Advice Pls: Syndicate Woes

[XX621]

Hi all,


The group I am a member has an issue or two, and I'm curious to hear how others would regard the issues and perhaps can offer suggestions on how to improve the situation.

In brief the issues are:

The treasurer has become for sometime now unresponsive to any form of contact from members of the group. Most emails to him are ignored. No one knows where they are in terms of their financial relationship with the group. Emails form other members offering to do the financial admin go ignored. Flying bills are not being sent out to members (for months now).

Only 1, possibly 2, members of 6 are actually flying the aircraft (other than myself)...not a problem in itself, but does indicate the lack of engagement in general. No trip sharing takes place.

I am considering suspending my monthly payments until I know what's happening wrt finances (especially as I have learnt others in the group have) but don't want to compound the problem.

Suggestions to arrange a meeting are agreed with, but nothing ever actually happens. At least 1/3 of the group are not likely to attend based on the very few previous meetings.

Is this a common scenario across PPL syndicates? I find it hard to understand this "passive" (at best) approach to owning and operating an expensive bit of kit.

Thoughts?

[jxc]

I think i would go round his/her house and ask the questions are you sure the insurance and maintenance are up to date ?

[robin]

Not an unknown situation in a syndicate, unfortunately.

2 thoughts

From what you say it looks like your income is not healthy and neither does the group sound fully engaged.

Secondly, I'd question whether or not the Treasurer is not feeling some serious pressure and can't handle it. Been there and got the tee-shirt....

If members have stopped paying, all that will do is put even more pressure on the Treasurer.

Assuming that he is not a crook, and there are some about, it sounds like he needs some help and not criticism. Don't use email - phone him or go round and see him.

Groups are voluntary entities and not companies. The work involved in acting as Treasurer is normally unpaid and, frankly, is a thankless task.

You need to act in your own best interest but get the information first before deciding your way forward.

When I was the treasurer I found it impossible to handle getting money out of reluctant members. It almost gave me a nervous breakdown.

[IO540]

ISTM that the majority of syndicates are organisationally disfunctional.

They seem to be eager to take in new members (presumably, to replace disgruntled former ones) and the worms come out as soon as the newcomer starts to fly.

Unless the plane is something exceptional, I would start looking at Plan B (whatever that might be).

[XX621]

Interesting.
As yet, all legal and regulatory requirements are being met. It's literally the lack of engagement, communication, and general interest being shown by members of the group which I struggle to understand.

Someone I met once told me of the "Dinner Party" syndicate syndrome. It describes syndicates PPLs who just like saying they are a pilot, and own an aeroplane, at dinner parties, but don't bother or aren't willing to use it.

Beginning to wonder if that explains it....

[ChrisVJ]

One of the most difficult things to do is set up 'friendly' syndicates in a really business like manner. One of the things that hit us hard when we came to Canada was the savage way facilities were withdrawn or charges added if accounts were not settled promptly, especially with stratas etc, ( a sort of legal co-op for property.) Over the years it seems to have softened up considerably but there are still bills that we have to be very careful to pay on time.

If the syndicate does not make a big deal about collecting the very first time a member is late then the whole thing will 'go to pot' in short order. The problem is the 'voluntary' treasurer is hardly going to go round 'collecting' or issuing proceedings and if they do you are going to have problems getting members.

Maybe it is time for some creative thinking.

Many years ago one of my kids went to a private school where they badly needed to add a new wing. Income was excellent but local banks were not willing to offer credit on a school as if anything went wrong there were unlikely to be other organisations willing to take on a large property with very restricted zoning in a residential area.

Cue a couple of creative governors. They asked each parent to stand surety for $2,000. The bank was willing to offer each parent a $2,000 loan unsecured in the event to school failed but in the meantime loaned the school half the needed on the security of the property and the other half on the parents promise. The school paid off the loan early and within four years was expanding again.

How about:

Each participant borrows a year's fixed payments from their bank and puts it in a personal account from which only the (automatic) payments can be made. The bank then collects monthly from the owner's personal account (the day after salary day, of course. Banks always collect more ruthlessly than voluntary treasurers and it removes that anxiety completely.)

You set up a collection account that can accept payment on line. Flying payments must be made electronically within three days or they collect BIG interest. No flying until the previous payment is made (Very swinging penalty if not.) That way you can never be more than one flight behind.

