buying 2 seater or 4 seater

[screetch]

hello everybody
i am just doing/ finishing off my ppl in booker and now i have to make a choice where to go in my flying life. do i rent a plane, buy a share or buy a plane for myself or buy a plane and sell shares of it. I have posted this in a nother forum but this one is a lot more visited. i also found a post about an instructor discussing which 2 or 4 seater to get for a school under
http://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/388117-best-2-seater-4-seater-training-aircraft-2.html however he looked at it from a economic comercial point of view.

I just want a way to fly/tour and make a cheap start. so buying a brand new 200k plane is def not the option at the moment.

I really fell in love with the sportcruiser. its nice, can have dynon glass cockpit, its all metal and seems very efficiant. However my gf dont like it only has 2 seats. So in case we will buy a plane etc having a 4 seater is better as you can take friends around and your kits. Otherwise we can only fly together when we can leave the kits at home. Since she mentioned this my dream of having a sportscruiser kinda fell in love.

i would like to hear your opinions on this:
- would you buy a plane and than own it for years and years? At least you know what happened to it and can be sure anything broken is cause by you rather than having to find it out that someone else in the group has caused damaged and forgot to mention it?
- would you buy a plane and sell shares to keep to costs lower?
- would you buy a used plane to start you off flying and dont costs too much or would you continue to rent planes from the school just to gain some more hours?
- 2 seater or 4 seater (that is the big question)
- if i need to get a used 4 seater i has to be all metal, I dont want any wooden beams etc needing replacing due to wear/ age. What are my choises here? Since I am new to aviation i really only know my Cessna 152 and 172 and the PA28. I have been reading the pilot mag for a year now, but there is no real article that answers my above questions.

if you could all just advise me on your opinion that would really help me.
thanks so much in advance
norman

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'd strongly recommend buying a share - it's the best way to learn about aeroplanes and ownership whilst around people who have already made most of the available mistakes and will help you not to repeat them. It'll also almost certainly be much cheaper in the medium and long run than either sole ownership or renting, and it's rarely a problem to take the aircraft away for a week or so in most syndicates - almost impossible renting in the UK. You can always make other choices in a few years when much more experienced, but in my opinion this is by far the best starting point.

If you're at Booker (certainly the nearest airfield to Chesham, unless you're eligible to join the RAF club at Halton), go and dig out the "for sale" folder in the BAFC clubhouse - there are always a few shares going at Booker, and I can't think of any bad syndicates there.

If you want to go touring, then I'd strongly recommend buying a share in a 4-seater. Why? - just work out the weight and balance on any 2-seater available to you with you, your significant other or best mate, full fuel, and light overnight bags.

All-alloy aeroplanes have much going for them, but are only really essential for storage outdoors. Wood and composites, or fabric covered aeroplanes are fine so long as they're mostly hangared, and alloy+synthetic fabric even is fine on a tie-down.

G

[robin]

- 2 seater or 4 seater (that is the big question)
- if i need to get a used 4 seater i has to be all metal, I dont want any wooden beams etc needing replacing due to wear/ age. What are my choises here? Since I am new to aviation i really only know my Cessna 152 and 172 and the PA28. I have been reading the pilot mag for a year now, but there is no real article that answers my above questions.


Given that a lot of spam-cans have corrosion issues or spar lives, don't turn your nose up at the wooden wonders. They'll be flying just as long or even longer than some AA5s, for example.

But initially I'd certainly advise you to find a good, well-run group while you learn more about aircraft. Pipers and Cessnas are good workhorses but lack sparkle.

What will be right for you will become clear later on with experience. Don't make expensive mistakes at your stage. Get to fly with other pilots in different aircraft (always paying your share, of course), then you'll see the pros and cons of each type and be better able to choose the one for you.

[OpenCirrus619]

What sort of flying do you intend?

If it's mostly just you, or you and one other, then go for a 2 seater every time. You can always rent a 4 seater when you need the extra seats.

In 500 hours probably less than 25 have been with more than 2 in the aircraft.

OC619

[Dave Clarke Fife]

hello everybody
i am just doing/ finishing off my ppl in booker and now i have to make a choice where to go in my flying life. do i rent a plane, buy a share or buy a plane for myself or buy a plane and sell shares of it.

If it flies, floats or fcuks...................rent it

[BackPacker]

When I finished my PPL I initially thought that I would start doing some serious touring too. After about four years, the number of significant cross countries is now solidly stuck at less than 10.

Reason - long distance touring is very costly, to a certain extent boring and you will quickly learn that all airfields are the same - it's just the quality of the restaurant that differs.

