Airfield Blacklist?

[Flyingmac]

Been reading some poor accounts of some airfields. Maybe there's a case for a blacklist. A simple where and why? Blackpool has recently come in for some stick. Any more?

[mad_jock]

Norwich pain in the backside.

[worrab]

And how about a Whitelist. There must be more than a handful of airfields where you're guaranteed a great welcome and/or fabulous scenery etc etc

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

And how about a 'Private Flying' forum where everyone can post a thread about their favourite/least favourite airfield with their reasoning and there could be a bit of debate then it falls into mud-throwing where a moderator then steps in and throws the thread away, or a 'Airlines, Airports & Routes' forum where exists a good number of airfields including debate.... :ok:

[A and C]

I would put both the airfields quoted above on my blacklist, as for a white list both Biggin hill (overall value for money) and Troyes (quick customs clearance) spring instantly to mind.

[effortless]

and Troyes (quick customs clearance) spring instantly to mind.

And they help loading the champagne. :)

[mad_jock]

worrab pretty much every airfield I have visited in Scotland I would give the big thumbs up to.

Even the big ones although expensive always seem to have some sensible way to deal with GA.

[Kiltie]

Leicester. 1997. If that counts.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so here's my list of places I'd rather not go again..

Panshanger (what can I say that others haven't already?.....the sooner it's a housing estate the better)
Blackpool (Security nightmare)
Norwich (Security nightmare)
Compton Abbas (Great airfield, shame about the management)
Redhill ('ATC' think they are at Heathrow)

Most airfields in the UK I'd be happy to visit, but not those listed above...

[Captain Smithy]

Anywhere that insists on charging mandatory "handling" for visitors in SEP spamcans...

Looked into taking a PA-28 up to Aberdeen for an overnight to visit some friends etc., mandatory "handling" and other sundry charges totalled up to a somewhat amusing >£100. They must think us pilots are all radge. Well not me. Bugger that, will take the train or the car instead. Or take the -28 into Insch and meet someone there.

Smithy

[Cusco]

as for a white list both Biggin hill (overall value for money) and Troyes (quick customs clearance) spring instantly to mind.

Try getting to Troyes at lunchtime when you need fuel and there's a frontal system up your chuff on your way back to the UK.........

Cusco

[Capn Kangaroo]

Blacklists

. Elstree (EGTR) when Mick's on the radio
. Bembridge (EGHJ) ... for the "Jobs Worth" security guard

Otherwise both fantastic places to visit .. just shame about the individuals that tend to spoil things

. Blackpool (EGNH) for their inane and GA unfriendly security procedures coupled with exorbitant gas prices


Whitelist

Denham (EGLD) - great friendly welcome from the guys in the Pilot Centre
Full Sutton (EGNU) - really friendly people, and well cared for grass strip
Merignac (LFBD) - Bordeuax - really really friendly people, and great food/wine just round the corner
Ronaldsway (EGNS) - Manx Flyers, helpful and friendly .. just a shame about the £35+ handling/landing fees each time - especially when they're not even around to help push your plane back :)


just as a start .. many many more, but these are at the top of my list(s)

[DC10RealMan]

I recently joined the Shropshire Aero Club at Sleap, Shropshire after thirty years flying in the south east of England. It has been a revelation-friendly and helpful staff, no CAS, laid back, no security/spotter issues, sensible flying currency rules, value for money flying, no jobsworths, the list is endless!!!!

[Airbusboy]

Bourne, EGSN - Not very welcoming staff, and it felt like such a remote and dead airfield. (sorry, personal experience)

Why Norwich? I will be flying there next month.

[bingoboy]

Fields with an overly developed hi viz fetish.

Caernarvon seems to have fallen.

[bingoboy]

Someone put Oban on the other list. Based on experiences last summer I think perhaps it was misposted.

[Captain Smithy]

That was me. I went to Oban last month for a short visit and was very happy. Will be back again soon. Friendly folks and a very nice airfield. Scenery is marvellous too :ok:

Smithy

[Bigears]

I second Captain Smithys experience- at Oban yesterday and was pleasantly surprised after what I'd previously heard. :D

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Redhill ('ATC' think they are at Heathrow)>>

Bit of an insult to Heathrow methinks.....

[verticalhold]

Someone said Elstree. Mick's bite is far worse than his bark, Actually he's a great bloke and I won't have many words said against him! (known the daft b***er for years and he is a really good sort.)

