UK Airspace closure

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Plenty of EGs today, folks!

[5milesbaby]

Wonder if they have phoned up and cancelled the AAVA's :eek:

[Flaps ten please]

They tried, yes.

[mr.777]

they have just done an interview on BBC News 24 from Swanwick Air Traffic Control Centre....funny, it looked remarkably like CTC to me. :ugh:

[fisbangwollop]

Also called us National Air Transport Service!!! :rolleyes:

[fisbangwollop]

Volcano still emmiting ash...upper wind still from the NW...ah well I guess I may hang my headset up for a few more days!!! :cool::cool::cool:

[Vercingetorix]

Heard that for all trafic north of a line from Norwich to Brecon is a no go area:eek:

[Brown Dogg]

I see the guy had been through the standard NATS management course - starting every sentence with the word so. It does my bleeding head in.

[Scooby Don't]

Saw the interview on Sky News a couple of hours ago. Do they actually train NATS managers to avoid answering the ****ing question???

Yes, yes, it's wonderful to know that you have contingency plans (though I'm willing to bet there wasn't actually a contingency plan labelled "What to Do in the Event of a Massive Volcanic Ash Cloud, While Reducing Costs and Growing Stakeholder Value") and highly-trained staff. Hey, I used to be one of them! Staff, that is. Not a contingency plan.

Newsman asks simple question; please respond with simple answer TO THE QUESTION HE ASKED. :ugh:

[jackieofalltrades]

Newsman asks simple question; please respond with simple answer TO THE QUESTION HE ASKED.

Yes, VERY frustrating to watch the spokesman avoid giving a direct answer. How difficult is it to say "we don't know yet" when asked if the airspace will be closed after 18:00, if that is in fact the case?

[DC10RealMan]

I wonder if before the day is out he/she will say "Lessons will be learnt" or "Our thoughts and prayers are with the families"

[ImnotanERIC]

I remember at the college talking about sigmets etc and thinking what a load of old s**t when they were talking about volcanic ash clouds. made me laugh today remembering that.

What happened to the AAVA's? Did they still come in and therefore get paid. If so, I love it. excellent.

[055166k]

Just checked with the CAA. NATS do not have authority to close the airspace as such, because they are merely an ATS provider. Maybe nobody else from the Government downwards had the necessary presentation skills. Who exactly did make the decision, and upon which legal framework was the decision based?

[QWERTY9]

I wonder if before the day is out he/she will say "Lessons will be learnt" or "Our thoughts and prayers are with the families"

David Cameron being interviewed at a school in Manchester earlier today stated "it's very worrying and out first thoughts are with the emergency services"

WTF !! He didn't have a F***ing clue !

[QWERTY9]

Just checked with the CAA. NATS do not have authority to close the airspace as such, because they are merely an ATS provider. Maybe nobody else from the Government downwards had the necessary presentation skills. Who exactly did make the decision, and upon which legal framework was the decision based?

But is it 'officially' closed ? ;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Only the government can prohibit flying but NATS can refuse to issue clearances in controlled airspace, which is the situation now.. Other countries in Europe probably have similar rules.

[jackieofalltrades]

But is it 'officially' closed ?

The airspace isn't closed....just that nothing is permitted to fly into or out of it!! :rolleyes:

[Gonzo]

ICAO convention (can't remember which one) states that no IFR clearance into an area of forecast volcanic ash may be given.

No airspace is closed.

[fisbangwollop]

Buisness for me as usual on the Scottish FIR sector....every man and his dog out this afternoon!! :cool::cool:

[chevvron]

Only class A airspace is closed due to no IFR clearances being allowed; all other airspace classifications are still available to VFR traffic. Most small airfields in class G airspace are operating normally, contrary to what the BBC are reporting.

[AdamFrisch]

Does that mean that we can come do touch and goes at Heathrow in our spamcans?:)

[Not Long Now]

As long as you can avoid controlled airspace requiring IFR or SVFR clearances, knock yourself out.

[chevvron]

Adam: Not Heathrow; CAA Directorate of Airspace Policy have decreed no SVFR clearances allowed in class A airspace.(the SVFR man seems a bit miffed about it)
Did somebody say 'Northolt'?

[Sand Devil]

Hehe! Northolt closed! :ugh:
Plenty VFR types out and about in Warwickshire.
Sucking in all that talc!
Wonder what the next overhaul bill will look like! :E

[Vortex Issues]

The airspace isn't closed - there is a zero flow rate in operation.

Had a very nice glider pilot ask me today if he could overfly KK today as we were so quiet, why the hell not I thought and Tower agreed. You see fuzzy6988 we can accommodate VFR traffic in the control zones in London :E

[A I]

If the airspace is open but with a zero flow rate does that mean that traffic from outside the CFMU area can enter the airspace subject to clearance of course?

A I :O

[2 sheds]

ICAO convention (can't remember which one) states that no IFR clearance into an area of forecast volcanic ash may be given.

I don't think you mean the ICAO Convention! But that is still rather misquoting ICAO procedures.

2 s

[Standard Noise]

My WM had a bugger of a job finding the ICAO 'Volcanic Ash Contingency Plan'. Scanned through it meself, dry old reading I tell you.

Dear god, SKY have a special on at 20:00 tonight titled 'BRITAIN GROUNDED' :ugh:

Desperate amount of eejits on the news all day, one said 'but the sky out there is clear, it's disgraceful that we aren't allowed to fly out!'

Oh, must go, Eric Moody's 3,214th TV appearance today is on.

[WorkingHard]

So can any of you learned people tell us why no SVFR please?

[Standard Noise]

Er, no. Don't understand that one myself.

[Gonzo]

2 Sheds, no, I didn't mean the Convention, but a convention:

convention noun 1 a large and formal conference or assembly. 2 a formal treaty or agreement. 3 a custom or generally accepted practice, especially in social behaviour.

I was referring to the ICAO Volcanic Ash Contingency Plan but momentarily forgot the proper term.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Desperate amount of eejits on the news all day>>

And on here too!!