I'm glad I did not tie myself to a single plane, either through sole ownership or through a group share, but instead became a member of an active flying club with multiple types of planes. Through an 'unusual attitudes' training I came in contact with aerobatics and that's what I now do mostly. But I still take a "normal" plane out every now and then just to bimble about somewhere, or take friends up, or something like that.

So my advice would be to rent from clubs, groups or commercial outfits for a couple of years, see what type of flying you actually enjoy, how many people you typically take with you, and only then buy (a share in) a plane. And that plane should then match 90% or more of your flying habits. For the other 10%, keep renting.

[robin]

.....long distance touring is very costly, to a certain extent boring and you will quickly learn that all airfields are the same - it's just the quality of the restaurant that differs.

.. but then if you start getting involved in LAA-type flights (Royal Berks Strut is nearby), you'll see you don't need a large airfield at all. The trips can be as long as your bladder can hold out, but the airfields are a lot different and will improve your skills no end

[Genghis the Engineer]

.. but then if you start getting involved in LAA-type flights (Royal Berks Strut is nearby), you'll see you don't need a large airfield at all. The trips can be as long as your bladder can hold out, but the airfields are a lot different and will improve your skills no end

Indeed.

I enjoy touring - and to pick a few of my favourite spots: how about Glenforsa, Fishburn, Old Sarum, Cranfield and Popham as very different places with a lot more different than the restaurants.

G

[screetch]

@genghis: I am in booker so the next time i am over i will pop into the Airways Flying Club and ask around.
Do you think I could rent a plane privatly from someone without buying a share?

The only reason I brought up the 4 seater is, that you will be able to get your 1-2 kids along when you are flying and this will be more future proof than a 2 seater where you are only to fly alone or with my girlfriend in case we found somone to watch our kids for a day or the weekend.

I do appreate your point about trying different aircraft. I would not want to fly in too many different though like in a flying club as I am happy i starting to learn the in and outs of one and rather do this properly as just to have a few hours on 20 types. There are too many accident reports where someone crashed because he only had 2 hrs on this one type. That is reasonable is it not?

So nobody recommended buying a plane for sole ownership - not even a used one? I am I see lots of them advertised for 30000-50000. That should be do-able should it not?

so now to the share as the other option: it is still gonna cost me 6000-12000 and 100 per months plus 30-80 per hour flown. This surely gets very very expensive does it not?
However some groups only take pilots who can show lots of hours..not at 55-60 hrs and a fresh ppl I would need to gain hours, experience etc before I could joiin a group. Renting a plane to for another 40 hrs would certainly make me a poor man..

@backpacker: I am not sure what kind of flying I will be doing. However I want to do short trips down to coast on a weekend or maybe do a trip to cornwall over a weekend. Maybe even a holiday trip to the north or back to Germany. However i dont think I will be really a long tourer. Yes all airfields are somehow the same, but we can fly to an airfield that is close to a big city we could then do sightseeing :)

I kinda settled my mind on a LSA Sportscruiser as it is cheap to run and is packed with new technology like a glass cockpit etc. however due to kits maybe a 4 seater is better. I would be interessting to get running cots from you gets for flying 30 hrs a year plus insurance, maintenance for a standart 2 seater and a 4 seater.

[IO540]

If it flies, floats or fcuks...................rent it

Unfortunately any number of other people will be fcucking it too... :)

2-seaters seem to have one thing in common: very little luggage space. This may or may not be relevant.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Unfortunately any number of other people will be fcucking it too... :)

2-seaters seem to have one thing in common: very little luggage space. This may or may not be relevant.

I don't know, I think I could get most 2-seaters easily over MTOW by use of the available luggage space, although thankfully most will somehow still remain within CG limits.

G

[IO540]

I was thinking of going away on a holiday.

With my girlfriend, we have done a holiday with the TB20 every year; 1-2 weeks. Last year we went to Croatia, Turkey and Greece. This year will be Greece (the far end of Crete) again.

We travel pretty light compared to most people who lug massive suitcases (especially the women) but we still find the TB20 is full of stuff. One splits up the payload into

- things which stay in the plane for the whole trip and never come out (e.g. oxygen cylinders, raft, the emergency bag, a backup laptop, a set of spare KFC225 autopilot servos :), the toolbox, etc )

- things which stay in the plane but may get taken out (e.g. fresh clothing)

- things which get taken out ever time (clothes for that stay, money, laptop, enough stuff to plan the next flight, etc)

No way could we do it in a C152 for example. The stuff is not heavy (apart from the permanent residents like the raft and the toolbox, probably 40kg) but it is just too big.