I just don't uderstand how Elstree can justify their latest trick of a 100% levy for landing fees paid by credit card. I went the other day, landing fee £50 paid by Mastercard and got charged double for using plastic.

Its about time someone shot the senile old t*** who has the lease and did something about making Elstree more attractive to GA.
VH

[jxc]

I think the redhill ATC have watched PUSHING TIN a little to much :E

[JW411]

I have to say that the last time I visited Redhill (in a C206) my day job was flying DC-10s based in JFK.

From the politeness point of view, ATC at Redhill made their New York compatriots sound like boyscouts.

I have never been back (to Redhill, that is).

[DC10RealMan]

I had a similar experience at Redhill in a twin when I upset someone and they made me taxi the long way round the airfield to the parking stand at £250/hour (10 years ago) W*****S!!!
Never been back since.

[lupomen]

Handling on the South Side of the airport i.e. Manx Flyers is not now and has never been mandatory, you just need to make an arrangement to pay your landing fee with finance prior to departure.

[GK430]

PPR - Why oh Why?
Used to work at one of the U.K.'s larger airfields. You cannot turn traffic away unless you are slot restricted or put out a notam /AIC due to an event or similar.

What is getting into these people requiring this that and the next thing.
Fully appreciate the need to ensure we can be briefed over noise sensitive areas etc. and hazards, but so much already online if you do your homework.

It's getting daft - so much so, I went off over a CAS free area at Alt. and decided to land nowhere for an hour and a half and then go back to base - hassle free and fabulous:D

[niknak]

Airbusboy,

don't worry aout MadJock and A & C, they talk of a time (many years ago) when every visitor had to go through the terminal building, both have always had another agenda which they've never been able to publicly justify, I don't know why.
That doesn't happen anymore, just ensure that you are handled by Saxonair (0845 155 6222) and you get great service, a cheaper landing fee and free coffee, tea and sticky buns, with none of the nause of full security checks which are imposed upon the normal travelling public.

[easy307]

Lupoman,
So where do you ask to park at IoM if not handled by Manxflyers ?
It's tricky to get to the northside to pay the relevant person.

[gg190]

Handling on the South Side of the airport i.e. Manx Flyers is not now and has never been mandatory, you just need to make an arrangement to pay your landing fee with finance prior to departure.

This is true, handling is not required (unless using the main apron), however the airport website states the following:

"Outside of the RZ (main apron) there is no compulsory handing regime on the rest of the airfield, but an airfield tenant or club will have to accept the visitor."

So unless you know somebody who is an airfield tenant, you have to use Island Aviation or Manx Flyers. While it is possible to pay your landing fee directly to finance in the main terminal I am led to believe they only accept cheques or cash.

[mad_jock]

I don't have an agenda, just got royally shaft by those idiots in the terminal. As we discussed by PM.

Also as well the airspace grab is taking the piss. And the thousands of pounds spent on it would have been better spent on tarmac so your taxiways are in better condition than the access road to the local caravan park.

Any GA movements into to Norwich are self defeating to the GA cause as it only hinders the arguments for the refusal of the CAS.

3.2 Of the 537 responses from individuals or organisations not on the consultation
list, all except 3 objected to the proposal. It is unusual to receive such a large
number of responses from a particular sub-set of the aviation community which,
from the initial analysis appeared to be based on objections to common issues.
Indeed it appears that this might have been an orchestrated campaign against
the proposal (through corporate websites and other means) outside the accepted
process for consultation promulgated by the CAA. It should be noted that the
national representative organisations of all aviation interests are formal consultee
organisations by virtue of their membership of the CAA’s National Air Traffic
Management Advisory Committee (NATMAC). This apparent action outside the
recognised consultation process is the subject of further evaluation and
discussion with the CAA.

Is an exert from the consultation process. Obviously nobody at Norwich considered the fact that the reason why they only got 3 postive replys was because it was stupid idea in the first place.

And it should also be blacklisted because I believe its one of the few airfields which charges for emergency diversions. Although they proberly changed that when they went for CAS to try and show they are GA friendly

There are lots of GA fields in the Norwich area I am sure if you post which aircraft type your planning to arrive in, a local will tell you which one is most suitable. but you can't go wrong with Seething I reckon. Even if you need to get into town is cheaper getting a taxi than the landing and handling at Norwich.

[flybymike]

They are not all bad; they welcome arrivals by caravan airship...

