DGCA Expat Phase-Out

[jimmygill]

Dear Friends,

I am starting this thread to invite inputs from pilots from India on the DGCA Deadline on Expat phaseout. We all know that DGCA had extended the Expat phaseout deadlines and how it is going to impact the career progression and first officer hiring in coming years.

Here I propose start an Right to Information campaign by we which we will demand information from Ministry of Civil Aviation on the expat-phaseout plans.

I will like you all to suggest queries to be put in the RTI request.

First few queries are


1. Statistics of FATAs issued by DGCA in tabular format for past Three years

Year, Month, Operator, FATA-Number, Original Country, Nationality, Date and Validity


2. Copy of orders requiring expat phaseout

3. Copy of the phase-out plans submitted by airlines/operators

4. Copy of the DGCAs audit of these phase-out plans if any

5. Copy of the reasons cited for postponing the phase-out deadlines

6. ...

Please suggest other ministeries/authorities where a pertinent RTI Application can be filed, like the ministry issuing work VISA etc..

You can put forward any other issue you think may have unjustifiably affected your employment or career prospetcs.


Cheers All

[rdr]

jimmy gill,
this is an international pilots forum where pilots share information to help and advance the profession and careers of one another, irrespective of ones nationality.
this is not an Indian pilots forum to press for political reform so one can cater to his own advancment at the expense of others.

it looks like you are getting desperate to fly a widebody.

[fullforward]

Kudos!...well said.

I don't want to disappoint jimmy but, with the reversal of the downward trend on Indian air transport industry, the need of experienced professionals will return to pre 2008 levels.
And so the need of expats. Of course the locals will have their careers moving forward, but keep in mind that it takes an average 20 years to mature a pilot from flying school into a widebody captain.

[jimmygill]

@ rdr
I understand your point of view. Requesting information is not a political action, information and transparency is good for all, local as well expats. Besides everyone has a right to political action. I just don't want to do it under-ground, after all its a legitimate action.

For your kind information expats are not just flying the wide-bodies, but are also recruited as flight instructors across India.

As for the desperation, I am happy flying a PA-18. On lighter side, "you might have said this is a rumor network so why are you interested in knowing the truth"

@ fullforward

Only when we receive information on the hired expats would we be able to know the average experience of the expats hired and compare it with the 20 years as you say.

If nothing else happens, we will have the official information to discuss in the forum.


Thanks for the Idea, I guess I should include the Total Hours and Hours on Type also on the list.



Thanks both for the input.

[shanx]

It's a myth or a fantasy to think that all expats working in India are extremely skilled or have decades of experience with 10,000+ hours.

There are a lot of expats working in India with no-so-high total time and hardly any jet time. They have paid commission to several agencies to get the job.
Big racket.

[flyjet787]

Guys I really don't think this is going to help. The expats are here to stay and they are not leaving anytime soon. Lets just face it... and don't believe anything which the DGCA or the MOCA says regarding the phase out plans for the expats. And I am also pretty sure the airlines also would prefer to pay lower salaries and have desi pilots than pay twice the salary and hire expats. There is a sever shortage of Capts. and we all know that there are'nt enough indian capts so airlines have to hire expats.

And another vey important point is that not all ATPL holders will be fit/qualify to fly as captains. And you can not push the ailines/DGCA to pass the Indian ATPL holder to replace the expats captains even if they are not good enough. Its the safety of the people thats more important than providing employment to the unemplyed pilots.

I am also an unemployed Indian CPL holder like many of you guys. Even I have been through all the miserable things which some of you might have experienced, but I think accepting the facts is the best thing to do rather than living in denial.

Its going to be a looong wait.....lets accept it..

[jimmygill]

Guys I really don't think this is going to help. The expats are here to stay and they are not leaving anytime soon. Lets just face it... and don't believe anything which the DGCA or the MOCA says regarding the phase out plans for the expats. And I am also pretty sure the airlines also would prefer to pay lower salaries and have desi pilots than pay twice the salary and hire expats. There is a sever shortage of Capts. and we all know that there are'nt enough indian capts so airlines have to hire expats.

And another vey important point is that not all ATPL holders will be fit/qualify to fly as captains. And you can not push the ailines/DGCA to pass the Indian ATPL holder to replace the expats captains even if they are not good enough. Its the safety of the people thats more important than providing employment to the unemplyed pilots.

I am also an unemployed Indian CPL holder like many of you guys. Even I have been through all the miserable things which some of you might have experienced, but I think accepting the facts is the best thing to do rather than living in denial.

Its going to be a looong wait.....lets accept it..


If you go to eaglejet pay them around 40k usd you will get 500 hrs first officer time on A320, and will soon be legally ready to fly in India as expat. What is eaglejet requirement, 250 hrs + 40k USD.

Consider this: Before flying the eagle jet you will just as unsafe as the 250 hrs wizards here.You will NOT be flying that A320 as first officer in am empty aircraft, there will be people on-board and on ground in the harms way.

By the way what harm is there in doing proper research? I am just proposing that we use our rights instead of being fatalistic and resignatory about the recession/long-wait argument.

Remember if a young bird doesn't use its wings, somebody is going to clip them. We have all kinds of pressure groups in the industry why not have one group for ourself.

I will quote without telling the origin, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

Think of something which can help you make proper decision, or help you know about the industry and we will put that in the Application.

Thanks for your inputs anyway.

[shanx]

@flyjet787
There is a sever shortage of Capts. and we all know that there are'nt enough indian capts so airlines have to hire expats.

And another vey important point is that not all ATPL holders will be fit/qualify to fly as captains. And you can not push the ailines/DGCA to pass the Indian ATPL holder to replace the expats captains even if they are not good enough. Its the safety of the people thats more important than providing employment to the unemplyed pilots.you're saying "we all know" that there are'nt enough Indian Captains ...
Seriously, I do not know whether there are sufficiently qualified Indian national pilots to replace expats. and that is the reason why we have an RTI system to find out some information.
Now, how YOU and ALL others know that there are'nt enough Indian national pilots qualified enough to replace expats in all the airlines, charters, flying clubs and corporates in India .. Im quite amazed and impressed !
Have you done a comprehensive study of the data of all the airlines, corporates, flying schools etc in India and done a comparison of the no. of hours, experience, ratings, past history of ALL the employees (nationals and expats) that you have miraculously come to this conclusion (with all others) ?
Or is it that you have resigned to this "fact" after reading some newspaper articles and other drivel on some internet site ? (The same newspapers and websites which promised you a grand and glamourous career a couple of years back maybe ?)

Secondly, your sentence ...
Its the safety of the people thats more important than providing employment to the unemplyed pilots.At the risk of sounding rude, that is purely a naive view. It shows your gross ignorance of how the industry works in this country.
Trust me, Im speaking with facts. Inputs from Indian national commanders with TRI/TRE qualifications in the national carieer and in other private airlines in India.
If safety is INDEED paramount to all the airlines and the Civil Aviation Ministry or the Govt. of India, then almost ALL the rookie pilots who are purely boom-time beneficiaries should be shown the door and replaced by expat FOs with 1000s of hours on multi engine pistons/turbo props etc.
There are low time pilots flying as FOs in India right now who can not track radials inbound or outbound for $hit, leave alone exhibit basic airmanship and other mandatory qualities in the cockpit.
We have the "Shahrukh-Khans" and "John Abrahams" in the cockpit who prefer to spend time chatting up with cabin crew during flights than do other important stuff.
CRM is just three letters of the english language for a lot of pilots and they prefer their own ad-hoc SOPs rather than follow company/DGCA/ICAO SOPs.
A few prominent ministers and DGCA officers are on the "unofficial" payrolls of some of the airlines.
Crew busting their FDTL's is pretty common (wont name anyone or any airline here for good reasons).
Again ... this is not coming from me, but from Indian and expat pilots who have several thousands of Jet Command time with TRI/TRE qualifications.

Recruitment of expats to an extent, is justified. But, most of the airlines are recruiting expats and offering them much higher salaries than Indian national pilots SIMPLY BECAUSE IT MAKES ECONOMIC SENSE. It has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with basic economics, my friend.
It would cost a lot of money and effort to upgrade an FO to Command on the same aircraft or as FO on a different aircraft (wide body for example).

Also, jimmygill has not attacked expats, or shown any malicious intent towards them at all. There is nothing wrong in asking for inputs or ideas from pilots for the same.
And this is not a movement or rebellion or anything for the cause of unemployed CPL holders. He has clearly mentioned that he is requesting inputs from ALL PILOTS in India.

Safety is of NIL concern to the airlines or even the Government in India, just like almost everything else.
Understand and accept THIS reality first.

[jimmygill]

@flyjet787

Please visit following for expat first officer requirement with Indigo.

Pilot training programs from Independent Contract Pilot aviation school (http://www.icpilot.com/job_placement.php)

Do you still want to wait?

[flyjet787]

@jimmygill:
In my previous post I was only talking about expat captains and not F/o's. There is this huge misconception among the unemplyed CPL holders (like you and me) that every Indian F/o holding an ATPL (with about 1500-2000hrs) should be made captain to replace the expat captain and then he/she can take the F/o's place. What I am saying is that this is not really practical and it does compromise safety of the aircraft and people.

I am not trying to offend you or say what you are doing is wrong.
I really appreciate what you are trying to do and you will always have my support.

