New Chinese Helicopter

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

The AC313 is set to achieve its maiden flight in a few weeks: Copter set to fly for 1st time -- Shanghai Daily | ???? -- English Window to China New (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/sp/article/2010/201003/20100308/article_430477.htm)

The helicopter looks remarkably similar to the Super Frelon:

http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment/091119/6ad1495f4c.jpg

[moscovite]

I am sure you know that China produce Frelon under licence from Eurocopter (called Changhe Z8) so if they make new helicopter it will be copy of Frelon.

http://images3.jetphotos.net/img/1/4/4/7/69517_1250086744_tb.jpg

However, it would be much better if China buy Mi17 from Russia.

[heli1]

Correction Muscovite.....the Chinese rebuild Super Frelons as they have never been able to master the complex transmission and dynamics to manufacture new aircraft.They bought 13 from Aerospataile plus some spares .
It will be interesting to see how the new version is powered .

[Hell Man]

Heli1 - You hit the nail on the head.

As I understand it this project is only possible because of advances in Chinese engine technology and this blog begins by admitting the same: http://peterpeng210.********.com/2009/12/chinese-homegrown-medium-lift.html

HM

[Lt.Fubar]

However, it would be much better if China buy Mi17 from Russia.
Like that one?
http://www.rotaryaction.com/images/beastw1.jpg

:}

Apparently Hollywood was all out of Pumas when they made The Beast of War ;)

[turboshaft]

I'd be surprised if it was powered by indigenous donks, at least for the foreseeable future. Engine technology has proven a problematic area for China (the protracted WS-10 being a case in point) and turboshafts are no exception.

I suspect the initial aircraft will be powered by PT6B-67s 'reclaimed' from Z-8Fs, with later aircraft powered either by the Ardiden 3 - recently selected for the Z-15 - or an 'indigenous' engine ("WZ-9") based on the TV3-117VMA/VK2500.

[ARRAKIS]

China has already a Mi-17 assembly line.
The new bird reminds me a lot the Mi-38 - especially the front of the helicopter.

Arrakis

[dangermouse]

Filmed by Golan Globus in the Negev desert

hence the vehicles are ex IDF as are the helos!!

DM

[moscovite]

Dear Mr Lt. Fubar

This is very funny foto. Of course you know we are not flying this in Russia. This pictur is because American film budget small.

Dear Mr Arrakis

I suggest China to keep buying Mi17 - better than Frelon. Perhaps know that company making new Chinese helicopter [Avicopter] is talking to us (Mil factory) about co-production in China for Mi17 which much better idea.

This AC313 maybe looking like Mi38 but Mi38 is new technology helicopter and is far in front of AC313 but we are not prepared to enter co-production of this helicopter in China at this time. But Mi17 serve China requrment very well.

[Fareastdriver]

The clue is in the rotor.. All Russian and most European designed helicopters have the rotor turning clockwise looking from the top. Americans have them turning anti-clockwise. The Super Frelon, even though it was designed by Sud Aviation in France uses the S64 transmission and rotor drive. I remember the first batch of them sitting at Marignan awaiting US govenment approval for their export.
The three view illustration looks pretty official, therefore should be correct, so the chances are that is is a development or redesign of the Z8.

Why do the rotors go different ways. The same reason why European piston engines propellers predominately turn clockwise viewed from the front, Americans, anti-clockwise.

All engines turn the same way (clockwise) but the Europeans left the engine in the normal position and mounted the propeller on the front of the crankshaft. The Americans, on the other hand mounted their propeller on the power take off position on the rear of the crankshaft in the same way as clutches and gearboxes. The result is that the engine it is mounted back-to-front in European eyes and the propellor goes the wrong way.

When the first helicopters were designed their rotors went, naturally, the same way as their predecessors propellers.

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

Feastdriver: This is very interesting. Are you saying that the Frelon has a Sikorsky heritage?

Turbohaft/Heli1: Why do you think China struggles so much with turbine/dynamic systems technology. Theoretically, China is now the world's leading manufacturing nation (and its increasing). Where are they failing where the likes of Kawasaki, Fuji and numerous other Japanese firms have succeeded in aviation?

[widgeon]

China excels in mass produced items generally low tech/ low cost . I saw the second EC120 fuselage and the finish was very poor , large gaps and mismatches lousy rivetting . The last place i worked sourced gears from a company in China and the initial rejection rate was appalling .
I have no doubt that within 10 years they will be producing quality gas turbines

[Lt.Fubar]

This is very funny foto. Of course you know we are not flying this in Russia. This pictur is because American film budget small.Of course. I just couldn't help myself when you wrote about both, the Mi-17 and Frelon ;)

It wasn't really because of the budget, as at the time the movie was made (1988) there were no eastern block helicopters available for the western cinematography - so in all movies, the role of eastern machines were played by French helicopters - mostly Pumas, and Gazelle (most notably in Rambo III and Red Dawn). Even in the last two decades it is rare to see one in movie - right now I remember three such films - "Sniper II" had Mi-2, so did the "Spy Game", and "Behind Enemy Lines" had Mi-8... for some odd reason with French special forces inside. Can't remember any western movies with real Hind in it though, the closest ones were the CGI ones in "Wilson's War"... can't beat "9 Рота" on that one.

Didn't know the "Beast of War" was made in Israel... that explains a lot.

About the Chinese helicopter - you, know, someone once said that imitation is the highest form of flattery :E

[Fareastdriver]

Are you saying that the Frelon has a Sikorsky heritage?