In fact one could remove the back seats and save some considerable weight, but my GF sometimes likes to sit in the back on long flights; there is more room and one can prepare food etc.

A 4-seater is just more practical.

One pays a price for it but the price isn't really for the 2 extra seats; it is generally the extra cost of a different and more mission-capable plane altogether.

[Mark1234]

So nobody recommended buying a plane for sole ownership - not even a used one? I am I see lots of them advertised for 30000-50000. That should be do-able should it not?

so now to the share as the other option: it is still gonna cost me 6000-12000 and 100 per months plus 30-80 per hour flown. This surely gets very very expensive does it not?
However some groups only take pilots who can show lots of hours..not at 55-60 hrs and a fresh ppl I would need to gain hours, experience etc before I could joiin a group. Renting a plane to for another 40 hrs would certainly make me a poor man..

Screetch, I don't wish to be discouraging, but the thing you seem to be missing is operating costs! Generally syndicates are not run for profit (other than to maintain a contingency fund). That 100 per month, 30-80/hr is to cover a share of the operating costs. Now as I understand it a lot of the costs for operating an aircraft are fixed; Within reason, the more it flies, the more economical it is. That's why syndicates are formed - to make it more economical than sole ownership, not simply because people can't afford the capital investment.

If the hypothetical 100/month plus hourly rate is too much, then I doubt sole ownership is viable. You also consider the cost of putting things right, engine funds and such. I'm not sure where the crossover point comes, but I know you need to fly quite a few hours to make owning viable over hiring, expensive as it is to hire.

[Rod1]

Running cost of a C of A 4 seat is about;

Insurance £2000
Parking £2000
Maintenance £4500
Fuel (100h) £4500

Cost of a SC will be about

Insurance £1200
Parking £1000
Maintenance £300
Fuel (100h) £2000

You could buy the 2 seat, hire a 4 seat when required and still save money.

Rod1

PS I own an MCR01 Club which will cost the same as a SC to run but is composite.

[Genghis the Engineer]

@genghis: I am in booker so the next time i am over i will pop into the Airways Flying Club and ask around.
Do you think I could rent a plane privatly from someone without buying a share?

You can, technically - but in reality it's not all that sensible. Buy, buy a share, or rent from a club: those are the real options.


The only reason I brought up the 4 seater is, that you will be able to get your 1-2 kids along when you are flying and this will be more future proof than a 2 seater where you are only to fly alone or with my girlfriend in case we found somone to watch our kids for a day or the weekend.

However, your flying to date will have been mostly local 60-90 minute flights, without baggage. A C152 or one of the new LSAs will handle that well, or solo touring - but very few 2-seaters will handle 2 people and full fuel; even a 4-seater such as a Warrior will still only take 2 people + bags for a week + full fuel. Full fuel, two adults and two children should also be okay of-course.

Additionally, as IO540 said, these do tend to be more capable aircraft.

I do appreate your point about trying different aircraft. I would not want to fly in too many different though like in a flying club as I am happy i starting to learn the in and outs of one and rather do this properly as just to have a few hours on 20 types. There are too many accident reports where someone crashed because he only had 2 hrs on this one type. That is reasonable is it not?

Sort of - in my opinion, a relatively inexperienced pilot should spend time getting to know 1-2 aircraft types well. Later on, with (say) 300+ hours, jumping between types becomes more sensible. I don't think it's true to say that pilots had accidents because of few hours on type, they had accidents because they didn't take the time to know the aircraft well enough - which is not quite the same thing. There are people with 100+ hours on type who still haven't got that, or test pilots safely making their first flight on a type who have prepared for it for weeks or months.


So nobody recommended buying a plane for sole ownership - not even a used one? I am I see lots of them advertised for 30000-50000. That should be do-able should it not?

No, you'll spend far too much time trying to look after instead of fly it, and the fixed annual costs (maintenance, hangerage and insurance mostly) will be crippling - these are much better shared.


so now to the share as the other option: it is still gonna cost me 6000-12000 and 100 per months plus 30-80 per hour flown. This surely gets very very expensive does it not?

I'll admit at this point that I have a share in a 4-seater at Booker. Shares in our aircraft are selling for about £3-£4k, and I'm paying £95/month and £65/hr. I try to fly about 36 hours per year in it, which comes out at about £97/hr - a quick check says that's about 25% cheaper than renting a 4-seater at the same airfield. I can get my investment back if I sell, but the main benefits is in knowing that only 7 other people fly the aeroplane - all of whom I know, that I have come to know the aeroplane very well, and most of all that if I book the aeroplane for 3 days and only fly 2 hours in her - nobody minds.