And about the Indigo F/o's requirments. Din't they come out with an advertisement with similar requirments for Indian pilots aswell.

@shanx:

"Now, how YOU and ALL others know that there are'nt enough Indian national pilots qualified enough to replace expats in all the airlines, charters, flying clubs and corporates in India .. Im quite amazed and impressed !"

So are you saying there are infact enough Indian National Captains (who are qualified/fit to fly on the LHS) to replace all the expats in the airlines, charters etc.?

"Have you done a comprehensive study of the data of all the airlines, corporates, flying schools etc in India and done a comparison of the no. of hours, experience, ratings, past history of ALL the employees (nationals and expats) that you have miraculously come to this conclusion (with all others)"

I would love to hear about your comprehensive study of all the data that you have mentioned above.

I think I din't chose the right words in my last post. All I was trying to say was that the airlines must not be forced to replace the Expat Capts. with Indian Capts. even if they are not good enough for the job. The airlines shoud not be forced to make every Indian ATPL holder with 1500 hrs a Capt. As you mentioned we already have the Shahrukhs and Rajnikants who are all BOOM-BENEFICIARIES on the RHS. Would you really want these BOOM-BENEFICIARIES WITH 1500-2000 HRS to be flying on the LHS as well.

Again, I am only expressing my views about replacing experienced/Expat Capts. with relatively Inexperienced fresh Indian Capts.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not againt Indian pilots replacing the expats and I am definetly against having Expat F/o's . I just feel that it should be done in well mannered and thoughtful process with a certain degree of importance to safety as well.

Anyways I really don't want to prolong this argument about who is right and who is wrong. I was just expressing my views.

I will try to contribute with any useful inputs than might help you guys with the RTI.

I have a question for you guys. The DGCA has asked the airlines to phase out expats...does this also apply to the Corprates?

[jimmygill]

@flyjet787

From the CARs on FATA
as co-pilot, the flight crew should have:-
i) Minimum 100 hours on type as P2, or
ii) Minimum 500 hours total on multi-engine, or
iii) Minimum 1000 hours total flying experience

as PIC, the flight crew should have a:-
i) Minimum PIC flying experience – 2000Hrs
ii) Minimum PIC on type – 100 hrs with current IR / LR check.

What magical safety do above minimums guarantee?

If you think that we don't have pilots with 2000 hrs time on airliners with ATPLs, you need to support it with some number.

[shanx]

@Flyjet787

To answer your question, No .. I have not done any study on the data related to flight crew employed in airlines in India.
Which is why I have not said anywhere that all expats should be asked to leave and replaced by Indian captains or Indian senior F/Os.
However, I do know a lot of pilots flying for airlines in India who claim that they are not getting their due in terms of career progression for several reasons, whilst at the same time we have several shady outfits supplying pilots to the airlines for $$$. There's more to it than meets the eye when it comes to expat pilot recruitment and all these brokers and agencies.
Which is also one of the reasons why it would be interesting to see what kind of a response an RTI would generate.

And not just the airlines ... Im not getting desperate to fly a jet (narrow, wide or extra wide). There are expats with low hours and just an FAA CPL with CFI/CFII ratings with not more than 500-600 hours total time and are working as FIs or AFI's in Indian flying clubs.

There's no arguing here. We're just exchanging views, and I apologize if my previous post was rude and hurt/offended you.

[jimmygill]

@flyjet787

I have a very simple test using which you can come to some practical awarebess about safety..

1. If tomorrow you have an offer from Indigo to fly their Brand New A320 as a F/O with several scores of passengers behind you. Are you going to say, "Look boss I guess you should hire an expat for this safety critical job?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"


2. Suppose you selected the later choice, and after 4 years you have around 2500 hrs on A320 as F/O and you also have been working hard and got your ATPL. If the airline now comes with an offer of upgrading you to your left seat, with a 50-80% increase in take-home and reduced flight load. Will you say "Look boss I guess you should hire an expat for this safety critical job and may be I will be ready after I log 2-3000 more hours as F/O?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"


Aviation safety is not a mythical art, its a well founded science, worldwide pilot training should be quiet deficient otherwise what can explain the myths which go around in a forum heavily populated by pilots.


If you are a f/o with 1000 hrs total time, will you refuse to fly with a captain that has just 3000 hrs total time and is released just the last week for command?

[silent_scream]

Gents !

Stats Time : As date, the ATPL's being issued are of series 40xx.
Since 1 Jan 2008, there have been 626 ATPL's issued till date.

@ Jimmy, I am interested in the Number of Pilots working on FATA. Expat, Indian or Alien.
Do you think the RTI can help deliver those stats ?

Also do not forget that more Ex-Defense Pilots join Airlines as Direct entry Captains than Expats. And even this is one of the reason's for Senior Co-Pilots not being upgraded.

India is an awfully small country.

Silent.

[rdr]

what you clowns, jimmy, shanks and the others are doing, is basically telling a worldwide audience what a **** country you come from, with a **** system, and airlines with unqualified **** pilots.
but even more so, how immature and indisciplined you can be, just because you think your way is the right way to widebody nirvana.

the good ones, and there are many excellent pilots in India, dont need to resolve to the usual verbal convulsions of a minority.
thank god there are expats to stop people like you ever seeing the inside of an airliner.

if you want to change the system, go into politics. this is not the place to wash your dirty linen.

[Capt Apache]

Expats.....Indians.....Locals....hmmm....Expats.....Progress ion....Hmm....Expats

Hmm.....Expats.....Expats.....Progression......Expats......N O lOCALS....

MONEY....HMMM...TOO MUCH....NARROWBODY....WIDEBODY....HMMM.....

WIDEBODY! WIDEBODY! WIDEBODY!


If only you guyz realised that there are other issues (and I mean serious issues...LIKE ASK A POOR CHAP TRYIN TO CONVERT HIS LICENSE...ITS A NIGHTMARE!) in aviation in India.....Aviation here would not be such an unpleasurable experience(WHICH IT IS...NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU DENY IT)

[jimmygill]

what you clowns, jimmy, shanks and the others are doing, is basically telling a worldwide audience what a **** country you come from, with a **** system, and airlines with unqualified **** pilots.

Thanks for the compliments, I don't know about shanks but I am glad you could derive some entertainment out of this. As regards to the ****ty country I come from, it is not our efforts which are displaying **** but your own creativity which is so hooked to finding **** every where.

Basically speaking our efforts are to hold a government accountable for the promises made to its citizens. But no Sir, the kind of imagination you possess will not let you think of the positive side.

Democracies work openly, what happens in an open democracy is visible everywhere to a sensitive eye. Whether you believe it or not the the first two expat phase-out deadlines were a result of such a democratic process.


but even more so, how immature and indisciplined you can be, just because you think your way is the right way to widebody nirvana.


Talking of maturity, your first sentence indicates that your maturity level may not be significantly different from what you suppose jimmy's and shanks' is.

Seeing the tone and tenor of your reply I am glad that at least you could correctly spell 'indisciplined'.


the good ones, and there are many excellent pilots in India, dont need to resolve to the usual verbal convulsions of a minority.

That what sounds like hurting your interest is bad and rest is good.


thank god there are expats to stop people like you ever seeing the inside of an airliner.


Don't thank God, thank the inaction of masses.


if you want to change the system, go into politics. this is not the place to wash your dirty linen.

If there is a best place to wash the dirty linen, its right in front of the people who got the linen dirty in first place and the people who let the linen go dirty.

For what you know, I may already be in politics and inside an airliner as well. If one doesn't want to fall flat on face, one must at least know the limits to one's knowledge before arraying in comments.

[jimmygill]

If only you guyz realised that there are other issues (and I mean serious issues...LIKE ASK A POOR CHAP TRYIN TO CONVERT HIS LICENSE...ITS A NIGHTMARE!) in aviation in India.....Aviation here would not be such an unpleasurable experience(WHICH IT IS...NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU DENY IT)


Thanks Captain, I understand your concern and you can be assured that to wide (not wide-body) extent I share that with you. Of course there are serious issues other than the current issue in hand, there are issues of child labor, there are issues of worker exploitation, there are issues of tribals, some of these groups have resources and time to organised and work for their emancipation others didn't have these resources, I can go on and on, and I am sure you can provide a more exhaustive list too.
But tackling these issues is not by means of making a priority list and dedicating all the resources to the top item on the list. If an army of ants have to tackle an elephant, its futile for them to decide if they should go tail first or tusk first.

[shanx]

rdr,

**** is there everywhere, inside you as well, as is very evident from your posts.
This country, as you say, may be full of ****, with ****ty airlines etc. but it is in this country where a lot of pilots with low time have attained the "wide body nirvana" as you say, in less than 4 years of being in an airline.
The jealousy reeks in your posts. You would have probably lived like a pauper trying to build time on a single engine, beating away desperately at every possible advertisement for piston or turbo prop RHS pilots etc all the while living on a burger flipping salary.

Dont simply bash "unemployed 200 hour wannabes", without knowing their background, financial status or where they come from, unless of course you're the typical retard who always ends up with his foot in his mouth everytime.

but even more so, how immature and indisciplined you can be, just because you think your way is the right way to widebody nirvana.This does'nt really warrant any reply or retort .. anyway it is evident you're not getting enough of "it" at night or in your free time and you're bored and tired of using your hand all the time ! :ok:

[bewildered]

Total number of hours just indicate experience quantitatively but I guess quality is more important in theend ..... so all this discussion that pilot A is better because of this much number of hours of experience is all nto very much justified...
Just a thought .....

