Can I fly in the right seat and still be PIC? [Archive]

BackPacker

9th Mar 2010, 11:19

There is no legal rule that specifies where the PIC has to sit.

However, there may be limitations in the POH, the flying order book or some other document that you have to live by. Usually for either W&B reasons (tandem seating, light helicopters) or because not all controls can be reached from a certain seat.

Furthermore, you have to ask yourself whether it's wise. Swapping seats, in a lot of aircraft, also means swapping flying hands because the throttle controls in a lot of aircraft are exclusively in the center console. You also might have to look at certain instruments sideways which makes it harder to interpret them. And the sight picture may be different from the RHS, particularly when doing steep turns and the like.

My club requires a specific checkout if you want to fly as PIC from the RHS, and this is usually only done for instructors.

Wildpilot

9th Mar 2010, 12:03

Allot of float pilots are forced to sit on the right due to docking and wind so as the above post says unless the POH states that it is not allowed then as long as you have practiced and are very confident then it is fine.

Pilot DAR

9th Mar 2010, 12:04

Excellent advice from Backpacker, and I quite agree.

As you're asking the question, it is to be presumed that you are not an instructor (or you'd know the answer). You must ask yourself, "what is the need for me to swap seats?". The first conclusion that people will draw is that you are dabbling in flight instruction - bad idea to allow that conclusion to exist, for all kinds of reasons. Just flying around from that side is one thing, and yes, your pilot skill should make that managable for you. But, if an important thing goes bang, and you miss something because you were "out of the norm" for piloting, you're going to be aswering a lot of questions you won't like. Was it worth it?

I'd fly conventionally as much as you are able, It'll make it look like everything is normal, and that's good in aviation!

hatzflyer

9th Mar 2010, 12:07

No not in any of my aircraft. ( 3 single seaters and one tandem):ok:

Fuji Abound

9th Mar 2010, 12:26

Furthermore, you have to ask yourself whether it's wise.

I appreciate it is not the question you are asked, but it may be worth comment.

Flying form the RHS for the first few times is surprisingly really different and most noticeable when you come to land. In fact I would hazard that there is a real risk of an accident flying form the RHS for the first few landings.

If it is something you plan to do (and have never done before) it is well worth a few circuits with an instructor.

Pilots flying with group members etc might often be tempted to help out by sitting in the RHS when another member is less than current. That is all very well (assuming the pilot is current enough to carry passengers) but I still reckon the RHS pilot should feel capable of landing the aircraft if required.

BristolScout

9th Mar 2010, 12:42

Good sense in all the above replies. In summary, it's not illegal in terms of the ANO unless there is a specific restriction in the POH. However, questions might be asked in the case of an incident where seat position might be a contributing factor. The position of the fuel cock on the left-hand wall of the Cherokee springs to mind and some aircraft may only have brakes on the left rudder pedals. You should certainly consider a few circuits with an instructor or other experienced person in the left to familiarise yourself with the differences in a controlled environment. Finally, remember if two pilots are flying together in an aircraft certified for single pilot operation, they have to agree who is pilot-in-command before they set off.:ok:

StudentPilot21

9th Mar 2010, 13:29

Thanks for all the quick responses. Its in my own aircraft (CESSNA172 Skyhawk) Im only asking as I have a friend who loves aviation and only has one hour in an aircraft and hes asked me if he would be able to sit in the left seat just for a better experience I suppose? Ill have a look through the POH and probably book a dual hour with the local flying club.

Thanks again for all the responses.

S-Works

9th Mar 2010, 13:34

Read the comments above. Unless you are trained and experienced to fly from the RHS then in the scenario you are giving I would suggest you reconsider. I would also suggest that it is way too close to being a trial lesson. if the passenger only has one hour then they will be oblivious to the differences sitting in the LHS will show.

Fuji Abound

9th Mar 2010, 14:31

Bose-X makes a further good point in light of your fuller explanation. As I commented earlier in the circumstance you describe it is imperative you can fly the aircraft from the RHS. Please dont assume you can, and please do at least a circuit with an instructor to see what it is like. You need to be able to fly the aircraft from the RHS as if there was no one in the LHS.

My mate often flys his aircraft LHS with no one else on board - but as an instructor and BA training captain it is very much second nature. Trust me it will seem a bit odd the first landing or two. :)

DX Wombat

9th Mar 2010, 15:18

I did some extra training to fly from the RH seat so that a friend and I could fly together. She could only use the LH seat as she requires special aids and it was much easier for her to get in and out of the LH seat. Once I had done the training it meant that life was much easier as we didn't need to change around and there were two people in the aircraft who could land it.