[BDiONU]

One ray of sunshine, AMAN has been 100% correct this afternoon in providing EATs :}

BD

[Monkey Madness]

Northolt was very much open :{

[LEGAL TENDER]

have noticed that on nats.co.uk (temporary reduced to a basic single page due to heavy web traffic) we are now "The UK's leading Air Navigation Services Provider", and not a World Leader in Air Traffic Management anymore.

Must have been a tough one to win over the UK competition of the en route services to become the UK leading ANSP!!

[Paul Chocks]

A couple of queries from me:


While flying today we were refused a Traffic Service from a number of agencies as there was no IFR. However, according to CAP 774 -

"Traffic Service is available under IFR or VFR and in any meteorological conditions."

So, the implication is that VFR traffic are not worthy of a Traffic Service or controllers are confused over when various services can and should be offered.

Was SVFR really unavailable? If so, why? As a helicopter operator my colleagues and I regularly require SVFR clearance to enter London and other controlled areas. Bear in mind helicopters operate at the lower levels, where I suspect risk of volcanic ash is low. If the risk is not low, then can the ash cause damage to our cars/lungs etc?

[OA32]

@ Paul Chocks

It was probably a mixture of both with reference to the Traffic Service, although they certainly couldn't argue the fact they were too busy to give it....

I've never seen the radar screen so empty, even France was quiet.

[5milesbaby]

Paul Chocks, there seems to have been quite a lot of VFR traffic out there this afternoon so if the unit you were in contact with had many calls, your service would be downgraded due workload. Other reasons are that you may have been flying in an area where lots of others were flying and that painted returns on the radar but weren't in contact. You may have been too far from the radar head for a radar service to have been provided. Some units (ie NATS enroute) cannot provide a radar service below FL70 outside controlled airspace.

Now what's the implication?

[Red Four]

Farnborough LARS were saying they were unable to provide anything other than Basic Service for most of the afternoon. It did not appear to be workload or coverage issues, but rather that they had been told from 'higher up' not to. I wander what the rationale for that was?

NOTAM C1919 refers:
"DUE TO THE RESTRICTIONS APPLIED TO THE PROVISION OF RADAR SERVICES
CAUSED BY THE VOLCANIC DUST CLOUD PASSING OVER THE UK, FARNBOROUGH
RADAR CAN ONLY PROVIDE A BASIC SERVICE, ISSUE A VFR CLEARANCE AND
CANNOT OBTAIN CLEARANCE TO ENTER CONTROLLED AIRSPACE.

FROM: 15 APR 2010 13:10 TO: 15 APR 2010 21:00"

[fuzzy6988]

You see fuzzy6988 we can accommodate VFR traffic in the control zones in London
Nice one! I never said you guys couldn't anyway! :ok:


Only class A airspace is closed due to no IFR clearances being allowed; all other airspace classifications are still available to VFR traffic.


I thought volcanic ash affects visibility? So one might request an extra pair of eyes to help separate them from other traffic in time of need? Hmmm.....

[spekesoftly]

FARNBOROUGH RADAR CAN ONLY PROVIDE A BASIC SERVICE, ISSUE A VFR CLEARANCE AND CANNOT OBTAIN CLEARANCE TO ENTER CONTROLLED AIRSPACE.

What sort of VFR "Clearance" was Farnborough issuing outside CAS? :confused:

[Talkdownman]

NOTAM C1919 refers:
"DUE TO THE RESTRICTIONS APPLIED TO THE PROVISION OF RADAR SERVICES
CAUSED BY THE VOLCANIC DUST CLOUD PASSING OVER THE UK, FARNBOROUGH
RADAR CAN ONLY PROVIDE A BASIC SERVICE, ISSUE A VFR CLEARANCE AND
CANNOT OBTAIN CLEARANCE TO ENTER CONTROLLED AIRSPACE.

FROM: 15 APR 2010 13:10 TO: 15 APR 2010 21:00"
I am intrigued to know where Farnborough Radar can issue a 'VFR clearance'....

[spekesoftly]

Ditto :ok:

[Talkdownman]

Could this be indicative of nats' grip on things....?

[fuzzy6988]

DUE TO THE RESTRICTIONS APPLIED TO THE PROVISION OF RADAR SERVICES CAUSED BY THE VOLCANIC DUST CLOUD PASSING OVER THE UK, FARNBOROUGH RADAR CAN ONLY PROVIDE A BASIC SERVICE, ISSUE A VFR CLEARANCE AND CANNOT OBTAIN CLEARANCE TO ENTER CONTROLLED AIRSPACE.

I would presume it was a typo.

It might mean it can only issue a VFR (not IFR) clearance through Class D CTR/CTAs, and cannot provide an IFR clearance through the LTMA and surrounding Class A airways in the South East.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I think someone in NATS doesn't know what he's talking about! There were a few light aircraft and small biz jets flying over Berkshire yesterday afternoon so why the restriction on SVFR?

[pax britanica]

I heard radio interview with NATS Director of Safety yesterday evening. Never heard a worse performer, he was utterly useless and clueless as to how to present anything. I note from thes epages a certain wariness about the ability of NATs senior management among front line ATC staff but are all your managers like him because if they are I think we are safer as things are with nothing flying around at all.

A couple of examples

We are responsible for controlled airspace-well what does Joe Public know of controlled and un controlled airspace

In response to 'is there any chance of any flights tomorrow?' he said well we are responsible for controlled airpsace what companies and pilots choose to do in other airpsace is up to them. Yes. so BA are going to start flying 747s around at 5000 in VFR just because technically they are able too other than the fact that aren't all major airpots inside controlled airpsace anyway.

he answered no questions, had no eprsonality and was the eprfect example of the 'meets targets-misses the point' British management culture of today
oops rant over

[Daysleeper]

Has anyone figured out yet why ATSOCAS above Basic are unavailable?

Best suggestion I've heard is due to unknown radar perfomance at times of volcanic ash?

:confused:

[Talkdownman]

There were a few light aircraft and small biz jets flying over Berkshire yesterday afternoon so why the restriction on SVFR?
We had a corporate event with air display yesterday including B737 (nats Swanwick seemed to be actively discouraging the flight of the 737!) Private business flights including biz-jets were re-entering UK airspace yesterday by flying VFR.