[jimmygill]

Total number of hours just indicate experience quantitatively but I guess quality is more important in theend ..... so all this discussion that pilot A is better because of this much number of hours of experience is all nto very much justified...
Just a thought .....


Sure, there is a difference between having 30 years of experience and having one year of experience 30 times over. Unfortunately the thread was not supposed to go into that direction. The particular and curious aim was already highlighted in the starting post.

[rdr]

i suppose a clot like you SHANX cannot understand English.
maybe, take some English lessons and go read my post again.

[shanx]

rdr,

likewise, you JERK.

P.S I've learnt enough English to earn a high school certificate, a college degree, and a pilot licence from an English speaking country.
Beyond this, I don't really feel the need to further hone my skills in a foreign language, .. and definitely not to try and interpret posts in an anonymous forum written by insecure TURDS like you. :ok:
Adios !

[soaring.high]

@rdr,

what a **** country you come from, with a **** system, and airlines with unqualified **** pilots.


Now this is a usage of offending language to its maximum.You are a pilot (I assume a senior pilot).Can not you try to convey your message using a language which can fall in to the catagory of "socially acceptable"? I feel personally offended because of the S@@@ word you used for my country.


i suppose a clot like you SHANX cannot understand English.
maybe, take some English lessons and go read my post again

Those two lines quoted above tell the whole story about who needs a language lesson and who does not.
I make a kind request that every body should behave them selves and be a little careful about using the right kind of language (socially acceptable) while typing a post (Be it Indian pilot or Expat,Senior Pilot or Juior.) Do not take advantage if your anonymity please.

[Togue]

jimmygill for me is a troublemaker, low time pilot with a bad attitude who will change his mind after a couple of years. He has to grow up and be a man. Accept your country's reality and forget about trying to stand out at others cost.
What will you do if you get an airline job and after one or two years the indian aviation goes down? Will you try to get a job abroad? What would you think if a moron in Africa or UAE starts a thread like yours?

[jimmygill]

jimmygill for me is a troublemaker, low time pilot with a bad attitude who will change his mind after a couple of years.

I will take that compliment too. Except for the 'bad attitude' and 'low time" part, which you have to argue out, that is if you have faculties enough to argue.


He has to grow up and be a man. Accept your country's reality and forget about trying to stand out at others cost.


His country's reality cannot be described without including him. He is not trying to stand out at others but rather stand out for others (that includes him also). Your provincial perception is hindering you from seeing the reality of the post. I will never like to grow to be a man what you think a man ought be. I think even chickens are better than the men who don't stand up. At least the chicken doesn't feel insecure about a loss of job.



What will you do if you get an airline job and after one or two years the indian aviation goes down? Will you try to get a job abroad? What would you think if a moron in Africa or UAE starts a thread like yours?


Well, for starters a very good friend of mine has suggested politics, and I guess even if Indian aviation sinks like stone, there still will be career opportunities in politics.

But to come to the point which you are making, what If I have to look for jobs abroad, Canada, USA, Australia, UAE, Africa, Nepal or wherever on the earth, I will go and look and if the law of that land permits me to work there I will get that job. If I find someone in Africa or UAE with same level of moronity as I have, I will first salute him, and tell him, "I respect you, at last I found a match ", I do not have any disrespect for the laws of any country and the rights which the citizens of those countries may have, and the effort which they may put it broaden those rights.

[jimmygill]

Gents !
Stats Time : As date, the ATPL's being issued are of series 40xx.
Since 1 Jan 2008, there have been 626 ATPL's issued till date.
@ Jimmy, I am interested in the Number of Pilots working on FATA. Expat, Indian or Alien.
Do you think the RTI can help deliver those stats ?
Also do not forget that more Ex-Defense Pilots join Airlines as Direct entry Captains than Expats. And even this is one of the reason's for Senior Co-Pilots not being upgraded.
India is an awfully small country.
Silent.

Thanks Silent,
Thanks for the number of new ATPL, so what do we have 626 new ATPL holders with average of one year experience after ATPL.


What we are doing is compiling information about current employment, Ideally this figure ought to come from the Employment Exchanges.

We have an act by the parliament EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGES (COMPULSORY NOTIFICATION OF VACANCIES) ACT 1959. Its old and is being overlooked by almost all organisations, because fine for non reporting of vacancy is mere 1000 Rs. In current rupees 2010 equivalent of 1959s 1000 Rs is INR 35,000.00.
The database at these exchanges is nonexistent and faulty. But we have the 2005 right to information act, that should help us.


I noted your point and will incorporate in the request, I will wait for another week before I finalise the request.

[silent_scream]

What we are doing is compiling information about current employment, Ideally this figure ought to come from the Employment Exchanges.
True. But considering DGCA used to publish it as part of the Air Transport Statistics till March 2008, I think a RTI to DGCA might also be able to reveal it.

And I like the idea of pestering the Employment Exchange. They are least expecting an RTI asking Number of Pilots employed in Scheduled, Non Sched and Private Operators.

I shall write back if I have more input in the coming week.
All the best.

PS: If the Thread were to have a different Title, it would'nt be a Battle ground.

Silent.

[privateer01]

Ban every pilot from India whos not an Indian.

We'll watch the accident rates.

[shanx]

PS: If the Thread were to have a different Title, it would'nt be a Battle ground.



True.

However, this or other threads would'nt become battle grounds if only people have the patience and more important, an open mind to read and understand what the aim and/or motive may be.

If you see almost any thread involving any brawls between experienced pilots vs local pilots (especially low time pilots or wannabes), you'll see that in almost all cases, the experienced pilots or expats resort to attacking the person and NOT the thread/subject, and remind the wannabe that he/she is a good-for-nothing unemployed sod with 200 hours.
And of course, most of them are ever willing to post in bold letters, about how we are soon going to have SMOKING HOLES IN THE GROUND without their "expertise" or "experience".

Ridiculing, chiding or belittling someone junior, younger, far-less-experienced-and-qualified is purely a manifestation of one's own frustrations and insecurity.

Just a quick reminder ... for all the so called "senior" veterans who like to bash or ridicule "unemployed jobless 200 hour wannabes" :

Please dont assume every 200 hour wannabe is a high school passout and sitting unemployed and idle. Many of these wannabes are post graduates working successfully elsewhere, are engineers, lawyers, or running their own family business and in many cases making much more money than your average airline pilot.

[privateer01]

At 200 hrs I thought I knew everything about how to fly an airplane....

Same at 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 6400 hrs etc.

Thank god I finally got enough experience to realize I'm an idiot.


Btw....My experience with folks who leave a successful career to pursue thier dream of avaiation......has been less then stellar.

I'd venture the opinion that Beech V-tails have proved.....being a brilliant doctor doesn't make you a brilliant pilot....

[rdr]

shanx, i suggest you go on a diet and lose some weight 1st.
are you really a pilot, or are you cabin crew ??

[iflytb20]

@bewildered
Total number of hours just indicate experience quantitatively but I guess quality is more important in theend ..... so all this discussion that pilot A is better because of this much number of hours of experience is all nto very much justified...
Just a thought ..... Agree with you completely sir. I always believed that it is HOW you got your hours and not how many that's important.

@privateer01
Ban every pilot from India whos not an Indian.
We'll watch the accident rates. No offence to you sir, but considering the fact that a majority of the last few incidents [involving a hull loss / serious damage] in the country had NON-India PICs, the accident rate should be worth watching.

Cheers

[privateer01]

None taken.

It would be interesting.

So many factors....

[COCOCHANEL]

shanx I agree with your previous post. The comment from rdr was really uncalled for...just ignore it....got a lot of good advice from you on pilot related topics...whatever your real name is, I don't doubt for one second that you are a pilot...trained in california from what I gathered.

[jimmygill]

@private err

At 200 hrs I thought I knew everything about how to fly an airplane....

Same at 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 6400 hrs etc.

Thank god I finally got enough experience to realize I'm an idiot.

Btw....My experience with folks who leave a successful career to pursue thier dream of avaiation......has been less then stellar.

I'd venture the opinion that Beech V-tails have proved.....being a brilliant doctor doesn't make you a brilliant pilot.


What about those who are able to realize that they are Idiot at 200 hrs. At least they will save aviation 6200 hrs of embarassment, or may be even more.
You may be at 12800 hours now and you know hardly anything about safety.


Ban every pilot from India whos not an Indian.
We'll watch the accident rates.


Think about what you are saying, and what kind of light does it throw on you, isn't it insecurity which has driven you to these lows.



@rdr

shanx, i suggest you go on a diet and lose some weight 1st.
are you really a pilot, or are you cabin crew ??


Is this all you have to offer to your colleagues, using 'cabin crew' where you would have used other expletives. How many decades in that wide-body does it take a man to fall to such disrespecting level towards people who work with him. Your mental makeup appears just like those Sharukhans, possibly with lot more grey hair.

[DesiPilot]

Jimmy,

I agree with your cause, but disagree with a lot of other things. First of all, PPRUNE is not a place to get these numbers. Perhaps, you want to hire a lawyer and file an RTI with DGCA. Of course assuming DGCA has those numbers. In DGCA those clowns do not know what the current CPL or ATPL number is forget about giving you the demographics.

