Calling Soaring Pilots: Input needed

[MIT-ICAT]

In light of recent mid-air collisions involving gliders, MIT in collaboration with the FAA and the MITRE Corporation has started a project evaluating how ADS-B could be of benefit to the Soaring Community. The survey can be found here:

http://agena.mit.edu/ADSBsurvey (http://agena.mit.edu/ADS-Bsurvey)

The soaring community is of special interest. Since they are non-electric aircraft (i.e. most of them do not have an electrical system), they are exempt from the FAA's transponder rule. As a result, they cannot be detected by ATC's secondary radar system (SSR).
The project mentioned above focuses on creating a low-cost, battery operated ADS-B system that could be installed in gliders; this would result in greatly increased situation awareness on the pilots as well as the Air Traffic Controllers part.
Preliminary flight tests are planned for this summer (2010). The survey was created to ensure that these flight tests actually evaluate issues of interest to the soaring community.

[Tankengine]

FLARM:ok: ............................................................ ...........................

[MIT-ICAT]

ADS-B is not FLARM. FLARM is a technology that is widely used to increased situational awareness and conflict detection in the European soaring community. It operates using a low-power radio (in the public spectrum) and conflict detection algorithms with traffic alerting to users about other FLARM equipped aircraft.
Though FLARM algorithms may potentially utilize ADS-B messages, the two radio systems and their messages are not interoperable. ADS-B is a surveillance technology designed to support a broad range of aviation applications to improve aircraft safety, aviation system efficiency and capacity. Additionally, ADS-B is a world-wide adopted standard for the next generation surveillance.

[sjeh]

I think the address should be

ADS-B Benefits to the Soaring Community Survey (http://agena.mit.edu/ADSBsurvey)

instead (the one posted gives error 404)

[hatzflyer]

Is all this sort of thing really about safety or is it about profits?
In the old days when videos came out we had the betamax v VHS ( or whatever). they were both touted as being the best.
Eventually betamax went to the wall leaving loads of people with useless kit that they had to bin. ( OK so eventually most went to cd's anyway, but at least its still relatively easy to play a video if you want to.)

Same thing happened a few years previously with in -car entertainment and tape players.

Now its one thing not being able to listen to your super8 tape or watch an old vid but it is a bit more important when the object is to miss an oncoming plane. Surely it would be better if one system was agreed and all the manufacturers concentrated on gaining their part of the market by good value reliable products.

With a new system coming out almost weekly ,it's natural for people to wait to see what comes out next week and that means no one is using the kit whilst waiting, so not much increase in safety there then, the manufacturers are not making the money to stay solvent, no good to them, and those that have taken the plunge and bought kit find it of little use 'cause they're the only ones flying in their neck of the woods with it and its not compatible with anything else and is about as much use as a three week old sarnie.:(

[robin]

Additionally, ADS-B is a world-wide adopted standard for the next generation surveillance.

Have you told the UK Civil Aviation Authority about this? They are pushing Mode S as the future.........:hmm:

When I last spoke to them about ADS-B vs Mode S, they made it clear that ADS-B would only work with a fully certified (and expensive) GPS and we wouldn't get much change out of £7k.

As they can't get Mode S sold to low-end users at £1.5k, especially glider pilots, they'll have a job getting us to pay for this. It's why FLARM is working well in the UK and, for some time, will become the de facto standard.

[MIT-ICAT]

I think the address should be

ADS-B Benefits to the Soaring Community Survey (http://agena.mit.edu/ADSBsurvey)

instead (the one posted gives error 404)

You are absolutely right; I fixed the link. Thanks.

[BackPacker]

You might want to write to a few gliding clubs in the Netherlands directly to solicit their input. In the Netherlands, mode-S is now mandatory for all powered flying above 1200 feet, and the lower limit for unpowered flying has been steadily pushed down.

As a result, a significant percentage of the fleet now has now had both FLARM and mode-S for about a year. That's some considerable user experience which you might not want to ignore.

You can probably get a full list of glider clubs through the KNVvL.

Edited: I realised that you might not speak Dutch. I navigated the site and here's where you can find a full list of all gliding clubs and their websites.