Criteria shouldn't be based on flight rules. IFR can take place in VMC just as VFR does. nats have elected to withdraw service provision within controlled airspace. nats has also severely reduced service provision outside controlled airspace when, in fact, they would have greater capacity to provide ATSOCA rather than restrict it. It seems that nats are adopting a high moral stance which is now impinging upon civil liberties.

I suspect that GA will today see the light and realise that they can continue as normal regardless of nats and their Basic Service.......

[Scooby Don't]

Assuming the volcanic ash is a problem at FL300+, what is dangerous about flight at, say FL250? By all means adjust the levels but a buffer beneath the known levels of volcanic ash (and if 5,000 ft isn't enough, go for 10,000 ft!) would seem a much more proportionate response.

Transatlantic operators probably don't want to to bimble around at FL250 or below, and possibly can't anyway due to fuel burn, but domestic and European flights would be able to operate and you wouldn't be in the slightly ridiculous situation of a large section of the UK's economy grinding to a halt.

Ahh, but then NATS directors probably wouldn't be interviewed on TV and radio and wouldn't be able to bless us with their "wisdom"...

[Monkey Madness]

@ Daysleeper:

No idea... there is no reason why units can't provide a Deconfliction or Traffic Service. We are :ok:

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

I see the guy had been through the standard NATS management course - starting every sentence with the word so. It does my bleeding head in.


Now you've mentioned that i've realised that my manager does that too. It really grates when it's brought to your attention. Damn you :}

[Barnaby the Bear]

Farnborough were instructed not to provide any Radar (surveillance) service. This did not affect Southend LARS or Manston LARS yesterday. :ok:

[BOAC_Silver_Surfer]

What if the Volcano excuse was not the real one ? ! !

Ahrcanum (http://ahrcanum.wordpress.com)

[Daysleeper]

Farnborough were instructed not to provide any Radar (surveillance) service

Yes..... but why?

[bradt]

The ash cloud is between 200 and 360.

From the looks of the sat photos, there will be no change for a while.

[BDiONU]

Assuming the volcanic ash is a problem at FL300+, what is dangerous about flight at, say FL250? By all means adjust the levels but a buffer beneath the known levels of volcanic ash (and if 5,000 ft isn't enough, go for 10,000 ft!) would seem a much more proportionate response.
Is ash not affected by gravity then?
Ahh, but then NATS directors probably wouldn't be interviewed on TV and radio and wouldn't be able to bless us with their "wisdom"...
NATS don't own the airspace, they're Air Navigation Service Providers, note the words Service Providers. UK Government PLC own the airspace and it's their decision, NATS are the talking heads/mouthpieces. The government are guided by the advice from the scientific (vulcanologists) community and pressure is no doubt being applied to them not to be so pessemistic/conservative in their calculations of where the ash cloud is.

Call me a bluff old traditionalist if you wish but given the very well documented risks of the effects of volcanic ash on aircraft I personally don't want some aircraft owner ignoring everything and leaping into the sky with the possibility of their mangled wreckage landing on my head. I would assume the government has a similar view and are protecting the general public at large (plus the cost of clearing up the mess left behind).

BD

[mr.777]

Call me a bluff old traditionalist if you wish but given the very well documented risks of the effects of volcanic ash on aircraft I personally don't want some aircraft owner ignoring everything and leaping into the sky with the possibility of their mangled wreckage landing on my head. I would assume the government has a similar view and are protecting the general public at large (plus the cost of clearing up the mess left behind).


Not often I agree with you BD (well, never actually!) but you're right on this point. I really can't understand people claiming that NATS have overreacted. What other option did they have?

[OA32]

Thanks to the litigious nature of people in the USA that has spread to the rest of the world, it all boils down to ass covering The CAA along with NATS have been discussing with their legal department's as to what services (if any) that ANSP's can provide without leaving themselves open to legal problems in the event of any incidents. Also this being an un-precedented event means there is bound to be chaos and uncertainty amongst all parties involved, lets just hope it doesn't continue for another 12 months.

[Scooby Don't]

Of course ash is subject to gravity, though obviously affected somewhat more by air currents. If, as bradt says, the ash cloud is between FL200 and FL360, and as you've probably noticed by lack of a layer of ash blanketing the country it most likely is concentrated at those levels, and if it's safe for VFR traffic to bimble around outside CAS, then why is it impossible for commercial IFR flights to operate at lower levels???

To say that ash is "subject to gravity" (which it is) in isolation is to ignore whatever you once learned about water vapour on your met course back in the day! Water vapour, more commonly known to us as "cloud", is also subject to gravity. Does it come down? Yes, quite often in the UK. Is it capable of staying up or even rising? Yes it most certainly is! The ash cloud, rather than descending in one large blanket, is likely to dissipate as it gets further from its Icelandic source. Some of it will fall to the ground though in small enough concentrations to be unnoticeable, and some of it will likely stay in the atmosphere for years. Some of it will mix with water vapour and fall as rain or hail. What it is extremely unlikely to do below 20,000 feet or so, is be present in significant concentrations such as to endanger an aircraft.

[BDiONU]

What it is extremely unlikely to do below 20,000 feet or so, is be present in significant concentrations such as to endanger an aircraft.
How do you know that, are you a volcanologist in your spare time? ;)

BD

[anotherthing]

2 days in a row now - 100% AMAN accuracy - even with Easterly winds :ok:

When they said the engineers were working on a fix, I didn't think it'd be this drastic :E

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Funny that in the last few posts nobody has mentioned ICAO! NATS did not make this decision single-handed. It was as a result of ICAO guidelines... "Several air navigation service providers and Eurocontrol's Central Flow Management Unit restricted or suspended air traffic in line with ICAO guidelines."

[Scooby Don't]

BDiONU said,
How do you know that, are you a volcanologist in your spare time? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

I'll have you know my Star Trek knowledge is extensive. I'm still trying to master the mind-meld, and my wife has issues with the Pon Farr.... :ok:

[MNT]

OA32 its not just the UK its most of Western Europe and CAA/NATS has no influence over them. I know I would rather stay safe than risk flying through the ash which you can't see and is difficult to predict where it is.

[roger]

Whats the latest, any sign of re-opening soon?

