Headsets for open cockpits

[kevmusic]

This would normally go in Medical and Health but I specifically want to target open-cockpit pilots, so here goes.

After getting the PPL my dream is to graduate onto the Tiger Club's Turbs by way of the Tiger Moth; and yesterday I took the first step by booking a session with one of their check pilots. I've flown open cockpit before, when I was much younger - loved it, and that's why I'm doing it now. I don't have a helmet and goggles so the Club loaned me a set. My Sennheisers weren't compatible as there was a set of 'phones in place in the helmet. I must say, it all looked the part - the mouthpiece clipped loosely in place and the goggles went over my specs no problem. So it was all fine on the ground.

I don't remember much about my joyrides in a Tiger and a Pitts back in '81 so I'd read a bit about flying the Tiger on the web. Nobody mentioned the noise. It was bl***y deafening! :eek: I think the problem was the ill-fitting headset, particularly the mouthpiece. The 80 knot blast came straight into the cockpit and was amplified by my mouthpiece. The check pilot was excellent - he shouted slowly and clearly and I divined just about everything he wanted me to do.

Now I suffer from low-level background tinnitus. Despite my being a musician it never bothers me and I forget it from month to month. Midway during yesterday's sortie I could not so much hear as feel my head ringing, and I knew I was going to be in for a session once we got down. And so it was. My tinnitus had upgraded itself to 'in your face' and 'full on'. There was no telling how long it was going to last. Well I'm now typing this twenty four hours later and the noise hasd subsided to a sulky 'almost background' level once again, and I'm a worried man.

Now that I've finally reached the stage when I can fly what I want to fly am I going to be stopped by tinnitus? Or will a better headset cure the problem? I never get this problem with my bog-standard Sennheisers in spamcans.

[hatzflyer]

Tinnitus is range sensitive. The noise from a Tiger is a combination of wind noise and engine /prop noise and varies in frequency to say, a pa28 cabin noise.
You can get your GP to send you to a hearing clinic at your local hospital where they will check you out for a modern hearing aid. These are incredible things nowadays and are computer controlled. The test will identify your problem frequencies and the hearing aid can be set to combat them by anti-noise effectively the same as noise cancelling headphones.
My Partner recently went this route for tinnitus, and it doesn't cure the condition but it sure makes it bearable !

[peter272]

When I used to fly a Turb, I developed temporary tinnitis, as the exhaust was very close to the cockpit side and was one of the noisier ones.

I was advised to get a decent ANR headset, but funds didn't permit. What did help though was a decent helmet that made things a lot quieter and helped with the background noise.

[Mark1234]

Notwithstanding what others have posted I suspect it's mostly an equipment issue. You should be able to get the squelch to stop background noise coming through the mic, and the headset should fit.

A trick I employ when flying particularly noisy planes (mainly pitts) is to put good noise blocking earplugs in then put the headset over the top and turn up the volume on the intercom/radio. You still get the intercom, but it cuts the background down. Requires some negotiation if flying dual!

[It flies]

I have found that the noise level differs a lot depending on the type of open aeroplane. I think on most types wind noise will be the major factor.

I've flown a short flight as a passenger in a Tigre engined Bucker Jungmann without headset and it was absolutely deafening. On the next flight with a decent headset it was still pretty loud after a while. On the other hand I've flown a Fleet 7 wich has a very loud Kinner engine, but the noise level is never a problem really. The main difference is that the Jungmann has a much higher cruising speed, thus generating a lot more wind noise. In the Pitts S-2B noise wasn't much of a problem.

If possible, sitting a little lower in de cockpit might help too.

You will have to experiment with different headsets but it should be possible to find a combination that isn't a health hazard. Longer flights can't be good for your hearing though.

[kevmusic]

By coincidence I looked in the Tiger Club's house magazine today and found an article in the difficulties of intercom in the "demanding environment that is the Tiger cockpit". They recommend David Clarke 10/13.4s with a cloth or leather helmet from Transair. The headsets are about £200 from Sporty's, or £270 from Pooleys. Either way a big chunk from my flying funds! Anyone had experience with this setup?

