ATSOCAS?

[flythisway]

Can anyone describe ATSOCAS simply for me or direct me to a link as I cannot quite understand what this is all about.

Thank you

[jollyrog]

There are four now. I think it works like this:

Basic Service : Fairly easy to get. You spend a long time telling them all about you; where you're going, what you're flying, how high you are, etc. They then give you the QNH and only talk to you again when you're leaving the frequency.

Traffic Service : When you call and ask for this one, they tell you "unable, due controller workload", then give you the Basic Service (described above).

Deconfliction Service : A bit like Traffic Service, only this one is not available "due poor radar performance", then it's the previously mentioned Basic Service.

Procedural Service : This is the easiest one to get. They agree to anything you like, then charge you loads of money when you land.


Best stick with your local air to ground (Radio) from the nearest grass strip. You can get the QNH from them too (see Basic Service) and the chatter can be quite entertaining. All of the above are very noisy and interrupt the music you're listening to on the ADF.

[Crash one]

Air Traffic Service Outside Controlled Air Space.
It is Injun territory & you are on your own!
You may get a basic service but controllers are not bound to tell you anything.
Perhaps an expert will clarify.

[jollyrog]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL08October.pdf

[flythisway]

Thank you for that--would you request those services via an RT call-you say they charge you-really-can you expand on that please?

Just got that safetry sense leaflet post-thanks

[lurker06]

You will find everything you want to know (and lots that you don't) in the CAA Radiotelephony Manual at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf

Regards

Lurker06

[reportyourlevel]

This should tell you all you need to know:

ATSOCAS (http://airspacesafety.com/ATSOCAS_web/)

[Rod1]

”Basic Service - You can get QNH, weather, aerodrome info, and pilot alerts - such as if you are to accidentally infringe any controlled airspace, ATZs, danger or restricted or prohibited areas, etc.”

There is a big not of caution on the above. On a Basic you are not guaranteed to be identified, so you might get some of the above if the guy happens to notice, but he will probably be busy with commercial traffic and you are bottom priority. Do not rely on him helping you at all.:(

Rod1

[nickish]

Don't worry about the cynics...

Where possible, if time permits, the use of a basic service is always a good idea. It's another pair of eyes which is always a bonus. Once i knew where i was but needed help finding the right heading and Farnborough North were great help. I've always found them friendly and info about other traffic has got to be useful surely? Same goes for Benson radar.

My advice? the service is there to help, use it

[ShyTorque]

My experience of ATSOCAS has been as follows:

Basic Service - You can get QNH, weather, aerodrome info, and pilot alerts - such as if you are to accidentally infringe any controlled airspace, ATZs, danger or restricted or prohibited areas, etc.

Sounds like you've often had an eventful time :eek:

(I think I know what you mean, ;) ).

[flythisway]

Don't worry about the cynics.Thanks-its the ones that talk out of their backsides who are the greatest worry!
Reportyour level-great link but i only got 12 questions correct.

[flythisway]

Basic Service - You can get QNH, weather, aerodrome info, and pilot alerts - such as if you are to accidentally infringe any controlled airspace, ATZs, danger or restricted or prohibited areas, etc.

How can they tell if you are going to accidentally infringe- i thought basic service didnt involve radar

[BackPacker]

i thought basic service didnt involve radar

It's subtly different. To provide a Basic Service, the ATC unit doesn't need radar. That doesn't mean they don't have it.

So if they're looking at their radar scope, busy giving Traffic Service to other airplanes, and they see you (on a Basic Service) heading into CAS, they will most likely give you a shout anyway. They're not required to do so, but they know prevention is better than the cure.

Furthermore, if the ATC unit that provides you with a Basic Service doesn't have radar, but a nearby unit does and they see an aircraft infringing CAS, they will call up the provider of the basic service to see if they are able to contact you. That's the main reason London Info hands out the 1177 squawk - to let other (radar-equipped) units know that this particular aircraft is receiving a service from them.

[Squadgy]

Furthermore, if the ATC unit that provides you with a Basic Service doesn't have radar, but a nearby unit does and they see an aircraft infringing CAS, they will call up the provider of the basic service to see if they are able to contact you. That's the main reason London Info hands out the 1177 squawk - to let other (radar-equipped) units know that this particular aircraft is receiving a service from them

That's not strictly true, whilst London Info issue the 1177 squawk there are are plenty of other ATC/ FIS units that do not issue a squawk to traffic on a Basic Service. Whilst the adjacent radar unit may be able to make an educated who the infinger might be working, they could be on a 7000 squawk, or not squawking at all.