[India Four Two]

I just don't uderstand how Elstree can justify their latest trick of a 100% levy for landing fees paid by credit card. LL,

I suggest you ask for a refund of the levy from your credit card company and tell them that this is Elstree's policy. Charging extra for using a card is not allowed under their agreement with Visa/Mastercard.

[lupomen]

You may park on the south side apron around the edges, a phone call to finance should enable you to pay landing/parking fees by post or they sometimes send security to do the necessary. It is not necessary with a little forward planning to pay a ridiculous amount of money for handling, a questionable service in relation to GA at the best of times !!

good flying.

[Oldpilot55]

I think Panshanger should be removed from the blacklist on the grounds that it has a really good cafe (based on all of one visit). The guy we thought was coming over to bollock us was merely interested in our plane. We did get a comment for not wearing hiviz but clearly they had seen us without.

[niknak]

Mad Jock

1. by all means object to the CAS proposal, but I don't think that that's what this post is all about, besides which it would appear that you have latched onto the LAA approach which led to many objections based upon supposition, not fact.

2. When I PM'd you I offered to assist with your percieved problem by asking you to forward facts, you turned me down flat which leads me to believe that it was just that - a perception.

3. Admittedly we did join the Strasser Scheme late, but equally we've never ever charged anyone for an emergency landing, prove me wrong.

It's unfortunate that you choose to base your opinions of one airport upon whatever may or may not have taken place, by all means spout forth but at least have give yourself some credibility by backing your statements up with facts.

[Capn Kangaroo]

Someone said Elstree. Mick's bite is far worse than his bark, Actually he's a great bloke and I won't have many words said against him! (known the daft b***er for years and he is a really good sort.)

Sadly I've been there when he's chewed out a newly qualified young lady pilot, (very very low hours) because she made a simple mistake on the radio ... he shouted at her so loudly that you could hear her welling up in the cockpit, all of this was inside 2 mile final

I think she handled the landing well, but it could have gone so badly wrong for her :(

I've also heard him on the radio shouting "EVERYONE SHUT UP" when trying to request radio silence to deal with what turned out to be a radio failure on an inbound aircraft ... now I don't think that's particularly standard phraseology

Personally, I've voted with my feet and gone to Denham where the RT is relaxed and friendly, oh and the circuits are considerably smaller .. I now even base my aircraft there. Its about 2 minutes further to drive, but tbh the service is 200% better so its definitely worth it!

I've seen several letters of complaint raised by tenants at the airfield over the years complaining about professionalism of radio / etc .. so far to date Mr Holder seems to not care (although I do appreciate finding anyone patient enough to sit on the radio at a "small" aerodrome has got to be difficult so they're probably going to find it hard to replace him if they tried) :(

[Capn Kangaroo]

It is not necessary with a little forward planning to pay a ridiculous amount of money for handling, a questionable service in relation to GA at the best of times !!


I confess I was under the impression handling was mandatory at EGNS ... and having just flown back from there today, having paid my £53 for an approach, parking - and "handling" (for them to fail to fax my GAR to all the right places) I'm somewhat peeved ..

Mind you if you fly there regularly enough I think you can pay £185/year (plus £185 joining fee) and they'll waive the handling charges ... joy!

Nice bunch of guys, just sodding expensive :(

[PENNINE BOY]

If you fly to Ronaldsway on a regular basis, phone the finance dept and buy a block of landings, you can then park on the south side and self handle :D

[ak7274]

niknak,
you state that the LAA has based it's objections on suppositions and not fact. I have looked back at the Norwich proposals and guess what?......the majority of that is supposition too.. not fact. We expect.... based upon........etc isn't fact. Sorry I was also angered by their accusation that my objection was part of a conspiracy and complained to the CAA about it. They weren't quoting facts then either.

[mad_jock]

This is a thread is about a Blacklist of airports which for what ever reason people think GA should avoid.

I suggest people avoid Norwich because I was an unsatisfied customer. You as an employee of the Airport and a none pilot come back and say ignore those pilots they don't know what they are talking about after never having been subjected yourself to the Norwich airport experence yourself. I will grant you that you will have been on flights but your a known face and have an airside pass. Then you imply that we (the pilots that say blacklist it) have a super secret agenda. Which when in reality we just think the place is poor value for money and a pain in the backside to operate into.

No where have we said ATC is a problem.