Maybe creative ideas for administering a syndicate might make a very good thread in itself.

[Dan Winterland]

"Groups are voluntary entities and not companies."

Questions about running syndicates crop up regularly and my advice from having been in a couple is set them up as a limited company. Each syndicate member has a share in the company rather than a share in the aircraft. This gives you more protection and has certain obligations to the directors.

One day, one of our sydicate members went bankrupt and the baliffs turned up at the airfield to impound 'his' aircraft. As he only owned one share with a nominal value of one pound, the baliffs realsied it wasn't worth their while to do so. And the company articles stated that any share owner had to have a current PPL with 100hrs P1, so their option of making any money from it was minimal.

It's worth considering in any re-organisation of your syndicate. And I suggest this is overdue!

[BackPacker]

Flying payments must be made electronically within three days or they collect BIG interest. No flying until the previous payment is made (Very swinging penalty if not.) That way you can never be more than one flight behind.

I was thinking along the same lines. But this doesn't really help if you have "non-flying" members who are behind their monthly dues. How do you solve that? No bragging rights at dinner parties until you've paid?:=

[IO540]

The thing is that no matter how you organise it legally, if the members couldn't care less then it isn't going to work.

Someone I met once told me of the "Dinner Party" syndicate syndrome. It describes syndicates PPLs who just like saying they are a pilot, and own an aeroplane, at dinner parties, but don't bother or aren't willing to use it.

But surely they are paying £XX/month? Seems a waste of money.

The bottom line is: is the plane any good; if so, fly it and enjoy the others' lack of interest, in the form of increased access to you. You have found the perfect syndicate :)

[robin]

We looked at setting the group up as a company, but the work involved was considered not worth the effort.

Our group have a number of members and some are definitely of the 'dinner party' type. They fly rarely, most pay up on time and some even turn up for work parties.

Others seem to treat the group aircraft as a flying club machine. Rarely help out, leave the aircraft unfuelled and cause most of the problems.

The reason that some don't fly is difficult to judge. Certainly the current environment means we're all flying less. One of our group walked away at the last annual as he wasn't able to pay his contribution to the group's bill.

That was particularly upsetting as he'd had a year's flying, adding to the need for maintenance, but then when the bills came in, ratted on the rest of us.

He's now looking around for another (this time, non-equity) group to join.
In my view the real issue is the number of parasites in groups. You really need to interview new members and get advice from others to see if there is a reason why they should ought not to be allowed to join.

Similarly, as a potential new member you need to get a feel for how the group is run.

We all go into groups rather like we approach a new girlfriend - you don't go looking for flaws. You need to be a little more circumspect and cautious.

Finally, you also need to look at the group's arrangements for getting out and for resolving disputes.

Once you have them inside, they can break a good group quite quickly. So

[XX621]

This is good. Thanks all.

Problem with any idea, is that you need consensus to implement it - which in itself requires involvement. Catch-22!

IO540: You are correct, it is the perfect syndicate in terms of aircraft availability - but if the bills can't be met due to lack of treasure the aircraft will be available for looking at only! Which I suspect is on the horizon, as it is emerging that not all monthlies are being paid.

Maybe my expectations are too high. Maybe with the better weather everyone will come out of hibernation. Maybe, maybe...

[BackPacker]

In the ultimate case you could start legal action against the treasurer to release his documentation to the rest of the group. Then either clean up the mess yourself, or hire someone to do it.

If I were in a group like this, where I'd have a capital interest in the plane directly, rather than through a company, I would insist the treasurer puts copies of his administration online somehow. At least the financial sheets. That way you can react quickly if the treasurer is somehow falling behind.

The treasurer has become for sometime now unresponsive to any form of contact from members of the group. Most emails to him are ignored. No one knows where they are in terms of their financial relationship with the group. Emails form other members offering to do the financial admin go ignored. Flying bills are not being sent out to members (for months now).

I don't know how this works in the UK, but in the Netherlands there are some specific steps you need to go through in a club-type environment (which a group really is) to get the treasurer to release his documents and/or resign from the position.