The Frelon was the first large helicopter that the French had designed. They used the Turmo gas turbine that was initialy designed to power railway trains. They had, then, not got the wherewithall to design the gearboxs and rotor system to that scale so they bought the rotor system from Sikorsky and Fiat did the gearboxs.

Could have been a successful civil aircraft apart from the noise, appalling fuel consumption and poor cruising speed.

[ARRAKIS]

I suggest China to keep buying Mi17 - better than Frelon. Perhaps know that company making new Chinese helicopter [Avicopter] is talking to us (Mil factory) about co-production in China for Mi17 which much better idea.


China already has a Mi-8/17 assembly line. They want a second one?

Arrakis

[turboshaft]

Why do you think China struggles so much with turbine/dynamic systems technology.

Conventional wisdom is that engine design remains something of a craft, due to the fundamental physics involved, and is difficult to break into without learning the hard way what works and what doesn't. While there are dozens of companies worldwide undertaking component design/supply and local assembly these days, few have made a success of breaking into the whole engine business, Williams perhaps being the last company to make it (with the benefit of experience gained through the production of several thousand cruise missile engines).

That's not to say that China won't get there, but it's not as straightforward as copying an airframe or an avionics board.

[jim63]

http://www.aviationnews.eu/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/AC313.jpg
A giant domestic helicopter for civil use with a maximum take-off load of 13.8 tons, landed safely after its live-televised debut in Jingdezhen city, east China’s Jiangxi province Thursday morning.The giant helicopter was designed and produced by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, a state-own enterprise which provides advanced aviation weaponry to the country’s military forces.The latest product, with a maximum voyage of 900 kilometers (559 miles) and a boarding capacity of 27 passengers, is hailed as a breakthrough in domestic aviation technology which could be employed in earthquake relief.

[Fareastdriver]

Covered a week or so ago.http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/408109-new-chinese-helicopter.html

At least the picture confirms the rotor turning anti-clockwise from above so the rotor and transmission is still Sikorsky based from the Super Frelon.

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

This is a very interesting photo of the AC313 - the nose is more blunt than the drawings.

One wonders whether this will be a cost effective aircraft - not that this will make much difference; being Chinese manufactured it will doubtless be obligatory for government departments to procure this product and, given China's growing revenues, operating costs probably won't be the bottom line.

Nevertheless - well done to China for this manufacturing breakthrough.

Does anyone know whether Eurocopter assisted AIC behind the scenes?

[sycamore]

Looks a lot like an S-64 with Eastern clothes..

[212man]

Are you saying that the Frelon has a Sikorsky heritage?

It's not the only Sikorsky 'heritage' in an AS/SA machine - the AP Hydraulic pack For the AS332 is manufactured under licence too.

[Fareastdriver]

being Chinese manufactured it will doubtless be obligatory for government departments to procure this product

One of the first Eurocopter 225s to arrive in China was for a government department. Their VIP flight in Beijing uses AS 332Ls. The fact that the Chinese airline industry is virtually all western designed aircraft shows that the Chinese aviation industry gets no favours.

[moscovite]

Your US government create bad relation with China this week over helicopter engines China Says U.S. Wouldn?t Sell Helicopter Parts Needed in Relief - BusinessWeek (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-21/china-says-u-s-wouldn-t-sell-helicopter-parts-needed-in-relief.html)

[Yellow & Blue Baron]

The EC 225 is probably more suitable and has a smart interior for VIP ops (below) but they may go for the AC313 in the future:

http://www.skycontrol.net/UserFiles/Image/Helicopters_img/200604/200604eurocopter_ec225VIP.jpg

FED: Do you think China will still buy as many western aircraft once the Comac C919 is available?

[Hell Man]

The Comac 919 is still a way off from being operational but, it will almost certainly put a dent in western aircraft sales - that was the concept behind its production .. for China to become less reliant on Western technology:

http://images.airliners.de/nachrichten/2009/9/C919_b715c9f3536347236c46f61d2e310b80_470_317.jpg

Regarding the US State Department approval for China's request for aero engines ... yes, we probably f***ed up there.

The Russians and French seem to be handling Chinese aero industry cooperation (manufacturing wise) better than anyone else at present.

[Hilife]

Your US government create bad relation with China this week over helicopter engines China Says U.S. Wouldn’t Sell Helicopter Parts Needed in Relief - BusinessWeek

This wouldn’t be the same China that illegally diverted P&WC PT6C-67C engines destined for installation in civil production AB139’s and installed them into its Z10 military helicopters without telling anyone……oops, sorry!

As is clearly the case, China sets the standard for us all regarding human rights, so I’m surprised to hear that those dastardly Americans (and other NATO countries, well some anyway) should have the temerity to hold off on shipping technology that could be used for military purposes to Beijing.

I mean, why wouldn’t you want China to be a military superpower. Think of the benefits for all those in the Pacific, Indochina and Australasian territories, not to mention the rest of us here in the west? :rolleyes:

Sadly, there are those amongst us with less ethical trading standards that only see today’s profit’s and not ethics and tomorrows consequences as reason for circumventing the embargo set up after the Tiananmen square demonstrations.

[Hell Man]

Yeah, guess you're right Hilife.

[heli1]

...amd which helicopters used for disaster relief in China that should have US engines can use Russian engines instead ?The only Chinese operated helicopter using US engines is the S-70 Black Hawk and I bet they would just to love to get their hands on a few dozen T700s !