:)

[Lon More]

assuming, worst case scenario, the volcano explodes and the airspace remains shut for several months. Traffic counts approach zero, productivity likewise, Who would be prepared to accept a reduction in salary?:O

[Spitoon]

Also this being an un-precedented event means there is bound to be chaos and uncertainty amongst all parties involved...Totally un-precedented. Who could ever have imagined it? Chaos and uncertainty - I'm sure you're right. Throughout the time it took to reach for the 'here's one I prepared earlier' Volcanic Ash Contingency Plan.

All in all, operationally it seems to have been handled surprisingly well. As for how it's been presented to the media by senior ATS people and subsequently reported is another matter. Still, it's good to see Eric Moody still looks well....

[roger]

I'll bear in mind all those times I've worked while understaffed with mental traffic and think of it as payback :ok:

[A I]

I reckon (from my old age person's home) that this is one occasion when NATS ought to take a serious back seat. As BD said, NATS are simply service providers. They do not "close airspace" nor do they refuse a clearance within airspace for any reason other than safety. They do apply a zero flow rate when appropriate (no staff available is an example) but unless things have changed since I stopped working for a living, that only applies to aircraft originating within the area governed by the CFMU.

I believe that there is an ICAO guideline that an ATC clearance should not be given if that clearance is for flight within airspace where there is a known risk of volcanic ash. I suspect that this guideline has triggered the present situation where HMG in the shape of the Department for Transport (or whatever it is called these days) has told the CAA that aircraft must remain on the ground and the CAA has told NATS to apply a zero rate.

Hence my first sentence. The people in front of the cameras and being quoted in newspapers should be those who firstly predicted where the ash will be and those who made the decision to stop all traffic. Unfortunately in the middle of an election campaign, there will not be a politician available to comment (good timing Gordon) and normally DTp people don't make public appearances. In the meantime, if it's not too late, NATS should tell people who told it what it had to do and carefully check its insurance policy for loss of income caused by an act of God.

A I

[Martin Barnes]

Anyone have any thoughts about the mass exodus of heavy departures from LFPG to all points around the globe this afternoon.

according to CFMU the airspace was closed and in the middle of the red zone.

make a mockery of the whole thing LOL

[Bob Meade]

Would this Volcanic Ash affect Piston Engined aircraft? if not, I guess the Lancaster in Lincs, is the RAF's only operational bomber in the UK at the moment!:D

[Scooby Don't]

The effect on piston-engined aircraft would certainly be reduced, in part due to their lower speed, though the biggest issue is altitude. As per Eric Moody's experience, volcanic ash tends to be pretty high up until it dissipates. Capt Moody's 747 suffered a 4-engine flame out twice, but in the lower air they managed, twice, to restart the engines.

Were a piston-powered aircraft to encounter that level of volcanic ash, my opinion is that it would eventually clog up the air intakes and some would enter the engine causing severe wear on pistons, valves, etc. I would imagine there would be a loss of power before engine failure though, which a good pilot would take as a warning to get on the ground asap. There would still be wear on the windscreen (though not as bad as at jet speeds), and likely wear on the skin of the aircraft. Any fabric-covered airframe could be in real trouble!

[Bob Meade]

Thanks for that Scooby - yes, there would be other reasons not to fly a Lanc!......
Bob

[eMACaRe]

Surely, it was not NATS who "closed" its airspace; wouldn't this, and all other "closures" have been decided after the National Administrations and CFMU/EUROCONTROL had discussed and agreed a co-ordinated plan of action. After all, it is CFMU who has the overall picture of air traffic in and out of European airspace......

Andy eMACaRe

[eastern wiseguy]

How much is this costing NSL/NERL in terms of lost revenue?

[ImnotanERIC]

BDIONU:

The government are guided by the advice from the scientific (vulcanologists) community and pressure is no doubt being applied to them not to be so pessemistic/conservative in their calculations of where the ash cloud is.


nanoo nanoo

[millerman]

eMACaRe,
I think you have got your logic the wrong way round - CFMU plan and issue slots and routes on the flow rates given to them by the ANSPs, they do not dictate how much traffic each centre or sector can take (as they do not know the precise staffing levels). If someone tells them they have a zero rate then they cannot plan traffic through that airspace.
Yes, they may have the overall picture but if someone says they cannot take any traffic then CFMU has to plan accordingly!! They can only work wih the flow rates given :)

[AEST]

The government are guided by the advice from the scientific (vulcanologists) community and pressure is no doubt being applied to them not to be so pessemistic/conservative in their calculations of where the ash cloud is. I didn't know that them policy wonks were all scientist :rolleyes:

Anyway, why don't you folks just temporarily declare all airspace G (since you've essentially eliminated all controlled traffic anyway). Or are you still concerned about us running into the IFR traffic?

Any chance of a discount on landing fees at Heathrow for us pistonpushers? :)

[Lon More]

Any chance of a discount on landing fees at Heathrow for us pistonpushers? tongue firmly in cheek I hope. ATC has nothing to do with the cost of landing fees, try the airport operator

Thanks Millerman, I was trying to post that earlier but my computer went TU

[BAND4ALL]

How much is this costing NSL/NERL in terms of lost revenue?

Will this be the end of any full scale privatisation from any future UK Government?
Also could this be the perfect excuse for our present management (:mad:) to shut the pension scheme!!!:eek:

[timelapse]

To those who are having the same thoughts as the 5 people who did it during my short stint upstairs yesterday:

Please stop telephoning Heathrow and asking to do touch and gos. The answer is no!

[LEGAL TENDER]

Cold the NATS internet filters be temporarily lifted to allow online games etc..
This is starting to get seriously boring!!! ;)

[obwan]

I am becoming increasingly irritated by the MEDIA referring to NATS as the National Air Traffic Services, are they not aware that as part of the great rebranding exercise NATS does not stand for anything anymore. I think somebody from corporate communications should let them know;)

[spekesoftly]

Please stop telephoning Heathrow and asking to do touch and gos. The answer is no!