First, unless you're in the board yourself, you don't have the right to call an all-hands meeting yourself. You have to have a certain % or number of signatures on a petition to ask the board to call an all-hands meeting. If the board then doesn't call the meeting within a certain timeframe, you can officially call the meeting yourself. In the invite you should mention clearly what the agenda is, and any motions you'd like to discuss.

The meeting itself then needs to have a % of the members present for certain types of votes to be legal - such as forcing a board member to resign. If that % is not present, a second meeting should be called. In that second meeting, there is no minimum presence required. The votes of the members that are present are enough, even if you're alone.

With the transcript of this meeting and all the communication leading up to this you can go through the legal system to get the treasurers documents, if necessary by court order. If the treasurer then still withholds or destroys the documents, he can even go to jail over that.

But, yes, this is a rather involved sequence of events which may easily take six weeks or so in total. It's probably easier to go round his house and have a cup of coffee to discuss things.

The other thing you'd might like to know is that even if you set up a limited-liability group or company, individual board members can still be held responsible (and thus sued for their estate, if necessary) in case of gross negligence. So if the treasurer on the one hand has become totally unresponsive but on the other hand is also not cooperating with the transfer of his duties to somebody else, and the treasurer "forgets" to pay the insurance and somebody prangs the aircraft, the treasurer is in deep water on his own.

Again, not a situation you'd really want to be in, but it might be useful in your discussion with the treasurer.

Maybe my expectations are too high. Maybe with the better weather everyone will come out of hibernation. Maybe, maybe...

One word of warning. I've seen similar situations at other clubs, where relatively poor people are treasurer of a group (sports clubs in my case) which is relatively rich. It is too tempting to borrow money from the group for some personal expenses, and then later pay it back - usually nobody will notice. Until the payback can't be done in time, at which point in time the treasurer panics, starts plugging one hole with another, and becomes generally unresponsive to even the most direct forms of contact. If you let a situation like this develop, it'll go from bad to worse and the group as a whole might be tens of thousands of pounds poorer, with no ability to get that money back. So do NOT wait until everybody but your treasurer comes out of hibernation, because that's just going to make it worse.

[IO540]

I think syndicates work OK at two levels:

1) a very small one comprising of a few good friends

2) a very big one comprising of say 30 very low budget pilots and this type of syndicate will have somebody running it and looking after everything

In between the two, with say 8 members, it seems to be persistently difficult.

The big ones have plenty of money and if somebody trashes the plane, they just get another one.

[Dan Winterland]

In the UK, twenty is the maximum allowed. In my experience, four is good. Six - the maximum. Any more than that, things get complex. And when taking on new members, you have to chose them vey carefully.


You can set up a company in a couple of hours for about three hundred quid. There are organisations which will do all the paperwork and register them with Companies House.

[Lister Noble]

We've got 14 equal shareholders in our group,probably two or three includung me fly regularly,two or three not much and several rarely and some never.
We don't have a monthly charge,just an all in flying hour charge and an annual meeting where we agree an annual sub,usually in the low hundreds.
I have recently taken over as Trustee/treasurer and we have an "engineering member" who looks after getting neccessary work done by qualified engineers.
The previous trustee/treasurer ran the group for 10 years without any probs,and I hope to do the same.
We run the web based e-allocator booking/message service.
We make big decisions by consensus,small every day decisions me and the engineer chap,but always let everyone know what we are doing.#
We just don't have any problems,some are high hours pilots,some ex commercial others like me quite low,160ish.
We all rub along together,and do have a couple of lawyers in the group if we ever need legal advice,but as far as I know this has never been needed in anger.
Lister:)

[whiterock]

What you describe is not unusual but I see some opportunities for you. I was a founder of a group some years ago and because of my enthusiasm I was left to "run" the group, despite encouraging others to get involved. This I was happy to do and enjoyed over a decade of group flying. I formed a limited company, similar to a former group I had known, which gave all concerned reassurance that proper accounts were being carried out. There is little additional work over that of a "loose" syndicate of individuals but you will have to have an annual audit carried out. No bad thing IMHO. And the aeroplane is owned by the company, which has shareholders (pilots).

Incentives were involved that gave discounts to members who paid "up front" for their flying. Members could pay for their expected annual flying hours in twelve monthly payments together with their monthly subscription. This helped me as treasurer greatly with having money in the bank for the needs of the group/aircraft. Any credit at the end of the year could be carried over or reimbursed.

