CRM dead?

[From Tunbridge Wells]

In the light of recent events, do you believe CRM is dead?

Reading another couple of forums, there are some really negative posts about flight crew, so I'm just wondering if my perception is coloured by the Usual Suspects (ie; the shouty posters, which I know form a very small percentage of the majority of good crew)

[Human Factor]

Mostly the usual suspects I think. Perhaps it's a "Worldwide" problem.

My experience on Shorthaul has actually improved recently. Crews are keener to go out together in the evenings and I've been seeing more crew popping up to the flight deck. Long may it continue, although the first round is starting to get expensive. :{

:ok:

[tocamak]

In the light of recent events, do you believe CRM is dead?

No. I assume by "recent events" you refer to the ongoing dispute at BA but of course whilst this may be the big issue in the UK the world of aviation goes on regardless. However from an outsiders view I cannot imagine how things would go if you have a crew mix of strikers/non-strikers and say a flight deck member who had volunteered to help the company break the strike and, in the eyes of the strikers, try to ruin their career.

In my own company CRM is alive and well.

[gatbusdriver]

I don't think CRM is dead at all.

I believe that a lot of people do not understand what CRM is. If you were to ask me if CC/FC relations have taken a dive.....then I would agree to a certain extent. There will be a number of CC at BA who will despise pilots, you will find these are in the minority, these are the same crew that probably despised pilots before the dispute, and it wouldn't matter to them that it is a small percentage of pilots that volunteered.

CRM stands for crew resource management, the definition of which is something along the lines of..........a management system which makes optimum use of all available resources - equipment, procedures and people - to promote safety and enhance the efficiency of flight operations.

It is not all about getting on great, and then going down the pub after a hard day at the office (although this obviously is the preferred way to go to work!)

There used to be a couple of captains who I really did not enjoy flying with, did that mean the CRM on those days was any better or worse than flying with guys that I liked, of course not, as I have a vested interest in the flight being conducted safely. This is how I would expect cabin crew at BA to behave, whether they like pilots or not, we have enough compulsory CRM training in the UK to understand the importance of CRM.

[bucket_and_spade]

What gatbusdriver said - CRM has morphed into meaning (especially amongst CC) everyone getting on with each other. The defintion is a lot closer to GBD's one. Sure - friendly, open, relaxed relationships enhance CRM (IMHO) but the two are different things!

B&S

[From Tunbridge Wells]

There will be a number of CC at BA who will despise pilots, you will find these are in the minority, these are the same crew that probably despised pilots before the dispute, and it wouldn't matter to them that it is a small percentage of pilots that volunteered. That's what I think's happening reading between the lines. I suppose the bitter ones will just become more embittered - there's a particularly vicious "ex crew" (retired?) posting elsewhere. I can't see what they have to gain other than just to stir up hatred amongst everyone.

[Tee Emm]

CRM has morphed into meaning (especially amongst CC) everyone getting on with each other. A personal interpretation of CRM seen on some flight decks is where the first officer sees it as a legal chance to go overboard by questioning the captain's almost every operational decision.

And this is not about flight safety; but more about demonstrating the assertiveness power encouraged by CRM afficianados.

Example: captain asks first officer to ask ATC for approval to divert 20 miles right of track to avoid a storm. F/O argues the toss and says 20 miles too much and that 10 miles is sufficient. Later ATC says advise when clear to return to track. Before captain can say anything, F/O says we can regain track now. This is not only bad manners but poor discipline and an affront to the captain's responsibility for the safe conduct of flight. CRM is not open slather for tit-for -tat points scoring on the flight deck but it has gone that way. A captain who calls a halt to this attitude in no uncertain manner is accused of disregarding the whole raison d'etre for CRM.

[flyblue]

My impression is that in many airlines CC CRM is not taken seriously enough. They tend to dispense the legal minimum, and without making sure it is understood.
At my airline on CC CRM annuals we start by a refresher of what CRM is and what it is for. Before explaining I always ask them what CRM is and why do we need it. It is only a couple of years (and we started CRM for CC in 1997) that we start getting some clear and right answers. Before, the answers were mostly "it's for learning to communicate", or "to improve synergy", or similar.
The problem with teaching CC CRM in my opinion is that the time for the basic course at the beginning of the career is too short, and the annuals are not enough.
But something important I got to realize, is that even if CC are not aware of it, they still integrate CRM notions in their work. They follow the courses, participate on simulator missions and group works with pilots, and by doing this they learn to use CRM principles without being aware of doing it. If questioned, they maybe wouldn't be able to put into technical words why they are acting in a certain way. But still, CRM is more and more integrated in our work as crew. To answer litterally to the question in the thread title then, I'd say no, CRM is not dead.

But I think that this question stems from a very limited understanding of what CRM is and why it is used in aviation. Maybe the correct question should have been "Do you think the bad relations between some CC and some pilots might affect good CRM"?

[From Tunbridge Wells]

The problem with teaching CC CRM in my opinion is that the time for the basic course at the beginning of the career is too short, and the annuals are not enough.
But something important I got to realize, is that even if CC are not aware of it, they still integrate CRM notions in their work. They follow the courses, participate on simulator missions and group works with pilots, and by doing this they learn to use CRM principles without being aware of doing it. If questioned, they maybe wouldn't be able to put into technical words why they are acting in a certain way. But still, CRM is more and more integrated in our work as crew. To answer litterally to the question in the thread title then, I'd say no, CRM is not dead.

But I think that this question stems from a very limited understanding of what CRM is and why it is used in aviation. Maybe the correct question should have been "Do you think the bad relations between some CC and some pilots might affect good CRM"?

That's a good point - thanks, I will edit my original post

[bucket_and_spade]

Tee Emm,

I agree - poor show. Not necessary at all. Maybe they were abused as children ;)

B&S

[Chesty Morgan]

Thank God! I thought I was the last one but I'm so happy to read that there are other people out there who do understand what CRM is.

Gatbusdriver, I couldn't have said it better myself.

T'was only yesterday that I was thinking about starting a thread called "What CRM is NOT".

1. It is not an excuse for the first officer to say, and I quote "It's my sector so I can do what I want!"

[provo]

Crew or company resource management?

[pilot999]

No but as a Captain you can do want you want :ok:

[Pugilistic Animus]

The "electrical lady" =captain... knows best
YouTube - Arc Flash Incident Palo Verde Arizonia 2008 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hO1s_SFHe0&feature=related)

I've posted it before, I hope everyone understands;)