Whilst I fully appreciate that ATC's hands are tied, if the current sitiation continues much longer, the Airport Authority might soon welcome the revenue! :E

[Arkady]

"I am becoming increasingly irritated by the MEDIA referring to NATS as the National Air Traffic Services, are they not aware that as part of the great rebranding exercise NATS does not stand for anything anymore. I think somebody from corporate communications should let them know"

Utterly off topic but doesn't this show what a complete waste of time and money the rebranding exercise was.:ugh:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I am becoming increasingly irritated by the MEDIA referring to NATS as the National Air Traffic Services, are they not aware that as part of the great rebranding exercise NATS does not stand for anything anymore. I think somebody from corporate communications should let them know>>

There are some exceptionally switched on, exceptionally professional operational controllers, ATC support staff and engineers in NATS. There are also some people sitting in offices who have little to do when they've finished hooking paper clips together so they come up with fantastic ideas like the above!

[possibleconsequences]

I'm not expecting the media to fully understand the complex airspace structure but it might have been nice if they could stop saying that ' no flights are operating in and out of uk airspace'. Ok, i know that's true as far as commercial pax flights go, but plenty of other stuff has managed to come and go, after all the restriction is not from the CAA it is from NATS and therefore if one avoids NATS controlled airspace...

[elandel]

I think 'The National Air Travel Service' on SKY on Thursday has been the best so far.

[Kiwitraveller]

NATS costs about 2m a day to operate. We are now into day three with no traffic and basically almost no revenue... thats 6m and counting

The men at the top are already worrying about what to do about the unexpected income shortfall, looks like another 10m in cost cuts will need to be on the way this year. At least its right at the beginning of the financial year and they have time to react.

Remember impact of 9/11 revenue reduction brought NATS to its knees financially, and that was just the trasnatlantic income. It won't take many more days of this to do the same thing.

Same problem in Germany, Holland, Norway etc etc.

Finnair are already talking publicly about staff lay offs, some commercial ANSP will be thinking the same way. Interesting times.


KT

[Del Prado]

NATS costs about 1.5 million a day to operate.
NATS receives 2 million a day in revenue.

This could eat into projected profits for a few months before NATS starts looking at a loss.

[Standard Noise]

Re-Nationalise!

[mr.777]

The falling ash could be replaced with falling £50 notes and NATS would still be able to find a way to persuade us that they were in deep poo financially and needed us to give up more of our pension and salary. This will be milked to the max I reckon.

[classicwings]

It has been discussed earlier on in this thread but my query did relate to why ALL commercial air traffic in UK airspace has to be grounded in the wake of this volcanic eruption (or 'planes' as the media constantly refer them to as :rolleyes:).

The focus is on jet turbine AIRCRAFT but there are of course a large proportion of Turbo Prop a/c in commercial service - ATR 42/ Dash 8/ Saab 340 etc and as these engines use a gas turbine to drive the propeller, I assume they are still subject to similar effects of Volcanic ash and are therefore not permitted to fly in such conditions?

[Fokkerwokker]

The thought crossed my mind that whilst the current impasse exists it would have been a great opportunity for charity, and a lifetimes ambition realised for many PPLs.

"Roll up, roll up 25 quid to put a LHR touch and go in your logbook!"

Or am I being super naive?

FW

[classicwings]

I think 'The National Air Travel Service' on SKY on Thursday has been the best so far.

Brilliant:ok:

Its a bit like the BBC saying 'We are now heading to NATS HQ in Fareham, KENT'..... Really? Thats a first- I was always led to believe Fareham was in Hampshire. Also none of them seem to be clear as to whether Mr NATS Head of Safety is being interviewed from outside the entrance of LACC Swanwick or the front door of CTC Whiteley (camera strategically positioned with the NATS logo in the background outside the main entrance). I assume the interviews are being conducted outside the latter, rather than the former.

[BDiONU]

Also none of them seem to be clear as to whether Mr NATS Head of Safety is being interviewed from outside the entrance of LACC Swanwick or the front door of CTC Whiteley (camera strategically positioned with the NATS logo in the background outside the main entrance). I assume the interviews are being conducted outside the latter, rather than the former.
CTC, Visitors car park has been full of medja cars and broadcast trucks since late Thursday. 2 cameras set up on the little bit of grass at the front. One directly facing the main entrance, the other offset to the side.

BD

[Kiwitraveller]

NATS (http://www.shareholderexecutive.gov.uk/Performance/nats.asp)


See the link for details.

NATS earns about 2.1 m in revenue per day. Dont confuse operating costs with total costs. NATS Costs are about 1.84m per day (see report)

NATS Profit was 95m last year. The execs will be paid based on delivering to a bunch of metrics which will include profit targets. Every day of no revenue takes about 2.1m straight off the profit line.

NATS could go perhaps six weeks before annual loss is incurred, but NATS is a business and the profit goal will be paramount.

By Monday 10% of the profit due this year will be burnt. Without getting into NSL vs NERL and all that. But Assuming targets this year are similar to last.

More cost cuts on the way without doubt.

KT

[MarcK]

To those who are having the same thoughts as the 5 people who did it during my short stint upstairs yesterday:

Please stop telephoning Heathrow and asking to do touch and gos. The answer is no!
Why not? Are they afraid it will break something?

[timelapse]

1. Both runways closed
2. Class A airspace and no IFR or SVFR clearances possible

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Two things made me fall off my chair laughing...

1. I quote from the BBC wweb site:

"Runway inspections took place during daylight for the first time at Heathrow"

2. Almost beaten by:

"If I was one of the guys out there painting white lines I'd be worried about any aircraft doing a touch n go while there are bodies on the runway."

[Gonzo]

HD, think they mean a walking inspection.

[Minesthechevy]

Gonzo, that may well be true, but I have an image of a possible conversation in AOSU

' Shall we go out and do a runway inspection then?'

'Nah, it was there yesterday, and I doubt someone's had it away in the night. It'll be there tomorrow'

'Well, you never know. Maybe there's a Chipmonk parked on the end of it'

'Don't be stupid, that'd never happen here......'

Well, let's just say that the careers of the guys who were in the VCR when it DID happen didn't get too dented by it;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Gonzo.. They're still wrong. I've seen loads of walking inspections there. Maybe they don't do them now, but the Beeb said "...first time".