If your group is in the doldrums you may be able to pay off those who would readily leave, maybe with the help of like minded members. Also the members who are no longer "current" may well be happy to be bought out. In effect, you should endeavour to acquire the aeroplane at a favourable price. Then you can build the group you would prefer. Go and visit the treasurer and have a (hopefully) friendly chat before deciding on your next move. Good Luck :ok:

WR

[englishal]

What is your relationship with the treasurer? How many are in the group? Why not just phone him, perhaps he has been told he has cancer or something which I guess would take priority over the group. Someone needs to talk to him because for all you know the aeroplane may not be airworthy.

We have a group of 6, but 4 rarely fly because most of us have other aeroplanes too. This is fantastic for the two of us that do fly as we have our own aeroplane subsidised by the others. However the others take an active part in the group and if we need something, everyone helps out. Two are incredibly competent engineers who have built their own aeroplanes, so something mechanical breaks, they fix it (under supervision of a licensed engineer of course ;) ). The other is a dentist and can do really intricate repairs to stuff like plastic, and makes the plane look nice, one does the books, and I do the electronic stuff like take care of the GPS updates....and I also wash and clean :) The two of us that fly regularly nearly always fly together, and have some interesting adventures. None of us knew each other before we joined the group but are now friends and can easily share a beer or two....(or maybe 8!).....so groups can work...

[Rod1]

I suspect if you ring him or go and see him in person, and do not go at him in an aggressive way you will sort this out quite easily. I have extensive experience of being in groups and forming groups and there are a few things, which can make it life hassle.

All monthly charges are paid by DD.

The monthly charge includes 15 hours flying time (over the year)

All share sales go through the group account with outstanding amounts taken out of the share value by the treasurer

Any significant defaulters have their share sold and the outstanding amount taken out of the lump sum.

I have been in groups ranging from 12 people to two and all but one ran very well with limited problems. A big group will generate big maintenance bills, but spilt over more people. A small group with careful owners can operate with very low maintenance bills. An LAA machine shared between 4 or 5 people can be very cost effective with costs as low as £40 a month and £35 per hour for a £3k investment and very low financial risk.

Rod1

[IO540]

In the UK, twenty is the maximum allowed

No, you can have any number but is above 20 the plane needs to be maintained to Transport standard.

Also if there is "zero equity" involved then the plane needs to be maintained to Transport standard.

[mur007]

And when taking on new members, you have to chose them vey carefully
Speaking as someone who is thinking about trying to join a group in the next twelve months or so, what sort of things are you looking for in new members?

[XX621]

This is really good stuff, thanks all. I am going to give the above points some serious thought, and some very useful points there. The comments will certainly be influencing my actions, so many thanks for taking the time to input so far !

It is clear that there needs to be some big changes very soon. The lack of financial admin is just not on when you're dealing with significant amounts of other people's hard earned cash. Moving to a group account which is not a personal account of one member will be a good start.

The minimums are in place (insurance, maintenance etc). I've checked.

I look forward to reading more posts - this is really helpful.

[XX621]

Speaking as someone who is thinking about trying to join a group in the next twelve months or so, what sort of things are you looking for in new members?

Speaking from my experience:

1. On meeting the potential new member, it's the good old gut instinct first and foremost. Do you feel comfortable letting that person fly YOUR aeroplane? Could you envisage sharing a cramped cockpit with them for a couple of hours?
2. How experienced are they? Is the experience relevant? Do they seem willing to undergo trips with an instructor if the group feel they would require it? (in our group insufficient attention has been given to this aspect IMHO).
3. What is their general attitude/approach to flying? What is their attitude to risk?
4. What kind of flying do they intend to use the aeroplane for? Long, frequent trips away may be a problem.
5. Finally, and this should come out when you put them on the insurance (unless they lie), have they had a prang? If so you need to hear the story..

Hope that helps.

[mur007]

Thanks xx621; I'm near the end of my PPL training and obviously my experience (or lack of it) may well be an issue.

[IO540]

The people are what really matters. No amount of contracts can get around that.