However some groups only take pilots who can show lots of hours..not at 55-60 hrs and a fresh ppl I would need to gain hours, experience etc before I could joiin a group. Renting a plane to for another 40 hrs would certainly make me a poor man..

Some (including the group I'm in to be fair), but not all by any means. Most airfields have cheap shares in something like a C152 which might suit you for a while, just renting a 4-seater when required.

I kinda settled my mind on a LSA Sportscruiser as it is cheap to run and is packed with new technology like a glass cockpit etc. however due to kits maybe a 4 seater is better. I would be interessting to get running cots from you gets for flying 30 hrs a year plus insurance, maintenance for a standart 2 seater and a 4 seater.

Work out the hangerage, insurance at about 8% of hull value per year, then allow about 2-3 times the cost of fuel (to allow for maintenance as well) and you'll not be too far out.

I've nothing against the Sportcruiser, it comes from a good stable and seems to have reasonable performance - but again, I'd really, seriously, look at buying into a syndicate, not outright. Buying a light aeroplane outright, as a new pilot, isn't a good idea, for so many reasons.

G

[IO540]

Maintenance £4500
Maintenance £300

I take it not a lot of stuff needed fixing on the 2nd one ;) ;)

Otherwise, it is a somewhat disingenuous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disingenuous?jss=0) comparison :)

[Rod1]

This year my permit cost;

LAA fee £135
LAA membership Fee (compulsory) £69
Oil £18
Filter £8
Expenses for inspector £20
A small amount of various lubricants from stock.

Last year was similar but included a set of plugs at £30 ish for a set.

Corrective maintenance for the year was £30 (new tyre and tube).

Rod1

[screetch]

thanks for all the replies. I really enjoy the talk and value all of your opinions. I can only learn from your experience. However I am sure you all had something in mind once and everybody has a hard time convincing you to change your mind?

I do accept buying my own plane really is not the right way forward after the ppl. Maybe renting/ share etc is the best for now to keep costs under control and just fly and gain experience.

could you guys/ ladies (if any) let me know what aircraft you fly and where your based- just out of curiosity?

do you think doing a little conversion from the c152 I am using for my ppl to a C172 makes any sense? I am an instruction would probably spend another 3-5 hrs with me going through the differences etc. Or would you rather just recommend to spend the time flying?

what do you do when wanting to fly a more complex aircraft? do you get someone from your group or do you go back to a flying school (which I would probably do)

[IO540]

Corrective maintenance for the year was £30 (new tyre and tube).That's on the moped. How about the plane? No way a real plane, used to fly for real, is going to be kept hanging together on £30. My Toyota cost me £300 the other day for a water pump.

I do accept buying my own plane really is not the right way forward after the ppl.

I would not say it is as clear cut.

The problem with ownership, particularly when compared to pure rental, is that you have a big learning curve to climb on crap like airfield politics, hangarage politics, maintenance politics (and learning who isn't incompetent or a crook, which takes a good while).

IF you are willing to take this on (and I have to say reading your post I think you probably aren't sufficiently determined and pig-headed) then the rewards of ownership are huge. You get total access, maintenance to your standards, ability to take it away on holidays, knowledge nobody else has been f***g with it, and 50 other things.

I bought a TB20 (a fairly sophisticated, even today, IFR tourer) a year and 50hrs after my PPL, and I never regretted it for a moment. But I am determined and pig-headed, and able and willing to micro-manage the whole thing.

What you need is some peer support on this. You won't get it from your school/club because they want to a) flog you more bits of paper and b) flog you more self fly hire.

Buying a plane and flying it is the easy part :) Especially if you buy a new one.

[AdamFrisch]

It also greatly depends on what you want to do with the aircraft. If you want to do the kind of touring IO540 does - long international flights that take him away from home for at least a week - then owning is pretty much the only way you can do that.

I wanted to take my local flying clubs 12.000hr steam gauge 152 to Sweden this summer, but that's simply not possible in a club environment that does flight training on them. It would be cheaper for me to buy a 152, do the trip and then sell it when I get back.

In a shared aircraft, that's probably, maybe doable. But you'd be pushing it going for 2 weeks in the height of summer. There'll be grumblings from the other owners, for sure.

[IO540]

I don't do that much touring. I do a fair # of 1- to 3-day getaways and 1 or 2 longer holidays, each year.

But if I was in a sizeable syndicate, I would not be able to do any of the longer stuff, and that would really remove the attraction of flying because I would be consigned to the local-bimble scene.

The best way to reduce costs is to set up a small syndicate - 2 or 3 people. Then you can do a 2 week holiday.

The other thing is aircraft equipment. Well equipped planes more or less require a small syndicate (or outright ownership) because you aren't otherwise going to find enough people who are interested in IFR, or even a high level of working equipment.

[Mark1234]

That's on the moped. How about the plane? No way a real plane, used to fly for real, is going to be kept hanging together on £30. My Toyota cost me £300 the other day for a water pump.

That's where you're going wrong :E Pretty sure the toyota isn't on a CofA, so you can buy the exact same waterpump for about 50 quid from a third party supplier, spend a couple of hours bashing your knuckles/swearing, and save 250quid. Simples :ok:

do you think doing a little conversion from the c152 I am using for my ppl to a C172 makes any sense? I am an instruction would probably spend another 3-5 hrs with me going through the differences etc. Or would you rather just recommend to spend the time flying?
Ye gods! If you're post PPL, I'd expect 1, possibly 2hrs for the 'conversion', if you've not got it yet, just do some of your training in the 172. And yes, I think it does make sense..

[englishal]

A typical simple SEP aeroplane will have fixed costs of around....

£1400 insurance
£3000 pa hangarage (Rod, the SportCruiser will cost the same too)
£2000 pa Annual (consumables and labour)
£500 pa parts, consumables, pipes, noses etc....

The only saving AFAIC see that a permit type will have is if you do the maintenance yourself, but the aeroplane will need the same 40hrs or so maintenance. If your time is valuable, or you can't trust yourself to do it properly the only savings you will make would be on CAA fees etc...But if you can do the maintenance properly yourself, then a permit aeroplane may save you £1500-£2000 pa....in otherwords 28% cheaper to keep.

Fuel will be cheaper but then again there are downsides too...for example the 100HP rotax engines are...only 100HP. Less load can be carried due to the laws of physics.

So swings and roundabouts really. We share ours 6 ways and the £70 p/h + £100 pm covers the fixed costs, maintenace etc....

[IO540]

When speaking of maintenance, one needs to compare like with like.

If someone doesn't want to spend time hunting down parts and skin their knuckles installing them (like me with the Toyota water pump) and instead choose to get a repair shop to do it (which is what 99.9% of people do these days, including myself despite having a brilliant workshop with a precision turret mill and a precision lathe) then one cannot say their car costs more to run than some 1970 MGB GT whose owner does spend his time crawling underneath it.

One can do owner maintenance on a certified plane; both G-reg and N-reg. The 50hr check is £12 on the oil filter, £70 on the oil (that's not cheap oil BTW) and about 4hrs labour. I can do it myself, so long as I find a 2nd person to help me with the lower cowling which is a 2-man job. But most choose to go to a company which charges them a standard fixed rate of £500+VAT, plus the £70+£12 consumables... For anybody who flies a lot, doing 50hr checks yourself saves a great deal of money. Actually I do mine with an A&P/IA and that enables me to run a progressive maintenance regime whereby the rest of the plane gradually gets looked at, ontrol linkages dismantled cleaned and packed with grease, etc. But if the firm doing the Annual did their job properly this would not be necessary. The other benefit of owner maintenance is that you get to know your plane...

Moving onto the Annual... again there are disingenuous comparisons going on. The £20 inspector fee mentioned by Rod1 obviously doesn't cover the inspector's expenses. The man is doing Rod1 a personal favour. So, let's transplant that scenario to a CofA plane, shall we? If I had a hangar in which owner maintenance is allowed (which itself is a huge huge problem and nothing to do with CofA/LAA type differences) then I would put my plane in there for a week, during which a mate of mine would do the Annual. I would help him out; we would probably do it in a few days. On a new/newish plane, nothing remedial needs doing so it is mostly a long list of inspections... It would cost me my time, a few hundred quid to the man, and because he is a mate of mine and an IA he can check the ADs and sign off the Annual. A few hundred quid plus a pile of my time, versus doing what 99% of CofA owners do and taking the plane to a "company" which charges £2500+VAT as a baseline.

One can play this different ways, and an owner with the right contacts (ownership is all about building a network of trusted capable contacts) can save big bundles. And he will have a smoother longer lasting and safer plane on which everything works, nothing works loose, bits don't freeze up at high altitude, and there are no "suprises" on the wear front.

The main difference between an LAA type and a similar airframe on a CofA is that on the latter you need to have a mate who signs off your work. These "mates" are evidently much more common on the LAA scene but that is irrelevant to the comparison.