Secondly, the url you posted for the expat FO is way dated. It is from 2007. As of now there are ZERO expat first officers working for IndiGo, Kingfisher, Jet Lite, Paraways, Air India EX, Indian Airlines, Blue Dart and Alliance. I am not too sure but there may be a few expat FO's in Air India and Jet, but thats on their 777 fleet.

There are no Sr FO in IndiGo or Jet Lite or JET who are not considered for command training. Kingfishers policy of upgrading only in ATRs had bit them in their behind, almost all of the ATPL holders from KF has joined IndiGo and many of them are flying as a Captain.

So in short, Jimmy, you are barking at the wrong tree. May be its time you go and knock on DGCA's door.

[privateer01]

Nope.

Not insecurity....I've already admitted to being an Idiot at times.

What we have here is an individual thats upset about Ex-pat pilots.

Right or wrong doesn't matter to me. Indian companies hire them and the indian government allows them to. It may be expat pilots he's upset about but its an Indian problem.

Often times rules, policies, and proceedures can mitigate lack of experience.

So can culture. Both company culture and national.

However, Its hard to refute you gain experience by doing.

I certainly don't stoop to attacking anyone personally.

I just suggested they ban all Expats and see what happens.

Care to venture a guess at what the outcome would be?

As far as realizing your an idiot at 200 hrs......well realizing ones ignorance is great.....however realizing what your ignorant about is another battle.

If one were to say at 200 hrs...."ok there's alot I don't know"....well fine. Thats a start.

Realizing what it is you don't know and aquiring that knowlege is a tougher battle....and one that can only be conquered by the correct experience.

[jimmygill]

What we have here is an individual thats upset about Ex-pat pilots.


Entirely not true, I belong to a piece of this earth which has been open to all world all along its history, and I have no intention to change this basic all welcoming character of this land.

But in an increasingly 'flattening-world' openness has become skewed. Most western countries because of there resources have placed protectionist policies to protect their own work forces.

Indian being a third world developing country doesn't have those measures. I am not upset with the expats, but with my government not delivering on the promises made.




Right or wrong doesn't matter to me. Indian companies hire them and the indian government allows them to. It may be expat pilots he's upset about but its an Indian problem.


Indian problem, Indian solution. If the forum is global, big deal, all ideas welcome.


Often times rules, policies, and proceedures can mitigate lack of experience.
So can culture. Both company culture and national.


Rules and policies, thats what we are trying to get.


However, Its hard to refute you gain experience by doing.
I certainly don't stoop to attacking anyone personally.


Of course its hard to refute, but what is the required minimum experience? Why is it so low?


I just suggested they ban all Expats and see what happens.
Care to venture a guess at what the outcome would be?

Thanks for clarifying this,



As far as realizing your an idiot at 200 hrs......well realizing ones ignorance is great.... however realizing what your ignorant about is another battle.

If one were to say at 200 hrs...."ok there's alot I don't know"....well fine. Thats a start.

Realizing what it is you don't know and aquiring that knowlege is a tougher battle....and one that can only be conquered by the correct experience.t

Quiet agreeable, but this world is not so open, for the 200 hrs wannabe in India that experience starts with a f/o job in an airliner, a fact of the matter. Thats what its all about, a struggle to get that chance to learn. We have great odds stacked against us. But, Cest' la vie.



But if any expat or non-expat says that expats are the knights in shining armour saving the Indian flyers with the their skills and experiences, I must disagree, because any expat who has worked here will tell you how difficult is it for them bring in a better safety culture, and a big fraction of these will also tell you that it isn't even their secondary intent.

[privateer01]

"But in an increasingly 'flattening-world' openness has become skewed. Most western countries because of there resources have placed protectionist policies to protect their own work forces."

You would seem to advocate the same policies for India.

I hence infer that you would like LESS expat pilots working in India.

The information you wished to gather would also seem to support that conclusion.

As would your references to a political solution.

I really would prefer if you'd be clear.

Do you want the Expat pilots out of India?

I rather think you'd like to see Indians in India have more opportunity.

Can't fault you for that view as its been the view of pilots probably since one of the Wrights went first.

I'd agree that the primary motivation of expat pilots are Dollar signs.

There are some perhaps that enjoy passing on knowlege or perhaps enjoy India and its culture....But honestly...they wouldn't be there if not for the money.

On another note:

I've had a few 250 hr first officer...and a couple from pilot mills....including one that paid for thier 500 hrs of jet time.

Frankly it makes you have to work about twice as hard.

How much experience should a Captain have when the First officer has 200 hrs?

[carb-heat]

well, talking to one of my colleagues on a flight yesterday i just learned that Air India started a batch of 250 hrs experience pilots for the 777!!! yup fresh out of C-152 and now RHS of a 777, he vouched for it cos his neice is one of the inductees... apparently they were selected on the 737's but on the day of ground school they were notified of the change.. now that's called a jump start on a career

[shanx]

@carb-heat

I heard something similar recently from a friend of mine in AI, but those 250 hour cadets that you talk about are not going to be F/Os soon.

Once they're finished with training, they would be released as Second Officers on long hauls for a period of time before going for further training for FO position.

Some of the Airlines like EVA, Cathay, ANA also have hired fresh 250 hours pilots and inducted them as Second Officers or Relief/Cruise FOs for long haul flights.

I could be wrong though.

[152wiseguy]

As an expat captain flying close to 100 hours almost every month here in India, I have to say that there would not be a lot of 'smoking holes in the ground' if all the expats were sent home, far from it.

More likely there would be a large number of aircraft parked and a load of otherwise gainfully employed Indian F/Os hanging around on the ground waiting for their 10 or 15 hours of flying they would get each month with the remaining captains.

This would mean that it would take much much longer for them to get the required experience to upgrade, much longer for airlines to induct new aircraft into their fleets and much longer for unemployed local pilots to get hired.

All captains both local and expat are working hard to keep the nations fleet flying and do absolutely nothing to slow down any local pilots career. We expats know we are not here forever and that as soon as there is an Indian available to replace us we will be looking for another contract.

The fact remains that every captain needs a copilot to fly with. Far from slowing down any Indians career the expats are speeding it up! This will continue to be the case until the number of experienced local pilots increases. It might take one year or two or three depending on the economic situation, airline expansion plans and so on.

At the end of the day, if you're an unemployed Indian pilot don't kid yourself that the expats are to blame for your situation, it's simply not true.

[captain-planet]

@152wiseguy
point put forward really nicely :ok:

[jimmygill]

@152wiseguy, a very good post indeed, and the arguments you give are exactly the arguments which the airliner will put forward when they want to extend the expat phase out deadlines.

Les start with these two scenarios..

A. 5 hrs flight from Delhi to Bangkok
B. 1 hr FF Simulator Session

Which one is more important from the point of view of enhancing skills for a first/officer?

I am inclined to believe that if an airline has a fleet being flown by less experienced pilots, the airline must at the same time make these pilots spend more time in training facilities. And hence must have access to more flight simulators, those who know how much these simulators cost know exactly why airlines will not want to invest in them.

When the airline hires an expat, they effectively shelve into the future the need for increased flight simulator training.

If an expat in one year of his contract can save 50 sessions on simulator, the sessions which ought have been spent in training the less experience pilots, he has saved the airliner a lot of money. 50 sessions may cost the airlines anywhere around 100-200k USD. The airlines have sound economic reasons to hire expats even at higher salaries than counter part locals.

Had the airliners chosen to train the locals and upgrading them to command they will enter a dicey situation. After the command upgrade, the newly released captain is a highly mobile and highly valuable asset. His salary must go-up else he will shift to mid-east or far-east. Having expats ensures that this will be delayed. And the salaries will stay where they are. Plus, the local pilots will have less bargaining power as they may not be able to launch any effective industrial action when a sizeable number of expats are present.

Ever wondered what could explain the 6 month notice period requirement for airline pilots in India. While the airline can fire them with just 1 months notice. This is a non-market way to restrict the mobility of pilots and curtail the attrition rates.

So having the expats provides for a long term downward pressure on salaries. The situation is not much different from IT Skill forces working in USA, had the USA government not imposed a lower limit on the salaries of expats with IT skill sets, the salaries of such locals would have gone down, and consequently less and less locals will be motivated to learn IT and hence giving rise to a shortage of IT skills in local population, which eventually will be replaced by the expats from China, India, Eastern Europe or anywhere they are.



As an expat captain flying close to 100 hours almost every month here in India, I have to say that there would not be a lot of 'smoking holes in the ground' if all the expats were sent home, far from it.


Quiet agreeable.
Safety is not in whether the PIC has 2500 hrs or 3000 hrs, its more a function of how many PICs are flying who at some point or other had reported drunk for flying and had just been given a 3 month suspension. Reporting drunk for flying is not just unprofessional but entirely stupid. Its a pointer to the pilots ground decision making (GDM), if he has showed that he cannot be trusted for a sound GDM expecting good ADM is just wishful thinking.

Safety depends on what was done to the Air-India pilot who rolled for takeoff without clearance in Bombay, or the fate of the Jet Airways check pilot who pulled the circuit breaker.

At the same time how many first officers are able to clock close to 100 hrs every month. The annual average is around varies from 600 - 800 hrs for different airlines.



