Is NATS international?

[coldwhisp]

Hey there guys and gals

I am wanting to work as an atc, i tried applying to EUROCONTROL but as some of you, my birthday is on september so for one month i am not able to get training there.
I tried with NATS and got accepted BUT even that im livin on the UK im spanish and i do not want to work on a future on the UK, neither on Spain (I cannot be arsed with our goverment, treats atc like thiefs when they are they real thiefs anyway) So i am really looking further on working on Switzerland on a future,even that my french skills are low and my german skills are zero, i can work on them.

So my question is, where can i take the training that will make me able to work on Switzerland on a future (not bein Eurocontrol) ??
Because with NATS you suposed to stay on the UK/Ireland or Scotland right?

I would really appreciate your answers...

Thanks

[eastern wiseguy]

Wait until you are old enough and try for Eurocontrol or apply direct to the Swiss.

[Pat42]

ATC isn't like a lot of other jobs where you can get a generic qualification and then pick and choose from a wide range of potential employers. Generally you train with the company you intend on working for and it is not particularly easy to transfer qualifications between different organisations or countries as there is a lot of locality and unit specific training.

NATS only work in the UK, if you work for them (and are successful at training) you will earn the necessary qualifications to work as an ATCO for NATS in the UK. Some elements of that training may be transferable to another country's ATS provider but most will not and such a transfer is often strewn with difficulties and will likely involve more effort than it is worth. That is assuming that they will even be interested in taking you on, which is quite a significant assumption considering most European ATS providers are quite good at fulfilling their staffing requirements through their normal recruitment processes and don't often advertise positions for experienced controllers.

Find out who operates the airspace you want to work in and train with them... if it's Eurocontrol then just wait a few months, in the long run it isn't going to make a really significant difference and will certainly be less hassle than training elsewhere and then trying to move later.

[alfaman]

NATS presently provides ATCOs within the UK, & also Gibralter; there are oportunities beyond those, but they tend to be beyond street level ATCO, in consulting work or traning etc.
Skyguide offer ab-initio training opportunities, I believe, but there are linguistic restrictions - you'd need to check their website to see what the present situation is. If you trained with NATS, you'd have a licence that would be acceptable within Europe, certainly, & wider, so could apply to Skyguide - they've taken ATCOs with UK licences before. But, it would be leaving one employer for another, rather than the Eurocontrol option mentioned.

[coldwhisp]

No, the problem is not that im old enough but that im 24 and 25 on september, cant go if im 25 before october, silly stuff
anyway thanks for ur answers, ill wait to finish my degree course, stufy german meanwhile and apply with swiss directly

Thanks a lot

[punk666]

My girlfriend is thinking about becoming an air traffic controller and applying for NATS.

I was always under the assumption that you can go to different countries as a controller as english is the aviation language, and all you have to do is a course on local procedures etc etc.

If anyone can give more information about this it would be appreciated.

[Lon More]

From the Skyguide website
You can apply if you ...

have completed secondary school with an A-level, a 3-year commercial apprenticeship or a 4-year technical apprenticeship
are a Swiss citizen (condition for military training), have a residence permit C or are a citizen of one of the EU-17/EFTA States
are aged between 19 and 30 years (year of birth is the deciding factor)
are German or French-speaking and have a very good command of English at the start of training
have a flair for logical thinking and dealing simultaneously with multiple tasks
are able to work under pressure and in a team
are very reliable and have a strong sense of responsibility.

I'm not sure if you mean "study" or "stuff" German, but the requirement is for fluency in one of the two languages.

You state you are Spanish; what's wrong with applying for Spain?


all you have to do is a course on local procedures etc etc.a slight over-simplification for a procedure that could take a year.

[punk666]

Obviously that was a bit simplified but you understand what I was trying to say right.

What is the difference between an Uk ATC and an ICAO ATC ? If I did an ICAO ATC course will that allow me to use it internationally or not.

Im more familiar with flying than ATC so thats why im asking :ok:

[coldwhisp]

Lon More : (http://www.pprune.org/members/7695-lon-more)

I have very clear where i want to live and where i dont want to.
if i study on Spain i have to work and live there and if u read my first post u will see why i do not want to do that.
i gave the reasons for the ones i do not want to work and live as an ATC on Spain.

Whats wrong with wanting to go to another country? ffs had enough of those silly comments here on the UK. The question was not: where can i get taining for ATC,
but where can i get training for become an ATC and be able to work on SWITZERLAND. if u dont like my plans, pass to the next thread.

and yes obviously i meant STUDY and not STUFF.

[alfaman]

If you gain a UK CAA licence, that should be compliant with the requirements for ESARR5, which would authorise you to work in mainland Europe, once you've undergone the local competency requirement. A UK licence is also considered sufficient for a number of other countries across the world: the issue there becomes one of right to live & work. However, an ICAO licence may not be sufficient to work in Europe, that would probably depend on who issued the licence & ratings.
However, the local requirements should not be underestimated. Whilst English may be the language used on the radio, co-ordination, documentation & social integration would tend to be in the language of that country, & that can present its own challenges - which can be part of the fun, of course. Also, English is one of the ICAO languages, not the only one. The rules are a little more complex than that.

