So I called D&D on 121.5 today..

[rich_g85]

...for a training fix (under the supervision of my flying instructor)!

After carefully listening out, I made my call to London Centre which was answered promptly by a very friendly voice who approved my practice pan and asked me to continue when ready. I requested a training fix and the controller simply requested my present heading and level and very quickly provided a fix of our position. At no time did I feel like I was 'being a nuisance', like on some frequencies! It's reassuring to know that those guys are there, should you ever need them.

So, apologies to any airliners over the south west of England this afternoon at about 16:00 local who also heard the call!

And thanks to the controller who fixed our position - I found the experience very worthwhile and I wouldn't be afraid to call in the future if I needed help for real! :ok:

[fisbangwollop]

I know the guys at both London and Scottish D and D appreciate the calls....not only good training for you but also for them..:cool::cool::cool:

[Piltdown Man]

So, apologies to any airliners over the south west of England this afternoon at about 16:00 local who also heard the call!

You don't owe anybody an apology. Your usage of 121.5 was entirely justified and reasonable. And just to be clear, 121.5 is a radio frequency, not an airliner frequency. If people get a bit anal about it (like the so called "Guard Police"), just ask for their call-sign. If the half wit does actually pass has call-sign, complain to his company via their Ops Director.

PM

[BackPacker]

Your usage of 121.5 was entirely justified and reasonable.

I agree, BUT you have to see this in a UK perpective.

In the UK there's a dedicated organization (D&D) monitoring 121.5 24/7 with sufficient antennas to have a good chance of reception, even at low level, over the whole of the UK. In addition to this, D&D actively encourages students to request these training fixes a few times during their PPL training to get used to the services offered by D&D. Plus it's good practice for D&D.

This is not so in most of the rest of the world. Over there, there is usually no dedicated organization monitoring 121.5, but it's a joint responsibility by aircraft (per company ops) and local ATC units. In those places, 121.5 is exclusively used for emergencies and anything on that frequency that's not considered an emergency is frowned upon. In part because the volume settings of the various radios may be set so that anything on 121.5 is louder than the rest, so it may cut across other traffic.

So asking for a training fix on 121.5 *in the UK* is entirely justified and reasonable, but don't expect the same welcome in most of the rest of the world.

[Nubboy]

Agreed Backpacker, but who are you aiming your comments at? Rich_g85 seemed to have followed ALL the protocols, in the UK, for following a UK based procedure. End of story.

I know the rant, sorry debate, has been done to death on other fora, with a very large input on do's and dont's from non UK based pilots.

My own, personal, view on it is that it's a wonderful facility which we're very lucky to have, and it should be used, appropiately, for as much training as the service can easily tolerate. If this upsets the guard police then tough. It's their rules over there, ours over here.

If nothing else ppls, from a very early stage in their flying careers, are confident in their ability to ask for help early in a deteriating situation, rather than too late.

As a personal aside I remember hearing a "really" lost ppl asking D&D for help in locating Shobdon airfield in Herefordshire. Although able to plot his position and give him a track and distance they weren't able to give a physical description of what to look for. Those that know it will appreciate it can be a real pig to spot from certain directions. Monitoring 121.5, in the cruise over northern france, I was able to give a few pointers and help a happy outcome.

Rather than shouting the UK down, perhaps it should be copied elsewhere?

[BackPacker]

Nubboy, my comment was more generic in nature. It's not just UK pilots that frequent this forum and if, say, a pilot in France would think that getting a training fix would be a neat idea on his next flight, he now can't say he hasn't been warned.

[Megaton]

I heard your practice pan yesterday on the way from Oslo to Heathrow. No need to apologize. Commercial pilots would rather listen to practice pans than some of the rubbish you hear from fellow "professionals" round Europe.

[liam548]

Agreed Backpacker, but who are you aiming your comments at? Rich_g85 seemed to have followed ALL the protocols, in the UK, for following a UK based procedure. End of story.

I know the rant, sorry debate, has been done to death on other fora, with a very large input on do's and dont's from non UK based pilots.

My own, personal, view on it is that it's a wonderful facility which we're very lucky to have, and it should be used, appropiately, for as much training as the service can easily tolerate. If this upsets the guard police then tough. It's their rules over there, ours over here.