More likely there would be a large number of aircraft parked and a load of otherwise gainfully employed Indian F/Os hanging around on the ground waiting for their 10 or 15 hours of flying they would get each month with the remaining captains.


The aircrafts make money for the airliner owners, a considerable fraction of the airlines in India are fully owned or are with majority stakes of individuals. These individuals will make sure that their fleet is not grounded. If they cannot utilise expats, they will spend on training the locals. Its just a matter of regulatory compliance. I can assure you the airliners will not let the aircrafts stay parked on tarmac, two of the biggest burdens for any business are 'idle capital' and 'relocating human capital'. If economic factors can cause a movement in 'human capital' across the oceans the same factor can push the 'idle aircraft' into flight. Its a just a matter of which factor is more powerful and what regulatory avenues are available.


This would mean that it would take much much longer for them to get the required experience to upgrade, much longer for airlines to induct new aircraft into their fleets and much longer for unemployed local pilots to get hired.


I have just explained above what this means instead. Required experienced can be replaced by better (costlier) training airliners will not resort to costlier training unless forced to by either the insurer or the regulator.



The fact remains that every captain needs a copilot to fly with. Far from slowing down any Indians career the expats are speeding it up! This will continue to be the case until the number of experienced local pilots increases. It might take one year or two or three depending on the economic situation, airline expansion plans and so on.

At the end of the day, if you're an unemployed Indian pilot don't kid yourself that the expats are to blame for your situation, it's simply not true.

Its true expats are not to blame for the situation, and I agree to this, it is the DGCA and the Airliners which have postponed the expat phaseout deadlines, and they are to be blamed.

But overall, I do welcome your post, only that I differ from the content, and once I have the actual statistics, we will be able to throw more light on which of our views are closer to reality, it may be that you are closer to reality, or may be I am closer to reality. But the best way to find out is to work the problem with an open mind.

[jimmygill]

@itsbrokenagain

Thanks for the advise, I do need a better armchair. I will get one soon.

[TopTup]

Privateer01 - nice post. Well written, succinct and accurate.

Jimmygill - as always interesting to read your thoughts. While I will disagree with many points, that is my opinion and does not make your point of view any less valid.

Carb-Heat - I can assure that you are some time off the mark. 185-220 hr pilots are occupying a control seat during t/o and landing in B777's at AI. They have done so for some time now. The expat FO's who were at AI all left (RAN !!!) at their first opportunity as they were placed as cruise relief to them. The 2500 to 12,500 hrs they had could not hold up to a prejudicial Cmdr.

Jimmygill, this is one issue I respectfully disagree with. Making a poor "GDM" by turning up drunk is not "unprofessional" or "stupid", it is bloody-well illegal, incomprehensibly negligent and those guilty MUST be FIRED and license suspended as a MINIMUM until they can prove that disgracefully poor "GDM" can never happen again. Not shaving or turning up to work in an untidy uniform, smoking in the cockpit, etc is "unprofessional". Turning up drunk goes waaaay beyond that.

Anyway, that's not the point of this thread. By all means remove the expats from India WHEN the local pilots can match the same level of experience, safety and skill. That does not mean that fraudulently completed simulator evaluations, fraudulently completed performance reviews, fraudulently completed route checks, etc, etc are put in place to "pretend" to fill the void. The number of pilots (Cmdrs or FO's) who either failed sim checks but were put on route checks to DXB to have that previous evaluation "hidden" was and perhaps still is unbelievable. Or when I as TRE was ORDERED to change an evaluation to keep a Cmdr on line..... (for the record, I refused and resigned not long after - see past posts).

Yes, remove all expats from Indian Aviation and force the local standard, incomprehensible corruption and low standards rise from the ashes where they lay at present. Bit please don't whine if the British government seek to remove / not renew visas for all Indian doctors from its shores, as they proposed not too long ago. In the eyes of many when I was a TRE at at AI, an FO with a CPL is "qualified" to fly a heavy jet. So too then is a 1 day medical school graduate also "qualified" to perform surgery. The have that piece of paper on the wall as do the "experienced" doctors don't they? Short sighted and naiive in the greatest of the description.

I sincerely hope, as I have always advocated, that as many national pilots as possible should be employed over expats. I for one would not like to see a compatriot of mine out of work due to labor being imported from elsewhere. BUT IF (!!!!) that labor could not offer the same level of safety and professionalism then unfortunately that is what must happen. In the mean time, the unemployed locals MUST BE shown every opportunity to be trained and tutored at the highest and most efficient level.

Is that happening? I hope those unemployed CPL holders are shown that right and opportunity, and in the mean time seek any flying job they can get and not sit at home expecting to be given a job.

[Togue]

Great post Top Tup!

:ok:

[152wiseguy]

Yes Top Tup, the opportunities are being given. In the company where I am flying at least, they are upgrading local pilots as fast as is physically possible. Over the past few months about 3-4 local pilots have been released every month as commanders and approximately the same number of expat line captains have been sent home each month.

In fact recently, as soon as a co-pilot has their atpl in their hand (sooner in some cases) they have been given a command assessment. I would say that there is nowhere in the world right now where pilots are given the responsibility of commanding an airliner as quickly as in India.

The only problem is that there is now a huge backlog of line training due to the lack of TRI/TRE qualified pilots available. More expats anyone? :E

[4runner]

You know what really amazes me about this forum? Well...A few things actually. First of all, that many of the Indians posting and those that have created the political pressure to expel expat pilots in India are low time pilots. Guys, you country is having an economic downturn just like the rest of the world. Just because you spent x number of lachs on your training does not guarantee you a job. It also takes more than six months to upgrade on heavy equipment. This is probably an insurance and common sense requirement. No one owes you anything in this world. I was going to say that "no one owes you s@#t" but I remembered how sensitive you are...But I digress. There are thousands of low time pilots sitting around without jobs. Expat pilots are helping the Indian aviation industry to develop so that you may have jobs in the future. You don't have a job now because the economy sucks and no one saw the bubble about to burst. In a few years everyone will be scrambling to hire pilots again and this will be a moot post. Expat pilots are not to blame and should in fact be welcomed and utilized for their knowledge and experience.
The second thing that amazes me about this post is that a majority of expat pilots that I have met on the subcontinent are Americans or Britons. Hmmm, how many people of Indian descent call either the US or Great Britain home? Millions...They are doctors, shopkeepers, lawyers, salesmen, engineers, pilots, dentists, etc, etc. The west has opened their doors to Indians for many years and will continue to do so. I find this anti-western pilot attitude to be xenophobic, ignorant, ungrateful and spiteful. So a few Western pilots are needed to train and staff a new fleet in a developing aviation industry and you're up in arms and calling for their expulsion? How many Indians are training the next batch of PHD candidates at Western universities? Just look at a math department, it's most of the professorship.
I expected more from a culture that prides itself on knowledge, karma and enlightenment. Now I realize that most of these posts are the result of misguided anger from a youthful and from my experience, spoiled, group. For the record, I have been an expat pilot in India, albeit not on heavy equipment. My mother is from India(not of Indian descent) and I still vacation in "Incredible India" when the visa process doesn't scare me away. I miss my tenure there and hope to return one day to work again. I helped to train/mentor several pilots to one day be captains themselves. I keep in contact with all of them and only wish them the best in their careers. Because of me, they were able to safely gain experience, knowledge and a paycheck. Oh, and I miss my Royal Enfield, chipatis and street food! Take care guys, we're not out to get you. I would like to shake hands and have a Kingfisher with all of you should our paths cross.

[jimmygill]

You know what really amazes me about this forum? Well...A few things actually. First of all, that many of the Indians posting and those that have created the political pressure to expel expat pilots in India are low time pilots. Guys, you country is having an economic downturn just like the rest of the world. Just because you spent x number of lachs on your training does not guarantee you a job.


Thanks for your inputs.

Its a myth to say that Indian economy is in a downturn. India's GDP has been growing. Its just that rate of growth has gown down, and that too from 8% to to 6%.

In aviation parlance the aircraft is still climbing even though at a reduced rate of climb. Of course the public hysteria about recession has been used by several to eek out favorable policies from the government.

You are right just because one has spent x number of lacs in training one may not get a job, we must also build a political pressure to phase-out expats over a period of term.



It also takes more than six months to upgrade on heavy equipment. This is probably an insurance and common sense requirement. No one owes you anything in this world. I was going to say that "no one owes you s@#t" but I remembered how sensitive you are...But I digress. There are thousands of low time pilots sitting around without jobs.


You are at liberty to say what you want to say, but don't expect anyone to count your opinion without proper argument or facts.

"No one owes us any ****." And thats precisely why we have to go and get it. All will agree
agree that the first step in getting that is a CPL and many of us have got it. The second step is NOT "wait home till an economic turn-around"

Expat pilots are helping the Indian aviation industry to develop so that you may have jobs in the future.




This is one of the most preposterous argument, especially when industry growth rate is around 10%. If the industry is nascent and poised for explosive growth rates I can understand the need for expats. But with almost 2 years of stagnation and ensuing cut in capacity, its hard to justify expats-helping-develop-aviation-in-India argument.



You don't have a job now because the economy sucks and no one saw the bubble about to burst. In a few years everyone will be scrambling to hire pilots again and this will be a moot post.



If none saw the bubble, how can anyone be sure about scramble-to-hire-pilots? Is it just based on blind optimism and considerate bonhomie?



