If you were lost would you say so??

[fisbangwollop]

Congratulations to the student that told me on Scottish Info today he was lost..:ok: Flying close and approaching controlled airspace he advised me he was lost. With the aid of the FIR Lost squawk and some useful vectors provided to me from D and D we soon got him back on track and a safe landing at his planed airfield non the worse for wear :cool::cool:

This was a succesful outcome because the student had the sense to advise me as soon as he realised all was not well.......well done to him and I hope it has not affected his confidence too much!! :cool::cool::cool:

[Pull what]

Excellent and well done to you for publishing this on here-we need more aviation professionals that understand that students and low hour pilots need encouragement and help not just criticism.

[chris-h]

I recently found out that if you simply tell Scottish or London info that you are lost, they are happy to give you a bearing to your destination airfield. A flight instructor showed me. Its nice to know that they are there for you if need be.. Luckily i havnt needed this service :ok:

I dont think enough people realise this and i think it should be explained prior to a first solo x country flight.

[Put1992]

I was made to do a practice pan call for the situation of being lost to london. I wont lie, I can't remember the correct method of making the call, but it made me confident enough to be in a situation now where now, I wouldn't be scared of simply telling ATC that I'm lost in plain words and letting them help me.

[Rod1]

Useful exercise – get deliberately lost.:ok:

Position yourself well away from CAS. Over the middle of Wales works, but the location has to be sensible.

Switch off your nav aids and do not look at any ground features or the compass for 10 min.

Apply the circle of uncertainty and try to get un lost

If you have not found yourself for the length of time it would take you to reach CAS less 20 min (from the known point at the start of the exercise), turn everything on and ask for help if needed.

This is surprisingly good fun and can be very hard if the vis is not too good.

Having “found” yourself, diverting to the nearest airfield without the tec on is also quite useful.

Rod1
PS I have not done this for some time and intend to do so soon.

[F.A.TAlbert]

Congratulations indeed! That will be a lasting lesson and one which will help keep him on the road towards a safe and successful flight future. I do so wish that many others would follow suit, so many incidents can be avoided by opening yer gob and admitting you need help, at the right time. :D

[fisbangwollop]

Yes indeed...what impressed me most was that on an early solo navex knowing he was lost it may have been easy to keep quiet and try and sort things out and save face....in doing so he would probably got even more lost and busted controlled airspace.........not worrying what people would think he asked for help so in my view should be comended for that...well done :ok: I spoke to one of the clubs instructors at his destination once he had landed and let him know that the student had indeed done all the correct things and in doing so never caused ATC any hassle......dont forget thats what were here for so if you need help please please jusr ask :cool::cool::cool:

[Malcolm G O Payne]

When I was instructing at Oxford some years ago we would do a Practice Practice Pan as a matter of course before allowing students solo out of the circuit, so that they would have no worrries about asking for help if they needed it.

[mad_jock]

Few more months and you can find out what it feels like fisbangwallop :p

For posters that haven't picked up on the fact, FIS is threatening to get a NPPL this summer.

So I want everyone to nag him to start getting his exams out of the way.

[fisbangwollop]

Mad Jock.....Oi who let you out of your sand pit? :ok::ok:

[Fuji Abound]

Yes, but only if the spare GPS was found to not be working as well as the main GPS. :)

[Pull what]

Switch off your nav aids and do not look at any ground features or the compass for 10 min.

Or maybe just learn to navigate with a map and a Mark 1 eyeball.

[mm_flynn]

Or maybe just learn to navigate with a map and a Mark 1 eyeball.
Not that hot a solution for finding XIDIL or GURLU!

Horses for courses, map and Mark1 is fine but so is RNAV, depending on what you fly and your mission.

[IO540]

and the great thing about GPS/RNAV is that it can be used for all flight, VFR and IFR, whereas the map reading method works only if

- VMC, and
- not much haze, and
- you fly over a feature-rich landscape
- you have chosen clear unambiguous waypoints, and
- your stopwatch is always wound up and restarted correctly, and
- you don't deviate from the planned route (things get a lot more involved if you do)

etc...

In 9 years and 1100+hrs I have never been lost or even uncertain of position, for a moment. Something must be working, because despite living in the countryside I still cannot tell one sheep down below from the next one :)

[Pull what]

because despite living in the countryside I still cannot tell one sheep down below from the next one


I understand that in Wales after a few drinks it dosnt matter!

[IO540]

There are a few hundred of them in the field right next to my house, and IMHO, looking at them from here, it would take a lot more than a few drinks.

Maybe on a Monday night.........

here (http://www.sheepjokes.co.uk/)

[Fuji Abound]

Perhaps they just have prettier sheep in Wales.

[FullyFlapped]

... presumably called Baabara ...

[Fuji Abound]

Get caught with a Baabara under each arm in Wales and most likely you will get arrested for pimping.

[Captain Smithy]

A good story, and perhaps a lesson for us all to learn. It is sometimes hard to swallow pride and risk embarrassment but it pays off.

We've all been "temporarily unaware of position" at some point, easily done especially using dead reckoning/landmarks if you've misjudged the wind or it's a bit off forecast, distractions etc., and it's scary if you are close to CAS, but good on the student for not being afraid to call for help when needed, and to FBW for his help. :ok:

Smithy

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<If you have not found yourself for the length of time it would take you to reach CAS less 20 min (from the known point at the start of the exercise), turn everything on and ask for help if needed.>>

Not ultra-wise I suggest as that would almost certainly be the moment when Mr Murphy would ensure that your wireless didn't work.. Then what happens?

[honda cbx]

In my early student solo flying i too became "uncertain of my position" heading towards Sherburn in Elmet, an assist from Humberside and then Church Fenton got me back. Brilliant set of guys and girls :D

[DX Wombat]

Mad Jock.....Oi who let you out of your sand pit?I did, you leave my grandson alone he's a good boy. Mutter, mutter, mutter, FISOs mutter, mutter. :*the moment when Mr Murphy would ensure that your wireless didn't work.. Then what happens? Having been in a similar position on my QXC I can tell you there is no more lonely feeling in the world. However, I kept talking [I knew D&D could hear me although I couldn't hear what they were saying], kept parallel to the runway I could see [Cambridge South - better known as Stansted] :( maintained my height and kept looking for somewhere to land - there are lots of little airfields around there. D&D were wonderful as was Frank Marston at Duxford who realised that all really was NOT well and monitored my calls. I'm still here to prove that the system works.
The full story is much longer than this but I'm not going to repeat it here.

[BEagle]

There are a few hundred of them in the field right next to my house, and IMHO, looking at them from here, it would take a lot more than a few drinks

Perhaps they were thinking the same thing?

So-called 'lost procedure' is, frankly, an anachronsim. If you're "Errm, not exactly sure of my position", then admit it early and tell someone. Either on the frequency in use or, if necessary 121.5. Fast. ATC will soon sort you out; far better that than blundering into someone's airspace uninvited!

And send them a thank you-gram when you get back!

[Pace]

I can remember many moons ago when I did my long solo cross country another student doing his.

We both got to the first landing airfield. My next location was west his was East.

He got lost called ATC and then lost the plot. He ignored all the steers he was given, had a row with ATC basically telling them that they were wrong and he now knew where he was.

He busted Lutons airspace on his merry way before ATC convinced him he was wrong. He eventually landed at a small airfield was given trauma treatment and collected by the club CFI.

He had to go back for further training and never achieved his PPL.
Another know it all Biggles who left a trail of chaos :ugh:

At least he never landed in a tree ;)

Pace

[mad_jock]

Oi granny he's allowed to take the piss. :p

It comes of not submitting a report on my RT for the last 8 years.

Any luck I should be able to get pay back in the circuit.

Going to wear a crash helmit though as the last time I flew with a scottish area guy he took my head off the roof.

[fisbangwollop]

Going to wear a crash helmit though as the last time I flew with a scottish area guy he took my head off the roof.



That would explain everything then MJ....:cool::cool::cool: That flight not with 10W by any chance????

[BackPacker]

Another know it all Biggles who left a trail of chaos

A "these guys are dumb around here - If I would have lived here I would have been a brain surgeon by now" guy training with me was on his QXC to some small airfield. Something like 15 miles out he spotted a runway and headed for it. He duly self-announced himself on the small airfield CTAF frequency, made a nice landing, vacated the runway and only then noticed the control tower and some other infrastructure/features that should not be there. Plus a runway that wasn't properly aligned with the charts.