[BackPacker]

True. It must be very frustrating for a controller to see a blib, maybe a primary return only, or a mode A 7000 squawk, heading for controlled airspace, with no height information and no clue how to contact that aircraft.

Mode-S has been done and dusted in the Netherlands. Everybody has had to bite the bullet. And I know that at least the individual controllers are very happy with the ability to see exactly what an aircrafts callsign and altitude is. But what still surprises me is that mode-S doesn't also broadcast the frequency that COM1 is set to, so that the controller knows which frequency to use.

[flythisway]

What is 1177 squawk please--I understand sqwak etc but the code 1177? Are there any other codes i should know apart from 77-76 & 75

[fuzzy6988]

Sounds like you've often had an eventful time http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

(I think I know what you mean, http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif ).

Haha! NoOoOo.... ;)

[fuzzy6988]

That's the main reason London Info hands out the 1177 squawk - to let other (radar-equipped) units know that this particular aircraft is receiving a service from them


Surely a minimal number of ATSUs (perhaps ideally one) should be providing a service to an aircraft when it is at a given point in space?

It doesn't sound like efficient ATC to me. Imagine the extra workload on both the controller and pilot while the controller is working to deconflict one aircraft from other traffic that is in his 'area' but is instead talking to another facility.

[BackPacker]

Surely a minimal number of ATSUs (perhaps ideally one) should be providing a service to an aircraft when it is at a given point in space?

That's the theory at least, yes. But reality is often quite different.

Imagine the extra workload on both the controller and pilot while the controller is working to deconflict one aircraft from other traffic that is in his 'area' but is instead talking to another facility.

Yes, that's the typical consequence of an infringement. Lots and lots of controller workload, in addition to the risk to the aircraft involved. That's the reason NATS spends so much time making people aware of infringements (see also FLY ON TRACK (http://flyontrack.co.uk/content/)), plus the London Info 1177 squawk, plus the listening squawks in other places, plus the development of the Aware airspace tool, plus the Farnborough LARS around London etc. etc.

What is 1177 squawk please--I understand sqwak etc but the code 1177? Are there any other codes i should know apart from 77-76 & 75

You should NOT select 1177 unless you've been told to do so by London Info. In that sense, you can forget about the 1177 code altogether - London will tell you what & when to squawk, that's all you need to know.

What you might want to read up on are the Listening Squawks. The idea being that if you are near certain zones, you start monitoring (but not speaking on) a certain frequency. And you set a specific squawk to let that unit know you are monitoring, so they know they can talk to you if necessary. Of course when you leave the general area and stop monitoring, you also select 7000 again.

Listening Squawks (http://jetbox.wordpress.com/2009/05/17/listening-squawks/) amongst a lot of others.

And of course 7700 and 7600. You need to know what they mean and when to select them. 7500 is very unlikely in a light aircraft.

[flythisway]

Excellent link BP -thank you

Is it just London FIR that gives that code-no other FIRS-the other one is Scottish FIR I believe?

[BackPacker]

What you'll find is that any radar equipped ATC unit has a block of squawks reserved that they can assign on an ad-hoc basis to traffic. Typically this is done for VFR transits through controlled airspace. Blocks of adjacent units obviously do not overlap, so if the traffic of one unit strays into the airspace of another, the controllers can instantly communicate with each other and resolve the situation.

What makes the 1177 squawk a bit special is that London Info, by default, is not a radar equipped unit (although I recall that they do have access to radar pictures if necessary). The confusion here is that a lot of (foreign) pilots, when given a squawk, automatically assume that they are radar identified and actually receiving some sort of radar-based separation service. Which is totally not the case with London Info. The squawk 1177 is only there to let other units know that this aircraft is handled by London Info, nothing more, nothing less.

[reportyourlevel]

Well said backpacker. Scottish Info use 7401 in the same way as London use 1177. There are other "conspicuity codes" too, like 7010 for traffic operating in the circuit. There is a list of all the UK allocated squawks in this part of the AIP: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/enr/EG_ENR_1_6_en.pdf (It also has details of the ATSOCAS etc.)