Expat pilots are not to blame and should in fact be welcomed and utilized for their knowledge and experience.


So I guess we should hire expats as contract synthetic instructors, because they are the ones who are sharing the knowledge and experience in a more meaningful, efficient and multiplicative manner.




The second thing that amazes me about this post is that a majority of expat pilots that I have met on the subcontinent are Americans or Britons. Hmmm, how many people of Indian descent call either the US or Great Britain home? Millions...They are doctors, shopkeepers, lawyers, salesmen, engineers, pilots, dentists, etc, etc. The west has opened their doors to Indians for many years and will continue to do so. I find this anti-western pilot attitude to be xenophobic, ignorant, ungrateful and spiteful. So a few Western pilots are needed to train and staff a new fleet in a developing aviation industry and you're up in arms and calling for their expulsion? How many Indians are training the next batch of PHD candidates at Western universities? Just look at a math department, it's most of the professorship.


I have FAA CPL AMEL ASEL IR, CFI, CFII and and A&P certificate, I paid for all these while I studied there, I am more than willing to work airplanes and instruct at any flight school. Can you please show me the open door to the west?

But I guess you can get me only that job in USA/UK which 'you' need and not which I want, irrespective of my qualifications.

I neither hate nor am afraid of foreigners, but I won't like any foreigner to take my job. Period. If you were an Indian national, doesn't matter if you were of USA/UK origin I will not mind. And I can say that for a majority of my compatriots, they are not xenophobic.

If a Briton wants to do a PhD in mathematics and he can't get in, because Oxford has been too busy taking in foreigners, I will not mind at all if that Briton writes to her MP.




I expected more from a culture that prides itself on knowledge, karma and enlightenment. Now I realize that most of these posts are the result of misguided anger from a youthful and from my experience, spoiled, group.


I am not sure if I should have any apologies or not for not meeting your expectations, but I can assure you not all young people you see in Indian aviation are spoiled, since you have yourself worked here you will be very well aware of this.



For the record, I have been an expat pilot in India, albeit not on heavy equipment. My mother is from India(not of Indian descent) and I still vacation in "Incredible India" when the visa process doesn't scare me away. I miss my tenure there and hope to return one day to work again. I helped to train/mentor several pilots to one day be captains themselves. I keep in contact with all of them and only wish them the best in their careers. Because of me, they were able to safely gain experience, knowledge and a paycheck. Oh, and I miss my Royal Enfield, chipatis and street food! Take care guys, we're not out to get you. I would like to shake hands and


You are welcome to tour here, but I will not welcome you to work as a pilot, NOT because I am a spoiled brat, but simply because there is no reciprocity.

If an american wants to gain experience as a flight instructor in USA, he can get a paying job in any of the thousands of schools there, but I on other hand will only be allowed to go for pay-to-fly f/o in USA. Is this what is called an open door?

[privateer01]

By training in the USA you deprived some poor Indian instructor of a Job.......

[Fubaliera]

Indians should learn how to drive and not eat with there hands before trying to fly

[shanx]

@privateer01

By training in the USA you deprived some poor Indian instructor of a Job.......I am afraid sir, what you have stated above is a classic example of sheer ignorance of general aviation in India, and ab-initio flight training in particular.

There are a handful of flight schools and flying clubs in various Indian cities, BUT almost all of them indulge in all sorts of hideous and shady things like fake logging, over logging of flight time etc.

Please see this website ... :: Aviation Frauds :: (http://aviationfraud.com/)
.. and this one ..Instructor told pilots to use pencils for log book entries, faked licences, say police (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/instructor-told-pilots-to-use-pencils-for-log-book-entries-faked-licences-say-police/268800/0)

and this ..Your pilot may have bought his licence - India - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Your-pilot-may-have-bought-his-licence/articleshow/2520602.cms)
.. some more .. Love in air, plane in river - dnaindia.com (http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_love-in-air-plane-in-river_1157953)

You will get some idea of what really goes on in flight schools in India.

It is not uncommon to find students languishing in flight schools in India for months together and being stuck at the SPL (Student Pilot Licence) level with not more than 10-25 hours dual time logged in their logbooks. 90% of the time, half those hours would be fake. Also known as "paper flying" or "ghost hours" in India.

In some of the flying schools, it is impossible for a student to even get an "introductory flight" or even a joyride with the Chief Instructor unless he has spent a few months doing virtually NOTHING in the school other than smoking cigarettes, "beedis", sometimes weed and guzzling down alcohol to the gallons and philandering.

All the schools take a huge sum as UPFRONT payment from the student even before enrolling and thus, the student is literally held by his "b@lls" (sorry ladies), and there's absolutely NOTHING he/she can do about it.

Most of the schools themselves are located in remote small, godforsaken towns with barely any contact or communication or transportation with the rest of the country.
It is sometimes difficult to get cell phone network signals, internet connectivity ... HECK .. many of the places do not have bare minimum accommodation fit for a human being to survive.
The hostels/apartments STINK of urine and human faeces mixed with that of the animals living in the vicinity.

It is extremely difficult for even a guy to survive in these conditions, leave alone the average Indian girl who fears she might get r@ped by some hooligans in the near-by slums, her fellow trainees or some sexually frustrated CFI/school owner !!!!
(NO KIDDING)
In some schools, girls try to flirt and give sexual favours in return for "quick" course completion and paper work from the CFI, while guys give dope/scotch whiskey in big crates to the CFI for the same.

Also, as of now, a lot of these flying clubs have a few un airworthy aircraft parked in their ramps, with no flight instructors and sometimes no ground instructors also for months together.
Many are defunct. (Of course, their so called "Admissions" departments are NEVER defunct and always promptly attend any calls related to admissions and fee payment)

Trust me, none of what I have written above is exaggeration.
It is true night-marish experiences of many friends of mine who somehow got away from the "hell hole" they were in, and started afresh in schools in USA, Canada etc.

[privateer01]

Well....maybe Jimmy would like to start his political action there then.....

Clean up the flight schools = more qualified Indian pilots trained by indian pilots = no expats needed.

Sorry but the initial thought still stands.

Getting your tickets in the USA and then complaining about Expats in your homeland smacks of a double standard to me.

Clean up your own yard sort of thing.

[shanx]

itsbrokenagain,

jimmygill, instead of waiting for the job to arrive on your doorstep and a pair of wings to be pinned to your tit, get off your pc and go get a job..

As expats we look for jobs everywhere and anywhere, why dont you also.... if you are really that qualified I see no reason why you cannot be employed somewhere in this big world we live in. Aviation is a global industry (hence you have papers from the FAA), so dont insulate yourself here in India.


I understand that was not directed to me, however, I still want a frank answer from you, to my question ...

With an FAA CPL, CFI, CFII, MEI ratings and roughly 260 hours TT, please do tell me where an Indian national can look for work in the current world scenario with those or similar qualifications ?

In the USA ?? NO. Nobody is willing to employ an alien.

When I wrote an email to a couple of well known flight school in the US regarding flight instructor or ground instructor positions, I got a curt reply saying "Sorry, due to the current situation in the USA, and due to security issues, we are unable to employ foreigners in any position in the aviation industry."

Oh yes .. a few flight schools have agreed to let me "work" as an instructor for free, just to build time on the condition that I pay for the first 50 hours of dual given time !
By the way, one school in Texas even agreed to pay me "unofficial" salary in cash PROVIDED I bring Indian students regularly to the school.

Do you really want me or any other Indian or foreigner to WORK FOR FREE or PAY TO FLY and deprive an American citizen a paying job because of that ?
Be fortunate that me and atleast 5 other Indians I know of have chosen NOT to do such a thing.
I am grateful to the country that gave me opportunity to train and get good education. If I am to work in the USA, I will do it only if it is LEGAL.
Sigh ! .. so any kind of work in USA is pretty much ruled out for the time being.

Working anywhere in the EU is ruled out. They want a JAA licence and a frozen ATPL as bare minimum and citizenship in any of the EU nations !

No charter companies or schools in the Middle East (UAE, Qatar, Saudi, etc) even responded to emails or faxes.
When I enquired on phone, they said they would hire me if I had a King Air rating with minimum 100 hours King Air time.
Now where on earth do I get that King Air Rating from ?
Ok .. fine .. I wont be an "armchair pilot" or wait for something to be served on platter or "pinned on to my tit"... so I'll pay more $$$ and get a King Air rating.
Now ... errr .. what about the 100 hours of King Air time ?

Ah ! .. there's the good old EAGLEJET in Miami, FL, USA. They cant sell me King Air time, but they are willing to sell me 300 or 500 hours of Beech 99 or B1900 time !
Awesome ! .. oh but wait ... it's only going to cost me another $25,000 !!!

Hmm ... No school in australia or New Zealand is interested in my FAA licences or FAA inctructor ratings. Two schools however said they might give me ground instructor positions and possibly flight instruction job in the future IF I could convert my FAA licences to a CASA CPL and pay for atleast 50 hours of PIC time to meet certain requirements !

Nah ! .. not interested .. I'll just keep my current temporary job (not in aviation) and be an "armchair" pilot for some more time till something happens in Indian aviation.

[optimus.Prime]

@ Shanx,

All arguments aside, the above-written post pretty much sums up the entire anomaly for a Newbie!

[privateer01]

There is no security issue.....

They are just too lazy or have too many applicants to take the time to follow the security requirements.

Theres lots of foreign nationals working in the USA But some employers don't want to go jumping thru the AFSP TSA hoops.

[jimmygill]

Indians should learn how to drive and not eat with there hands before trying to fly

If you ever get a chance of breaking bread with Jesus, I am sure your are the kind of joker who will be running around for a fork and knife.

[shanx]

Sorry but the initial thought still stands.

Getting your tickets in the USA and then complaining about Expats in your homeland smacks of a double standard to me.

Clean up your own yard sort of thing.
When someone wears a pair of red glasses, he sees everything red. When he wears green glasses, everything would seem green. Even if someone else told him that the white wall ahead is white in colour, he would still say it is green!

There is no double standards here.

Yes, we did get our tickets in the USA, but we have paid good $$$ for it. The USA govt. has not done any generous charity and given free flight training.
We give you business and $$$, we get service in return. Lets keep it that way.

Expats are not doing voluntary charity here.
They are being paid to work here merely for convenience and because it makes more economic sense in hiring an expat and make him/her fly the airplanes RATHER than training a low time pilot and upgrade him ASAP.

Expats are NOT experts. Expats are just pilots with lots of hours.



A Man's home is his castle.

We paid for flight training, paid takes in $$$ in USA, Canada etc and were NOT allowed to even work part time.
We obey your country's laws and hence returned to our countries after we were done with our training.

Whether jimmygill or I, or any other Indian wants to launch a political campaign against expats (which by the way is YOUR interpretation), it is entirely OUR prerogative.

If you feel so strongly against it and hate foreigners coming to YOUR land, then please by all means join politics in YOUR whatever country and do what you can to take out foreigners.
Return to your country and to your 1$ burger flipping salary jobs, or other bush flying jobs.

Ask your governments to try and plug all the possible loop holes used by foreigners to gain permanent residency or citizenship unscrupulously.

[shanx]

@4runner

No one owes you anything in this world. I was going to say that "no one owes you s@#t" but I remembered how sensitive you are..Maybe not where you come from ... BUT ... any ELECTED GOVERNMENT OWES IT'S PEOPLE EXPLANATION AND ACCOUNTABILITY FOR IT'S POLICIES.

and if Im not mistaken, that is exactly what jimmygill is trying to do.

But yeah, in the general sense, I do agree with what you said.
No one owes us $hit.
and thats why we FOUGHT for our Independence from the #$#$#@@@ Brits.

and this is exactly why the once huge and mighty "British EMPIRE" is now reduced to a piece of __________. (America's poodle ?? :E)

[jimmygill]

Funny how in all the countries I have worked its just in India where there is this foul cry to get rid of all foreigners....

How many countries where you worked had following characteristics

* Has a unemployed pilot population of the same size as the employed one, so 50% pilot employment. Which country? Belize, Barbados, Panama, Taiwan, China?

* How many of them are functional democracies?


Imagine if all the other countries of the world were to make all Indian pilots return their homeland then you might see some serious issues with you low time guys getting jobs for a long long long time ...


When they are not needed they will be sent back home. As far as expats in India are considered they are not needed as of today. So phase out is happening and we will help that happen as much as we can.

[shanx]

Funny how in all the countries I have worked its just in India where there is this foul cry to get rid of all foreigners.... Mr."globe trotting nomad",

Worked in Australia Sir ???

Racial attacks in Australia: Why Indians only? (http://www.merinews.com/article/racial-attacks-in-australia-why-indians-only/15771339.shtml)

Another 'racial attack' on Indian student in Australia (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Another-racial-attack-on-indian-student-in-australia/475327/)

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Indians speak out on Australian attacks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8100956.stm)

Australia: Indian university students protest racist attacks (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jun2009/stud-j02.shtml)

Ever wondered why almost all DEROGATORY slurs such as "NIGGER", "SAND NIGGER" etc, have had their origins in English speaking western nations ???

[shanx]

Imagine if all the other countries of the world were to make all Indian pilots return their homeland then you might see some serious issues with you low time guys getting jobs for a long long long time ...

Jimmygill has explained about this.

To add to that, Im sure you know that this pretty much applies to ANY INDUSTRY, ANYWHERE in the world.

It is more to do with the political situation prevailing rather than talent, merit or safety etc.

Remember the dot-com or IT "bubble" that burst in the year 2000 ?
Thousands of engineers and software programers who were in "demand" in the USA were all given the pink slip when they were no more needed.
It is all about basic demand-supply thing and complying with the prevailing regulations. Economics 101 !


good luck and happy job hunting,

Good luck to you as well mate ! :ok:


remember just because you are a pilot doesnt make you captain material, there are many many career FO's across the world... so its true to say not all pilots here will be captains in the future


Is your FATA not being renewed ? Or has your company asked you to leave soon Sir ??
Because all your posts reek of frustration, disgruntlement, and insecurity.

Why dont you argue with VALID POINTS related to the topic, instead of using the pathetic "safe-way-out" and insecure approach of calling a wannabe a wannabe and reminding him/her for the UMPTEENTH time that he has only 200 hours ?

[privateer01]

We paid for flight training, paid takes in $$$ in USA, Canada etc and were NOT allowed to even work part time.
We obey your country's laws and hence returned to our countries after we were done with our training.

I'm sure a vast majority of Expats in India do the same when done with thier employment.

My point is not if you worked while in the USA.

Its that you did basically what your railing against:

1. You are not happy with Expat pilots in India. (your perogative)

2. You would like to see Indians employed in India (nothing wrong with that)

3. The Indian Gov. allows national companies to hire foreign pilots.

But Shanx and Jimmy......you went out and hired non indian (Foreign) pilots to get your training. They weren't expats...for obvious reasons.

Whether jimmygill or I, or any other Indian wants to launch a political campaign against expats (which by the way is YOUR interpretation), it is entirely OUR prerogative.

I agree with you. I just point out that flight training in the USA does nothing to improve training in India.

Yes, we did get our tickets in the USA, but we have paid good $$$ for it. The USA govt. has not done any generous charity and given free flight training.
We give you business and $$$, we get service in return. Lets keep it that way.

No i'd respectfully suggest you develope training at home. In the USA being a flight instructor is seen as an entry level job. Its seen as an experience building job. You have to know the material to teach the material.

You seem to avoid the whole point of what I am saying.

Expats give you a Service and you give them money.

See the correlation with your statement?

Ask your governments to try and plug all the possible loop holes used by foreigners to gain permanent residency or citizenship unscrupulously

In all Seriousness.....I'd be happy if the USA just enforced the laws they have.

If they would Deport every person in the country Illegally....people who wish to follow the proceedures and enter could do so.

Its a national shame that if you wander across the border you can stay....but if you want to apply for a visa and stay legally...you'll have a hell of a wait.

[jimmygill]

But Shanx and Jimmy......you went out and hired non indian (Foreign) pilots to get your training. They weren't expats...for obvious reasons.

There are a few subtle difference between expats-in-India and Indian-students-abroad.

1. The Indian student when he goes to USA/Canada/Philippines brings business to these countries and provide a certain employment. And precisely for this reason students are welcome there. The cash flows into the host country.

2. On the other hand when an expat serves in India, he/she takes away a job. Thats why they are not welcome. The cash flows out of the host country.


You would like to see Indians employed in India

Yes I will like to see Indians employed in India, and Indians employed in USA/Canada/Any-Other-Country. I will like citizen of any country to get employment in any other country where he is skilled enough to get an
employment and work legally with all the rights of a worker and without any encumbrances on basic human freedom. In fact this is the only way left for the human race to ensure that we don't eat up the earth.

Presently world is not so open. Everything is 'need' based. The 'need' is determined by lobbyists and enforced by governments. If MicroSoft thinks they need more foreign IT worker, they lobby and get the VISA caps extended. If UK needs more doctors they get the doctors from around the world. If middle east requires construction and public hygiene workers they get them. If the Middle East needs pilots they get these from UK/USA/OZ/India. If you are a B737 commander you can come to India, if you are a construction worker it will be hard to get in. If I am an IT expert I can go and work in USA, if I want to teach flying, It doesn't matter what skills I have, I will not get an opportunity to teach there, unless I can buy my way and be ready to pay for work.



I just point out that flight training in the USA does nothing to improve training in India.


Yes it does nothing directly to improve training industry in India. But some things can only be changed by complete destruction, CPL level training in India is one of those. At the same time I will like to put it here that my choice of training location was more determined by quality of training than by the more altruistic aim of improving the flight training industry standards. I am not an altruist in strict sense and I haven't portrayed myself to be one.

[privateer01]

There are a few subtle difference between expats-in-India and Indian-students-abroad.

1. The Indian student when he goes to USA/Canada/Philippines brings business to these countries and provide a certain employment. And precisely for this reason students are welcome there. The cash flows into the host country.

2. On the other hand when an expat serves in India, he/she takes away a job. Thats why they are not welcome. The cash flows out of the host country.


The difference must be too Subtle.......

1. The indian student abroad has taken money out of the Indian Aviation economy.

2. You yourself have taken your own cash (for whatever reason) out of your own Country. You've also denied an Indian instructor a Job. (maybe the quality and honesty in training is lacking in India....I don't know...but if it is...maybe you'll want to fix that? :confused:)


Sure ban all Expats.....But don't you think you've missed half the problem?

