Holding I/B EGLL

[WindSheer]

Here goes.

Could someone kindly explain the reason for daily holds for a/c i/b LHR?
I know this has been covered before in varying topics, but given the commercial pressure these days (and governmental pressure) to save money and energy, it blows my mind to see the amount of holding that goes on at all times of day around the London area.

Heathrow only has so many slots....which are obviously all taken, and I fully appreciate that an a/c delayed on the ground is going to occupy a stand and force a hold for someone. But why oh why oh why are we always seeing a/c holding at all times of day??
Surely with todays technology departure slots can be allocated to all short all flights i/b LHR to vastly reduce this ridiculous amount of holding.

It just totally winds me up, and I would love to see the figures of the fuel that is burned unnecessarily over London each year.

:ugh:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Holding is employed at just about every major airport, worldwide, so stop losing sleep! In the USA delaying tactics sometimes avoid actual holding but speed reduction often takes place a long way out. In Europe there is considerably less airspace to play with so holding patterns are employed. Some pilots like them, others do not, but they serve their purpose.

I dealt with Heathrow Traffic from 1972 and we used to hold in those days, even though the daily movements were considerably less than today. Problem is that many flyers - especially business men - wish to arrive in the morning and depart in the evening. Even then, there are times during the day when there is no holding. As I write this, traffic is coming straight off the stacks at high speed with no delay into Heathrow but come this evening things will be somewhat different.

[WindSheer]

Good reply.

I guess its purely down to rwy capacity then?
If so, as I previously mentioned, why isn't technology being used to its maximum to provide a constant flow?
I.e:

"Speedbird xxx please arrive at Biggin at 1354"......(this information could be supplied 100's of miles out)
"American xxx arrive at Compton at 1355"

All very basically put I know, but you get my idea?

My employer put's posters up everywher about turning a bloody printer off for the night, yet overhead there could be numerous heavies circling for the commercial gain of Heathrow!! :mad:

Edited to include that the :mad: is not guided towards your reply !! :ok:

[BOAC]

Holding is employed at just about every major airport, worldwide, so stop losing sleep! - must be new, that! I held no more than twice each at most 'major' European airports in 16 years (apart from Madrid where I held 3 times because I was not Spanish.......................:)) whereas at LHR I held EVERY time:ugh:

Never flew to 'majors' in the USA/Africa/India/Australia so cannot comment there - but never held at Moscow either.

[Musket90]

The runway capacity for each season is declared by Airport Co-ordination (ACL) after consultation with all stakeholders. The number of slots allocated at peak times takes into account an average delay figure, which I think may be 20 mins at EGLL. The term "average" could mean that sometimes delay is more than the agreed figure or sometimes less. The term "delay" I believe means in the case of departures the waiting time at runway holding point, in the case of arrivals holding in the stack.

Each day is different regarding delays because of many different circumstances, eg weather, go-arounds, switching runway direction, aircraft emergencies, ATC issues outside UK etc.

Allocated runway slot times are closely monitored by ACL and airlines which consistently abuse their runway slot times for no good reason could be the subject of sanctions imposed.

ACL website has lots of info on this.

[galaxy flyer]

Show up most nights at Mumbai at about 9 pm and see the holds, aimless vectors, etc. I have spent 40 minutes wandering around; another time coming from Bangalore, I was told to do a 360. I asked coming out of the turn to begin holding at present position. An hour later, I was advised to leave the hold, Mumbai was ready to accept us. Then I got the vectors to nowhere for 30 minutes. So, LHR ain't so bad!

GF

[lion-g]

From my humble experience,

Holding at Europe stations is much much better than holding over the indian continent. The euro controllers are very professional and they are very systematic in managing traffic. It not too difficult to anticipate and plan the arrival in europe.

