Air China Cargo the new ASL

[Saturn]

After reading the latest CX magazine I was furious. They are blatantly rubbing it in our faces. Two full page articles on it. So it really needs to be addressed.

Firstly, it is NOT a new JV! It is an exsisting operation that CX is donating to in both cash and aircraft.

Secondly, These aircraft were flown by CX pilots and parked because of the downturn. If they came back there might be a need for more crew. Let's say we need 10 crew per aircraft. There would be 40 Capt's 40's Fo's and perhaps another 20 as relief. The Capt slots would have to go by strick seniority and SO's would get to upgrade and may be even a need for new hires. ALL ON FULL PAY. No more freighter BS.

THIS IS ANOTHER ASL PERIOD! The statement that more aircraft might be going as well made me wanna divert and park their fuc**** aircraft.

Guys and gals we have to stop this madness! These were/are our jobs!

I am calling on the AOA for immediate action on this!:mad:

[AAIGUY]

Threaten strike ala the cabin crew and follow through.

Anything else won't work.

The time is NOW> STRIKE.

[Liam Gallagher]

Western jobs relocating to China where labour is cheaper. It's a global issue and certainly not unique to us and has been going on for years. Better unions than the AOA have flexed their muscles over this only to lose.

[Capt Vertigo]

Better unions than the AOA have flexed their muscles over this only to lose.

Liam

Well said, fully gree with you. Global economy is changing and have to be practical and accept the hay days are over. :sad:

Parking aircraft will not change and any effect on the buisness model that is slowly changing. ;)

Happy flying in the mean time mate.!

[The Wraith]

Well, if better unions than the AOA have tried and failed, what, then, is the point of the AOA?
:ugh:

[nudger]

After the 2001 and abandoning 49 guys. NO POINT.

Your union is done! Get used to it.

[Rook]

What a stupid comment.

[FOCX]

Well, we now know why they agreed to get rid of the freighter divide; they never intended to have to pay pax rates for flying the freighter as they well knew that the JV would kill any need to do that! So they got what they wanted at nearly no cost to them! We were out smarted, simple as that.

[Sqwak7700]

We were out smarted, simple as that.

Outsmarted? Sorry, but that would imply that we are active participants. It is very easy to win a chess match against someone who is not even playing. And that is the reality of the situation.

Our union is a joke, not because of our representatives, but because our membership doesn't even give a ****t enough to even vote. What point is there in getting everybody on-board if the guys that are already members don't even care enough to vote on important issues like FDAP?

The reason the FAs got their way is that 500 of them showed up at Hello Kitty City ready to sweat it out. When is the last time you saw 500 CX pilots together for any cause besides rugby sevens or a fleet party? It has nothing to do with how much you have to loose, it has to do with backbone and enough foresight to know that every little thing taken is twice as hard to get back. You think the FAs have power? You have the same power, you just lack backbone. You have to care about the issues and be willing to be an active participant.

Until our 49er/Ansett/****ty-job (pick whichever you like) mentally-scarred group get over it and start caring we will always loose to the company - and they know it just as much as we do. :yuk:

[Captain Dart]

I've taken the advice of some previous posters on this thread. I have been thinking about the 'point' of the AOA, 'got used to' the union being 'done' and have 'accepted' that the 'hay (sic) days are over'.

Now what do I do? I'll become a spelling Nazi. 'Loose' means not secure, as in brain between ears. When used in the context of not retaining something, such as spelling ability,


it's 'LOSE'.

A previous Cathay Pacific CEO once allegedly referred to his pilots as 'million dollar morons'. Now we have an internet forum, viewed by thousands, where pilots openly bag the only organisation attempting to protect their interests, with poor spelling and grammar into the bargain. Either some of these posters are management stooges, or maybe he was right.

[airplaneridesrfun]

guys, you are wasting your time posting on here with all the mgt weenies chiming in. go to the AOA board, much more intelligent posts there.

[raven11]

I agree with Sqwak7700.

Why can’t our Union get even a fraction of the respect the Company gives the cabin crew? That’s what I’d like to know.

I’ve been pondering how our terms and conditions have deteriorated over the past few years while the cabin crew have held on to theirs. Why has the Company’s respect for their pilots deteriorated, while they tiptoe around the cabin crew?

For instance, on overseas patterns, the cabin crew stays twice as long as we do (48 hours recovery time, while we get 18-24 hours to recover and then fly back). They argue that they need this as rest. The Company gives in. Inference…it’s legal, and the pilots don’t require as much rest.

Our FTL’s have become performance targets which crew control roster us to. Some of the regional patterns defy belief, where pilots are positioned on a freighter for 12 hours, so they operate the third sector home (usually into discretion), while the first crew positions home on the last sector. The end result, an 18-hour duty on a regional sector, flying in and out of some of the most challenging airports on the planet! This pattern is rostered like this to save the hotel costs (while the cabin crew hotel costs on their 48 hour rest patterns are considered sacrosanct). The Company does not, and will not, roster cabin crew like this. Inference…it’s legal, and the pilots don’t require as much rest.

Two pilots rostered to fly through the night to Australia when our FTL’s call for a minimum of three pilots. We take this to court and LOSE!!! Inference…it’s legal, and the pilots don’t require as much rest.

On a Middle Eastern pattern ISD are paying the cabin crew more allowances than the cockpit crew. Our GMA in a letter to the crew stated this, only in passing, as if it didn’t matter why ISD felt the need to do this while flight ops didn’t. Inference…you tell me!!!!

And to avoid any form of confrontation with the cabin crew, the DFO admits in his weekly letter that the Company will pay two seperate cabin crew to fly the same hours (one of which will receive overtime)?????

Don’t get me wrong, I support our cabin crew and applaud their success. But shouldn’t the AOA give it's collective head a shake and learn a lesson or two from all this? Shouldn’t we all? We keep getting weekly letters from the Union giving us updates on the Company's intransigence to our concerns, but what if anything is ever done?

The AOA needs to let the Company know that now that the financial house is in order, our concerns need the same love and attention the Company give to the cabin crew.
　
　

　

[Captain Dart]

Airplanerides and Raven, you make good points, but posting on the HKAOA fora is 'preaching to the choir'. It is only read by AOA members, not by the informed public, not by prospective CX pilots and not by management (I would be worried if it was). It is also not read by those I call 'passengers' (CX pilots who don't pay their dues).

Well thought-out posts here, properly checked before the 'Submit Reply' button is clicked, can get through most intelligent readers' bullsh#t filters. And if we can get just one or two of our pilots to man up and join the Association it is further proof of the magic of the internet.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

The AOA needs to let the Company know that now that the financial house is in order, our concerns need the same love and attention the Company give to the cabin crew.



What the AOA needs to do is DEMAND a PAYRISE,threaten to STRIKE, and actually follow through if this demand is not met!:eek:

(Now I'll wait for the usual "will you be first in line" from some of the tossers in these forums..).

Any other suggestions girls? Don't know about you, but my patience is fast wearing thin with Tyler-the-Liar and his cronies.:yuk:

[goathead]

The main problem with our AOA is the LEADERSHIP.
IT NEEDS A STRUCTURAL CHANGE .
Less committee style dawdling and shadow boxing.
Can you imagine CX being run by a committee ???
Look at ourselves , looks what is going on at the moment , in the last few months , the last few years....it's all gone down hill and it's going to keep doing so until we change the way we run it.:ugh:

[nudger]

So Rook... the union isn't all but busted?

[Guava Tree]

Saturn said:
"THIS IS ANOTHER ASL PERIOD! The statement that more aircraft might be going as well made me wanna divert and park their fuc**** aircraft."

The problem is that bad language, implied or inferred, does not win good friends. Nor does it make the writer appear to be a "Professional".

[Sqwak7700]

Captain Dart:

It is people like yoU that got uS Into the situation we aRe in. Nagging about spelling and grAmmaR whEn there are more importAnt things to worry about. Let me guess, if you were on a ship and it was sinking you would be busy re-arranging deCk-chairs... not sUrprised.

Or maybe you are one of the maNy morons thaT are participating in this new ad campaign? I would love to make my own ad, but I doubt Cathay would like it.

But I guess people like you need everything spelled out... :ugh:

[simplex]

the union isn't all but busted?
The AOA ceased to be a union or relevant the day Gardner and Co. abandoned the 49ers by doing a sleazy deal to benefit management. Many of those 49ers were committee members and negotiators and we were double crossed.
A video club with 1,000 members or a video club with 10,000 members is still just that: a video club.

[Captain Dart]

Read my posts carefully, Sqwak. Do you really think I would be one of those idiots promoting themselves in the company 'do it yourself' ads? :rolleyes:

I would also be interested to know what salary scale you accepted when you joined CX ('if it wasn't for people like you...'). I'll bet London to a brick that it was less than mine.

Sonny, an important part of professional aviation is precision and attention to detail. When you post, supposedly as a Cathay Pacific pilot, your words are read by hundreds, if not thousands, including probably management.

Don't present yourself as a 'million dollar moron'.

[4 driver]

Gentleman;
Everytime you slander or complain about the "AOA" it is the Cathay Pacific Pilots you put down.
We are the AOA !!!
If you don't like it, run for leadership.
Quite your whining and be part of the solution.

[Captain Dart]

Agreed. And it's time for contract compliance, and 'no jump seat' policy for non-members of the HKAOA. Enough is enough.

[pacific blues]

how is not giving non hkaoa people jump seats going to fix the problem? as goathead said, the main problem is the leadership not the membership.

[Captain Dart]

Some may say that 'the main problem is the leadership' (to quote a previous poster), but the HKAOA is the only game in town, and is`only as effective as the involvement of its members. Blaming the leadership is just a cop-out for many, a lame excuse for inaction and non-involvement.

However, whatever one's views:

Contract compliance sends a message to management that conditions of service have been eroded enough; recent action by the cabin crew is noteworthy for its result.
'No jump seats to non-members' sends a message to those riding on the backs of their fellow pilots that it's time to man up, pay the money, have a voice and do their bit. It is my opinion that the non-members have been 'soft soaped' enough.

[Some How I'm Tired]

Kudos Captain Dart,

The only people that would whinge about the "no Jump Seat" comment are non-members who are a minority and who are willing to ride off the coat-tails of the AOA who negotiates everything to do with THEIR lives, yet they are too gutless to be part of the movement.

[Flap10]

too gutless to be part of the movement.And how many of the brave AoA members rolled over and signed SLS/CoS08????

No jump seats to non-membersCaptain Fart you think people are going to give a sh!t whether or not they get the jumpseat.

And when a non-AoA member calls you for a J/S, will you be brave enough to tell him no to his face??? Talk is cheap!!!!

The million dollar moron himself.

I agree with Simplex!!!

The AOA ceased to be a union or relevant the day Gardner and Co. abandoned the 49ers by doing a sleazy deal to benefit management


And lets not forget that there were people warning the membership that the deal MG had on the table was detrimental to the 49ers, but guess what, the membership turned a blind eye to it and voted in the agreement. The 3% subs were becoming an inconvenience. So please take you chest pounding somewhere else, it is falling on deaf ears.

[Captain Dart]

We have another one: 'abandonment of the 49ers' (now years old) is another excuse for not being involved. I'll put that one down along with 'the problem is the leadership'.

Captains do not have to tell anyone 'to their face' that they cannot have the jump seat; jump seat applicants are mostly processed (or not :E) on the Crew Direct website. Then there's always 'sorry old chap, it's Association policy... why don't you become a member?'.

Many jump seat requests are from 'commuters', who often very much 'give a sh!t' whether they get a jump seat or not. They are on full Hong Kong salaries and allowances, mostly not paying tax in their 'home' country and some of them A-scale. There are a few of these gentlemen still too lousy to pay a few bucks a month to the HKAOA to support their fellow pilots.

Flap 10, you are a comic genius. Changing 'Captain Dart' to 'Captain Fart'! I would never have thought up that one! :D

Although after the curry and beer I had last night, maybe a change to that nom de guerre may be appropriate...

[Johnny Drama]

"Captains do not have to tell anyone 'to their face' that they cannot have the jump seat; jump seat applicants are mostly processed (or not :E) on the Crew Direct website"

You gutless piece of crap!

Just so we are clear, you want to punish the individuals who do not believe in membership of the AOA in an attempt to increase the membership of the AOA? So now, said individuals will be forced to pay the measly membership dues to secure their commuting jump seat? Result - another member who joins for the wrong reason, does not vote or take action on any of the issues but allows the AOA 'jihadist's' to spout to the company what a large majority of crew we have in our union and how powerful we now are:D

The problem is not the leadership of the AOA, it is the army of 'alleged' followers who could not stick together on sticky the stick insects sticky bun! If we were united then we could elect a leadership that focused on the goals we were ALL committed to and take the action required. The FAU are successful because their united, they respect their leadership and are not afraid of the company. The AOA will never be successful because it is not, we do not and enough are definitely afraid. The vast majority of CC do not care about their careers (yes I know there are some that do and proud of it) and have very little to lose by sticking to their principles. Most do not care if they work here or at Disneyland and the company knows that. They give CX no loyalty and they expect none in return - with absolutely no disrespect intended, for most, it is just a job!

A smart union employs smart people and uses the resources sensibly and tactically. Look at the BA strike, the company claimed success by 'only losing 21million pounds'. You think if we lost that because of industrial action, the management of this 'profit at the expense of everything else' company would still be employed? How many BA CC voted for strike action simply because of membership rather than because of belief - apart from the 3000 minority, enough of them and just like our CC, they will win some of what they seek in the long run because the company is AFRAID of them, what they will do and how much money it will cost the shareholders. The company had to introduce swapping restrictions because of a 'minority' that were regularly abusing the system. Why not put restrictions on the few abusers? Because it was not about that, it was about a tool for illustrating who was in control of who. Fortunately because of the strong will of the FAU, the company got a good Beach slapping!! :ouch:

The only way to stop this company from eroding the COS is to put the airplanes on the ground and that will never happen, unless the CC do it. Sure, vote for contract compliance :ok: Good luck getting the 'body' to agree and then getting the 'body' to do it. Perhaps Captain Dart can oversee the process and ban Captains from their own Jump Seat use when they do not just comply with their contract :ugh: How many crews out there are already practicing their own contract compliance? Not enough and most AOA members? If your not, then you are your own worst enemy and get everything you deserve. You do not have to be in the AOA or as smart as Captain Dart to understand what the future is for the COS in this company.

Here is a radical suggestion, why not get all the crews on bases who are legally protected to take industrial action against the company to withdraw labor for a few days at a time. What!!! :eek: You mean do something powerful and tactical that would really make a difference and send a very powerful message to the company that we have had enough. You mean something like the FAU would do if they could? The company could not stop my housing or education allowance because I don't get one but wait, why should the people on bases be the ones to make the stand when all those pilots in the paradise of Hong Kong are living it up in expensive company paid properties and enjoying that low tax rate on their constantly eroding HKD salary? AND what will the company do to me if I do that. After all, I have so many friends who are now unemployed and have taken big pay cuts to save their jobs and I do love going down to the pub every night or a baseball game on the weekends. Oh there is the phone, CC on my day off. Hello...... :\

Before you all start spitting on your keyboards and PM'ing me hate mail, I am not having a go at based people, A scalers, B scalers, C&T or Freighter pilots but it's an example of what could be done and illustrates the sad reality of our position. Nobody is prepared to do anything for anyone else, even when it would be a decisive act simply because they do not believe enough in the cause or have been beaten enough in the past. The company relies on that attitude and probably recruits with that in mind to ensure they always win any dispute.

If the AOA want to do something meaningful and increase the membership, join up with the FAU and become a super majority. Maybe it is being talked about, maybe it is not, maybe it is possible, maybe it is not. I am not suggesting we let the FAU fight our battles but they could certainly teach us a thing or two about how to deal with the company. In reality they do not need us at all so why bother even discussing it with us. Besides, we are far too proud and smart to take their advice anyway :cool:

On second thoughts, let us just ban non-members from Jump Seats, the Golf Club and the Yacht Club. That will certainly show the company we mean business :confused:

[The Wraith]

Johnny Drama.....

...you have hit the nail on the head! Sad but true.

:D:D:D

[Captain Dart]

Johnny Drama (you have a very appropriate nom de guerre), it is the non-members of the Association who are 'gutless', and they should not be allowed to leech off the goodwill of those who support the Association, including captains who allow the privilege of jump seats.

I repeat, we've soft-soaped the non-members long enough, the 'have a voice' approach has gone on long enough, and the bleating on Pprune has gone on long enough.

I propose direct action: 'no jump seats for non-members'.

I do agree that after the onshoring of the bases is complete, anything is possible (there may be people one step ahead of you). Your statements confirm that membership of the Association, especially on the bases, is vital.

For example, there is a very capable and hard-working AOA team negotiating the package for the Australian base; management is actually complaining about how 'difficult' negotiations are. It's not Hong Kong where the big 'hongs' can say 'ay yah we do wha' we want'. However, the Association is concerned about the number of non-members on that base; these individuals jeopardise the efforts of the team and also reap the reward of any gains without contributing anything.

Finally, a word of advice: learning the correct use of apostrophes and refraining from personal abuse would add a little credibility to your posts.

[pasa001]

Please tell me what rewards you are referring to? I've seen nothing but decreasing conditions of service, (CPT Dart) I’m sure you were the first in line to walk out on the 49ers. I'm disgusted with the likes of you. Were you at the 49ers trial to support your fellow fallen pilots? I was there and I can tell you that from the CX pilot body only three (Yes three) current CX pilots showed up to support them. #$%@ Off! Grow some balls and then criticize the non-members when you are willing to put your job on the line. Coward!!! I quite the AOA because I can't stand people like YOU!!! All talk and no morals.

[Captain Dart]

I couldn't make the trial due to roster, and I agree that the turnout was pathetic. However, I financially contributed to the Cathay Pilots Union over many years until the 49ers got to the steps of the courthouse. I wear my yellow-banded AOA tie pin with pride.

Now that 'people like me' have made you 'quite' (sic) the AOA, you had better hope that your are not involved in an incident or accident, because IFALPA will not be there to help you. And good luck negotiating better conditions as just one, alone, of 2000 + pilots against the Swire Group. I understand that the DFO has an 'open door policy'.

Be sure to post again letting us all know how you are getting on.

[pasa001]

You worked every single day during the trial? not one day off during the two weeks? I think not. You where just scared like the rest (Nicky might see you there and you would pay for it one day) I'm glad you support the CPU financially but do you really support the 49er? Your AOA died the day the pilot body cut those 49 gentlemen loose.

[Captain Dart]

Not all of us are based in Hong Kong, Pasa. See my previous posts for 'excuses not to be an HKAOA member'. Good luck on your own.

[pasa001]

If I @#$%- up in a jet I'm willing to ware the consequences, what I'm not willing to do is compromise what I believe in. One of my best friends is a 49er and I could not look him in the face if I were a AOA member. This is the same establishment that swore to protect it's membership ( what a joke) .Good luck with your future as well, let me know how it all goes for you. The company laughs at the AOA and it will continue to erode your conditions because the AOA membership is not moral enough to stand by its word.

[Johnny Drama]

Dart, thank you for all the advice and for the appreciation of my nom de guerre, although I am sure you do not understand it :confused:

Have corrected my previous post for all those errors you pointed out, was far too busy checking the non-members list against all those JS requests to proof read it. You see, was never very good at the Times Crossword, always too busy managing the flight, talking on the wireless and of course keeping an eye on that freeloader sat on the jump seat :suspect:

Sorry mate but if you think that hiding behind crew direct to perform your own brand of industrial racism makes you some type of hero then you are completely gutless and I would be surprised if many people would disagree. The fact that you believe awarding JS requests as a privilege, also makes you a complete pompous T**T. Ooops, there goes my credibility again :confused: I, on the other hand, consider it a privilege to be in a position to award said requests in order to help pilots, office workers and their families who desperately rely on those seats to improve their quality of life, regardless of their own personal beliefs. If it cannot be awarded, for any reason, I always send a Groupwise explaining why because that is the way I would like to be treated when I make a request for myself or one of my family members. I fortunately do not commute anymore but feel very privileged to be on your list Dart :)

If the AOA want to increase the membership they have to do a better job of convincing people that in a crisis with the company, they can make a real difference. Do you honestly believe they have done that Dart? The standard rebuttal of "the company will do what they want to do anyway, with or without the AOA" is hard to argue with and the standard response of "imagine what the company would do without the AOA" just does not cut it anymore. If they have made life difficult for the company in AUS then good, use that information as a recruiting tool ISO controlling what people need in order to get their compliance. That is a company tactic and we all know how we respond to that. AUS style scab lists are not the way to make make friends and influence people in a positive way.

Good luck with your WITCH HUNT Dart, I for one will not vote for it as it will do nothing more than make you happy. You have almost convinced me to quit and reap all the rewards through your dollar though. Well done old chap :ugh:

[pacific blues]

Ahh, couldn't make the trial due roster, not hong kong based..... had to bend over in the end because no other option.:hmm:

[Steve the Pirate]

Hi Johnny

This from your Wikipedia profile:

He is a pompous, self-important individual...Only quoting, not saying I'm agreeing!

Actually, I agree with both you and Captain Dart in many respects. I don't agree with Dart's no jumpseat policy but hey, everyone's entitled to their point of view. I think it's fair to say that you both come across as people who want to achieve something but I don't think that having a punch up about it is the way to go - still, that is part of the fun of this forum, let's face it.

STP

Johnny, nice pick up on the "privelige"/"privilege" in your earlier post....

[Captain Dart]

Ground staff, cabin crew, and members of the HKAOA and DPA are always welcome on my jump seat! Enjoy the ride :ok:.

[pauli767]

Gee Captain Dart,

You must be proud of yourself. A self righteous "A scale" boy. Sorry there are so many loooooooossssers( sic) on this forum. BTW, dude, I have a BSc. Do you, most educated one. I would not be so condescending to your colleagues who don't spell in such an elegant way as yourself. So what, they are pilots; not English teachers!

Must be all that schooling at Rugby School eh? I can you see now in Central, in the bar, pounding the flesh, with your seniority members. Holding court with the 3rd floor crew. my god, how proud you are.

You are a legend in your own mind. BTW, sweetheart, check your mail box at CX Citi la! Be careful opening the envelope......LOL

[Johnny Drama]

Thanks for the heads up Steve!

I try to avoid reading my own press. Most critics are not smart enough to distinguish between the dry humour and sharp cutting wit I bring to my performance on screen and without which I might add, the show would not have the success it has today, and the attributes you have highlighted from Wiki.

A very common criticism of Wikipedia is its inconsistent and unauthoritative submission model. The encyclopedia allows anybody to edit its pages, even anonymously - I have never played a dead body on NYPD Blue :\

Well done for spotting the irony in the name though. As I always say when on set -"Johnny, always try to take yourself seriously because nobody else ever will":cool:

For the record - When I played the boxer next to Tony Danza, in who's the Boss (missed in the Wiki credits BTW!) we always said 'its only a punch up if you have an opponent'. Dart couldn't tie his shorts with both hands and a map :ouch:

Loved all your Caribbean movies Steve, good luck with number 4 and the Oscar for the Hatter - Masterpiece!

[Steve the Pirate]

Johnny

You'll always have an Entourage! Thanks for the plaudits but I still think Edward was my best role....

STP

[Air Profit]

Paulie. A BSc huh...? Yes, the eloquence and grammatical precision of your statement is a real testament to the value of a BSc. Does the school offer refunds...? :ugh:

[water check]

I wonder if some of the -8's will go to the new 'asl'...?