Those who - perhaps perfectly reasonably - choose to be ignorant of the engineering and choose to not get their hands greasy will pay through the nose, whether it is a Toyota or a CofA plane...

[englishal]

If I had a hangar in which owner maintenance is allowed
You can always stick it in ours and do it there :ok: We could do two at once, and reduce costs further.....

[Rod1]

IO, when it comes to operating an LAA aircraft you do not even know sufficient to be dangerous. One of the big savings on an LAA machine is you do not need to use certified parts. Your inspector needs to be happy to sign it off, and often you are using the same bits that came with the approved kit, but no form 1. You can accuse me of lying if you want but the numbers I gave are correct.

Hanger charges;

The airfialds around me that I know about charge based on weight band, size, or number of seats. In all of the above the SC will be cheaper, but the numbers are obviously dependent on area. Up in the midlands I have my own personal hanger for £1000 a year.

The LAA is an organisation of enthusiasts. My inspector is a retired aircraft engineer who looks after a number of aircraft. He charges for his fuel and is typical of the way the LAA is set up.

Rod1

[screetch]

ok lets not concentrate on hangarage too much but i get the point those massive fixed costs are better shared out and the money rather spend on flying itself. however would it not be nice to have your own little plane - like you have your own car?

[Genghis the Engineer]

ok lets not concentrate on hangarage too much but i get the point those massive fixed costs are better shared out and the money rather spend on flying itself. however would it not be nice to have your own little plane - like you have your own car?

It can be - but an expensive luxury whereas in reality most syndicates consist in large part of people who rarely seem to fly the aeroplane, leaving most of the hours to be flown by 2-4 people, happily subsidised by everybody else.

I do maintain a personal aeroplane as well, but it's very small and cheap - anything large or expensive I rent or share. (And to be honest, that personal aeroplane is getting syndicated shortly). It is also de-riggable and trailerable, which is great for taking on holiday - but I don't know of any 4-seater you could do that with!

G

[screetch]

ghengis did you get my last pm? i think i will have to look for a share or maybe i can get an hour package rather than a share of someone.

i am not sure that a share wont bind you too much. What if i had to move.. i guess it not that easy to resell your share that quickly...

i will give a 172 at booker a try and but makes sense only to rent a 4 seater when you do need it, as most of the time you really dont.

[Rod1]

screetch

The buy your own decision is really yours and yours alone. A SC will cost you 50 - 60k, you can check the local parking /hanger costs for your area and the hire costs of a 4 seater. If you estimate your hours you can estimate fuel costs etc (18.5lph of Mogas for the SC). You then have to decide what to do. Are there any suitable group owned aircraft in your area? Do you want to form a group round a SC? Have you joined the LAA? Have you joined your local LAA strut (this could be a big help to you).

Rod1

[Justiciar]

This question gets asked so many times and there is no wrong or right answer to it. Every person is different and making decisions on aircraft ownership is no different from making decisions on anything else you may want to spend your money on. Whether you buy outright, join a group or rent depends entirely on the depth of your pocket, what type of flying you want to do and how often. The relative economics between group and say hire depends on what you can find available at what price. When I compared group ownership of a PA 28 180 over the cost of renting a similar aircraft the break even point was about 30 hours a year. With hire, if you can find a decent aircraft, you walk away after your flight and leave someone else to worry about maintenance. Hire also has the advantage that you can get to fly a number of differnt types without committing capital. And yes, it can be difficult to sell a share as the market is small (more so in the present climate).

If you want to kudos of owning, or want to be able to have the aircraft of your choice there when you want it then buy. But, be very certain you know what exactly you want. I have known several people who went into a group believing they were going to fly 50+ hours a year touring and in fact manage barely 10 hours of local flying. When I did a calculation of hourly cost of a group owned PA 28 140 I was in for many years the average hourly rate over five years was £129 all in. This did not make the group particularly a good financial investment. The low hourly rate proved to be illusory and taking into account the hassle factors, of which in that group there were many, it may not have been much better that hiring. But then again, having the aircraft there probably encouraged more people to fly more and there is a psychological factor at work if you persuade yourself that hour's flying is only costing £75 (or what ever the figure is).

At the lower (Permit) end of the market, group ownership can be very much cheaper. You are looking at something like a Jodel, Aronca or older permit Cub. When I was in Lister's group I think the hourly rate was £33. You will never hire anything at anywhere near that price commercially and the capital outlay for a share in something of that vintage is likely to be £3k or less, so there is not too much committment financially. You will be expected to muck in a bit helping out, but that will teach you a lot about aspects of aviation which you didn't learn when you did your PPL.

