UK to France/abroad, VFR - any need to talk to London Info?

[IO540]

Obviously, operationally, there isn't. In Class G you can fly non-radio and anyway I would argue there is no point in talking to anybody enroute unless they can offer a radar service.

But is there some subtle legal reason for doing so?

A simple case is Lydd - Le Touquet. It would be daft to dial up London Info for the 10 mile bit of water in the middle that one isn't talking to Lydd or LTQ. Yet this is still taught in the PPL. I've never done it myself....

What about coming back? Especially if returning to a strip. Does London Info perform some subtle function regarding identifying the inbound for the benefit of whoever is keeping tabs on incoming flights?

There has to be "something" in this, otherwise one could just fly into the UK from anywhere and nobody would care, which is obviously not what is supposed to happen :)

[dublinpilot]

Isn't there a requirement to make a position report when crossing the international FIR?

Personally I certianly would talk to London Info for 10 miles in the middle, if I couldn't get a radar service from anyone else. The last thing I would want to happen would be for the engine to quite over the sea, when not in radio contact with anyone ;)

[dublinpilot]

Found it.

AIP page ENR 1-1-3-7
Paragraph 7.4

Low Level Cross-Channel Operations - UK/France (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/enr/EG_ENR_1_1_en.pdf)
7.4 Position reports are required when crossing the coast outbound, inbound and when crossing the FIR Boundary.

So if nobody want else wants to talk to you, then London Info seem to be your only option.

[Rod1]

In the example given Lydd would be quite happy to listen to your position report. I avoid London info if at all possible.

Rod1

[dublinpilot]

Yes, of course the would.

But IO540 said
It would be daft to dial up London Info for the 10 mile bit of water in the middle that one isn't talking to Lydd or LTQ
If he isn't talking to either, then he must make his position report to someone. (Though I have wondered how non radio aircraft comply with this!)

[DC10RealMan]

I am very familar with London Information and their setup and speak to them regularly but particularly when crossing remote regions or sea. If the engine/engines were to fail then on calling "Mayday" they have instant access to D and D, coastguard and emergency services, all the neighbouring ATC centres and airfields, other aircraft in the vicinity, and an extraordinary amount of information including instant access to METARs for most of the airfields in Europe that may be useful/important/life saving in that dire situation and finally they are on duty 24 hours a day and 365 days a year unlike Lydd or Le Touquet

[IO540]

That's not the question I asked though.

I was asking if there is some subtle reason why the contact is necessary, otherwise some kind of investigative/intercept action will take place.

[BackPacker]

FWIW Dutch Mil Info (the guys and gals who offer a FIS over about 3/4rd of the Netherlands) did a presentation about some imminent changes two weeks ago at our club, and during the general Q&A session the same question popped up, this time in regards to crossing the Dutch/German FIR boundary.

That gentlemen unequivocally stated that no contact was needed with either Dutch Mil Info or with Langen Info when crossing the border. They could see us on their Mode-S radar, could correlate that with our flightplan and that meant that the legal side was taken care of.

Obviously if we needed information from them we could always talk to them. But the implicit message was clear: "Don't talk to us unless you specifically need us. We're not interested in your life story, routing, aircraft type, POB, ETA and so forth, and while you are telling us that and while we are writing this down, somebody else might need something from us which we cannot attend to."

One of the imminent changes they talked about is that there's going to be an ATIS-like frequency that's going to apply to the Dutch FIR, offering the QNH and some other pertinent information H24.

[hatzflyer]

Last time I tried to talk to London info I couldn't get a word in edgways which is not unusual on a sunny weekend.The thing is I would normally have spoken to Lyd.London info told me to stand by 3 times whilst they spoke to traffic that was miles behind me in Kent.
It was obvious they were overworked but they still kept talking to others miles away and asking for repeats etc.
On the forth time I called them they finally asked me to pass my message, which was" G-xxxx first call was north of the blackwater, now on finals Calais,out.":ugh:

[IO540]

I'd say that a Dutch/German border doesn't exist, however, in any real sense.

The UK border most definitely does exist though :) Even taking things simplistically, the UK is outside Schengen.

My guess would be that for a radar-identified flight, nobody cares if you call anybody up. But a flight from a strip probably isn't going to be radar identified unless you call somebody up - even if you filed a flight plan.

[DC10RealMan]

The military will phone the London FIS to corrolate an unknown radar track against any traffic/information that the FIS has and presumably from that information they can positively indentify the unknown flight.

[aluminium persuader]

Have to say, I'd work a radar unit any day. Wattisham (if open), Southend or Manston depending on the route. Even if you're not under a radar service, at a decent level you'll be in radar cover for much (if not all) of the time. Just in case!

Of course, if you're flying something where the RHS can say "number three engine's failed" to which you respond "which side?", it's less of a concern!

[IO540]

The military will phone the London FIS to corrolate an unknown radar track against any traffic/information that the FIS has and presumably from that information they can positively indentify the unknown flight.

That is what I was looking for, and IMHO it makes sense.

So what happens if somebody is flying LTQ - Lydd and does a direct frequency transfer? Presumably it all happens so quickly that the aircraft lands before the military get around to wondering what it was?

I do know London FIS have access to all UK flight plans, but thought it takes some time to dig them out, and is done in case of missing aircraft etc.

[DC10RealMan]

IO540

I cannot answer that question as I do not know. I do know that visits are arranged for pilots to the ATC facility where you can ask the questions face to face and you will be made very welcome.

[Fuji Abound]

IO540

I could answer your question but if I did I would have to shoot you and then myself. National security dont you know.

:)

[IO540]

No they will just loosen the fuel injection distributor pipes ;)

But hang on... you rent don't you. You can speak freely on here :ok: It's me who has to watch out (http://www.quotes.ubr.com/quotes-alphabetical/p-quotes/paranoid-quotes.aspx).

[RTN11]

Why not get your local club to try and arrange a trip to swanwick, and ask the London Info guys yourself.

I went on a trip there a few weeks ago, and found it very informative and it answered all the questions I had about how London Info and D&D operate.

[bangoman]

Going Lydd - Le Touquet, Lydd App usually "suggest" next frequency as Le Touquet Tower 118.45. And LFAT tower are more than happy to oblige and have never complained that I should have gone to Lille App on 120.275.

Coming back, Le Touquet Tower have always said something along the lines of "you are leaving my zone squawk 7000 and change to enroute frequency" to which I normally reply that I am changing to Lydd App.

Is this in keeping with the enroute position report required in the UK AIP?

The Lydd AIP entry says that Lydd App 120.70 DOC 25nm/10,000ft.

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGMD/EG_AD_2_EGMD_en.pdf

I measure the FIR boundary to be 26nm from Lydd Airport, maybe 25nm if you bend the map a bit. So it seems one can't technically change direct to Lydd Approach?