Advantages Of N Registered Aircraft Overseas?

[Pitte86]

Hey guys,
I am thinking of purchasing an SR22 turbo. Since I am an American citizen living overseas, I was wondering whether it would be convenient for me to register the aircraft within the USA under the name of a corporation or a trust created solely for this purpose.
P.S I also saw that in order to fly IFR in Europe you need a dme, is it possible that they cost around 10K???
Thank You

[rokami93]

Pitte86,

there are many advantages, but "overseas" is not specific enough to give you detailed information. In Afghanistan, it might not be cool to fly an N-registered airplane and advantages are few. In Thailand you'd need a special permit for each and every single flight, so it is just not very practical.

If you fly an N-registered aircraft, it has to comply with the FAA-airworthiness previsions, not the ones of the country you fly in, France for example. Also, in Europe no N-registered aircraft would need a DME to fly legally.

You might want to use the search function of the forum, it is a very common topic.

Good luck!

[AdamFrisch]

No need for a trust if you're an American. That would just be unnecessary paperwork, money and potentially dodgy ownership structure.

[flyingfemme]

Hi Pitte86. If you have a US passport and the right to legally register an aircraft with the FAA you do not need a trust company. That is a mechanism for us "furriners" to register with the FAA...........Cash saved right there.

The things you do need to consider are dependant upon where you are resident and will be keeping your aircraft. Also, for how long.

In Europe, for example, you may keep your aircraft and fly it without any particular problems. Lots of us do that. You will, however, have to import it if you are staying for longer than a "holiday" (vacation). That involves paying VAT in the country of import. If you are not importing as a VAT-registered business you will not be able to reclaim the tax (17.5% in England and more in other EU states). Big chunk of cash. You will not be able to reclaim when you eventually repatriate (in case you were thinking about it).

If you were to move to Europe, from the US, bringing your (already owned) aircraft with you - there are allowances available for that........I think you must have owned it for a set period of time before you move here.

Useful note - The Channel Islands are not part of Europe and no VAT is payable if you live there.

DME and ADF are still required over here!

[mm_flynn]

Also, in Europe no N-registered aircraft would need a DME to fly legally.!

not true. A country can impose minimum equipment requirements (along with operating requirements on all aircraft that choose to use their airspace)

DME is acommon one, along with mode S and Elt. The UK approach ban is applicable to G reg everywhere and all aircraft in UK airspace

[rokami93]

A country can impose minimum equipment requirements (along with operating requirements on all aircraft that choose to use their airspace)

You are right. Practically you can ignore most of that stuff.

DME is acommon one, along with mode S and Elt. The UK approach ban is applicable to G reg everywhere and all aircraft in UK airspace

Well, the UK is a very special place and no matter what rule people have found useful the rest of the world, in the UK it will be different.

I have never had a problem filing IFR in continental Europe and my plane is not DME-equipped.

[S-Works]

I have never had a problem filing IFR in continental Europe and my plane is not DME-equipped.

Flagrantly flouting the law of a multitude of countries does not make you clever.

You may have been getting away with filing IFR without the correct equipment but that does not make it legal. Filing a flight plan is just you telling the system that you are legal for the flight. The system does not check.

I suggest you read the ANO of each of the countries you have been passing through and work out which ones you were illegal in. You might find the results very eye opening.

I look forward to you regaling is with your experience of a ramp check when you eventually get caught.

[Charley]

Agreed. Bose has hit the nail on the head.

DME is mandatory for IFR flight in a multitude of European countries. That some may 'get away with it' is not a basis for claiming that the requirement does not apply.

Not least when one looks at an approach plate; if it has ILS/DME RWY xx at the top, and there's no alternative instructions on the plate for aircraft not equipped with (or not receiving) DME, then it is required for that approach procedure.

[mm_flynn]

Practically you can ignore most of that stuff.
In an EASA reg aircraft 'practically' you can ignore almost all of the laws as you are exceptionally unlikely to be ramp checked. It is only if you have an accident that the lack of proper equipment, valid maintenance release, current licences, medical, pre-flight planing, etc. become relevant.

I suspect you are filing S.../S (or C) on your flight plan, rather than clearly specifying you don't have DME. I have always had a view complying with the law is generally a good thing (and have a KNS80 brick as my DME so as to comply).

[rokami93]

I look forward to you regaling is with your experience of a ramp check when you eventually get caught.

Not very probable that this will happen which is another advantage of N-registered aircraft but I'll keep you updated *ROFL*

I have always had a view complying with the law is generally a good thing (and have a KNS80 brick as my DME so as to comply).

That strategy is generally a good one, I even share it but IMHO it comes second.

I would say a primary goal is to fly safely and to avoid accidents and with a G1000equipped aircraft I am a few steps ahead of a DME when it comes to situational awareness.

Nevertheless, in Europe you can easily cross 7 countries in one leg and if you want to make sure to be 100% legal in each one of them, you will spend more time reading than flying.

[Fuji Abound]

I have to say that for those of us flying a G1000 or Avidyne with dual certified GPS it does seem extraordinary that the various regulatory authorities are so far behind the technology curve. I appreciate that with some of the ancient kit that you have to make do with on your ferry flights Bose have a functioning DME is a good thing but if the regulator is able to distinguish between the training requirements for glass you would have thought they could equally distinguish between the avionics carriage requirments.

Still the law is the law and rightly we should ensure we stay the right side of it.

[IO540]

in Europe you can easily cross 7 countries in one leg and if you want to make sure to be 100% legal in each one of them, you will spend more time reading than flying.

That is very true...

I did some research on this a few years ago (via the EAD Eurocontrol national AIP repository) and it quickly became obvious that it would be no more tedious to compile a matrix of roaming data charges (one of the best examples of deliberate non-transparency) of European GSM networks.