Zweefportaal - Weblinks: Zweefvliegclubs in Nederland (http://www.zweefportaal.nl/main/weblinks.php?cat_id=18)

[tinpilot]

Flarm is OK but it is proprietary technology & only works at very short range; 3-5km max doesn't leave a lot of time to react if you're travelling at up to 250 knots in Class G. Also, I can't imagine Qantas, BA or any other airline taking delivery of a brand new A380 and then getting out the sticky back velcro to mount a Flarm unit on the dash, so Flarm is hardly likely to be a universal solution.

The CAA pushed Mode S as the first step on the road to an ADS-B future. The idea was Mode S for everyone first, then Mode S with extended squitter which, if not exactly the same thing, is at least compatible with ADS-B. The CAA's objection to ADS-B derives partly due from their well known antipathy to GPS and also because some of the people running the Mode S consultation had backgrounds as radar controllers and they were not about to endorse a solution which bypasses radar.

AIUI the point of the trials is to show that a low cost (less than $200 component cost?) simple ADS-B can be used as a 'sense and avoid' system to back up see and avoid. If a cheap system such as the Mitre unit can be shown to work, it is much more likely to be adopted by glider pilots (outside Holland) than transponders, and would supersede Flarm.

I do like the idea of being able to configure my GPS moving map to show any traffic passing within, say, 300' vertically and 1 mile horizontally. A traffic service without having to speak to an overworked radar controller.

[robin]

Tinpilot

Remember we are still waiting for the infamous sub-£500 Mode S the size of a mobile phone and with long-lasting batteries.

If you think we'll get a $200 ADS-B, you'll be waiting a long time. The CAA with its noted antipathy to GPS won't allow a Garmin 196 or SkymapIII to be the driving GPS either.

It will be a high-end certified model - and energy-hungry- so we'll be even less likely to have one in microlights or gliders

[Urs]

To make matters more complicated:
The US plans to adapt UAT ADS-B in the lower airspace and not 1090ES ADS-B.
The two are not compatible and could only exchange information through ground stations...
In fact the MITRE or any other UAT ADS-B unit would be illegal anywhere outside the US (as that frequency is used otherwise).
The survey does not apply for anyone flying outside the US.

And while we are at it: $200 in components translates to an end user price of at least $1200 and that's without certification, the user interface and GPS...
If you don't believe me: how much does a modern transponder cost in components? And what's the end user price? See?

[bookworm]

To make matters more complicated:
The US plans to adapt UAT ADS-B in the lower airspace and not 1090ES ADS-B.


Spot on. And hatzflyer has an aspect of this right. There is very much a technology standards battle going on.

1090ES is, in many ways, a lousy datalink. It's low bandwidth, and the spectrum is already congested. But it has the advantage that the transponders are already installed in a good proportion of the world's fleet.

UAT was a valiant effort by MITRE at taking a clean sheet of paper and designing a general purpose datalink. As well as being used for traffic info, it could be used for weather and other such stuff. Plenty of bandwidth, and in the US at least, reasonable spectrum availability. But it's another piece of kit that has to find its way into or behind the panel.

When I looked at them, I could see no first-principles reason why a UAT system would come out cheaper or lower power than a 1090ES system. It's all about volumes and certification costs. If any state other than the US were to propose this technology, it would be madness, as it would never get established. But there is just a chance that there's enough volume within the US that UAT will be viable as a technology.

[MIT-ICAT]

To make matters more complicated:
The US plans to adapt UAT ADS-B in the lower airspace and not 1090ES ADS-B.
The two are not compatible and could only exchange information through ground stations...
In fact the MITRE or any other UAT ADS-B unit would be illegal anywhere outside the US (as that frequency is used otherwise).
The survey does not apply for anyone flying outside the US.

And while we are at it: $200 in components translates to an end user price of at least $1200 and that's without certification, the user interface and GPS...
If you don't believe me: how much does a modern transponder cost in components? And what's the end user price? See?Urs is correct except for a couple of aspects:
- Anybody can take the survey. We are interested in where the soaring community in general sees value from ADS-B.
- The MITRE unit is expected to cost around $1000 on the market -- that includes the GPS and uses your own PDA (such as a Blackberry) as the user interface/display.
- For people interested in UAT vs. 1090ES, I have a couple of posts at ads-bforga.********.com on that dilemma.