The members need to be compatible in

- mission profile (if a group is some-VFR and some-IFR, it will fall apart when some avionics packs up and the VFR ones don't want to pay for fixing it)

- funding (a stingy member will not want to pay his share)

- flying frequency (there is no way to structure the /month and /flying-hour figures so there is never a cross-subsidy from frequent flyers to infrequent flyers, or vice versa, so if there is a big disparity in patterns, resentment will result)

One also needs clear rules on things like duty drawback, otherwise you will get 1 or 2 members always flying over to LTQ and pocketing the drawback. The drawbacks should go back to the group fund, but that is not perfect accounting either...

[XX621]

Thanks xx621; I'm near the end of my PPL training and obviously my experience (or lack of it) may well be an issue.

Not necessarily. I can't speak for other groups, but our group has two low hour PPLs. Hours aren't everything. I would rather a sensible low hour pilot than a gung-ho Captain Flasheart anyday.

(and to quote from that very special episode...)

"Captain Blackadder: Unfortunately most of the infantry think you're a prat. Ask them who they'd rather meet, Squadron Commander Flasheart or the man who cleans out the public toilets in Aberdeen, and they'd go for Wee Jock Poo-Pong McPlop every time. "

:E

As long as you are checked out thoroughly by an instructor known to the group, and perhaps fly with a group member familiar with the specific aeroplane, I don't see a major issue.

[Rod1]

It is well worth finding out about their previous flying and then checking up, quietly and informally that it all stacks up and that they have not been banned by ½ the airfields in the area. More than once I have found out things which I did not like…

Rod1

[BackPacker]

One also needs clear rules on things like duty drawback, otherwise you will get 1 or 2 members always flying over to LTQ and pocketing the drawback. The drawbacks should go back to the group fund, but that is not perfect accounting either...

Why?

If the hourly rate is a "wet" rate and you acquire fuel elsewhere, the group should deduct the cost of that fuel from your bill. And I think the deduction should be based on the fuel cost at the home base, not on the actual purchase price and/or whether or not a duty drawback can be done.

That way you reward individual members if they shop around for fuel (they pocket the difference themselves, after all), but at the same time you're keeping the work for the treasurer easy - all s/he needs to know is the amount of fuel somebody uplifted.

[Justiciar]

IO is right and it is people who matter. I have been a treasurer and a secretary in two different groups. In the first, being treasurer was hell as one person in particular would not pay and the group for some reason would not agree DDs or payments in advance. You need a few active people to take on the principal roles: usually as a minimum a good treasurer and someone who can liaise as required on technical issues. I was a member of Lister's group for a while and two such people (and others) made quite a large group run very well. Generally though small is probably better.

You have to make your own judgment. Ask questions, meet as many of the group as possible and don't let heart rule your head because you like the aircraft.

As to the present problem, face to face talking to the treasurer is the way forward. He certainly should not be using his own account for the group's finances. Beyond that, it is difficult to make any constructive comment, not knowing the individuals concerned. Trying to get a few newer, fresher faces in will help, even if that means expanding the group.

[IO540]

BP... I used to rent out my TB20 and got these various issues.

I used to rent out DRY and (not sure if you know how the UK duty drawback works) it was manifestly unfair to other flyers when one flyer (renter) pocketed the drawback following a 30min flight to LTQ. The drawback paid for his whole trip, but of course that was subsidised by all those flying before him, on any part of the 86USG tank capacity.

The scheme, before I changed it ;) , created an incentive for somebody to come along once a month and do a very short flight abroad, which cost them approx nothing. (Curiously it was 2 instructors who used to do this irritatingly in-your-face stunt :) ).

One alternative is for (this not really applicable to pure rental) the drawback to go into group funds. The particular flyers won't be so happy because they pay the same wet rate as the others (most groups have a WET hourly rate, partly due to lack of fuel flow instrumentation and partly because the members don't fully trust each other to not fiddle it) so ideally they need to be offered a slight discount on that. But that discount is applicable only if the drawback is untainted by previous (and too-recent) foreign flights, otherwise it gets complicated to work out. But if you don't offer any discount on the foreign wet rate, the foreign flyers are subsidising those who don't fly abroad, and since they will generally be the bigger spenders within the group.... you get my drift, nothing is perfect.

[Dan Winterland]

WRTo new members (from my expereince).

