able to explore electronic charts..in my case, I ran the Jepp View off my laptop, and also the NOAA version from the same...laptop was running off 12 v power from the cockpit..

While I transitioned from Jepps to NOAA to get away from updates, the transition to electronic, while interesting and fun(shooting an approach with a laptop on your lap etc)...didn't really prove the benefits...more of a toy really.

Since I fly in real weather, I tended to see more opportunities for power, screen, glitches ect, when paper at worst, just falls on the floor between your feet.

That's not to say, I wouldn't still use electronic on a laptop, vaguely legal, with a power supply while not certifed, certainly it's better then printing a couple of charts, then flying on top hoping you don't have to divert to some field down there with no approach charts..

I can't speak for international ops, nor flying around Europe, but for domestic US, I prefer NOAA, the same disc on my laptop...Flightsoft for planning...very portable, very safe and reliable, and works really good for contract flying where I gotta walk up to a jet, that I no clue as the the chart status on board, if any...

Anyway your cut it...I just see things in the light that if I don't need it, there is really no reason to fight for it, try to justify it....I know pilot's are into toys, and goodies to look at in the cockpit...but I will take the salary that comes from an employer that knows your looking out for his best interest vs the the salary from a guy that feels like he get's a 100k bill per month from all the maintenance, extra pilots, big inspections, downtime and that new pair of EFBs....

[SNS3Guppy]

.it's a tough sell to walk into an owner's office and convince him that if he can afford a $5 mil jet, that he should be able to pony up $20k for some EFBs.

Try two grand, not twenty.

Electronic charts are less expensive than paper charts.

The original poster asked about a paperless cockpit. To this end, the only solution has been given, short of an avionics refit to put the charts on the panel with the primary displays.

You're comparing what you saw years ago to current state of the art paperless cockpits? Especially paperless cockpits that don't require the carriage of paper?

You're presenting the argument of a crew that wasn't carrying paperless...but was carrying both, having to update both, and couldn't have described the benefits of going paperless because they weren't? Not reallya good argument.

How about the opinion of those who are operating paperless, with a proper, approved installation...who are actually qualified to comment?

How about the consideration that the original poster has really one direction to go, if he wants paperless, per his request? That would be EFB's.

It also happens to be the most economical, efficient solution.

While I transitioned from Jepps to NOAA to get away from updates, the transition to electronic, while interesting and fun(shooting an approach with a laptop on your lap etc)...didn't really prove the benefits...more of a toy really.


Again...you're throwing out an argument against EFB's by comparing an unapproved, illegal use of a laptop, instead of an approved, compact, reliable system? Not really apples to apples now, is it?

[johns7022]

Guppy - You can't install two approved, installed, ship powered EFBs, with Jepp view for two grand..

Most jets don't have 12volts much less 110 up in the cockpit....a 12v aircraft approved inverter is $1500...not including outlets, cbs, labor, wt/bal, approval....etc....

Flying around in hard IFR with three printed charts or a couple of fujitsus on battery power is more 'internet silliness' that you only find on these forums.

[AEST]

Flying around in hard IFR with three printed charts or a couple of fujitsus on battery power is more 'internet silliness' that you only find on these forums.

Nothing inherently wrong about that. You think YOUR printed Jeppcharts are silly?

Still recommended to have onboard power.

Sure, if you want an STC'd product it may get expensive, however your avionics shop should be able to find a solution to install this legally:
12 to 32 VDC Input Adapters for Fujitsu (For 12-32VDC Input Systems) LifeBook, B series, P1610, E53xx, E61xx, E65xx series, X7595 series, Stylistic ST4000, 3400, 2300, 1200, Point 1600, 510 (http://www.lindelectronics.com/cgi-bin/store/shop.cgi/!ORDERID!/Special_DC_Adapters/FJ1655-921/dbx_gen_detail_Special_DC_Adapters)

If not, about time to look for another shop :ok:

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Well, the Citation Sovereign runs on Windows 2000 (the entire avionics, MAU 1-4).
Scary, innit?

Sorry to pull you up old chap but its worse than that!!

My FO's an ex networking IT Guy and once when on to Team Sovereign got them to admit its actually windows NT!!!!

Talking to Cessna......

FO: "Oh Sh1t - im not going to get the blue screen of death at 47,000 ft am I"

Team Sov: "No definetely not"

FO: "You sure............"

Team Sov: " Yes we've changed it for a black one.........

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

The GNS-XLS is certified on the 550 but only with the two tube EFIS from the later II's.

I fly EPIC on the 680 and also run the budget on the aircraft, I still cant let the paper charts go, find them easier to brief off, never get embarrased with ATC. I know what its like accounting for every penny, i also like you by the sounds of it treat the budget like my own money - which the boss appreciates.

When we had the Excel we looked at it but even at £5k for three tablets a jepps subsciption and some a/c mods we couldn't really justify it.

Electronic charts aren't the utopic answer you think they are.....

Having said that some sort of GPS linked Laptop with charts on would be adviseable, we got a door open caption at 43,000 north of the arctic circle simply being able to see which airports were near and being able to bring up a lot of info on all the div options quickly easily was good especially when ATC were giving us landing options which all sounded like a random collection of consonants with very few vowels.

The enroute charts only depict 4000ft airports iirc.

They're putting EPIC in 550's now, it would be expensive not only on install but your data costs a little more than a Jepps subsciption.....like x 3

Guppy - calm down it could be a good thread this if you let it

[johns7022]

Interesting comment on the EFIS/GNS being Windows based..

I managed/flew an Ultra that had a Primus 1000/GNS-XL setup...worked fine, and 'just being me' I wanted to figure out how to modify the MFD checklist...turns out Honeywell didn't support it, and of course the software was no where to be found...well I was given the link/software, that I later found out was like $5000...so I modified the checklist to recognize things like 'Enroute - Check O2/Mask' etc.

That software was Windows based, and silly as this sounds, can only be ran on my old Win 3.1 laptop, that's how old that software is.

[CL300]

Evenif EPIC has "windows" it is not MS-Windows based, the OS is called DEOS, unix like based, but totally independent; still complying to a point to POSIX 1740, and of course C2 cert.
The maintenance interface ( the laptop) is windows based (NT of course), mainly because of the commonality of the GUI and the POSIX norm. EPIC is an highly parrallel architecture, based on timing sync ( the infamous NIC/NIM); the blank ( DU failure) or red crossed ( AGM failure); are just a mean of triggering resync and let pilots in the loop. ( I can see I have lost something). EPIC code could ( and can) get all this automated.
When the all screens out happened, few years ago, ( all types); it was traced down to neutronic exposition, and memory data corruption, the solution, ( even if not satisfactory), was to stop monitoring the unused memory, reducing the likelyhood of the "black screens of death".

Sorry for the MS-Windows blokes... but besides the EFB's or the maintenance laptop, no MS-Windows on board...No Apple as well hopefully...

[SNS3Guppy]

Guppy - calm down it could be a good thread this if you let it

I'm quite calm, thanks. Then again, given that the original poster asked for a paper-free solution and that's exactly what I gave him, being the only correct answer, "calmness" is really irrelevant.

[Bugcrusher]

If calmness is "really irrelevant", surely, confrontational is not. There are more than one opinions expresed here and they all have thier virtues according to individual preferences and budgets. G-Spots got it right, let a calm discussion continue, who knows what we may learn.

[hum]

Flying a Private Part 91 Business Turboprop single pilot in Eu.
I got one of these
SOLIDFX | FX10 (http://www.solidfx.com/FX10.htm)
a couple of months ago as I was sick of updating and carrying paper charts:


Pros: light, compact, good sunlight readability, large screen, easy to read. Quick online updates.

Con:
- Battery does not seem to last advertised 10 hours.
- If you let the battery run out it can take 1 - 2 hours on charge before it will start again... :eek:
- Screen is fragile - mine broke despite being stored in optional extra protective case.
- Will only work with special stylus - don't drop it!!

My SOP is to have the solid fx as primary display with a laptop & Jepp Flightdeck to hand as a backup...

[7AC]

Hum,
It must be a bit of a squash in the Turbo Commander.
I have tried the iRex reader and found it quite good, if only I could find an easy way to
load the charts from Jeppview.
There was somebody on here some time back who said he could do it but I cannot get
in touch with him.
Has anyone mastered it?

[hum]

Hi, yes, it is a bit tight up front, esp if the owner wants to fly... however, better now I don't have to wrestle with 6 Jepp volumes in the aisle...

I load charts to the FX10 directly from the internet via jeppesen services (same programme one uses to update a G4/'530 chip). If you have a jeppview subscription I think its not a lot extra to have this facility.

Currently using a laptop to run flightdeck & looking for a better way ... what do you guys use?

[galaxy flyer]

I mentioned them before--Fujitsu tablets run JeppView and Jepp's Flight Deck just fine. We use them all the time.

GF

[Left Base]

Slightly off topic, can someone reccomend a battery powered portable printer.

[clivewatson]

You experts seem to have it all figured out. I registered a new airplane straight from the factory, brand new straight from the box.....all Proline 21 with all singing and dancing Jepp plates showing up on two MFD's , zoom in, zoom out, and all updated every month.....perfect system, everything you could possibly want!

So now Mr Guppy, how do I get it approved for use? Do you really know what is involved, or are you simply using something without any idea of what is required to use it LEGALLY?

Mate, son, dude or whatever you prefer to be called.........please explain to us all what approvals are required to use EFB's LEGALLY. Site the regs and prove for once that you KNOW what you are talking about.

I'll give you a clue.....check out the meaning of "file servers."

[johns7022]

Clive...Guppy is the resident expert and town fool that for some reasons the mods haven't kicked off..it would probably be boring with out him....

I mean the King had a court Jester, you can't just chop heads off all day long..

Hey congrats on your new plane..and don't let this place get to you.