EDIT: I guess they don't want the link to work...

Also, could you point me toward where you found that UAT would be illegal outside the US? I was not aware of that.

[Urs]

- Anybody can take the survey. We are interested in where the soaring community in general sees value from ADS-B.
Except that most of that 'value' will never be available with 1090ES ADS-B due to bandwidth limitations... So it misleads non-US pilots about ADS-B capabilities.

The survey is very funny:
Would you like to have a nice house?
How about a nice house with a nice car?
Hmmm, how about a nice house with a nice car and an airplane?
Please rate from low- to high benefit...
The answers are 100% predictable, so why bother?
You should show that survey to your Duncan Simester (MIT Sloan Marketing Professor) he would probably suggest some improvements (like: "discard the results and try again...")

- The MITRE unit is expected to cost around $1000 on the market -- that includes the GPS and uses your own PDA (such as a Blackberry) as the user interface/display.

Except that MITRE will never offer the unit to end customers and it is not known if an uncertified GPS will ever be legal to use as data source.

Also, could you point me toward where you found that UAT would be illegal outside the US? I was not aware of that.
The frequency UAT runs on is used for other purposes / equipment depending on which country you are in...

[mary meagher]

Was it a few months ago that Dutch pilots reported that when things got really busy on a good soaring day, ATC asked everyone please switch off your transponders, guys, we can't cope with that density of blips!

Nobody on this thread has said a word about looking out. All keen to install the latest technology, a moving map, a radio with ATC to keep you from harm. How about a little statue of St.Christopher fitted over the Brunswick tube?

The only important instrument for avoiding traffic in the glider is the basic GPS that helps one avoid airspace infringements. And the audible vario.

Otherwise, keep looking OUTSIDE the cockpit, please.

[BackPacker]

Was it a few months ago that Dutch pilots reported that when things got really busy on a good soaring day, ATC asked everyone please switch off your transponders, guys, we can't cope with that density of blips!

Well, uhm, yes, that's the gist of it. (It wasn't actually about glider pilots, but powered pilots, all near/under the approaches to Schiphol Airport. So now transponders are mandatory but you're not allowed to switch them on in certain places... Not a proud moment in the history of Dutch aviation. I hear that the situation should improve soon.)

But to be honest, I think that's the sort of information that the survey would need to include as well. If everyone and everything that flies is going to carry some sort of device that transmits its position (whether that's FLARM, ADS-B, mode-S or something else) there is a significant risk of information overload. Both for ATC and for pilots who rely on TCAS and similar.

You are going to need some clever technology and some clever operating procedures to make sure only the relevant information is shown. For ATC this means a better filtering capability so that irrelevant blips can be filtered out, and better heuristics as to the on-screen placement of the data blocks that belong to a blip. (The main problem in NL was that the data blocks were always overlapping, so information could not be read on the screen.) You may actually need to revise separation minima - the current minima are based on current technological capabilities. Once you know better where everybody is and what they're doing you can maybe bring the minima down.

But you also need clever operating procedures. For instance only activating the transponder once you are released from the winch. 'cause if you are already transmitting during the winch launch, TCAS onboard an airliner is going to extrapolate your zoom climb and issue an advisory even when the airliner is at 5000 feet and your winch launch is going to run out of steam at 1500'.

And of course there's the practical issue of battery power in a non-powered aircraft, getting a proper ground plane for a transponder antenna in a composite aircraft, finding space for all this stuff in a limited panel and so forth. Oh, and getting pilots trained in the proper use of the equipment: Last year when I did my weeks gliding course, the transponder was turned to "alt" virtually as soon as the planes were rolled out of the hangar in the morning, and was not touched at all throughout the day. Even when the planes were rolled aside after landing and not being used for a while, the transponders were happily responding to interrogations. Not an optimum use of battery capacity, and not a good operating procedure either.