[10W]

As a NATS trainer, I'd want to know how long you intended staying with NATS in the UK.

If it was only to get the licence and then leave ... why waste my valuable time and the time of NATS, whilst also denying a training slot to someone who actually has some commitment to 'pay back' the costs of their training by hanging around ?

If it's to do a few years work before moving on, I'd have understanding.

[Lon More]

obviously i meant STUDY and not STUFF

Obviously? No, not from the standard of spelling in your posts.

As 10W mentioned; we are looking for a level of commitment when recruiting. Your attitude would probably not even get you through the paper sort. FWIW I have come across a number of controllers from Switzerland who were not happy there and wished to leave.

10W I thought they were planning to introduce bonding in the UK to stop this sort of thing?

[eastern wiseguy]

Lon I have been banging on for ages about exactly this. In NSL we simply cannot afford to give "non state" airfields recently validated ..or at the very least well trained TATC's. We are trying to operate as a business...we should DEMAND some commitmemt from these people. I watched recently as people at my unit wasted their time and expertise just to let another airport pick up the controller.
When the cost is analysed it must be worthwhile to demand a training bond. We are not in the same world that existed when I trained.

[On the beach]

In NSL we simply cannot afford to give "non state" airfields recently validated

Welcome to the real world of a free economy where supply and demand rules apply. I think you just answered your own statement "we simply cannot afford..." Perhaps you need to up your salaries. I'm sure most newly graduated ATCOs would only consider moving away from NSL if there was a pretty big incentive i.e.more money, quicker promotion etc.

'nuff said, On the beach :ok:

[eastern wiseguy]

OTB

I can assure you that whilst NSL has recently joined the world of commerce the little bit I inhabit has been working bloody hard to retain our own contract for years. We are particularly sensitive to price and the needs of the customer. The fact that cadets/students/trainees whatever they are these days decide after initial validation choose to remove themselves from their posting and move to a non NSL unit(perhaps closer to home)does nothing for finances nor in fact for the morale of the people who trained them. As for your assertion that Perhaps you need to up your salaries. I simply don't follow your logic.

[10W]

Hi Lon,

No bonding with NATS yet. I haven't seen it in any discussions or proposals as yet either.

As eastern wiseguy says, it seems silly for NATS to pay for someone to get all the way through to validation and then watch them leave with zero commitment.

If we want to play the market forces card, then O'Leary and his brethren have already proven that market forces in their part of the industry means that pilots pay for almost everything themselves before getting a seat up the pointy end.

I wouldn't necessary go that far, but would like to see people sign up for a minimum employment term with a sliding scale 'bond' to pay back their training costs if they leave earlier than agreed. Whether there is a legal basis for enforcing such a scheme would be an issue though.

Bottom line for me remains that I don't want to waste valuable time training someone who doesnt want to be there the minute they qualify.

[anotherthing]

Whether there is a legal basis for enforcing such a scheme would be an issue though.
Bonding would be very simple to introduce, it would just need a change to your initial contract... you would sign it before you started at DAT&S.

As for the legalities or enforcing it - UK Employment Law would allow it as long as the contract was properly written. There are plenty of precedents - UK Mil for one.

All it would need is a properly drawn up contract. This is something that should have been done years ago - it would have been easier to do pre-PPP but is still very easy to do... whether the union would agree to it is another thing, but it makes total sense as a business and I'm sure OJTI's would agree with the principle.

It would not be a mill stone around a trainees neck, as a few years practical experience after training will make them even more attractive to any other employer.

As for paying for your own training as happens with pilots - I don't think that will ever work... the 'glamour' or preceived kudos of being an airline pilot is apparent to kids from a young age... hardly anyone knows what ATC is about.

If you were to take a survey of the people who do pay for their own training in the UK for ATC, I'd bet that the majority of people would be either (in no particular order), people who have failed at some stage at DAT&S (or even at selection) and want to continue pursuing a career, people who have left the Mil or people who are sponsored by individual airports. I'd wager that there is only a very small percentage of people that decide from the outset that they want to get into ATC purely by self sponsorship.

Until the public actually understands what ATC is about (not a man in overalls with two table tennis bats), then you will not get a big enough uptake in numbers of people willing to pay themselves through training... training that is more difficult to pass than flying training because with flying training, if you have the money, you can throw as many hours at each stage as you need to... ATC is much more regulated in that respect and is very time constrained.

NATS would probably want to have self sponsorship right from the get-go - I agree with 10W in that I don't believe that it is a good idea, but if that's what NATS wants, they are going to have to put in a lot of groundwork beforehand.

I believe NATS was approached several years ago to see if they would be happy for a TV crew to follow trainees from start to validation as part of a 'fly-on-the-wall' series. They turned it down, but this is the sort of exposure that is needed to garner interest.

