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View Full Version : How long does the 747-200 have left in Europe?


SpringbokDreamer
9th Mar 2010, 09:33
I'm hearing stories of the 747-200 being pushed out of Europe in either 2011/2112.

Both Nav equipment and noise being cited. Does anyone know of the facts?

Thanks kindly

Dreamer:ok:

GlueBall
10th Mar 2010, 12:49
Not sure about the 74 classic engines noise issues. But I seriously doubt that "NAV" equipment would be a factor. GPS is about as accurate as you can get, and I've seen some classics fitted with Honeywell FMS, the same units, or nearly identical, as we have in the -400s. I've also seen a moving map TV mounted in the pedestal forward of the throttle quadrant.

Keep in mind that a number of classics are fitted with early -400 engines, [CF6-80C2B] which would still be noise compliant beyond 2011. Some classics still rolled out in 1990, two years after the first -400s came out of the shop.

18-Wheeler
10th Mar 2010, 14:05
Not sure about the 74 classic engines noise issues. But I seriously doubt that "NAV" equipment would be a factor. GPS is about as accurate as you can get, and I've seen some classics fitted with Honeywell FMS, the same units, or nearly identical, as we have in the -400s. I've also seen a moving map TV mounted in the pedestal forward of the throttle quadrant.

Yep, just like the ones I used to fly.

http://www.billzilla.org/747freighterfms.jpg

They were converted 767 Honeywell FMS's. BA had 15 Classics converted to FMS and the mob I worked for ended up with three of them. Rather civilised. :)

Heilhaavir
10th Mar 2010, 14:25
18-wheeler, did these airplanes have VNAV capability?

olivermbs
10th Mar 2010, 14:25
Interesting setup there, 18-Wheeler. The moving map looks a lot like that of the MD-11. Are there still any INS driven classics flying around Europe?

SMOC
10th Mar 2010, 14:43
I keep hearing something about Heathrow noise issues in the near future with the RR powered -400s only, BA must be on top of it :confused:

18-Wheeler
11th Mar 2010, 00:31
Heilhaavir - Yes.
olivermbs - Those still used the Delco Mk4 INS's, so they needed to be updated all the time for good nav tolerance. Without updates they'd wander off pretty quickly.

N707ZS
12th Mar 2010, 10:39
I think 747-200s are quite rare in Europe now just through old age.

MK has some, how many more are there?

Charlie_Fox
12th Mar 2010, 16:10
Well you can see 747-200F of Evergreen, Kalitta, Southern Air, CAL, El Al and Atlas in Liege / Hahn / Ramstein every day.

muduckace
12th Mar 2010, 16:53
I understood that the -400 could not meet stage 4 noise abatement due to the environmental noise of the airframe and the extra engine over the MD-11 that was certified. Anyone know how many airports are stage 4 now because this was old news and applied to BRU (EBBR?) and I wonder if they changed the DB's for stage 4 to allow the -400 as Belgum was one of the first to go stage 4 at some of their airports.

Semu
12th Mar 2010, 21:53
Given that the IL-76 is banned and regularly waived to fly into certain European airports, and given the amount of money several European airports make off of 747 classic tech stops, I doubt there will be an outright ban. Cost of operation will make it a moot point soon enough, with -400s now going in the $20 range.
I have been told that the newer classics can (barely) make stage four.

GlueBall
13th Mar 2010, 02:51
Instead of an outright operating ban at noise sensitive airports, the operating hours will become more restrictive. The noisier birds will likely be restricted to day time operations.

stilton
13th Mar 2010, 05:00
Interesting picture. Are the fuel flow gauges on the Flight Engineer's panel ?

18-Wheeler
13th Mar 2010, 09:04
Yep, along with a heap of other stuff.

stilton
14th Mar 2010, 00:32
Thanks, I think I have seen them (fuel flow gauges) on the forward instrument
panel before that's why I ask.

GlueBall
14th Mar 2010, 03:31
stilton . . . for the classics, cockpit configurations are exactly as the original paying customers had ordered.

Some customers wanted switch positions reversed, fuel flow in the back, N3 up front, N2 in back, transponder on the overhead, transponder on the pedestal, Surface Position Indicator next to the captain's right knee or the copilot's left knee, pneumatic control on the upper F/E panel, or on F/E center panel, A/P switches on the left side of glareshield, or on right side of glareshield, A/P switch positions as A-B-C or A-C-B, . . . etc, etc, etc, etc.

Thankfully, the glass cockpit birds are much more standardized across the airline spectrum. :ooh:

SNS3Guppy
16th Mar 2010, 05:39
Are there still any INS driven classics flying around Europe?

Yes, there are. On a very regular basis. And yes, in current configuration, they're very capable of meeting all nav requirements. Regular RNP capability is right around .1.

Every night 747's with Litton 92's are landing all around Europe. Many of them are updated using GNS inputs,and use top boxes that are FMS's rather than the standard Litton head, but the INS and IRS units are still there, and still drive the gyros and systems on board the aircraft.