The CAS issue you obviously will have a different opinion on to the pilots cause you want it and the majority of pilots think its an airspace grab. Your hosting of a BBC film crew for the day to be honest will have cermented I think most pilots resolve on this matter. I haven't a clue what the LAA have published on the subject of CAS. I base my views on personal experence along with my nomination for black listing the airport.

[twelveoclockhigh]

Niknak

Well done to the airport for joining the strasser scheme but it is about diversions not emergency landings - and they have charged for diversions in the past.

[sammypilot]

Blackpool has had a bit of a panning here. However a few weeks back I had to divert there because Liverpool was fogged in good style. Under the Strasser scheme there was no charge for the landing and I paid £7.00 plus VAT for overnight parking. That is GA friendly wherever you go. The only downside was the next day, having driven a friend to Blackpool to collect the aircraft, I had to pay £4.00 to park in the car park for 35 minutes which sort of spoiled it a bit. Overall though 10 out of 10.

[A and C]

Just like Mad Jock I don't have any agenda when it comes to whatever airport you seem to be defending, how ever I object to paying good money for a service and then getting the run around by some brainless twats all in the name of so called "security".

If an airport has seen the light and found a way to let GA operate without the stupidity that we see at the major airports I welcome this, I was plesantly surprized at Plymouth a few weeks back, the Plymouth airport management are using a great deal of common sense when it comes to GA.

I get to see a lot of airport security across the world and the UK seems to have a disproportionately high number stupid, rude, obstructive, vindictive and power crazed security opperatives. It is simply not like that in the rest of the world and I don't see why we should put up with this treatment in the UK.

[Planemike]

Not too difficult to park "off airport" and take a short walk at Blackpool.........!!!

Planemike

[robin]

I was plesantly surprized at Plymouth a few weeks back, the Plymouth airport management are using a great deal of common sense when it comes to GA

... except when they close the cross-runway for a housing and industrial estate.

[Capn Kangaroo]

bit of a tangent here ... but I'm currently enjoying 2 weeks of flying in the US and doing some additional training.

Not the first time I've flown in the US, but the first time I've "really flown" in the US (if you know what I mean)

My God they're spoilt! ..... 5,200 airfields, no approach fees, no landing fees, some absolutely amazing cafe's, GPS / ILS / LOC / VOR ... shoot 10 approaches to 3 airfields all within 20 miles or so of each other and change your mind about the particular approach and/or missed segment randomly in between and they just deal with it, and with a smile (if you can smile over the radio!)

Not to mention weather briefings, slotting you in between a 737, Learjet and even an awacs on finals ... oh and really simplified IFR/VFR online flight planning and filing ... online charts for the whole of the US (both VFR and IFR) ... oh and fuel at $1.30 a litre (so about 80p!)

I honestly don't want to come home! :)

So basically add 5,000 or so airfields to the whitelist ... but sadly they all pretty much begin with a K :(

[AdamFrisch]

Yes, it's a tiring subject but there's no denying flying in the US is a dream compared to Europe in most ways. Just for the fun of it I counted to 493 airfields on the Los Angeles and San Francisco Sectional charts alone..

Hopefully we can continue fighting a fight to make it better, or if nothing else, stopping it from getting worse in Europe. Also, not all countries are as expensive and restrictive as the UK and others. Flying in Sweden for instance is pretty laid back (obviously because almost no one lives there) - few landing fees, very open airspace and good ATC.

[birrddog]

Yes, it's a tiring subject but there's no denying flying in the US is a dream compared to Europe in most ways. Just for the fun of it I counted to 493 airfields on the Los Angeles and San Francisco Sectional charts alone..
On the other hand, I find the UK far more helicopter friendly, despite Rule 5, than the US...

Far more heli friendly places to go/land and ironically less restrictions on private property. (just my experience)

[seymour beaver]

Interesting thread re Redhill, around a year ago i did a low go around with an instructor and atc promptly lectured the instructor over the radio on not doing a t and g cos the airfield was suffering from some waterlogging and t and g's were prohibited.I and the instructor knew the wheels had not touched the ground we even said it was a low go around but the atc controller was not having it, stating he saw the wheels touch the ground.This was not the only example of a them and us attitude by the atc.Hopefully the guy in question has now left.

[freon1978]

I suggest people avoid Norwich because I was an unsatisfied customer. You as an employee of the Airport and a none pilot come back and say ignore those pilots they don't know what they are talking about after never having been subjected yourself to the Norwich airport experence yourself. I will grant you that you will have been on flights but your a known face and have an airside pass. Then you imply that we (the pilots that say blacklist it) have a super secret agenda. Which when in reality we just think the place is poor value for money and a pain in the backside to operate into.