I had once in VABB, when we arrived at TMA were told the we are number 25 in landing!! After holding for more than an hour, was vectored all over the TMA due weather and landed with just minimum fuel. Felt so lucky that we were tankering that night !!
Furthermore, I had this strange feeling that the local carriers are given priorities over other carriers. Just my personal experience, no facts to support the above statment. When we over fly enroute from Europe back to South East Asia, was told to descend so that their local carrier can occupy the level we were at !! Hmmm....... :rolleyes:

[galaxy flyer]

lion-g

Did you consider refusing the clearance? I think I was number 25 or 26 that night in VABB. The funny part was as we came out of the 360, I asked what routing they wanted, "Please hold where you are", was the answer, no hold instructions, no defined pattern, just stay there. It was about 20 minutes before I teased something resembling a EFC, "you are number 25 and 2 and half minutes per plane". He could have said, "do the math, Yank."

GF

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Windsheer... Your bad language is NOT appreciated. If you cannot have a sensible discussion without resorting to gutter language perhaps you'd best go somewhere else.

However, your suggestion of aircraft being told to arrive over a certain point at a certain time would work at a small airfield with hardly any movements but Heathrow is extremely busy, operating at maximum runway capacity, and many aircraft arrive all at once. There are many variables.... perhaps an aircraft may be delayede on departure so it would arrive late.... or maybe there's a strong tailwind so it arrives early.

Heathrow does NOT invite everyone to arrive together. It's determined by the demand to airlines who try to do what their passengers want. I've already said that at certain times it can be quiet with no holding but how do you solve the problem of 50 aircraft per hour wanting to arrive??

BOAC.. you were dead lucky. Stories I've heard from BA pilots about Moscow suggested the opposite! I used to work in Africa in ther 60s and we used to hold aircraft then.. Most of the day we did zilch but come morning and evening rush hour it went bananas.

[BOAC]

Lucky maybe - I have not been to M for several years, but looking at the major European hubs, holding is far less than at LHR. Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, Brussels, Copenhagen, Zurich, Geneva, Rome etc - all manage with only occasional holds and a touch of 'speed control' and 'routing'. As I said, Madrid is the only one where I have been 'held' more than at others and that has tended to be when they are on southerlies and with a lot of 'national' traffic.

We have had this query on LHR holding on PPR a few times before and inbound traffic does spend a significant amount of time and fuel holding.

[machone]

Guys take it easy I quite regularly get reduce min clean speed at fl 200+ you are number three. They want 3 minutes between arrivals. So ATc is ATC we don't like it but we can't do without it.

[WindSheer]

HD

My use of 'gutter' language was in no way implied towards you, just my way of expression my emotion towards a dated system.
Your useage of your 'NOT's' however are directed towards me and I deem them offensive.....we are all entitled to our opinions!

Back to the plot, what I am simply trying to get across is this:

IN THE VERY SIMPLEST OF TERMS.......Heathrow can land x number of planes every hour, rush hour or no rush hour, so why aren't x number of planes scheduled at all times to prevent these holds?
If 30 planes can be landed per hour, and 40 pitch up between 0600 and 0700 that means everything i/b is holding for the next few hours. Just hold them at their origin 30 mins longer???

A quick count on flightradar.com has given me 13 a/c currently in 'the stack' at 1545 on a Saturday afternoon......:confused:

I just don't understand why this occurs.....???

[TopBunk]

OK, you want some personal facts for holding into LHR - extracted from my logbooks since 1994 (when I first started recording holding times)!

Forgive the formatting, but the columns are Year; #Approaches; Total Holding (mins); Max Hold; Ave hold (mins)

1994 133 689 34 5.18
1995 57 239 29 4.19
1997 19 41 15 2.16
1998 26 83 20 3.19
1999 25 42 12 0.59
2000 24 71 10 2.96
2001 71 387 39 5.45
2002 173 897 27 5.19
2003 189 1176 40 6.22
2004 186 952 26 5.12
2005 165 733 40 4.44
2006 46 141 16 3.06
2007 43 145 15 3.37
2008 45 193 21 4.29
2009 32 107 17 3.34

1994-5 = shorthaul
1997-part 2001 = longhaul
part 2001-2005 = shorthaul
2006-2009 = longhaul

Other places where holds are not uncommon are LGW, ZRH, FRA, BCN, MAN, JFK, SFO, DEL, BOM.