StudentPilot21

9th Mar 2010, 15:24

Thanks for the comments.
Im glad I asked now. Ive decided ill fly from the LHS with any flight and maybe one day get a couple of hours with an instructor and see how I feel flying on the RHS.

Thanks for all the feedback :ok:

dont overfil

9th Mar 2010, 15:47

SP21,
Maybe you would be better with a ppl beside you. I know instructors who can't fly from the left seat.
DO.

Rod1

9th Mar 2010, 16:59

Some time ago I flew my DR400 to an airfield for lunch. On getting in it to fly back, the pilots seat broke (the welds at the bottom of the back failed. I knew that there was no restriction on flying P1 from the RHS, so I secured the bits and flew home. It is a good job I did not read the above first…

Rod1

hatzflyer

9th Mar 2010, 19:11

Rod, I once took off in the left seat of a 1050 and landed in the right!:ok:

Maoraigh1

9th Mar 2010, 20:43

After our left seatbelt was condemned last year, I checked that it was not forbidden, and continued flying our group DR1050 from the right hand seat, until the replacement arrived. I first went to 2500', and tried the handling characteristics. It was VERY different from flying from the RHS with one or two up. Aileron was needed at all times. Steep turns were wobbly in one direction, easier in the other.
One up, in the LHS, the plane stalls with no wing drop. One up, in the RHS, stalling was impossible. As speed reduced, the aircraft right wing dropped, before the stall, and a spiral dive began. All landings were wheelers. Cross wind landings were no more a problem than usual.

Pilot DAR

9th Mar 2010, 21:50

You may find the latter part of one of my many tales, relevent to the subject...

One of my earlier approval projects was the approval of antennas on a Cessna 172. These antennas were mounted on the wingstruts, and used to track wildlife.

As agreed , my client came for a meeting one day. He brought along another fellow, who he introduced as his chief pilot. We discussed the flight test I would be doing. Presuming that one of them would want to fly with me, I asked who it would be. They sort of paused, and looked at each other, then the chief pilot said to my client (his boss), “well you flew the plane last, so you’re more current”. It was thus agreed that my client would fly with me, presumably for the main role of validating the insurance with me flying.

So the day came. My client asked if I would need to fly from left seat. I asked him when he had last flown, and he told me that he not flown for six months”. I told him that I would fly from left seat. I politely did not make it optional.

During the flight, my client mentioned that he would be checking out his four pilots in the plane next week. So after my landing, I offered that my client could do a few circuits from the right seat, to prepare himself for acting as safety pilot during the checkouts next week. He agreed, with hesitation.

His first two landings were not at all good, the third one, I took over at the last minute to prevent what I believed would have been a damagingly hard landing. We came to a stop on the runway, with me in control.

I told him that I though that he should rethink the checkouts, because if the pilot missed the landing, it did not seem to me that he would have the fresh skills to fix it. He seemed to see my point.

Mark1234

9th Mar 2010, 22:08

Interesting. I've never flown RHS (nor will I without appropriate assistance), but I confess my logical mind suggests shouldn't make that much difference - whereas nobody seems to make much fuss about which end of a tandem aircraft you fly from - where to me that would seem to be a bigger deal!

I guess the rigging would be a little biassed towards the plane being left side heavy, but less than a decent fuel imbalance surely?

cct

10th Mar 2010, 00:11

I met a guy in a 4 seat Jabiru the year before last at Bourn. He said he always flew from the RHS because he found it easier.

IFMU

10th Mar 2010, 02:10

I learned to fly in a PA12 super cruiser, cousin to the cub. It was tandem, stick controls, throttle on the left. A buddy of mine learned to fly in a 152 in the left seat of course. After we got our ratings, and after I had checked out in nosedraggers, we decided to see what flying from the right seat of the 152 was like. So, I jump in the left, my buddy jumps in the right, and off we bore to Block Island, RI for lunch. The landing was bad. I had thoughts several times of taking over but thought we would survive, so I let him finish the deed. It was ugly. We were taxiing up to the FBO, suddenly he brightens up - "You know what the best part of that landing was? They are all going to think you did it."

Post lunch, now I am in the right, my buddy on the left, and the nosewheel is still attached. We bore into the air and are headed back to CT. I am flying right handed again, throttle in the left, it feels better to me than the 152 has ever felt before. Back home I set up a nice approach, and do the B E S T landing I have ever done in the 152. As we taxi up to the pumps he looks at me and says "You know what the best part of that landing was? They are all going to think I did it."