Panicked, he turned the aircraft around, entered the runway without looking and took off again. To this day I don't know if the story about the 737 on final having to go around because of him is true or not. But he did land on a major international airport instead of a sleepy uncontrolled municipal airport. And took off from an active runway without permission.

When he contacted Approach for flight following, instead of an acknowledgement, he got the "Ah, there you are Sonny. You've got pen and paper there? Because I'm going to give you a telephone number that I want you to call as soon as you've landed."

I finished my training course before he did so I don't know if he's now flying 737s or not. But for a while he was seriously thinking about quitting.

[stickandrudderman]

121.5 is your friend.
Do not be afraid or ashamed to use it.
I did once,shortly after I qualified.
I took off into fading light (I got chatting for too long at the departure airfield) and my 12 minute hop from Elstree to Denham ended up with me in the Heathrow TMA in darkness and calling up 121.5.
I'd had the sense to turn North as soon as I realised I was lost and then sought help which was duly given without fuss. The only slight drama once they directed me back to Denham was that this was my first night landing!!

[Airbusboy]

I am quite embarrassed to say that I got lost in my first solo cross country, but didn't hessitate one bit to contact 121.50

I was mainly nervous, which I think lead to aligning DI inaccurately, and it was quite hazy. My main worry was infringing Luton airspace, and when I saw an Easy Jet with its landing gear down, I knew something was wrong! London info was very helpful and in the end landed safely. Flew the leg back home with no problems despite the adrenaline rush. Luckily didn't fly into Luton CAS, and wasn't too far off track. Should have easily corrected myself with eyeballing inverse ratio method. Lots of lessons learned and didn't put me off navigation. At the end of the day London info are there to help you!

[Pilot DAR]

I was 15 years old, and the guest of a very generous owner pilot, who had taken me along for the mid winter trip to Florida in his C150. We were on our way back, at night, over the mountains of western Maryland. The many errors in this plan were not yet apparent to an enthusiast with so little experience as I had. We were tracking a VOR route north. DME? No! (it was a VFR 150!)

It was not too long before we strayed into cloud, only a few thousand feet over the tops of the mountains. The rather heavily loaded 150 was performing non-spectacularly. We had lots of fuel, so continuing north, away from the mountains seemed like the best plan. So we tracked VOR’s north. This worked very well, with one exception: In my eagerness, I never actually confirmed crossing any!

After a time, I announced that I had our location figured out. I could see the lights of the cities through the clouds, and thought that the form of no light which was Lake Ontario had me all oriented. Not quite…

We called up Hamilton tower, our intended destination, well out, and informed him of our intention to land. As it was now the middle of the night, and all wise Cessna pilots were safely tucked in their beds, we had the place to ourselves, and were cleared to land right then. So we headed down.

We broke through a now whispy layer of cloud, and lined things up. Sure enough, a beautiful runway lay ahead. We reported the runway in sight , and landed, as we had been cleared. Somewhere between the time we landed, and slowing down, I had this uneasy feeling, and looked back, out the now very useful Cessna 150 back window.

To my tremendous alarm, I saw a Boeing 737, who had landed behind us, and was catching up really fast! I instructed my buddy to turn off the runway. He told me that we were not yet at the taxiway. What ever I said next convinced him that was of very minor importance at this moment! My next recollection was that of a Boeing 737 wingtip passing remarkably close to us, as we crowded the left snowbank, and rolled to a stop. I also was keenly aware of the incredible amount of snow which is thrown up by the Boeing’s engines hard in reverse. We were not hit. Well done Boeing driver!

Now, what had just happened there? We looked over at the tower, and saw a red light. It did not flash or anything, it just stayed on – for minutes! So, we just stayed where we were. The Boeing left the scene. After some time, a yellow pickup truck drove up to us, on the door was written “Buffalo Airport Authority” [New York]. Things made a lot more sense now! We were told to follow him. We did.

When we parked. The driver told us, that the tower would like a phone call from the pilot. Once inside, my buddy made the call. It did not go well at all. He was being melted by an angry air traffic controller. Whatever transpired, resulted in him handing the phone to me. The stern voice told me “Do you understand that your friend is in a lot of trouble?”, “Yes” I replied. A few questions in, we got to the “How old are you son?” part. I reported my age. The controller rambled on for a while. Occasionally he asked my thoughts, as though they had value in this situation.

Along the course of the call, feeling a little put upon, I asked the question which had been growing in my mind: “We were squawking 1200, mode C the whole time, and were getting a return, did you not see us on radar?”. Well, that created a long pause….