Set a minimum experience level. We had 100hrs P1 minimum in one group - but I think this gave us a discount on insurance. But we were operating from an unlicenced aerodrome with no supervision - so this was relevant.

You have to meet them, get to know them, get aviation related references, and get someone to fly with them. In one of my groups, I was the only professional pilot so I got to fly with prospective members. Not a guarenteed net, but it at least gives you an idea. Once I said I didn't want to take on a new member because of what I saw in the air. I was over-ruled by the group chairman as the new member was a friend of his. The new member subsequently proved me correct by crashing the aircraft!

Watch out for people who keep changing clubs or groups. there's usually a reason for this!

Look at their logbooks and licences carefully. I saw someone's logbook who had a whole batch of hours logged in an aircraft which I knew to be grounded at that time!

Avoid young people with new PPLs - they may be hours building. Not necessarily a bad thing as they are keen, but they will hog the aircraft (unless you have rules preventing this), tend to leave it in a poor state and leave as soon as they get the hours they need.

[robin]

I think syndicates work OK at two levels:

1) a very small one comprising of a few good friends

That is definitely the best way, although each member has a larger share of a bill than would be the case in a big group, so they need to be solvent and able to put their hands in their pockets.

However, you'd be amazed at the way good friends can fall out over little matters. The best group of all is a group of one.

I've come round to the view that, if you are in a group, it should be run on company lines with a strong contractual obligation on members, rather than relying on goodwill.

When I acted as group treasurer I found the pressure from members intolerable. They wanted the aircraft properly maintained and in a good state of repair, but I had to chase them constantly for money.

As this was an unpaid, but ultimately, thankless role, I felt badly-used by the other members and eventually gave it up and left the group with a lot of bad feeling.

I hope the XX621's group can get itself back on track, but I sense that it may have got to a point when it should start divorce proceedings.

[whiterock]

.........it should be run on company lines with a strong contractual obligation on members, rather than relying on goodwill.

Could not agree more and it does work. Have a good agreed set of rules and get everyone to sign them. A loose framework of "friends" is OK while they are friends but it does not take much for things to break down.

A group of up to six can make flying a four-seat tourer quite reasonable, cost wise. In fact, the annual cost of a 1/6th share will probably be less than an annual membership at a golf club :eek:

Never understood the restriction imposed by some for a 100-hour P1 minimum. Being a good judge of character is more important IMO. A recently qualified pilot should not have any "bad habits" and be keen to learn and be accepted within the group. A few years ago it was a 60-hour member who brought our aeroplane back to the airfield after the engine threw a valve just outside the circuit. :D

Beware of those who want to have everything in flying on the cheap. They are often those that turn up in a new expensive car, and/or are airline pilots!! := In my experience, a lot of group members do not fly more than 20 hours a year despite what they might say when joining.

The best group of all is a group of one. I agree but not necessarily practical.

WR

[kui2324]

Never understood the restriction imposed by some for a 100-hour P1 minimum.

Likely to be the difference in insurance costs!

[BackPacker]

Likely to be the difference in insurance costs!

Probably. However, I would consider it normal if a less-than-100-hour pilot would join, that he/she would pay the premium excess (if any) him/herself.

So I would not rule out low-time pilots on those grounds per se.

Obviously if it's a rather complex type you're going to want a little more experience (in general and on type) than for your average spamcan.

[Lister Noble]

I was below 100 hrs when I joined our group,the excess if I had an accident would have been £750 instead of the normal £500 and I would have paid that myself.

Lister

[Maoraigh1]

Of our Jodel 1050 group of 6, 4 have been in it for over 12 years. I fly over half the annual hours. (96 in 2009). I joined in January1990, and am not the longest lasting member. We've got one new member who is just completing his NPPL. then he'll do his tailwheel convertion. He's had a few passenger flights in the Jodel. He knows he will have to do/pay whatever the insurance co. demand to fly as P i/c. Usually they require some number of hours to be accompanied by another group member. We've never had a very low hours member before.

[Rod1]

I got a share in a Pup 150 just after passing my PPL. The insurance co wanted me to do a conversion with an instructor and then fly 10 hours with an experienced PPL in the RHS. Having said that I would not let a low hour pilot into a group I was in.