[throw a dyce]

Yep,
Bond them for 5 years,which is about the time it takes to get a Tower and Approach Radar controller fully trained.That gives them the minimum experience level for Dubai,so they just head off there on huge money.
The people left are still there listening to the same old NSL record about costs,contracts etc.
Market forces.That's why Dubai are paying more,because they need to attract people.They have to renew a contract as well.:hmm:

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

NATS/NSL get what they give.

Very recently, 3 trainees "A", "B" and "C" were holding at a certain unit, let's say EGXX. A and B were sent there to hold waiting for the next course. C elected to hold there as there weren't places immediately available on the APC course so he/she took a voluntary hold. After all, C is from EGXX and saved the company money by staying at home rather than at a hotel, unlike A and B, who are not from EGXX, nor they are interested in working there.

Long story short, EGXX got 2 trainees out of 3 from the A-B-C lot.
I let you guess which one did NOT get EGXX.

I'm also guessing that trainee "C" will not feel sorry for NSL by the time he/she leaves the company!

[chevvron]

NATS operated bonding some years ago with a batch of ex military controllers trained at Dundridge College. Some of these resigned soon after getting their ATCO licences; when NATS tried to get their bond back, at least one fought it in court and won.
IAL/SERCo used to train their own controllers for their own units and stopped the cost of the course out of their pay.

[Barnaby the Bear]

I have just come across this article.

Hampshire firms have their eyes on £1bn MoD deal - Portsmouth Today (http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/biz/Hampshire-firms-have-their-eyes.6143218.jp)

Which military airfields would they be looking at? Brize etc. Or just the ones currently serviced by civvie ATCO's (Wyton, Wattisham etc etc.).

Sorry if this is a bit of a thread drift.

[BDiONU]

Last I was involved was about 3 years ago but the article has it right, VF for building stuff, Thales for the wiggly amp gear and NATS to project manage the whole lot, cause we're good at ATC projects. Dunno about the bit where NATS staff were supposed to man the towers, thought that would still be MOD.

BD

[On the beach]

Companies/Governments recruiting ATCOs for overseas jobs in the next few years won't be looking for newly validated ATCOs with zip-all experience. They will be looking for experienced ATCOs, probably in the 35 - 50 age bracket, preferably multi-rated, like Australia did many years ago when Ronnie Reagan donated his controllers for free and the Middle East did 25+ years ago when they were all building their own international airports and Hong Kong did 15 odd years ago when they had failed to recruit enough, and they don't come cheap and they are very expensive to replace.

Non-NATS airports have always looked to "buy" newly trained ATCOs straight from the College of Knowledge. What they save on initial training costs and time can be used to supplement the salaries being offered to encourage graduates to jump ship.

There used to be a story that the old IAL paid an HR man to stand at the college gates on graduation day with a cheque book and a contract to work for them. Urban myth? Next time it's graduation day see if there is anyone waiting at the gates!

IATA is predicting a strong recovery for airlines this year:

BBC News - Airline industry recovering, says Iata trade body (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8561909.stm)

I think we are seeing or about to see a "sellers market" for ATCOs re-appear. Certainly the Middle East contracts currently on offer are pointing that way. How many ATC units can honestly say that they are fully manned and ready for an increase in traffic in the order of 5%?

On the beach

[radarman]

OTB

NATS overseas aren't looking for experienced controllers aged 30-35. LXGB has just been sent a 23 year old drama graduate straight from Hurn. Never even spoken to a pilot before! Reason? Much cheapness!

[On the beach]

LXGB. Yeah, but that's to handle 1 aircraft a day, apart from when the Tornados go down for their annual summer holiday.

The big money at the moment is in the Gulf with the likes of OMAA paying £105,000 and OTBD paying £131,000 for TWR and APR. And you won't get offers from either of them if you're a 23 year old drama graduate. Mind you, you might just graduate to be a drama queen if you go there!!!

On the beach :ok:

[man friday]

OTB,

"LXGB. Yeah, but that's to handle 1 aircraft a day, apart from when the Tornados go down for their annual summer holiday."

Please get you facts right, some days they may have to handle 2 aircraft!

[On the beach]

Oops sorry. That would be one landing and one take-off then!!

How's the :uhoh:"voice of God":uhoh: these days?

On the beach :ok:

[Tower Ranger]

OTBD? Did you mean Dubai, they aren`t paying 131K.

[On the beach]

Currently at Doha Radar the yearly Salary (even whilst under dual training) is already QR420 000 p.a.

The accommodation allowance is QR300 000 p.a. - (paid / provided by company). In total p.a. - QR720 000

QTR5.5 = £1

Just quoting from the guys in the know. If you want to compare it to the UK salaries then you need to add on 25%+ for tax, which would take the total to over £160,000.

I don't know what they are currently paying in Dubai but I'd say that Doha are setting the benchmark at the moment. Maybe trying to get extra staff in for their "new" airport, which I think opens next year.

On the beach :ok:

[eastern wiseguy]

You wouldn't get out of bed for 131k TR
:}

[Standard Noise]

For £131k TR could afford to pay me to do his job for him!

[Tower Ranger]

They only pay me what i`m worth, lol!!