Defining safe airspeed tolerance "calls" by support pilot.

[Centaurus]

Without over-doing it to the irritation of the other pilot, there are airspeed tolerances to be called by the PNF, if outside company limits. These limits before the support call is made, often vary - and this can cause standardisation problems when pilots change jobs to another operator. Of course, that is his problem and he has to stick with the new procedures

Advice on the subject in the Boeing 737 Flight Crew Training Manual is a case in point. There is not much help there - except one line which recommends the pilot monitoring calls out significant deviations from command speed. But it does not define significant deviations, leaving that apparently to individual operators. Then, every man is a critic.

There needs to be certain published airspeed tolerances before a call is made during normal flight and perhaps different airspeed tolerances once the aircraft is in the final landing configuration. For example, an "outside tolerance" call would be made by the support pilot on final approach if the speed was more than ten knots above the selected approach speed or less than VREF. After all, VREF is a safe speed and it can be quite unproductive (irritates the other pilot) if unnecessary "support" calls are being made providing conditions are normal.

Comments/suggestions invited. Thanks.

[CAT1 REVERSION]

Our SOP is if a deviation irritates the other guy he may well have CRM issues - in which case ask him on the ground "what's the problem".:mad:

I suppose there is more than one way to skin a cat, if your calling speed at Vref with a increasing speed trend arrow you have to ask yourself was it a good call. If in doubt - call it!!! then talk about it later. No biggy!!!!

As for calls, I think a call of "Speed" would suffice. At hearing it, your natural reaction is to check your speed anyway, so any call regarding speed is going to attract your scan towards the ASI, why complicate things at a very busy segment with trying to be smart with + or - speed trends. Could easily be misinterpretated as a wrong call ie "outside tolerance" the PF increases thrust instead of reducing excacerbating the problem!!!

Keep it simple, use SOP's and good airmanship (ie SCAN) and everything will be just fine....honest gov:ok:

[Centaurus]

Our SOP is if a deviation from the published tolerences is observed call "Speed".

Understood and agree. However, I would be interested to know the published tolerances on your aircraft type. Same for other replies that may be forthcoming.

[hetfield]

I would be interested to know the published tolerances on your aircraft type

On all types our SOP calls are at +10/-5 (VM and Vref/Vapp).

[AerocatS2A]

Our calls are only made when the PF is outside tolerances and is not correcting. So if you see him get a bit slow but he is obviously taking corrective action then you say nothing and let him get on with it.

[porch monkey]

Same, and also +10/-5 from vref.

[411A]

L1011.
+15 and -5 from Vref.

If correcting, nothing said.
I am a very big believer in the silent FD concept....as much as possible.

However, it should be noted that under some adverse conditions when using autothrust during approach, one will oftentimes see +20 (or more) at 500 agl.
Not normally a problem as the L1011 autothrust is very accurate.
Some new First Officers can be surprised with this, however...when they have seen the 'ole Lockheed three-holer in operation for awhile, it makes a believer out of them.

[capt. solipsist]

Vref to Vref+20

[Mach E Avelli]

Aerocat has it in one. If the other guy is obviously on it, no need for a call at all. On the other hand, if the speed is trending the wrong way and the PF is doing nothing about it, the 'speed' call is warranted. Ditto any other divergences - it's the timely corrective action you should be looking for.
Once while doing a base check in really gusty conditions I had the anal checkie next to me yelling 'speed' about every 10 seconds as the ASI was bouncing around between Vref and about Vref+20 - never mind that the average of all this was a nice safe Vref+10. Rather than blow the check by telling him to shut his cakehole, I said to him: 'your control' then about 10 seconds later at the first 10 knot divergence yelled 'speed'.
I only had to do it twice more for him to hand it back to me and complete the rest of the detail in total silence.
Gratuitous calls are NOT good CRM; in fact the very reverse.

[A37575]

Same, and also +10/-5 from vref.

I would have thought that delaying a warning call until the PF is five knots below VREF is leaving things a bit late. It only takes a couple more seconds of speed decay below the already minus five knots to be in real trouble. While VREF is a safe speed depending on local conditions, five knots below VREF in a 737 just prior to the flare will invariably result in an uncomfortably firm touch down unless you have it under control with more thrust than usual.

The minus five knots below a selected approach speed is wearable but to be minus five knots below VREF before a wake up call is made by the PNF is stretching the friendship a little too much in my view.

[Md-driver]

+10/-5 from agreed upon speed ( agreed upon speed being Vref + additives) and only if no cerrective action is taken by PF.

[porch monkey]

For the anal. VREF in the 737 is VREF + 5 Minimum. Maybe more. Yes , If you like to call it that then VREF + Additives. So a call would be made at VREF+ additives-5. That make it ok now?

[Bruce Waddington]

Centaurus,

Our SOP on the the Lear 45 is to call;

When within 5 knots of any 'max speed' at any time in the flight propfile.

In the landing configuration when more than +10/-5 from the 'target speed'.

When more than +10/-5 from any required airspeed, such as V2 after a power loss on take-off or ATC assigned speed.

best regards,

Bruce Waddington

[A37575]

For the anal. VREF in the 737 is VREF + 5 Minimum

Not so. VREF in the B737 is just what it says and that is VREF and in fact the FCTM recommends to bleed off that five knot additive approaching touch down.

[porch monkey]

My use of the word "Same" in the post, referring to the earlier post conveyed my intent to most. Obviously not you, sadly.

[fireflybob]

If PNF calls Speed and I am aware I say "Roger", if not I say "Thankyou!"