[screetch]

good reply..i in fact did some calculation now. Lets say i finish my ppl and have the licence in my hand by june. that would leave me another 6 months to fly this year, apart from the awefull weather in the uk :)

a cheap share will cost me £3000 plus lets say £120 a month and maybe 70£ per hour with fuel. In 6 months I could maybe do 15 hrs max. THis would costs me around £4700.

If i hire from my local school (taking into consideration it is a worn down plane) i would pay also for 15 hrs for a 152 approx £2000 and for a 172 £2300.

THis is still way cheaper than having a share. does anybody know the costs of the airways flying club in booker?

besides this, what aircraft do you guys fly and why? or what would you buy next?

[stickandrudderman]

Since you're in Chesham, you've got White Waltham, Elstree and Denham at your disposal and you can rent a huge variety of aircraft from those three combined.
I suggest you try as many different types as possible: taildragger, modern TAA (TAA at Denham), and aerobatic at WW (Pitts etc).
Give yourself time to bask in the post PPL euphoria and learn as much as possible about which particular kind of flying is going to keep you interested for years to come and try to fly with as many different pilots as you can. Check all the local clubs for fly-outs and try to involve yourself with those. The more pilots you get to know the more you'll learn.
Only then can you make an informed decision about whether you really want to buy an aeroplane.
Enjoy!:ok:

[Rod1]

“what aircraft do you guys fly and why? or what would you buy next?”

I fly an MCR01 Club;

G-KARK (http://www.laaeastmidlands.org/GKARK.html)

She is my ninth aircraft (4 C of A / 5 Permit) over 20 years (I had two at once for some time). My plan is to keep her for another six years and then look at my options. I am paying about £4k a year to fly 100h in my own aircraft based 13 miles from my home. She is fun to fly and will tour Europe two up at speed.

Rod1

[Justiciar]

Rod1 is lucky enough to be able to fly a considerable number of hours per year, so with him ownership is likely to be the cheapest option.

I don't have time to fly anything like that amount due to job, lifestyle and the fact that my airfield is 45 minutes away (when I owned a Pioneer 300 it was 50+ minutes in each direction so managed about 25 a year).

In the seven years I have been flying I have flown PA 28 140 and 161, Piper Super Cub, L4 Cub, Chipmunk (current mount), C172, Beagle Pup, Pioneer 300, Tiger Moth and Christen Eagle.

The Chipmunk is great for a summer's evening flying for an hour or so, capable of basic aerobatics and will land in < 350 meters if you know what you are doing! It is £100 per hour but then membership of the group is only £250 per year with no capital payment. If I want anything bigger I have a friend who will sometimes hire me his PA28 or there are several larger aircraft around and about, though to be honest I rarely need anything bigger.

This is a formula that works for me.

If you are near White Waltham it might be worth looking up the Jodel D9 group which operates from there. They had a share going a while ago for about £1,000 and the cost was minimal. They are light single seat tail draggers so they are not really for the new pilot; you need some tailwheel time under your belt but in the long term it would give you really cheap flying. If I lived down that way I would be in! I looked generally at single seat a few months ago and they are a cheap option. Assuming you go for something like a D9, Taylor Mono or Turbulent, they will cost you £6k to £8k. I was quoted £350 insurance for the year on a Taylor and they will fit into a hanger in places no other aircraft will get into and they burn around 10 litres per hour. The downside on many of them (they are all individually built) is that weight and balance can be a real issue, especially if you tend towards the chunky (as I do), though I don't think the D9 has such of an issue with this. Hatzflyer can tell you more as he has (or had) a D9.

[pulse1]

apart from the awefull weather in the uk


For a low time PPL the weather is likely to have a significant effect on the outcome of the decision to rent, share or choose a 2 or 4 seater.

Renting usually needs to be planned(booked) well ahead. If you want to fly with more than one passenger this also usually requires planning ahead when you have little idea what the weather is going to be like. In my experience, about 50% of trips planned more than 3 days ahead get cancelled or downgraded into a local bimble because of weather. Some flights get delayed because of weather and, if you only have the aircraft booked for a couple of hours, your planned visit to another field for the £100 burger turns into a local bimble again.

Although the same applies to group ownership, the booking is likely to be much more flexible and adaptable to weather on the day. Certainly it is much easier to book the aircraft for the whole day so that a short delay while the morning mist clears does not ruin the whole day. You are also much more likely to be able to grab the unexpected weather window if the aeroplane is not already booked.

In my experience, having rented and shared ownership, it is these frustrations with weather which can eventually mean that you fly less and less and rarely with more than one passenger.