Mark, I certainly will try earplugs - I use them when teaching drums.

[peter272]

By coincidence I looked in the Tiger Club's house magazine today and found an article in the difficulties of intercom in the "demanding environment that is the Tiger cockpit". They recommend David Clarke 10/13.4s with a cloth or leather helmet from Transair. The headsets are about £200 from Sporty's, or £270 from Pooleys. Either way a big chunk from my flying funds! Anyone had experience with this setup?

I forgot I did use earplugs as well.

I was not happy with the prices for either the leather or cloth helmet, but got mine from the States. It has cutouts for my DC headset and cost £50 - arrived in 4 days from California. Don't even think of buying them in the UK.....!!!

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Kev,

The Tiger Club were always fairly traditional and used RAF type cloth helmets and Oxy masks/mics in their Tiger Moths. They've become all 'modern' recently and now the aeroplanes are configured for 'modern' headsets. Noise attenuation is paramount, but not too much that you can't hear subtle changes in the engine note.

I use a DC headset in a leather helmet in both aircraft now. When flying the Turb, I have an ANR system attached and just hope the battery doesn't run out mid flight ;-) Years of flying open cockpit aeroplanes, sometimes with no earplugs or helmet, has certainly affected my hearing:{

So a good set of noise attenuating headsets in a cloth or leather helmet will be adequate.











PS The Tiger Club's radios have always been crap.....

[WanSum]

We use the Lynx system orginally designed for microlights in our fleet of Tigers and they work brilliantly.

They are self powered headsets in a leather flying helmet and the intercom and radio connect via a separate box. The comms is crystal clear.

Steve

[hatzflyer]

Ive had good results with Lynx as well but quite expensive time you've got all the bits and pieces that go with them.
I used Harry Mendelssohn's own make ( pilot clones ) in the Hatz with leather helmets.( Also from him) .The helmets seem to pull the headsets on better than just sitting on your head and deffo quieter.Much cheaper that DC's and still using them (years later..sans helmet) in the RV.
Ive always had excellent service from Harry over the years...wouldn't go anywhere else.When you phone for advice its always available if you are spending £5 or £500. Better than talking to some pimply scroat that doesn't know an intercom from an MP3 player!:ok:

[Barshifter]

Microavionics do an excellent ANR headset which will also fit into a leather helmet.

MicroAvionics - Intercoms, Headsets and Accessories for ULM Aviation (http://www.microavionics.co.uk/ULM%20Intercoms.html)

[OpenCirrus619]

Kev,

I would ask around the club and see if you can find someone who will let you "test drive" before you buy. It's also worth doing the test with whichever check pilot you are intending to fly most with (if you have a strong preference that is) - the Tiger's intercoms can be fine with some combinations of headsets and awful with others.

Also, although it's a big hit, it might be worth looking at a helmet. A number of the Turb Team wear them and it would make sense, if there is any chance that you will want one in the future, to get it now - thus saving the expense of the cloth/leather version. It won't look out of place (as long as you don't wear it in the Cub or Jodel :O).

OC619

[Lister Noble]

Didn't the original Tiger Moths have voice pipes?
One I used to fly in as a passenger had throat mikes,ear piece in cloff 'elmet and I couldn't hear a thing.
Lister:)

[kevmusic]

Gosport Tubes, Lister. How they coped with that arrangement, Lord knows! But they all seemed to............

[bodypilot]

My solution is an easy one and as far as I can tell the best. I have tried most of the ANR sets on the market and found them all to fall over with either wind on the mic or sunglasses breaking the ear seal.

Get a set of small earbud with a good seal - sony models all work well. The buy an adapter to change the large plug on the panel to the small female jack the headsets expect (3.5mm plug to 2.5mm socket)

Put your regular headset over your ears when you already have the bud headsets on. Don't connect the headset audio jack just use the buds to hear. Both the main headset and the buds provide great protection and the bud deliver clear sound at low volumes.