"Maybe there's a Chipmonk parked on the end of it"

Warms the cockles of me 'eart, that one!!!! Doubt if anyone up there now knows that story.

[Lon More]

Didn't a Dove "appear" on the apron at Stansted one foggy morning in the 1970s?

[spekesoftly]

Didn't a Dove "appear" on the apron at Stansted one foggy morning

BCU slacking again? ;)

[Gonzo]

HD, during the day?

[DC10RealMan]

In the early 1980s there was a well known flight instructor who worked for one of the local clubs near LHR who would phone up on a Saturday afternoon when it was quiet (this was the 1980s) and ask to fly the ILS normally on 28L and it was regularly approved. One afternoon he overshot too late and "kissed" the runway and the BAA charged him a fortune for a landing.
We never heard from him again!!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<HD, during the day?>>

Yes, indeed. SRO for a few hours! Used to be a standing joke if the No.2 wasn't getting tight spacing.... lean over his shoulder and ask if it was a walking inspection.

[mixture]

Heathrow Director,

ref.
Two things made me fall off my chair laughing...
1. I quote from the BBC wweb site:
"Runway inspections took place during daylight for the first time at Heathrow"

As much as I agree with your stance on aviation journalism and I too often stand agasp at how terrible it all too often is, I think the BBC isn't to blame for that quote. See "HeathrowAirport" comment on this Twitpic :

Twitpic - Share photos on Twitter (http://twitpic.com/1g7o0g)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<This is the first time we have ever done a runway inspection in daylight! We do these four times a year to check every inch of Heathrow's runways - usually in the middle of the night.>>

That's what it says on Twitter, or whatever it's called. To say it's the first time a runway inspection has been done in daylight is total nonsense.

[Alsacienne]

Please lighten up HD! Yes it may not be factually true, but it has caused a chuckle amongst those for whom not being able to land or take off from LHR has become a concern.

That's why this is PP Rumour Network!! :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Please lighten up HD! >>

Me, lighten up?? As I said earlier, I fell about laughing when I read it. It is YOU who needs to lighten up!!!

[eastern wiseguy]

Airspace closed...revenue gone....people stranded all over Europe....balance sheeets on a knife edge.....Glad to see HD has identified the most pertinent point.....all about Hounslow and whether it was dark!!

What yahoo@ said:bored:

[The Civil Civillian]

Re: the Ash Cloud: why can't they fly lower?

Appreciate it may cost more in fuel but maybe some sort of service can be maintained?

It is a simple question from a non flyer. :eek:

Cheers :ok:

[BDiONU]

Re: the Ash Cloud: why can't they fly lower?
Appreciate it may cost more in fuel but maybe some sort of service can be maintained?
It is a simple question from a non flyer. :eek:
Simple answer is a little thing called gravity, what goes up must come down. There was a 'sampling' aircraft which flew and reported 3 distinct layers lower than had been 'forecast' plus some areas in UK are reporting ash on the ground.

BD

[Alsacienne]

.............It is YOU who needs to lighten up!!!...........

Sorry HD! I've had the best chuckle in days from this thread ... and I was lucky enough to be stranded at home rather than get to my intended destination and not get back!:D

[Minesthechevy]

That gravity theory will never take off.......

I just caught on Sky that a Finnish ?F16? has had to have some serious internal reworking after picking up some ash - pilot knew nothing.

[anotherthing]

Who's more sad?

HD checking in on PPRuNe to see what is going on in an industry that he spent most of his adult life involved in,

or people who are still in the industry (me included :ugh:) who have nothing better to do on breaks, days off etc but come and read and contribute to PPRuNe? :}

The statement "I'd dearly like to think that when I work full time in the business, I'd have something better to do with my time off/breaks than be glued to this website keeping involved" is equally valid!!!

[Talkdownman]

Me, lighten up?? As I said earlier, I fell about laughing when I read it. It is YOU who needs to lighten up!!!
If only they knew, B, if only they knew.......... ;)

[Dave Clarke Fife]

I just caught on Sky that a Finnish ?F16? has had to have some serious internal reworking after picking up some ash - pilot knew nothing.

Finnish F-18's..........................

Finnish fighter jets damaged by volcanic cloud (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.canada.com%2Ftopics%2Fnews%2Fstory.htm l%3Fid%3D2914603&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmilitary-aircrew%2F412155-icelandic-ash-cloud-2.html)

Interesting pictures of the fused silica on the blades on the web

[looneykeycode]

you nicked the aman gag from the comment board:\:\

[bulletsamurai]

If you guys really want to discuss runway inspections then do us all a big favour and start a new thread somewhere else. On the beach

Was it just me, or did anybody else misread this signature as a suggestion? :rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<A lot of people reading this are stuck overseas trying to get some information on what, if anything, is happening or likely to happen regarding the thread title of UK airspace closure and this drivel about runway inspections is detracting to say the least. There are far more important things happening, in case you hadn't noticed.>>

I started this thread and I'm sorry O-T-B objects to the odd tangential discussion, which resulted from UK Airspace Closure! It is NOT drivel.

Sorry, O-T-B, I just cannot visualise the father of a family stuck in some out of the way airport saying to his wife: "Mildred, why not use the Internet Cafe to log on to the PPruNe ATC Forum and check for news on airspace closures".

Sorry, O-T-B, you need some Valiums and a few hours On The Beach my boy!! ;)

[throw a dyce]

OTB,
You could serve your drive through penalty at Ice Station Beach.
It has just started to snow,honestly.Volcanic Winter already.:eek:
Snowclosed,no volcano closed,of lets just go home.


HD,
I helped gets friends home by logging onto Nats and PPrune to check the latest updates.Instead of waiting for Squeezyjet,we looked at the situation and activated plan Z.They are home now instead of waiting for them to make up their minds.:ok:

[The Civil Civillian]

BD: "Simple answer is a little thing called gravity, what goes up must come down. There was a 'sampling' aircraft which flew and reported 3 distinct layers lower than had been 'forecast' plus some areas in UK are reporting ash on the ground."

Cheers

My car was dirty from early last week. I woke up to it... might have been Tuesday 13th?

p.s Listening to the R4 news before on the way home reporting there are talks about solutions to this and one of them is to fly lower.