If nothing else ppls, from a very early stage in their flying careers, are confident in their ability to ask for help early in a deteriating situation, rather than too late.

As a personal aside I remember hearing a "really" lost ppl asking D&D for help in locating Shobdon airfield in Herefordshire. Although able to plot his position and give him a track and distance they weren't able to give a physical description of what to look for. Those that know it will appreciate it can be a real pig to spot from certain directions. Monitoring 121.5, in the cruise over northern france, I was able to give a few pointers and help a happy outcome.

Rather than shouting the UK down, perhaps it should be copied elsewhere?


what altitude were you at to enable you to communicate with the aircraft at that distance?

[atceng]

Fis
I had assumed that as Scottish D&D were not included in last years specifically London invitations to do practice Pans and didn't follow suit with their own invitations, Scottish doesn't need/want practice Pans,but your comments seem to indicate the opposite.
Perhaps someone from Scottish D&D would like to comment.
I'd sure like to do a practice Pan before I need it for real.

atceng

[rich_g85]

So asking for a training fix on 121.5 *in the UK* is entirely justified and reasonable, but don't expect the same welcome in most of the rest of the world.
Understood.

I heard your practice pan yesterday on the way from Oslo to Heathrow. No need to apologize. Commercial pilots would rather listen to practice pans than some of the rubbish you hear from fellow "professionals" round Europe.
That's amazing! Whereabouts were you at the time? What altitude/FL? No doubt you heard my crap RT as well then - trouble was in that aircraft I can't hear my own voice in the headset when transmitting, very off-putting! :)

[Megaton]

Where were we? Who knows! On a green line on the nav display :-)

To be honest, once the practice pan starts I turn the volume down since we were talking to London and starting our descent. I can't remember exactly but I think we were on a Lambourne 3A arrival to Heathrow probably passing through about FL300 off the east coast. We get through so many sectors in a week that it's all a bit "Groundhog Day" so recalling the details of any one approach is well beyond me.

[Nubboy]

Backpacker, I appreciate this forum has international input, and laws vary from ICAO best practice from place to place. However this particular thread has a mainly UK input. Rich was flying with an instructor who is licenced and was operating in full accord with the relevant law. When you get a ppl issued you will have passed an appropiate air law exam for the country in which you operate and should therefore be aware of which services are available and legal. Perhaps overstressing the point of practice pans not being legal elsewhere might inhibit students calling 121.5 when it might be their best option. Negative training and all that.

Liam 548, sorry can't remember exactly but mid or upper FL300's I would have thought.

Rich, glad you enjoyed the training and seem to have followed all the protocols. Keep it up and enjoy your flying.:ok:

[fisbangwollop]

ATCENG Scottish doesn't need/want practice Pans,but your comments seem to indicate the opposite.


Every time I bring flying clubs into Scottish to visit I take them into D and D.........every time they are told by the D and D guys please give us a call as we too need the practice!!! :cool::cool::cool:

[DX Wombat]

every time they are told by the D and D guys please give us a call as we too need the practice!!! Because if they do not get the practice they cannot validate as D&D. :(
One other small thing to remember is that having listened out you may well give a practice call but them be asked to leave it as D&D is busy. You didn't necessarily miss a genuine call because the Military Mayday calls are made on a different frequency.

[liam548]

I called for a training fix last week and although too low for a VHF fix D + D were able to fix my position within a few seconds using radar after I had set a specific squawk code.

[Lister Noble]

Liam,do you actually fly an aircraft?
;)

[DC10RealMan]

It might be an idea to call London/Scottish Information first and ask them to ask D and D if they can approve your "Practice Pan" call.
London Information have direct telephone lines to D and D and therefore if D and D are dealing with a real emergency on either UHF or VHF you will not be interupting their service to that aircraft.
It may also give them time to put down their cup of coffee and/or newspaper before you call!!

[fisbangwollop]

DC10........At Scottish Info I can see if D and D busy with a real incident as a red light appears above their entry door. at least a quick call to Scottish first would confirm if they are busy or not......that way the call will also be un announced to D and D and therefore better training for them to!! :cool::cool: