When will enough be truly enough?

[Saturn]

Just wondering how much more we will take??? The FAU was willing to strike after being told a change in their bid system was forthcoming and the company backed down. In the last two years this is what has happended to us;

Direct entry captains...(we should have said no to this but the AOA signed off on this)
COS 08... only for new hires but we now know the real story.
Forced SLS...(AOA signed off on this too)
Continual violations of our COS... ex, if you are not on COS 08 you cannot prefer port. If you change your PX, which they often use to reduce EFP, you lose your credit. Crew being abandoned in stations with no hotel told not entitled but falling asleep in lobbies in uniform. We can no longer wear it off duty now.
Bypass pay... Lies by the company

Now we are going to watch more of our jobs sent to other carriers, Air China for one. Recently, heard that a question was asked of another managment liar about additional aircraft to Air China. What happens after the 4 BCF's. Answer, as the -8's arrive more B747's will go to Air China. Air China is advertising all over the internet for crews. THESE ARE OUR JOBS!

How much more will we take until we say enough is enough. Threatening to take them to court and the recent media blitz isn't enough. It's time to get the same set of balls our F/A's have as well as the BA F/A's.:ugh:

[crewsunite]

Lets focus on the big stuff!

Stop fancy footing around

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Violations of COS: PXing on Freighters, FO & SO Bypass Pay, SO career degradation

[Ex Douglas Driver]

and remember that we're fighting just to defend or receive what is legally ours, let alone trying to get anything more.... Payrise, Rostering Practices & AFTLS, properly and honestly negotiated contract changes, Housing etc

[yokebearer]

When will enough be truly enough?

NEVER - there will always be 10 000 other clowns in worse circusses than yours waiting to take your place....and management knows it.

[Slayed]

The FAU were sucessful because they are a union. Now I know that many in CX won't understand what that means, so I have cut and pasted a definition from a dictionary website.

"union - definition of union - An organization of workers joined to protect their common interests and improve their working conditions."

Now does that sound like the AOA? No. We look more like something from the Life of Brian - the Peoples Front of Judea wanting to beat the crap out of the Judean Peoples Front while the Romans shaft us from behind.

Until we can learn to forgive and forget all our differences, get the membership percentage higher and be able to bargain with management from a position of strength, we are going to continue to watch our Ts and Cs erode.

It's our choice.

[boxjockey]

While not trying to reduce the effectiveness of the FAU, the reality is very few of them have as far to fall as we do. Perhaps for the ISMs and SPs, it is a difficult job to replace, but for the rest it doesn't take much to make up for the loss of their job. I am 100% supportive of the AOA, and I do feel we are horribly ineffective in many ways, but you are comparing apples and oranges.

box

[EXEZY]

I presume the pilots in Lufthansa had a bit to loose also?

[boxjockey]

You are 100% correct, but they also know they have some of the strongest work protections on this planet. I am willing to go toe-to-toe with anyone for us to better our position, and trust me, I believe it is FAR OVERDUE. The problems are 1) We still need a stronger membership, and LEADERSHIP 2)We don't enjoy nearly the level of protections that the Europeans do.

box

[crewsunite]

We have to do something and soon. This is becoming a joke!

We need more professionals to Neg.
We need to brain storm ways & solutions to this..

I heard they are sending out Rumors that their will be no more S/O hires.
Only Cadets, on local terms. (Applications are still coming in, interviews are solid )


C Scale is here.. What are u going to do about it?
1) Say it does not effect me - Wrong, in time it will be like the Devils Shadow eroding everything you think is secure today!

49 Case, Air China -- hymm, Direct entry Captains, Bye Pass pay, Housing lobbying, Inflation, Cos08, RA 65, basings, Intimidation!

Be Smart! And stay on the Big Picture... We need PROFESSIONAL HELP!
We have problems chaps big problems!!!

[M89speedtouch]

You don't need professionals. Try testicles.

YouTube - Flight Attendant Union EGM emergency meeting 19 March, 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ0oLoDMgMQ)

[goathead]

When Are We Getting A Payrise.
When Will The Aoa Stop Writing Childish Emails.
When Do I Get My Payrise .
When Will The Aoa Stop Cracking This Old Chestnut Line.
When Do I Get My Payrise.
When Will The Aoa Send Me A Decent Constructive Email, With Out Committee Titbits Written By Wtf.
Blah Blah Blah The List Goes On.....

[SMOC]

Goathead,

Join the committee and sort it out! :ok:

[Humber10]

How about voicing your opinions on the AOA site. There are a lot of good valid points here, but they will all fall on deaf ears here. At least if it is on an AOA forum the GC will be aware of your gripe.

[goathead]

Until there is a fundamental change in the way we operate the AOA then there is no point.Our committee is run like the international whaling committee, i.e useless.
Soon hopefully everyone will get it.
Until we have a board of directors made up of lawyers and industrial advisors who sit on top of the committee, we are going nowhere .Just the same old story.

[Steve the Pirate]

So goathead, let me get this straight. You think we would be likely to achieve more if we employ a bunch of professionals who would form a "board of directors"? Any idea of the costs you'd find acceptable to achieve this with respect to increased subscriptions?

Professional advice sounds brilliant in theory but there are 2 factors which weigh heavily against any possible tangible benefit from the added expense:

1. We're not a "closed shop" and, therefore, will never have 100% membership.

2. As a direct result of 1 above, there will only ever be a limited amount of risk that individual members will be prepared to take, regardless of the "professionalism" of the advice or instruction.

What we need is not increased cost but increased membership. As someone else has pointed out, if you don't like the way the Association is going at the moment you should put your name forward in the upcoming GC elections.

Any union is only as strong as its membership, both in numbers and attitude.

STP

[Liam Gallagher]

Go to the threads various on pprune regarding the success or otherwise of the BA Cabin crew strike.

Have a good read and then walk around Kitty City and see how many of your fellow pilots are wearing their AOA lanyards. Perhaps sky blue is just not their colour??

As for the FAU; how would their sabre-rattling progress if Toeknee borrowed a play from "Willie's book of tricks" and threatened/promised that any cabin crew who went on strike would have their ID travel permanently removed?

Get real.....

[Bob Hawke]

I think there is a certain fear factor (how extraordinary!) at Kitty City that makes some not wear ones new blue lanyard.

Had a very interesting chat with a chap from another very close airline recently who has considerable union background and it would seem there are ways of getting around the expensive external negotiator way of doing things, but it takes a concerted effort by all members and committee players to participate, and it doesn't amount to strike action, nor any other simplistic actions like sick outs.

The legal process is usually the best, but it must be on going, with good resourced individuals and support. Bleating over pprune doesn't amount to much.

[goathead]

Bleating is good what is wrong with it , it raises good points on both sides .

STP good points , but I just don't see the committee really getting too many results, i.e where is the 25 yr housing ? where is the payrise we all deserve?

Why is it taking soooo long to get these things done ?

What are the numbers involved in getting some professional help? you tell me ? what does the AOA take in subs per month ? must be over 1.5mill right ? So why can't we afford it ?

The problem with committees is that there is too much personal agendas , however well intended and it all gets left behind on the sidelines on what are the facts on what should be solved first.Thats why i'm just not interested in banging my head against a wall.How often are you guys togethor? Once every 6 months ? It's amateur we need more constant work at this one , not a meeting every 6 months or whatever ....

[Wobblywonker]

"THESE ARE OUR JOBS!"


Therein lies your problem..........you believe the World (or CX) owes you :ugh:


Time to grow up, move on, and get a life outside of CX if you can :ok:

[Steve the Pirate]

I like it - "bleating", "goathead" - very funny!

Anyway, I digress. As far as income goes I have no idea, likewise I have no idea about how often the GC meet. However, I think it would be reasonable to assume that if we were to hire a greater number of professional advisers than we currently use then subscription rates would have to rise. At some point, individual members would have to be convinced of the benefit of the increased cost. If nothing were to happen as a result of the increased subscriptions then standby for a steady dwindling of numbers. If, however, there were quick results then possibly the opposite would be true. So, the GC are between a rock and a hard place on this one. We do need to bear in mind that in the past, the company have said that they wouldn't negotiate with anyone other than GC members.

I agree with your point about committees and personal agendas but I think rules here in HKG require some sort of democratic set up in a union as opposed to an autocracy. That being the case, any direction taken by a committee will depend upon the relative strengths of its members.

As far as 25 year housing etc goes, the GC can only ask for meetings to discuss these matters but if the other side prevaricate what can they do?

STP

[goathead]

STP
we have a committee that is currently undergunned lets face it.... how often do management change there leadership , every 2 years ? We have well intentioned good blokes who are volunteers who just don't have enough in the tank overall to be able to take on CX in a manner the will benefit all of the working pilots of CX .The problem is the way we are running the AOA as a whole . When was the last time the AOA or US as a pilot body actually took the time to review ourselves as a pilot body and see how we have done ?

Has this been looked at ? a change to the way we do things at the AOA? A change in our prospectus? are we getting caught behind the times by insisting on continuing with a AMATEUR way about going our business when we are dealing with pro's....

We have to take a look at ourselves do a review and hopefully make some changes otherwise we are doomed to fail , and that is for sure.

We owe it to the membership and we owe it too ourselves , because the current way of going about our business is not working.

BLEAT BLEAT

[The Wraith]

We need professional help, even if it costs. I think most members would happily increase their subs if it meant that we had someone at the table meeting CX at their level.
Wobblywonka....we are not "owed" a living by anyone, but if we sign a contract to do a job for set conditions then that should not change continually in the employer's favour. It is because of people like you with that attitude of "capitulate, quick, before I lose even more" that we are in this position.
I will always be a member of the AOA because they do need support, but as far as I am concerned they are essentially useless, as well intentioned as they may be. I am sick and tired of trying to defend them and sell them to new joiners as so far as I can make out they have done barely anything, other than continually send us weekly whingeing emails, to better our lot. Sure, they point out all the Company's wrongdoings but they do NOTHING to effectively change things.
I will be flamed now, but I don't care. When the AOA actually make a TANGIBLE gain...or even just a save....I will applaud them. But until then I will simply continue to delete their weekly updates which merely serve to inform the members of how toothless they are and do my job as per contract, nothing more, nothing less.

[goathead]

Cathay bows to union in roster-change row

MaryAnnBenitez

Friday, March 26, 2010

More than 800 Cathay flight attendants staged a protest at the airport yesterday despite the carrier canceling controversial duty-swapping guidelines.
The flight attendants said they will continue their fight for "equal work for equal pay," and have not ruled out strike action.

The airline's general manager for in-flight services, Charlie Stewart- Cox, issued a statement telling crew that "the company has canceled and will not reintroduce the guideline related to swapping [shifts] below [working] the 70 hours minimum."

The decision came after 12 hours of talks between management and the Cathay Pacific Airways Flight Attendants' Union on Tuesday and Wednesday.

The policy, announced on March 15, required cabin crew to work at least 70 hours in a month before they could swap shifts with colleagues.

Cathay immediately announced it was deferring its implementation indefinitely before announcing yesterday it has been scrapped.

Becky Kwan Siu-wah, vice chairwoman of the union, said they will seek to continue talks with management on the core issue of low hourly pay that has led to crew members swapping shifts.

"We welcome this decision to cancel [the guideline] but we are still very keen to continue with the talks regarding the other problems at hand. And these include first and foremost the remuneration package for the hourly pay crew because we think that is the core issue," she said.

"It is because of the low hourly pay rate that hourly pay crew need to swap to fly more to earn more ... We strongly feel that it is time to go for equal work for equal pay."

The union held a demonstration outside the airline's Cathay City headquarters, which is near the airport, to show their discontent over the decision to change the swap guidelines. A total of 854 members joined in the protest.

Asked if strike action over the Easter holidays is still on the cards, Kwan said she hoped talks will continue. "We hope we will never have to resort to further industrial action. We will not rule out escalating our action," she said.

Cathay corporate affairs director Quince Chong Wai-yin said: "We have listened to our staff."

[cxlinedriver]

The only time we will ever be able to make a stand against the complete wankers who manage us, is the time we are prepared to loose our jobs.

The cabin attendants can easily get another job with similar conditions and pay. They are prepared to be fired.

Due to seniority based employment we can not risk this job. Management know it.

During the go slow I estimate over halve the pilots did not comply with the AOA direction (maximum safety strategy) - regardless of what these ball-less 'men' would say in the plaza or at a Forum night.

So unless we are all prepared to risk it all, expect more of the same. I for one am not in a financial position to loose this job. Are you?

[quadspeed]

I for one am not in a financial position to loose this job. Are you?

Jesus, mate, you make great management. KQ couldn't have written it better himself.

The ones of us in the real world understand that a strong union is not mutually exclusive to keeping our jobs, and won't accept living in your so-well-described constant state of paranoia.

So no, I for one don't accept that standing up for ourselves means putting our jobs on the line. But if we don't take a stand soon, then our jobs (and our "financial position") truly will be at risk.

Which again begs the question. When will enough be truly enough?

[goathead]

All I want , on my wishlist is a strong union leadership to go right back to basics and start at the top of the list, A PAYRISE etc etc etc , before we talk about anything and give away anymore and ask for anything that is not worth worrying about now i.e more conveniance for 'roster swaps ' ...Payrise etc are the most important things that need addressing and then all the rest LEAST important details can be 'asked for'......And that includes LEP who signed a contract that DID NOT INCLUDE HOUSING......

And howabout those newsletters .........what about how to work to your contract.....

[Avius]

With all respect, the long-term gradual degradation of our T&C's is an industry-wide problem, not just CX. In fact, we in CX have somewhat better conditions, than most - not perfect, but still better.

The airline management's objective is to perform better on a relative basis to its peers (i.e. the other airlines), so in an overall declining environment, they just have to do more with less. Like it or not, but this is simply their job - and they all use the same tools: fear & greed.

As a group - we need to regain some control over the "fear & greed" factor which is the root of our problems. We can't control the external circumstances directly and unfortunately, there is no quick-fix, that would improve our T&C's overnight. Any viable solution would have to be long-term in nature.

The unions should redirect some of their emotionally loaded efforts from brainlessly battling their managements to constructive action, which would bear fruit over the longer term.

For example- some involvement and control of the quality of flight training in the flight-schools, would - over the long term- have an impact over the supply of pilots into the market place.

As a market consequence, this inevitably would lift the T&C's in the longer term. Once T&C's stop declining and begin improving, it might even be possible to advocate a different seniority system (perhaps based on the issue date of the ATPL, etc.) making it possible to move laterally between Airlines, thus creating a true job market for pilots.

The airline managements then would adapt to these "external" circumstances just as they do to increasing oil prices.