If your panel is mono then either a new stereo panel jack is needed with L and R both fed from the one line from the radio / intercom or do what I did and solder up a plug and jack that converts the size and mono to stero in one go.

I fly this setup in a very loud and windy open cockpit a *lot* and am very happy with no longer going deaf after each flight!

[kevmusic]

it might be worth looking at a helmet

OC619 do you mean a bone dome type of thing?

[OpenCirrus619]

OC619 do you mean a bone dome type of thing?

Yup.

OC619

[Mark1234]

Get a set of small earbud with a good seal - sony models all work well. The buy an adapter to change the large plug on the panel to the small female jack the headsets expect (3.5mm plug to 2.5mm socket)

That's an interesting thought.. I use some etymotic (mid-range audiophile type inner ear monitors) that claim 41db noise isolation; certainly work on the tube, never thought of trying them in the plane!

[Mike744]

I would second that. The Etymotic ER-4S has noise isolation up to 41dB, a clear response accuracy and can reach more than sufficient sound levels (122 dB SPL!).

I use a pair of Etymotic ER-4 in very noisy situations and they work brilliantly but I've not tried them in an open cockpit situation.

Mike

[kevmusic]

Right, you're losing me, guys! I don't do MP3s or whatever, so I'm not au fait with earpece types: I'm resigned to having to shell out for a good clarity/ear protection combination but I have to know what I'm doing. Do these Etymotic thingies work inside protective headphones, or are they stand-alone, as it were? And how compatible would they be with the Tiger's radios?

Keep the ideas coming! - we may be on the way to a radical solution..........:ok:

[India Four Two]

km,

The 80 knot blast came straight into the cockpit and was amplified by my mouthpiece

This may not be the case for your flight, but I had a similar problem in a Stearman earlier this year, where the noise was coming from the instructor's mike. He had a "hot mike" but mine was a "push-to-talk intercom". Of course, when I pushed the button, the noise was even louder!

[18greens]

Kev, reading your post took me back 6 years to the 10 hours I spent in the tiger moth at the tiger club. I couldn't believe the ringing in my ears after 20 minutes.

I was advised to go to headset service and get an old fashioned leather flying hat. Properly fitting earcups solved the issue immediately - no more tinnitus. Cost was about 220gbp. Money well spent. (Still could not believe how much spit came out of the mouth piece after flying) .

In my day you had to get a dynamic microphone, but chuffer seems to be saying elecret is the thing now. Enjoy the mighty tiger.

Its interesting to reflect they used these headsets until the early meteor days.

[Mark1234]

kev, best thing is to just google the etymotics. They are simply 'ipod' type headphones of the flavour you stuff in your ear. What's 'special' is that they're designed to block out outside noise, and do so very well.

They would however be standalone - you'd put hour regular headset over the top, and plug the ipod headphones and the mic into the aeroplane, leaving the headset 'speaker' part unplugged. Not sure how I'd feel about the extra cabling etc. Of course this won't help at all if the mic is 'open' and the noise is coming through the mic!

I've not flown a tiger to judge, but I suspect the leather helmet or proper bone dome, coupled with decent headset/earcups (I use DC 10.14s), and the earplugs trick might be the most appropriate way forward.

[Human Factor]

I have a Gentex HGU-55 bonedome (for Yak flying) with a set of THESE (http://www.cep-usa.com/) soldered in parallel with the earpieces. You put the ear pieces in, the bonedome on, then plug the earpieces into the socket on the side of the helmet. The existing speakers still work if you don't want to use the earpieces (handy with a rear passenger if they don't have the same system and need the radio turned up). It allows me to fly with the radio volume turned down to minimum and makes a huge difference.

[bodypilot]

I deal with the one extra cable by.... ignoring it! The *massive* difference that the earbuds make is worth it.

I use some of the smaller buds so that I can wear the regular headset or helmet over the top. Makes for more passive attenuation and always comes with a mic!

This is also a cheap solution - although I am not 100% these are exactly the same they are close to what helps me in my open (and very loud) cockpit

Sony MDR EX35LP/VB - headphones - In-ear ear-bud, Binaural - Blue, violet (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=safari&q=sony+earbuds&oe=UTF-8&cid=5480793641043862796&sa=title#p)

[Tmbstory]

I just wonder how we managed to fly the Tiger Moths with only Gosport Tubes for communcation between the crew. A few hand signals as well.

A great Aeroplane and enjoyed my time in them.

Tmb

[kevmusic]

I just wonder how we managed to fly the Tiger Moths with only Gosport Tubes for communcation between the crew.
Yup. Mentioned that earlier. I wonder if some of the problem is that the crew now both have mics, amplifying everything that goes into them.

[kevmusic]

I have thought up a very low-tec solution. This was to use my foam drum teaching earplugs under my bog-standard spamcan Sennheisers, inserted into a new leather helmet from Pooleys. Cool 1930s aviator? No way! I look like an extra from Dr Who and the Cybermen.

The theory was that if I can teach, converse with and hear a student drummer battering away to backing tracks whilst wearing said earplugs, I should be able to hear the R/T and radio over the tight passive attenuation of plugs and headphones, if they were turned up high enough. The earplugs and protective seal should filter out the wind noise. The problem would be in the mic picking up and amplifying the ambient noise. It has a muffler, but that's only designed for breath-noise.

Did it work? Beautifully. Exactly as hoped! The R/T came through loud and clear (relatively) and I could hear the radio - though in the air the radio developed a fault, so I couldn't do a full test on my 'system'. And after we landed there was no extra tinnitus. The only problem was, as foreseen, the noise through the mic; but it only showed up when I turned my head and peered out into the slipstream. Not very good for lookout! :uhoh:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'd recommend looking at either Lynx or Communica gear. Both are designed specifically for microlights: which are both open cockpit and hellishly noisy at times.

I've used both, and whilst I own Communica (having got a good second hand deal a few years back), would for preference go for Lynx (http://www.lynx-avionics.com/English_Site/E_Site_Index/e_frame_set.html) which I think is a bit more robust. The headsets work well in an open cockpit, and both companies do helmets to go with their headsets.

Most GA equipment is designed for quieter, draft-free cockpits, and tends not to be as good for an open cockpit aeroplane as headsets and helmets designed specifically for microlights.

If buying a helmet, make sure you have a visor latch, otherwise in a lot of cockpits the visors can occasionally decide to ride up at irritating moments.

If you want to browse, then your best bet is to go to Popham on the May bank holiday weekend when the big microlight fly-in is on.

G

[HappyJack260]

Have a look at a Campbell Aero Classics helmet. Looks like the traditional leather helmet, except it has a kevlar/carbon fibre shell. Very good noise reduction, and you can get it with a leather face mask for open cockpits or the real warbird look. I wear mine in the Pitts with canopy and without, and have also used it in a Tiger Moth. Highly recommended.

[Subhuman]

I will also vouch for the self-powered Lynx Headsets. We use them in a fleet of Stampe's and they are fantastic. no real fatigue after 6 hours flying (over the course of the day). Only niggle is having to charge them up every night.

Lynx Avionics English Site (http://www.lynx-avionics.com/English_Site/E_Site_Index/e_frame_set.html)

We have 6 pairs and haven't had a single problem with any of them. You will need a helmet mind, as the fit isn't solid enough to take a slow roll or any negative G.

[rusty sparrow]

Any problems with the low impedence of standard audio headsets working with standard aircraft transceivers?

[volvodriver]

Hi

I'm currently flying in an open cockpit and sharing a sydicate lynx system with others - bit messy from time to time!

Can any of you tell me any downsides to connecting a standard NATO plug on a Mk10b helmet into this system through the Lynx marketed adaptor?

i.e. Will it work?

Cheers

VD

[angels one five]

Like HJ260 I have a Campbell Aero Classics helmet which I wear when I fly my Turbulent " topless ".
I find it is very good for reducing the engine noise and it is warm ( even in the NZ winter ) and comfortable too.
Here is a link :

Campbell Aero Classics NZ Ltd (http://www.campbellaeroclassics.com/index.html)