He said “Put your friend back on the phone.” I complied. Whatever he said to my buddy then went not much farther than satisfying himself that we would not be flying again that night. The phone call ended. My buddy was completely perplexed at this point. We went to a hotel.

Nothing more was ever said to us. We took off the next day as though nothing had happened. I would have loved to be a fly on wall for the conversation between the controller, and the Boeing pilot. I bet there was some apologizing to the pilot. Bear in mind, this was decades before TCAS, so the Boeing pilot, who was certainly doing an instrument approach, would have completely relied on the radar controller for traffic separation. Oops!

[robby90]

I think I heard this conversation on Thursday. I was in the PA28 from Prestwick - Barton. Sounded very well handled on both sides and a good outcome! Its a nice feeling knowing there is always someone looking out for you!

[Fuji Abound]

I recall not exactly getting lost once but having the pax inform me the tank cap was flapping in the breeze and water was streaming off the wing. The water was of course fuel. Ah thinks me slightly keen to get on the ground Lyneham looks the very best option. A quick call and they were more than happy to accomodate and almost immediately I called final. The ATCO couldnt have been better as he said we have put all the runway lights on, that should help you line up correctly - well you have guessed it, in my haste I was almost lined up on one of the very nearby runways which was most certainly not Lyneham. A very good lesson was learned. :) However much you want to be on the ground it is still worth checking it is the correct bit of ground.

PS Pace - nice one.

[eocvictim]

whereas the map reading method works only if

- VMC, and
- not much haze, and
- you fly over a feature-rich landscape
- you have chosen clear unambiguous waypoints, and
- your stopwatch is always wound up and restarted correctly, and
- you don't deviate from the planned route (things get a lot more involved if you do)

etc...

When I was an instructor I would include all of the above (where possible haze isn't always an issue) in a PPL nav ex. Fairly ambiguous waypoints (where small powerlines intersect was a favourite) over fairly featureless terrain over 100nm with a deviation mid track; all done with map and timing, no additional aids. Such is life when flying in Aus.

I was happy for a student to get lost so long as they found there location without any help. A part of the final nav ex's the student was to fly low level for 20nm then fly IF for 10-20mins conducting several turns and all the standard IF components (climbing/descending etc). I would then take them out from under the hood give them an engine failure. After completing the forced landing they were expected to find their location and take us home.

Call my harsh but I never had a problem handing them over for test and was more than happy to sign them out on a cross country flight.

Good to hear that a student has been taught not to be afraid of ATC/centre/info.

[fisbangwollop]

I think I heard this conversation on Thursday. I was in the PA28 from Prestwick - Barton. Sounded very well handled on both sides and a good outcome! Its a nice feeling knowing there is always someone looking out for you!

Thanks for that....sorry if you felt a wee bit neglected but had my hands full for 5 minutes or so!! :cool::cool::cool::cool:

[DX Wombat]

Oi granny he's allowed to take the piss. OK MJ, as long as you are happy but if he oversteps the mark just let me know.
I don't think you will have much trouble from that ATCO - unless you are going to be helping him get current again.
To be fair to the SCAT FISOs, it was a talk by one of them and someone from ScMil several years ago which gave me the confidence to call D&D as soon as I had problems. The oft repeated "CALL US EARLY!!! Please do not leave it to the last moment. We would much sooner sort out a minor problem than have to ask someone to go out and pick up the pieces" That, and their reassurance that nobody would get into trouble if they called 121.5 for something which eventually proved to be minor.

[flybymike]

Thank goodness the thread title has been corrected. I am far too polite to point out grammatical errors, even when they are driving me nuts! ;)

[Dan Winterland]

While flying training in the RAF, we were always told not to be too proud to call for a "training fix". However, pride dictated that it wasn't the done thing.

One day, on a rare CAVOK day, the course were sent off for general handling solos in an early stage of the course. On guard, one of the course was heard calling for a training fix, shortly followed by a

"Oi - that's my callsign and it's not me who's lost!"

Unfortunately, the perpetrator had a distinctive accent so it was obvious who he was. After a quick "chat'' from the flight commander about integrity, he was marched off to the bar to purchase a considerable quantity of beer for his course mates.



The lesson was, don't be too proud and don't delay and violate someones' airspace.

