Australian ATC

[dreamer84]

Hi everyone,

Just seeking advice/comments from guys in Aus about a career in ATC. I've not long finished a CPL but for a number of reasons have decided that ATC may be the career for me to pursue.

I recently applied for the 2011 intake and though I'm certainly not counting any chickens yet I'd just like to get a feel for what I might be in for one day.

Anyone in the know please feel free to comment with any positive and/or negative opinions about your job. One question I would have is how realistic is it coming from an ENR course to be posted to a capital city of your choice as a Terminal Controller? (I'm well aware this would take a number of years in BNE or MEL in ENR and it's certainly not a huge factor in me deciding to pursue this career.)

Anyhow, I've never really talked to anyone about this so would appreciate any advice/suggestions/feedback.

Thanks in advance.

[gemmy]

Hey there,

I suggest you take a look at the thread:

Airservices Australia Psychometric Testing (http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/311440-airservices-australia-psychometric-testing.html)

A couple of guys on my course with their CPL.. Good Luck !

[aluminium persuader]

One question I would have is how realistic is it coming from an ENR course to be posted to a capital city of your choice as a Terminal Controller?
You're right; it would take a lot of years. There are an awful lot of guys ahead of you in the queue, and it's even been a union issue with the GR courses, to the point where GR guys who had only ever done terminal control were streamed into en-route. Of course, the official line is that anyone can apply & they'll take the best qualified. That said, if you don't mind going to a smaller airfield eg Essendon, Bankstown, Archers etc you may stand a better chance.

As for pros & cons, I would make very sure I went into it with my eyes wide open if I were you. Make lots of visits, talk to lots of controllers - outside the workplace & over a beer if poss.

Good luck!
ap

[Plazbot]

For discusion re: Bond.

I hear it is going to be $250000 over 5 years up from the $70000 of today.

I would want some very specific advice on how this pertains as a liability over the 5 years for finance etc.

[Cookie7]

if you don't mind going to a smaller airfield eg Essendon, Bankstown, Archers etc you may stand a better chance


Isn't the current number one requirement to have more trained and rated enroute controllers? Also, I thought AsA sent trainees wherever required, rather than by choice of tower?



For discusion re: Bond.
I hear it is going to be $250000 over 5 years up from the $70000 of today.


Didn't gemmy and a few other new college attendees state the current answer to this?

We started course this week & the bond is still $70k. There was rumour a few months ago that it was $250k.. but it's still $70K at this stage.

[On the beach]

Dreamer84,

This is the place for me:

Hamilton Island Control Tower - Airservices Australia (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aboutus/facilities/towers/hamiltonislandtower.asp)

Might be a long queue though.

On the beach :ok:

[enemyMiG]

Let's clear this issue up.

Some trainees as part of their contract were advised that the bond was $250,000 over 5 years. Civilair confirmed with the Planning Manager in Canberra that this was incorrect. No change has been made to the bond, it is still $70,000 over 5 years.
Those trainees who received the $250,000 bond are currently being provided with a new Training Bond to rectify the situation.
Not sure what happened, but it's getting fixed.

This advice has been posted on the notice board in the trainee's rec area.

Hope this helps

[ozineurope]

D84
If ATC is what you want go for it. I had 30 years in Australian ATC and had a great time. Started in towers and ended up as Unit Supervisor in Perth. The job is great, world's best video game and you get paid to play it. Just dont let the little greenish white things hit any others and you'll be fine.

The down side is the current management regime which is why I am now in Frankfurt. However starting low on the food chain and keeping your head down may ensure that you last at least 5 years before becoming bitter and twisted!!

The friends you make and the camaraderie you experience are second to none.

If you want a visit to the Perth TCU give the Airservices number a call and they'll put you through to the office. Tell them you are a budding recruit and all things being good (like no military exercises or Red Bull airspace) a visit will be arranged. PM me and I can give you some names that were there a year ago!

Most of all, if you want it go for it.

[aluminium persuader]

Cookie, you're spot on. I meant that if you were happy with a smaller place you'd be more likely to get there sooner that if you aimed for the international. Certainly not without a few yrs in en-route.

D84 - re the bond; as Plazbot says, (and whether it's $250k or $70k it's a lot of money, particularly if you're still wearing the cost of a CPL), be very careful that you know exactly where you stand in all cases -even the dreaded worst-case scenario.

[melbATC]

re the bond; as Plazbot says, (and whether it's $250k or $70k it's a lot of money, particularly if you're still wearing the cost of a CPL), be very careful that you know exactly where you stand in all cases -even the dreaded worst-case scenario

I agree $70K or $250k is a lot of money, you just need to remember the training bond does not apply until after you gain a rating, so you will have somewhere between 12 - 18 months to be sure it is the job you want to do for at least the next 5 years.

You also need to be aware the 5 years only start's when you gain your rating so the 12 - 18 month's of training doesn't count towards the bond.

[dreamer84]

Thanks everyone for the advice so far, keep it coming! Can someone please explain the details of the bond, either 70 or 250K. Is this an amount payable only if you resign within the 5 yrs, or is it a training loan that all employees pay back over time? This is a bit of a concern at this stage as I am paying back a CPL as someone mentioned! If successful I wouldn't imagine resigning within 5 years so I'm hoping its the case that I won't have to repay any of the training costs.

Can anyone give any idea on rosters/realistic remuneration figures etc? Excuse my ignorance, just hoping to gain a bit of an insight into a career I know little about.

Thanks again.

[twisties]

Airservices Australia makes a lot of this information available on their website. This should answer many of your questions refer to

Airservices Australia - Careers - Air Traffic Controller (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/careers/atc/default.asp)

This will give you an idea of pay and conditions

Regards

[le Pingouin]

Thanks everyone for the advice so far, keep it coming! Can someone please explain the details of the bond, either 70 or 250K. Is this an amount payable only if you resign within the 5 yrs, or is it a training loan that all employees pay back over time?It's not a loan - no repayments along the way & only comes into play if you resign. The amount of the bond decreases with time too.

Can anyone give any idea on rosters/realistic remuneration figures etc? Excuse my ignorance, just hoping to gain a bit of an insight into a career I know little about.AUD 37,509 - 169,626 (college trainee to top level)

"We are proud to offer a training salary of $37,885 for the first year, and then increase this to $56,827 as you complete the on the job training component for 6 months. Once fully licensed, the starting salary of an Air Traffic Controller begins at $77,348 + superannuation!"

Airservices Australia - Job details (http://careers.airservicesaustralia.com/jobDetails.asp?sJobIDs=491494&lCategoryID=&lWorkTypeID=&lLocationID=&stp=AW&sLanguage=en)

Sorry, can't recall how many increments (12?) it takes to reach the top these days. Plus there's plenty of additional duty if you feel so inclined.

Rosters are very dependent on where you work - typically 4 on 2 off with variations (you acquit 76(?) hours per fortnight). At the start you're less likely to work "doggos" (night shifts) as you won't have enough ratings.

I usually work:
15-23, 12-20, 06-13, 23-06, off, off

with some:
07-15, 06-13, 23-06, 23-06, off, off mixed in.

As you can see family life & fitting in with Mon-Fri 9-5 types can be a bit of a problem. Makes regular commitments like playing a team sport or meetings on the first Thursday at 7pm hard. Swapping shifts is accommodated within shift rules but there's no guarantee in getting particular days off. It's a lot harder now than it was.

My take is it's a fabulous job, working with an interesting bunch of people. Pity about the management bull****. That can be ignored to an extent but it gets rather hard if you actually care about what you do.

[dreamer84]

Thanks a lot, very helpful.

[Plazbot]

Those trainees who received the $250,000 bond are currently being provided with a new Training Bond to rectify the situation.

Hang on, are you saying that there are some people who have signed up for a $250K bond, Civil Air questioned it and now Airservices are redoing their bond contracts? For those people's sake I hope to be proven wrong but I would not be holding my breath on that ever occuring. Airservices are the masters of deceit when it comes to work conditions. Are these people members of Civl Air?

[enemyMiG]

There is a point of contact at the Academy to advise those trainees who have not yet received their new bond contracts.
The ball is rolling.
This has not affected anyone in our bunch, nor it seems in gemmy's, and our groups collectively make up around two thirds of trainees at the Academy at the moment (not including the conversion courses).
I've worked some **** jobs in my time, and have seen life from many perspectives, not all of them desirable.
The fact that a bond is involved did not affect my decision to apply in the slightest. This job is something I really want to do, and as melbATC pointed out, there's still plenty of time to confirm my decision.

[dreamer84]

Thanks for clearing up the bond issue guys. Was a bit worried for a second that it was something similar to a student loan. Another quick question....After a trainee completes the 12mth's in MEL is it likely that you would have a choice between MEL or BNE CEN? I know that it probably depends entirely on demand in both locations but more than anything I'm trying to get some answers for my wife who is reading this thread!

I'm not adverse to pressure in a job but can anyone tell it from their experience about the stress of air traffic control. Its well known (or at least well reported!) that ATC is one of the most stressful occupations in the world. From your experience (and I know it might be completely different to the next controller) is this stress purely on the job stress? Is it manageable and are you able to leave it at work. Probably a dopey question but just seeking insight and experiences from those who live it.

Thanks again, I'm sure I'll think of a few more dumb questions still..

[melbATC]

Thanks for clearing up the bond issue guys. Was a bit worried for a second that it was something similar to a student loan. Another quick question....After a trainee completes the 12mth's in MEL is it likely that you would have a choice between MEL or BNE CEN? I know that it probably depends entirely on demand in both locations but more than anything I'm trying to get some answers for my wife who is reading this thread!

I'm not adverse to pressure in a job but can anyone tell it from their experience about the stress of air traffic control. Its well known (or at least well reported!) that ATC is one of the most stressful occupations in the world. From your experience (and I know it might be completely different to the next controller) is this stress purely on the job stress? Is it manageable and are you able to leave it at work. Probably a dopey question but just seeking insight and experiences from those who live it.

Thanks again, I'm sure I'll think of a few more dumb questions still..

When you receive an offer it will specify which centre you will be posted to. They will take your preference into account, however as you said demand in the centre's is the main factor in their decision.

The amount of stress in Air Traffic Control is greatly exaggerated, well at least for Australian ATCO's. Don't get me wrong, the job has it's moment's but in general I don't think most controllers are all that stressed at work.

The effect of rotating rosters on family and social life can cause some issues for some controller's, however it depends on the individual person.

As far as bringing stress home, one great thing about being an ATCO is the moment the next controller plug's in you don't need to think about the job until you are next due to plug in.

[ferris]

IMHO, the job is stressful. It just depends on what type of person you are, and how you deal with it. Almost always, the people who actually check out at the end of training have learned to deal with it/deal with it naturally. If you are the type of person who thinks deeply about decisions, and mulls them over (knowing the consequences/implications of errors), then you are unlikely to check out. If you make decisions easily (checking yourself/your work is different to "second guessing"), then you don't waste valuable time. It's about dealing with pressure. If you don't like being pressured to make decisions, you wont like the job.
In the oz environment, most would agree, once you check out the stress will come from the employer. How you deal with that will determine how long you work for them/how much you enjoy your career.
Anecdotally, you don't hear of many controllers living to old ages. In fact, the opposite. Whether that is stress, shift work, or some other factor- who knows. Can't be ignored though. Controllers themselves are often dismissive of the inherent stress, but that is because they are the type of people who are dealing with it well. I do know that most people I know couldn't do the job.
The big plus about the "stress", is that, as Melbatc says, once you unplug, that it's. You can go home without it following you. In that regard, it's not the same stress that Police, etc experience. It's a profession that you can switch off. Usually the candidates selected are mature enough to realise it, if the job isnt for them.

By the end of the college experience, you will be in a position to better understand what I am talking about, and whether it's for you.

[Mike Barry]

The most stressful time in an ATCs career is training, pass that and its pretty much plain sailing.
As Ferris said, it does have its moments, especially in the Middle East, but most of the stress is down to shift work and partners wanting their cake and eating it too.

[gemmy]

Dreamer84,

Everyone on my course (12) were given their first preference of BNE or MLB for Enroute.... saying that, they still have the the final say & could change us at any point if manning needs required us badly in another Centre.

The 4 tower guys on our course will not find out which tower they are going to until further down the track.

Yes, Tower & Enroute on the same course - for the 8 weeks of Theory, and than we split up to our respective Sims.

We were told today that course looks as though it'll now go for approx 54 weeks as opposed to 43 weeks !! The joys of having to be `flexible'. :-).

As for the training bond... it hasn't even really crossed our minds on our course... we all chose to be here because we want to do the job for many years.. not for less than 5yrs ! Look at it as Job Security in a way.

It decreases by 20% per year too just FYI.

[le Pingouin]

As for the training bond... it hasn't even really crossed our minds on our course... we all chose to be here because we want to do the job for many years.. not for less than 5yrs ! Look at it as Job Security in a way. As an experienced controller the bond worries me from the perspective that do I want to be working with someone who feels pressured to stay when they really don't want to be there? I've seen people leave for all manner of reasons other than getting a job OS as a controller. Admittedly the number is small but it happens.

[wolf_wolf]

A lot can happen in five years. No one I know ever applied for this job with the intention of possibly leaving within the bonded period. Only until they got rated, and then actually endured the endless machinations of an unnecessarily annoying and unsupportive management, did a desire to look elsewhere arise. As soon as this desire was then met with opportunity, they naturally left, bond paid out in full (in some cases up to $40k AUD). Some moved to equal paying jobs elsewhere. Money was not necessarily the only issue.

I would seriously think twice about signing a $250k bond, or any bond. Airservices have all the legal aces up their sleeves, and if for whatever reason things do not go your way in the future, to have to mortgage your house (or your parents' house) to enact a legal release of contract is a completely disproportionate sacrifice to what you "might" earn in future income. But, as has been previously mentioned, I believe the union may have already sorted this issue...

However, yes, the job is pretty cool most days, so fill your boots! :)

[general disaray]

As an experienced controller the bond worries me from the perspective that do I want to be working with someone who feels pressured to stay when they really don't want to be there?

I stayed longer than I would have because of the training bond. I was told to speak to management and they might let it slide but there was a lot riding on that might.

That said, when I went to work I was 100% focussed on the job. I gave it all that I could, I would never have short changed the flying public because of my disintrest in being there.

[1Charlie]

I don't know if I would say the Job is stressfull. Certainly not the same stress as say a school teacher. I think what people mean is the workload at times can be very high, reaching your mental capacity. One of the biggest things you will learn in your training is how to limit your workload to your capacity. (how to say no). Having your CPL and probably MEIR I'm sure you get the idea.

The 4 on 2 off shift work I find to be excellent. Infact when I have to go back to a 9 to 5 five day week for a course I feel exhausted! It gives you an extra 16 days a year off than the average person, and while I can't speak for the Aussies, here you would never work a 40 hour week. Unless you were doing overtime at double pay.

In NZ you aren't bonded, but you're only paid a scholarship while OJT so you need to be able get the student allowance.

Generally abinitio controllers are posted to towers here but the odd one or two from an intake may go straigt to the Center. A new Tower controller earns about $83K NZD including sallary, RSSC allowance for hours worked outside a normal day, and 11% super.

I understand Airways and AsA are trying to make it easier for controllers to move from NZ to Aus and the other way, infact I belive AsA are now using the same selection processes.

Good luck with the training. This is where you will work the hardest in your career