[Standard Noise]

Captain's Log, stardate 100419, day five and still nothing is moving in this strange corner of the godforsaken planet except for the probing spotter craft they call Oh Arr Cess Nahs and Cherry Okies. These strange little craft buzz around at low levels obviously trying to gather evidence of the work that we are not doing.
I remarked to my No2 Gertlush MyBabber, that we must remain invisible to the native scouting flights. He has de-camped to Level Two to brew some of the local concoction thay call Arr Tee. The native dialect still confuses me, it's like nothing I've heard before, impenetrable to outsiders.
At least I have several hours of rest before I must return to carry out my important research checking the Ilids for Wholes. I shall continue that under cover of darkness.
More later, Noise signing off.

[055166k]

May be a small window of opportunity on Wednesday....however, when a couple of dozen tried to make it across the pond a few days ago, none made it ......either turning back or changing destination as the corridor disappeared.
In some quarters this is being treated like a big joke [Saturday].....as I looked at my tube with empty airways I could see hundreds of VFR aircraft at various levels throughout the UK.....the regular para-drop sites were all active and I saw many climbs up to 13/14000feet. Exec jets and turboprops [not a lot] were evident outside regulated airspace......Sunday was a little tighter regulation-wise....e.g. restrictions applied to SVFR and para-drop controlled airspace penetration.
Despite reports of ash layers at lower levels there were quite a few aircraft actually flying for sustained periods at mid unpressurised levels.
Government finally taking notice......Aviation Minister has been invisible throughout.....CAA remarkably silent....leaving it to NATS [merely an ATS provider] to do the leg work.
I feel gutted for the airlines....genuinely.....never known anything like it in my controlling lifetime.
IF!!!!! the window occurs at night.....put pressure on to lift the night curfew....the last thing you guys/gals need is to fly round in a stack which could be ash contaminated, and over densely populated areas.

[marble bar]

It has really got serious, Alex Bristol wearing a tie!

[spekesoftly]

IF the window occurs at night.....put pressure on to lift the night curfew....On the other hand, flying at night deprives the pilots from seeing (and avoiding) any unexpected volcanic ash layers. I think Captain Eric Moody might agree! ;)

[055166k]

Perhaps the "bloom" around the engines may be more visible at night, and perhaps lights may illuminate reflective particles otherwise invisible during the day........actually I don't know......does anyone?
If you're flying in South and West UK tomorrow night....let me know. I'll be on 134.075/133.6/129.375/135.255/132.95/126.075/128.815......or if any one of those isn't working...127.7 as well.

[ZOOKER]

055166k,
Very Best Wishes to 'Coach' then. :ok:

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Sky News called them "National Air Transport Service" earlier!

[BDiONU]

Government finally taking notice......Aviation Minister has been invisible throughout.....CAA remarkably silent....leaving it to NATS [merely an ATS provider] to do the leg work.
Exactly! You've got to question why the government are hiding behind NATS, or indeed why NATS talking heads are willing to front for the government? Is this going to be a good thing for NATS or a bad thing in the eyes of public perception? One would hope it's a good thing, NATS standing up for safety but who knows!
Anyone hear Mrs Harriett Harman, member of the UK COBRA committee, announce that NATS is the regulator for aviation safety in the UK and that we must all wait upon their advice? :rolleyes:

BD

[anotherthing]

The whole episode is quite worrying from a NATS viewpoint IMHO. Especiallly if you witness the ignorance of professionals on the R&N forum as to what NATS is actually responsible for.

It is a shame that the contractor (NATS) had to take the stand and make the unpopular announcements when the regulator or the Government should have stepped up to the plate.

'All' NATS does is provide a service under contract - a contract that details the rules which NATS must abide by.

Harman's lack of basic understanding is a worry considering just 2 months ago she declared that the UK Air Transport infrastructure needed shaking up, inferring at the time that her department would be doing 'the shaking'.

[classicwings]

Sky News called them "National Air Transport Service" earlier!

Its funny that they keep presuming like this given the fact NATS doesnt actually stand for anything anymore..........

[Atcham Tower]

But to the layman NATS is meaningless so there are going to be understandable attempts to make some sense out of it. Full marks to whoever thought of using the original abbreviation in this way. Shades of BA ethnic tail colours, Consignia and other rubbish invented by media man and sold to gullible management! :yuk:

[Nubboy]

Just looking at radarvirtuel.com and seeing some aircraft directly overflying the southern half of the UK. Are we open for business, or are they just nipping through while it's quiet?

[Runway 31]

Is the airspace closed or not, I am more than a little confused. I just watched 2 Lufthansa 747's crossing supposedly closed airspace coming in from the Atlantic and passing from Belfast-Manchester across to the Wash and on over the North Sea. How can Lufthansa use UK Airspace but British aircraft cannot?.

Another Lufthansa aircraft is approaching the Isle of Man at this time going the same routing.

[mr.777]

You just posted this in the Rumours & News forum.

The answer is the same. Airspace is restricted BELOW FL200.

[Runway 31]

Thank you.

[PeltonLevel]

The current restrictions are based on engine manufacturers' guidance which state that aircraft engines should be exposed to a zero rate of volcanic ash. The CAA and other authorities are working with these manufacturers to see whether new evidence and risk assessment can enable safe flight at agreed levels of ash exposure. CAA update on volcanic ash situation | CAA Newsroom | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&mode=detail&nid=1861) Presumably, they can come up with a new set of recommendations on exposure, inspection and maintenance?
Is there a significant increase in transatlantic traffic using the New York/Santa Maria OCAs?

[classicwings]

Airspace is not closed. There are restrictions on IFR flights in Class A, that's all.

I think that is one of the best statements on this thread so far. Perhaps the BBC would benefit from knowing this instead of posting vague bulletins like 'Parts of England Airspace to reopen at 0900 tomorrow'. :yuk:

[Minesthechevy]

With apologies to OTB, coz this isn't quite UK airspace I'm talking about, but I just saw the first traffic (apart from the odd twitcher) in a week go overhead. (S E France)

Since normally I can see 2-12 at high level from 0600-0100 at any one time, it was quite a surprise.