I found some gems e.g. Switzerland allowed an IFR GPS to replace an ADF (for IFR enroute) but not for flying an NDB approach. No idea if this is still true.

However some things are obviously illegal everywhere e.g. flying in BRNAV airspace on an IFR flight plan, with a handheld GPS, in some old wreck which might well attract attention. Not by the somewhat aviation-dumb policeman who traditionally does document-seeking ramp checks in France but by a local CAA official.

That said, I have never heard of anybody getting done on illegal equipment (lack of) carriage, in Europe. Maybe it has happened but nobody spoke of it... There was a rumour circulating that some Cirrus (no ADF/DME) pilot got done by the UK CAA, but this was verified and was false. Yet thus equipped Cirruses should be an obvious and easy target because most were/are illegal every time they land on a Eurocontrol flight plan. Especially as many are N-reg and thus vulnerable to an attack on VAT documents anywhere in the EU.

Re maintenance, being N-reg does not save much on normal maintenance. It does offer more flexibility because there are many freelance A&P/IA engineers in Europe. With say G-reg, you more or less have to use a company for most stuff, and most companies do a crap job, anytime a monkey is assigned to doing your plane, which is quite often. Being N-reg enables one to use good trusted people because you can pick and choose them yourself.

Being N-reg can save lots of money on modifications - but again only if you avoid companies who mis-interpret the FAA Major Mod / Minor Mod regs.

In the private owner-pilot context, going N-reg today (as a transfer from G-reg) is probably not worth doing unless one has the FAA IR, or something like that.

I've been N-reg for 5 years and love it. Spent a day today, with an A&P, doing a really vital maintenance job which for some reason was never done right for years, by companies.

[er340790]

N-reg a/c are quite common with flight training schools in Europe - the one I used in NL for my FAA PPL had two N-reg PA-28s. I believe their ultimate owner was Aircraft Guaranty Corp out of Houston, TX. A reputable outfit by all accounts.

[IO540]

N-reg a/c are quite common with flight training schools in Europe - the one I used in NL for my FAA PPL had two N-reg PA-28s. I believe their ultimate owner was Aircraft Guaranty Corp out of Houston, TX. A reputable outfit by all accounts.

N-reg used for FAA training used to be the case here in the UK too, before about 2005. There is no reason why, with the Govt permission, it should not be possible.

However, the FAA accepts all ICAO training no matter where done and no matter what aircraft reg it was done in, so this is not really an issue.

What has regularly been an issue was the availability of FAA pilot examiners (usually DPEs) and what aircraft reg they were willing to do checkrides in. Nowadays most people just go to the USA where everything is very simple.

[rokami93]

Do I need a trust in the US as a German citizen? Who can help with that?Yes. The AOPA recommends https://www.bankofutah.com/corporate-trust/index.html. So do I.

What's approximate cost of the whole exercise?
1500 USD for registration, 1500 USD annualy.

Do I really really need a DME for IFR flying in Germany?Not in an N-registered aircraft which is IFR-certified.

I will need a mode-S transponder I guess, any recommendations apart from the Garmin 330?Yes, a traffic and weather radar and a stormscope and a GFC700. Get some anti-icing and maybe a turbine, if there is an STC for the Archer. :}:}

Just kidding. This really depends on your flying, your intentions and the kind of weather you expect on your travels. Also, it depends on your own expertise, experience and -of course- preferences.

[Chilli Monster]

Do I need a trust in the US as a German citizen? Who can help with that?

What's approximate cost of the whole exercise?

Who can do it/can be trusted to do it without ripping me off?

The previous posters USD1500 set up / 1500 annually is ripping the backside out of it. Southern Aircraft Consultancy (http://www.southernaircraft.co.uk) are considerably cheaper and probably cover 80% of the 'N' reg aircraft in Europe. Euro 600 + VAT per year with no set up fee.

Do I really really need a DME for IFR flying in Germany?

Again - ignore the previous poster. Doesn't matter what your aircrafts "certification" is - if the German rules call for a DME, then you need a DME. Just because you have an 'N' on the side doesn't mean you won't get ramp checked

I will need a mode-S transponder I guess, any recommendations apart from the Garmin 330?

Bendix King KT73

[AEST]

Do I really really need a DME for IFR flying in Germany? Instead of the exceeding concern of the legality, think of the safety aspect of it.

Would you want to fly an IFR approach without the DME?

Wrt N-reg:

If you want to fly IFR it's the way to go.

[AEST]

Would you want to fly an IFR approach without the DME?
We do it all the time as the GPS is an acceptable substitution. No DME or ADF.

I want to have two independent systems for when one goes down when in IFR: Ever see RAIM

[IO540]

Legally you need DME for IFR in more or less all of Europe.

Less so for the ADF; the UK needs it for IFR in CAS but this is rare around Europe.

In terms of avionics reliability, a DME is pretty good (so long as it isn't a Narco :) ) whereas an ADF is pretty crap (the KR87 being the best of a bad bunch, apparently by a decent margin).

In terms of usefulness, I really like my DME because I tend to fly using VOR/DME as a GPS backup, plus there are many approaches on which DME is (or appears to be) mandatory. I consider it mandatory for an ILS.

The Americans can substitute an IFR GPS for a DME but this fails (IIRC) on the alternate airport navaid carriage rules.

An ADF is of limited value. I have the KR87, displayed on a KI-229 RMI, which is probably a "1990s state of the art" presentation, but I would never fly an NDB approach on it - always use the OBS mode of the GPS and only glimpse at the ADF at the start of the inbound track. Same for VOR approaches.

But legally one has to carry the kit, and I am really suprised that Cirrus importers have been allowed to get away with it. Especially not fitting a DME.