I'm not an employee but i am based at Norwich and would not agree with anything you said


The CAS issue you obviously will have a different opinion on to the pilots cause you want it and the majority of pilots think its an airspace grab. Your hosting of a BBC film crew for the day to be honest will have cermented I think most pilots resolve on this matter. I haven't a clue what the LAA have published on the subject of CAS. I base my views on personal experence along with my nomination for black listing the airport.



I'm not sure why you're so against the CAS, its a relatively small area and theres nothing that excludes you from flying through it. I've been up to the Radar room and seen them vectoring commercial traffic round some local traffic flying straight through the approach not talking to anyone, have even seen someone flying orbits on the approach! So i thoroughly support them in their application for Class D and look forward to seeing it.

[A and C]

Today I was told of a "happening" at Blackpool that simply I find incredable but if true shows an interesting attitude on the part of the management.

The person in question had some months before booked and paid for tickets for his wife & himself, when he checked in he was told that he would have to buy two tickets to get into the departure gate area ............. cost £10 each.

These tickets were to said fund futher airport development, He was not told about this charge when he booked the tickets and was told that he could not get on the flight without buying these airport development fund tickets.

Can this be true that once tickets have been paid for an airport can just think up another way to get money from you?

I would very much like to know if this story is true.

[west lakes]

Though this should be in the Airports Airlines etc thread
Blackpool have been charging this fee since late 2007/early 2008 to all passengers on scheduled flights (it does include free parking though).

[Cusco]

Someone said, relating to Blackpool:

The person in question had some months before booked and paid for tickets for his wife & himself, when he checked in he was told that he would have to buy two tickets to get into the departure gate area ............. cost £10 each.

And asked:

Can this be true that once tickets have been paid for an airport can just think up another way to get money from you?

Answer Yes:

Norwich charge a £5.00 Airport Development Fee per person: The ticket machine is just by the airside entrance.

No fee = No airside= no flight...............

And the parking's not free.............

Cusco

[flybymike]

Newquay likewise similarly charge.

It's the latest scam don't you know...:rolleyes:

[A and C]

This is a bit rich! you don't buy a train ticket and then have to pay to use the station platform.

[soay]

Ryanair pulled out of Blackpool when the development charge was introduced. I suspect that the airport were paying Ryanair to land there, and that was unsustainable. The £10 charge includes free parking, which means there's nowhere for us GA types to park during peak holiday periods. :*

[AndoniP]

although I do appreciate finding anyone patient enough to sit on the radio at a "small" aerodrome has got to be difficult so they're probably going to find it hard to replace him if they tried

at time's i've felt, "this miserable :mad: needs a good shoeing". he's taken a piece out of me too. i'm sure he'll become a lot more tolerable the longer i have lessons there.

the other bloke, the older boy, he's brilliant. just all round nice bloke and pretty jolly over the radio.

[Phil Space]

The sad sad truth is most of those in charge of airports such as Norwich or Blackpool have not got a clue about GA or customer relations. Norwich was a nice little place to fly to years ago for no other reason than a cup of coffee.
Now the place is a nightmare for non resident aircraft and it appears they don't want small aircraft landing on their little used runway. The airport development fee and third world expensive car park underline a mentality that suggests making things difficult for the user is the name of the game.(The bollards around the terminal entrance make the place look grim)

And it appears even at airports such as Swansea where they have no traffic
the make it difficult route is the future. There are a few glimmers of hope on the horizon such as the possible reopening of the White House on Cardiff southside.
But the days when I could park the aircraft outside the terminal at places such
Bristol and saunter in for a cup of tea are just memories on yellowing pages in one of my old log books. Happy days long gone.

[neilgeddes]

Newquay likewise similarly charge.

I don't want to put Newquay EGHQ on the list (yet) but I phoned up a few days ago to ask about flying in and overnight parking. They quoted approx. £112 for two PA28s to include landing, handling and one night's parking. Does anyone know whether handling is necessary there? We will need to upload Avgas fuel. Thanks for any info!

[sammypilot]

Can't speak about Newquay as I haven't been there but you might get a better view from Michael O'Leary. He pulled out of there. However you will do better, price wise, at Perranporth.

[neilgeddes]

Yes, flew into Perranporth in 2008. They couldn't have been more helpful. Thanks :)