....and two minutes after I posted that, the Monday Beat-Up happened. Its usually Monday, two Mirages, low level, over or very near my house. Today is Tuesday, and it was just one.Ye Cannae Whack It :-)))))

[A I]

It seems that all UK restrictions are lifted from 2200 this evening. Night shifts might be a tad interesting. What's the staffing level like?

A I

[anotherthing]

Where did you read that AI? NATS web site is stating that a review will be promulgated at 2200.

NATS website:


As soon as revised accurate information is available from the MET Office on the location of the dense ash cloud, NATS will review airspace availability and provide an update to airline operators on any airspace that has been restricted for safety reasons. We will issue a further statement by 2200

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

NATS website hasn't been updated yet.

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&mode=detail&nid=1862

[Cuddles]

'We will issue a further statement by 2200'

So, Terrible bloody timekeeping.

So, Nothing new there then. Moving forward eh?

[eastern wiseguy]

'We will issue a further statement by 2200' presumably z...ah well thats may DIL stuffed in the morning.:)

[HeathrowAirport]

All I am saying is, very Interesting tonight. From those BAW that have just landed. :ok: (going over my house)

This is not over yet - not even close.

[Alert_5]

I really hope that CAA, NATS and the DoT have not caved into pressure from Willie Walsh ( An arrogant, nasty piece of work) and the rest of the Airlines! Let's hope that we were really over reacting after all and Eric Moody was totally mistaken as to why all his engines stopped!!!!

[On the beach]

Minesthe(V8)Chevy

Mine's now a Dodge Journey - ughh. Had to give back the Charger, doesn't hold 6!!

Wish I was back home under the old Amber 25 just South of BADUR looking up at the night sky, watching the old life fly by with a few shooting stars, occasional satellite and a glass of plonk in hand. Unfortunately, stuck in Canada, with a misty/ashy sky waiting til....who knows when.

Only get Super Etendards beating-up the local French airfield, back home. Can you send some of your Mirages up to NW France to liven things up a bit?

[bekolblockage]

life fly by with a few shooting stars, occasional satellite and a glass of plonk in hand

Wot! Just the one glass?
Hear that sort of behaviour can be quite addictive.

Let me know when u have the fire lit - if you ever get back! ;)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

BBC News - Ash ban to remain for most of UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8632930.stm)

Nats has allowed for "overflights" - flights that pass over UK airspace at an altitude above 20,000 feet - allowing for many flights between Europe and the Middle East and North America.

Clearly, the BBC doesn't believe that NATS is an acronym.

Bearing in mind that flight beneath FL200 was condidered hazardous, what would have been the safe procedure for handling an emergency descent? I'm thinking in terms of, say, a pressurisation loss.

I asked the question on R&N but it was either too stupid or too difficult.

[LEGAL TENDER]

...until the first incident.

The more flights get airborne, the more likely! ;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Clearly, the BBC doesn't believe that NATS is an acronym.>>

It certainly was, but my understanding is that it is no longer and "Nats" means nothing. Totally and utterly stupid IMHO.

[Topofthestack]

The next time an ash cloud descends on us we must get all the CEOs of the major European airlines, and IATA, to jump into their newest and most expensive aircraft and head towards the source. This will aid research and when the whining of the engines, and their whinging stops, then we'll know it's not safe to fly there!

[ImnotanERIC]

alert 5:
I really hope that CAA, NATS and the DoT have not caved into pressure from Willie Walsh ( An arrogant, nasty piece of work) and the rest of the Airlines! Let's hope that we were really over reacting after all and Eric Moody was totally mistaken as to why all his engines stopped!!!!

If you knock on someones door hard enough and for long enough, I'm pretty sure they would let you in. Or call the police. I guess NATS had forgotten the local police number.

[Topofthestack]

I think that my next trip will be by boat or train!

Second, more powerful Icelandic volcano likely to explode soon - Europe, World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/second-more-powerful-icelandic-volcano-likely-to-explode-soon-1949600.html) ;)

[On the beach]

Bekol

Looking forward to getting back. Try and save some plonk for you. Fire will be lit on day one of return just need some help with keeping it stoked. How's SIKOU going?

[On the beach]

TAD

How's the tunnel? Wx weird here 23C one day, next day 0C and snow flurries!!
Will pay you a visit in the Summer with some "tunnel tips" eg reclining chair and bottle of plonk.

[throw a dyce]

OTB,
No problem,look forward to it.:ok:
I see that the airspace over the Orkneys and Shetlands are looking a bit yellow again.So much for the trumpet blowing that the airspace was clear enough and it was all an over reaction.
Mother nature is still clearing her throat.:hmm:

[Lon More]

First it was "Don't eat the yellow snow" now "Don't breathe the yellow air" ?

[BDiONU]

Tests on ash show volcano flight ban was right - Herald Scotland | News | Home News (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/tests-on-ash-show-volcano-flight-ban-was-right-1.1097970)

"Some critics questioned whether it was justified, but now the new scientific report published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences concludes it was.

Researchers analysed samples of ash from the volcano and found they were capable of causing an air disaster.
The fragments remained sharp and abrasive even after attempts to blunt the particles by stirring them in water.
They would have sandblasted aircraft windows, making them impossible to see through, and could have stalled engines.
The report is at odds with claims made by airlines after European airspace was closed last year.
Some operators said that safety measures imposed by the semi-privatised air traffic control organisation, Nats, were an over-reaction."

The researchers, led by Dr Sigurdur Gislason from the University of Iceland, wrote: “The very sharp, hard particles put aircraft at risk from abrasion on windows and body and from melting in jet engines. In the lab, ash particles did not become less sharp during two weeks of stirring in water, so airborne particles would remain sharp even after days of interaction with each other and water in clouds. Thus, concerns for air transport were well-grounded.”


BD

[ZOOKER]

Not only that BD, chances are that the 'ash' was also accompanied by an often overlooked gaseous element.
CO2, HCl, SO2, H2SO4, are all usually present in volcanic clouds, and not good if inhaled by fight crew/pax. Folks who investigate volcanoes generally wear breathing apparatus.
Welcome back off leave by the way.