[barit1]

Overheard on 121.5:

"Airfield with a green Piper Cherokee overhead, Please identify yourself!"
:ok:

[fisbangwollop]

Thank goodness the thread title has been corrected. I am far too polite to point out grammatical errors, even when they are driving me nuts!

I hope your comment improves flight safety!!...I think not.....sorry if I did'nt have the same quality of education that you obviously had!!!:}:}:}:}

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I took off into fading light (I got chatting for too long at the departure airfield) and my 12 minute hop from Elstree to Denham ended up with me in the Heathrow TMA in darkness >>

Did you really mean the London TMA or the London Control Zone?

[flybymike]

I didnt mean any offence FBW and I didn't utter a word until you yourself presumably corrected the mistake (perhaps after someone esle had mentioned it,) and I did post a smilie; but sorry for mentioning it anyway...;)

[stickandrudderman]

You're right, I meant control zone, but you've already worked that out!

[goldeneaglepilot]

Perhaps this is relevant here - I posted this earlier in a thread about misuse of 121.5. Had the lost student called earlier he may have avoided his death. I did say in my earlier posting "the student had done his best", however that refers to the fact that he did make a (late) mayday call. The accident report said that he had been airbourne for over two hours when the mayday was first heard and had been lost on his return to his home airfield, a flight which should have taken him no more than 40 mins. that means he pressed on trying to find his way for over an hour before asking for any help, by which time he was in an area of poor reception and poor terrain.

"It amazes me to see people abuse 121.5 - one day it may be my life which depends upon it. In the early 90's I was flying a Rutan Longeze (N Reg) in the UK for a quick flight before the summer light faded. The evening was lovely, calm, great viz but only about 60mins to sunset. I had decided to have a flight in the local area, as was my normal practice com 2 was set to 121.5, at 8000' over the Malvern hills I heard a weak mayday. The voice was very panicked, it called three times without any reply. I spoke to D&D and they asked me to relay for them, It turned out to be a student pilot who was lost and it turned out was flying towards the Welsh mountains (at the time that was unknown to the student pilot). Due to his weak transmission they were unable to DF the plane. D&D asked if I would fly west to see if his transmission got stronger, I stayed airbourne as long as I dared, however with only an hours fuel left and fading light, in an experimental aircraft not cleared or equiped for night flight I had no choice but to return to my base airfield.

No other planes joined in the emergency and no one else offered to relay. The student was found dead in the Welsh mountains the following morning.

The student had done his best - he had called for help. D&D (UK) at the time had poor coverage low level, of the mountains. I could not have safely stayed airbourne any longer so felt I had tried my best.

I wonder to this day if this would have had a better outcome if more people in the UK monitored 121.5 rather than switching it off as a distraction?"

In my opinion it does not matter who you are or how experienced you are, if you get lost (for what ever reason - we all have bad days) don't be proud and ask for help early. Its better to face a bit of ribbing from your mates than to infringe busy controlled airspace or crash into ground which you did not realise was there.

[fisbangwollop]

I didnt mean any offence FBW and I didn't utter a word until you yourself presumably corrected the mistake (perhaps after someone esle had mentioned it,)
FLYBYMIKE......no offence taken dont worry and no I did'nt correct the grammer as I did'nt realise I hade made a mistake with it until someone sent me a PM advising my grammer in the title was incorrected....OK then so I cant spell or do English too well either but I reckon when it come's to talking to pilots that are lost I am OK!! :cool::cool::cool:

OK then lest hope thats the English lesson over with and lets get back to the subject of "Flight Safety" :=

[effortless]

On a navex as a callow youth I ask my instructor "would you say I was lost sir."

"Why, do you think it would help?"

[AndyGB]

When I was learning in California due to DI progression (precession ?) I got lost on a solo XC. I flew a reciprocal course back to my last checkpoint and found the error and headed back in over the mountains to Gillespie, this time with my DI and compass agreeing.

However that initial problem had put me about 40 minutes behind schedule and was flying into a low, setting sun and a sea mist was rolling in. Which effectively obscured most ground features and I was scared I was going to fly into a hill. However a quick call to Gillespie confessing to being lost and asking for vectors meant they were able to guide me in. After about 10 minutes they told me to look out my right hand window and I should be able to see the runways at about three miles and I could, much to my relief.

Never be afraid to admit you are lost or have made a mistake !