Left seat or right seat is no big deal. Go with an instructor or qualified person first, it does not make sense to experiment with a non-pilot buddy.

-- IFMU

Pilot DAR

10th Mar 2010, 03:18

Good post IFMU...

Fuji Abound

10th Mar 2010, 09:35

Interesting reading others experiences.

My own experience having flown with a few pilots who want to have a go from the RHS for the first time is similiar - some are very good, and some are very bad. I have no idea why because it doesnt seem to follow their RHS abilities.

Personally although it is many years ago since I did a few circuits with an instructor in the RHS I expected it to not be an issue at all. After all I have driven in plenty of cars the "other way around" and never found there to be an issue. I actually found that it was more different that I expected and knew that some of my flying was not as smooth as it would have been from the LHS. As I said earlier I found the approach and landing the most interesting aspect. I dont think it has anything to do with where the throttle is or the layout but presumably a lot more to do with how our brains interpret the visual cues during the approach. Of course after a few you wonder what the fuss was about. If there is anything in common between people perhaps the less time people have in the LHS the more quickly they adapt to the RHS.

hatzflyer

10th Mar 2010, 10:01

mauraigh1,
Are you sure it is not just your perception that was changed?
I used to fly my 1050 from either seat. It made no difference to the flight characteristics of the plane.There is no logical reason why it would.
I even got it up to 5000ft and then climbed out of the left seat into the right in flight just to see if I could.
Going back to your post, the only way that the aircraft would behave differently would be if it was badly out of trim and compensation had been set so as to allow for the fact that it was always flown solo .

Maoraigh1

10th Mar 2010, 19:35

Very sure. From take off, I had to use some left stick. When I tried to stall, as the speed reduced, I needed more aileron. Then with full left stick, the right wing dropped and a gentle descending left turn followed, before the stall warning came on, or mushing started.
Completely different from flying from the right seat with someone in the left. There was no left seat, either, but it doesn't weigh much. My mass was around 90kg.

lasseb

15th Mar 2010, 22:26

What I found most difficult when I started my FI course, was actually using the throttle. Controlling the yoke with right hand in stead of left doesn't really make any difference for me. (if you are left handed it might though).

But controlling the throttle with left hand was quite a mess the first hours. Those minor +/- 50 RPM adjustment on final jumped to +/- 300RPM adjustments making the landing all the more fun. Again it might be different if you are left handed.

My recommendation would be to try the RHS with a pilot friend in the left. You don't have to pay for an instructor. Then choose a nice day with calm winds, and use a long runway. Then there is no problem at all.

mad_jock

15th Mar 2010, 23:04

You get used to it to the point that which seat you sit in doesn't matter. Personally I prefer the RHS in puddle jumpers cause I have 1000 hours in the right hand seat and 200 in the left. In fact when I got my SEP back after nearly 5 years I did the test straight from the RHS

I can't remember to much issues with swapping to RHS. And now I have been current for both seats on the TP's for over 3 years now. Never an issue, sometimes swap seats half way through the day.

Whopity

16th Mar 2010, 09:10

I was on a C130 Course where the Captain failed because he could not make the transition from the RHS to the LHS. He became an ATCO for 2 years. Some of the landings were interesting to say the least especially the final one at night.

IO540

16th Mar 2010, 09:23

One instructor explained to me one of the major benefits of being an instructor.

In the PA28, the fuel valve is way over the LH side, and if you have a female student with a short skirt (for some reason, which totally escapes me, more women wear short skirts when having lessons than in "normal" life) then the necessary fuel selector check (due diligence, you know) involves leaning right over her legs.

That instructor suddenly vanished from the airfield, with various people looking for him, including allegedly the fathers of two young ladies who were about 1/3 of his age. However I am sure that is a complete rumour and he was a 100% erect (I meant to say "upright") gentleman. As an instructor he was the best of the (admittedly dubious) bunch of whom two others managed to make students pregnant while I was doing the PPL (I mean not while I was in the plane with them, obviously). He claimed to have an ATPL but that was a fake and he didn't know how an HSI worked, but he did once tell me that I will kill myself and he knows how (by not trimming for the correct airspeed during the approach phase). That piece of advice is no doubt why I am still around, because sure as hell no other instructor ever told me what that funny wheel does, other than to relieve the pressure (pressure on the yoke I mean).

I was on a C130 Course where the Captain failed because he could not make the transition from the RHS to the LHS. He became an ATCO for 2 years. Some of the landings were interesting to say the least especially the final one at night

There is a suprise ;) But, tell us, why only 2 years? :)