Rod1

[Lister Noble]

That seems a very selfish attitude.
The new PPL is considered safe to fly,will have done a tailwheel conversion if required ,and been checked out by a member of the group.
When I joined our group I had well below 100 hrs,once I reached 100 the excess insurance loading for me was scrapped.
Lister

[robin]

We set a 100hrs limit on our tailwheel aircraft as it kept the insurance down.

In many ways, I'd quite like a low-hours pilot to join us as we could then get a new member without too many ingrained bad habits.

It is normal for the new member to have to pay any necessary loading on the premium, but that is a matter for the group and can be waived. In any event that would reduce once the 100hrs was reached

[englishal]

We had two low houred pilots join our group a couple of years ago, and have had no issues to date. However we were very selective about them and they flew with the "chief" pilot of the group several times for assessment. As it was they are both good pilots, I often fly with them. There was an insurance stipulation of 10 hrs dual with a group member or FI, and for one of them who was just post PPL with about 50 hrs TT an insurance loading of about £400 which he had to pay. The second year, due to his involvment in the group and the amount he contributed, we covered the excess as a group as he is an asset to the group.

But saying that I had the misfortune to see an aeroplane lose it's nosewheel a couple of weeks ago. The chap came it too high and then dropped like a stone onto the runway. The nosewheel came flying off and the prop struck. Could happen to anyone I suppose but chatting to the engineers who are carrying out the repair (in excess of £20,000 so far), the engine has done just 30 hrs since the same pilot did the same thing.....I guess their aeroplane will be out of service for another 3+ months.

[whiterock]

I am aware we are getting off the original topic but I think it is relevant for us all to be aware of the real state of affairs.

I was looking at the February bulletins on the AAIB web site recently and of the 30 or so accidents to light aircraft, 75% were commanded by OVER 100-hour pilots. Many were over 1000-hour pilots. The remaining 25% were all in training.

So lets get it out of our mind that the "new" pilot must be the only focus of attention when assessing who to let into our groups. They deserve every encouragement. A belief that at 100 hours TT a pilot is more acceptable because the insurance says so is a mistake IMO.

WR

[katana 1]

In the same situation I would sell it. :{

[oscarisapc]

I have been in several syndicates over the past twenty years and have been fortunate in that they all worked well. However what characterises them were certain features they all had in common.
1. the aeroplane belonged to the group not to individuals so that for example, a member couldn't leave before an annual is due without the costs of that being taken from his share.
2. we met regularly and notes of the meeting were taken - this seems onerous but can be reduced to a bare minimum. The note only need to show that a majority of members agreed on a particular course of action. At the moment I belong to a small group which has illness in family members so formal evening meetings which used to be accompanied by a meal no longer happen, but we still meet up in the club.
3. fixed costs (including an allowance for forseeable bills based on time such as the annual inspection) are budgetted and paid monthly by standing order.
4. Billing for flying is done monthly - a chore for the treasurer but not so difficult now he emails out a spreadsheet and we pay electronically
5.There is a "Partnership Agreement" which you draw up before any trouble happens detailing what happens in the case of forseeable issues such as non payment of bills, disagreements and voting rights, booking procedures, new members, selling shares, etc. Hopefully this will never be needed but knowing it is there and that someone has thought about these things in an impartial way beforehand can save a lot of hassle. Once disputes become personal - they get a lot more difficult to resolve without egos getting bruised. Don't start me on the subject of pilot's egos.

As for the problems that have been described in this thread, I have a lot of sympathy for those caught in the cross fire. I also think the unfortunate treasurer in the original post probably needs support not criticism. However, I do know of some groups that don't go well - and being in a group where you don't trust the other members can be a really bad experience.

And on the subject of groups, I am relocating, so if anyone knows of a nice syndicate near Bristol that has a vacancy for a new member, please PM me!

[whiterock]

I guess if you want to you will but I never mentioned statistics, I stated facts. The AAIB has a web site and you can check for yourself. Those "in training" are stated as such on the site.

See what you make of January's accident reports to GA aircraft (not microlights). Every GA-fixed wing accident that month involved a 100-hour plus pilot.

In the meantime I shall continue to applaud those "new pilots" who join our ranks and resist the notion that they are by definition a risk, without considering other factors. My point is, I would not turn away a new pilot who wanted to join my group who had less than 100-hours on that basis alone. FACT. :D

WR