It took me a long time to get into a group(5 members) which started with a PA28. Because we rarely flew with more than one passenger, we have since changed to a 2 seat LAA machine with costs very similar to those given by Rod1, for me about £68/hour. Since being in a group my annual flying hours and enthusiasm have trebled. I wish I had done it years ago.

[AdamFrisch]

I rent from my local flying club for shorter south east/west tours, mainly 172's and 152's. I've flown PA28's, a Lancer, a TwinStar, couple of TB10's but tend to come back to high wings. I'm gearing up for ownership this year, hopefully (if my finances come together) as it's getting prohibitively expensive to rent and inconvenient.

I've always wanted a Lake Buccaneer or a Cessna 337 Skymaster. The Lake because it can get to anywhere and is such a nice (but slow) allrounder. Skymasters because they're the ultimate rugged twin that can get into any airfield, fly long distances fast and still not bite you with their inline thrust.

Skymasters are at an all time low at the moment, so that's very tempting. They are more expensive to run than a single, for sure, but I have a pretty good grasp of how much they'll be during a year from other Skymaster owners, and it's survivable. At least as long as you keep it on N-reg.

Lakes keep their value more and bargains are harder to find.

We'll see. I'll probably get unemployed, lose my house (can't lose any more hair) and end up flying 1hr every third year with my luck.:}

[screetch]

i have just checked white walton (kinda far), Denham, elstree and also halton. Generally everybody wants you to become a member, mostly for a year.
@stickandrudderman: how do you go about this then? Adding up all the memberships at 2-3 airfields would easily pay for 5 hrs rental time alone?

Lots of people have suggested to fly different airplanes and with different pilots. How do i do this? this sounds like stupid question, but i cant just turn up asking who wants to fly with me or " Would you mind if i fly in your aircraft for an hour?"

I did consider doing my ppl at Elstree however I think they only had a C150 fro flight training. I think it was Firecrest Aviation. Again just Cessnas.

Shame i did not try to go to Halton. I guess they are really hard to join. But they would be perfect and are so much closer. However when raining season starts again it hard to fly from there as they only have grass runways which get soaked. at Booker you can always go on the hard runway.
I will give them a call and see if i can rent from them, however it is mainly intented for service personell. I will keep you posted.

For Denham you need to have checkride with an instructor before you can rent a plane. Whilst generally this is fine i kinda worried the more airfields you rent from you will just be doing checkrides and paying for this rather than actually flying. At Denham particulary you need to fly every 4 weeks otherwise you need to fly yet again with an instructor. This feels like beeing in school again and not like someone you already has his ppl in his hand , does it not? A 152 is £110 and a 172 £130 plus membership fee plus the cots of checkrides, which is not cheaper than at Booker

I generally like to fly different aircraft just to feel how they handle and figure out pros/cons etc. But on the rental places i have looked i mainly saw cessnas. I didnt see the TAA at Denham anywhere yet..

[funfly]

It's lovely to be a sole owner of your own aircraft (as I was) but it is very nice to have someone else to share; experience/cost/niggles/questions/performance/company etc. and if I did it again I would certainly share with at least one other person - I found it a lonely life doing everything myself.

[stickandrudderman]

I didnt see the TAA at Denham anywhere yet

Home | general (http://www.taauk.net/)

You don't always have to take out a full years membership at these places...

[Piper.Classique]

For Denham you need to have checkride with an instructor before you can rent a plane
I think you will find that is the same everywhere. However, if what you want is to see if you like the aircraft, you can do that on a dual flight, can't you? Usually you can do that on a day membership, and get a feel for the club at the same time. As for flying private aircraft, it is quite acceptable to ask. Make it clear that you will pay your share of the flight, and a lot of people will be happy to take you. Many will take you for nothing if you show a genuine interest, but don't always expect to get any handling time.
I would suggest a group first if you don't want to rent, sole ownership is a big jump just after your PPL. You can always sell a share if it is in a good syndicate, and a pleasant aircraft to fly, once you decide (if you decide) to buy your own aircraft.

[smarthawke]

sreetch

Do visit Airways Flying Club (http://www.airwaysflyingclub.co.uk/) and see what they have to offer and the prices.

For example there is a G600 glass cockpit PA28-236 Dakota which is a true 4 seater with bags and loads of fuel with a 135kt IAS cruise as well as PA28 Warriors.

Also, there's a Chipmunk if you do fancy a bit of tail-dragging.

PM sent....

PS And then in a couple of months there'll be a shiny new TECNAM P2006T twin to play with...!!