What about indigenous Aviation? Don't you think it would be a good idea to develope some before you ban everyone?

Really come on....hows aviation supposed to develope? Its one of the last occupations with an apprentice system.

Maybe 50% of Indians wouldn't be unemployed if all the students were not off in another country getting trained.

[shanx]

@privateer01

Let me clarify. I am NOT against expats working in India and have never written anywhere before that expats should be sent out of India or anything on those lines.

Infact, whenever someone has written anything like "kick out the expats", or "get rid of expats", I have always replied strongly against that post because such statements are poor in taste.

I would say it again, trying to get accountability from the Government you have elected does not equate to a political campaign to get rid of expats.

In the USA, everything is clearly spelled out regarding hiring of aliens in different non-immigrant categories of visas by the USCIS.
The USCIS infact always has a "skills shortage list", and it is clearly mentioned that if an employer has to sponsor an alien for a work visa (like the H1B visa), then he has to show sufficient documentation that an American citizen is not available for the advertised job vacancy.

In India, we do not have anything clearly documented regarding work permits and visas for foreigners. Yes, there is the "Foreigner's act of 1946", BUT it is only a broad guidline regarding immigrants and non immigrants and has never since been amended regarding hiring of foreigners for specific skills or jobs.

This basically has lead to a situation where the bean counters can have their way depending on the economic scenario, without worrying too much about complying with the current regulations, since nothing restrictive is mentioned anyway other than merely meeting minimum requirement for a FATA and security clearance by the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Hence, the only option left for the Indian national is to appeal or request the government for actual data regarding statistics like FATA details etc and putting the same up for open discussions to see to what extent importing labour is justified.

[King Julian]

Come on guys...take a break!


Indians: Where is your "adhiti devo bhava"

And

Expats: Be happy that you're employed here and getting a big fat pay

[jimmygill]

2. You yourself have taken your own cash (for whatever reason) out of your own Country. You've also denied an Indian instructor a Job. (maybe the quality and honesty in training is lacking in India....I don't know...but if it is...maybe you'll want to fix that? )

You are on right track, the honesty and quality is lacking in aviation training. Wouldn't you have made a similar decision in similar situation? If you are in UK/USA etc your pilot-job is already protected by some legislation or other, if someone in India wants the same for his job, suddenly the idea of protectionism becomes indigestible.

Indians: Where is your 'adhiti devo bhava'

'Atithi' means guest not a 'foreign worker'. If it seems that this particular value is missing a bit in today's Indians, there may be a learning associated with past experience with guests from abroad.

[sky jet]

I have read this thread and the others with similar sentiments for the last several months and resisted posting. I have noticed a constant in those with the most virulent anti-expat views. It appears that those who most want us to leave are the currently unemployed. I find it interesting that those employed as first officers consistently state that they are glad that we are here. They tell us that they learn from us are trusted to improve their skills more by us and enjoy learning from our years of experience with the equipment. Many of us have been flying longer than all the Indian airlines except NACIL have been in existence. I try to teach something to my FO's every time I go to work. It helps them and keeps me sharp. My airline has been upgrading pilots as fast as they can and phasing down expats since I came to India two years ago. I fully expected them to be done with us at the phase out date that the DGCA originally set. The airline (which has all Indian management) decided that they needed us longer and petitioned for an extension. Still the day is fast approaching when we all will be gone. The real problem in India is that many young people decided for whatever reason to invest in careers in aviation than there will ever be enough jobs for either here or abroad. Some of you need to seriously come up with a plan B and maybe C and D. Just as elsewhere in the aviation world some who are deserving of a job will be left outside and yes, some who are unworthy will get the golden ticket and have the career that others covet. Expats are at worst a short term bump in your road of life. A bump that you probably can not do anything about. I suggest that you spend your time preparing for your future by working towards getting hired at an airline by networking. Did it ever occur to you that the expat has made friends while here in India and that those friends could be offended by your attitude towards them. The Indian pilot has spent hours in the cockpit with expats but does not know you at all. Because we stick out because of our uniforms and yes skin color I am often approached by young people in airports who want to talk about aviation and becoming a pilot or CPL holders looking for advice on getting jobs. I always take the time to talk to them but have seen locals blow them off with, "there are no jobs and to many people wanting them, forget it". I wish you all the best of luck in your job search, but why don't you give this topic a rest? It is not changing anything and I can't see it changing anything until the economics of airline flying in India change.

Jet

[jimmygill]

It appears that those who most want us to leave are the currently unemployed. I find it interesting that those employed as first officers consistently state that they are glad that we are here.

Those who are employed are merely investing in 'network' while they have the opportunity to. The moment they reach the company minimums for command upgrade and notice that they stand to get better chances of upgrade if company adopts an expedited expats phase out policy, they will have similar bitter sentiments in the issue as you think the currently 'unemployed' ones are having. Its no denying that working with you may be a good experience for a first officer, but most will like to work in your place if given a choice.

I fully expected them to be done with us at the phase out date that the DGCA originally set. The airline (which has all Indian management) decided that they needed us longer and petitioned for an extension.

If we decide to petition against the extension, why should we be labeled as anti-expat.



Did it ever occur to you that the expat has made friends while here in India and that those friends could be 'offended' by your attitude towards them.


Shouldn't the expat feel offended when his/her country does not allow foreigner pilots to work at entry level flying jobs, to gain safe flying experience.

The Indian pilot has spent hours in the cockpit with expats but does not know you at all.

Could he not be pretending that he doesn't know 'us', after all this pretense may save embarrassing (or offending) a friend.


Because we stick out because of our uniforms and yes skin color I am often approached by young people in airports who want to talk about aviation and becoming a pilot or CPL holders looking for advice on getting jobs. I always take the time to talk to them but have seen locals blow them off with, "there are no jobs and to many people wanting them, forget it".

That indicates that you are a gentleman. Whenever I am approached I do the same, but I appraise them of the current and likely future scenario.


I wish you all the best of luck in your job search, but why don't you give this topic a rest? It is not changing anything and I can't see it changing anything until the economics of airline flying in India change.

Thanks, If our action is not changing anything then what is the origin of deadline for expat phaseout, why are expat related questions being asked in the parliament.

[Dragon 83]

I am also being phased out as an expat working here for 4 years. What I cannot comprehend is why some new expats are being processed to replace us because the DGCA says 4 years is the max one can work at one Indian Airline.

This is a real paradox as the new guys are still expats and will require all the lengthy transition time to integrate and yet we could remain fully trained within the company.

The company would prefer us to stay but also cannot seem to get by the 4 year DGCA rule wherever it came from.

[shanx]

@skyjet

The real problem in India is that many young people decided for whatever reason to invest in careers in aviation than there will ever be enough jobs for either here or abroad. Some of you need to seriously come up with a plan B and maybe C and D.

Totally agreed sir.
Most of us have already executed our plan B (or plan C), and that is why we do not have any loans to repay, are in a position to comfortably buy a type rating (if needed) and are earning while still being in touch with aviation.
However, that does not prevent us from trying whatever it takes to appeal against the extension of the DGCA deadline for expat phase out.
Everyone is entitled to a view in a democracy. While we may not agree with each other, what is more important is that we agree to disagree.

In all honesty, the driving force for most of the Indian "unemployed" pilots against expats working in India in general are two :

1. The fact that foreign countries like USA, Canada etc do not allow foreigners to work in entry level pilot jobs. (There are exceptions to this, but I can confidently say that all the Indians working right now in USA as junior flight instructors are working ILLEGALLY without any proper documentation or are PAYING TO WORK/FLY.)

2. The Anti-India sentiments expressed by several expats. I dont need to mention names or threads. It's too obvious if one scrolls through the various threads on pprune.

[sky jet]

Shanx,

1. "The fact that foreign countries like USA, Canada etc do not allow foreigners to work in entry level pilot jobs. (There are exceptions to this, but I can confidently say that all the Indians working right now in USA as junior flight instructors are working ILLEGALLY without any proper documentation or are PAYING TO WORK/FLY.)"

Exactly the point that many here have made. I am not occupying an entry level job. My Airline upgrades FO's at the minimum experience level to Captain and has consistently reduced the number of expats employed. They have tried, with varying success, to recruit Indian commanders also and yet still can not man the airline without expats. When they can man with all locals I am sure they will as expats are financially not a good investment.

2. "The Anti-India sentiments expressed by several expats. I don't need to mention names or threads. It's too obvious if one scrolls through the various threads on pprune."

With this I can agree wholeheartedly. I cringe when I read some of the things posted here. I try to always remember that I am a guest here.

Happy Landings,

Jet

[rdr]

every decision depends about how many votes can be garnered by making a populist decision, or, simply not making one. logic, safety, or plain old common sense do not prevail.

its all about staying in power.
there is no other place in this galaxy where inexperianced pilots can take on the decision making arm of a national industry. it happens here because the people running aviation just dont have a thorough understanding of the industry. most qualified type rated ones do not say a word, to remain pollitically correct, or just realise its futility.

i do feel that the total absence of any proper AVIATION STRUCTURE is causing the problems and unless the Indian government is serious in resolving the ENTIRE INDUSTRY, the best case scenario is this constant putting out of little fires.

coming back to your point about releasing 4 year expats, and at the same time, expending hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace these guys with new expats is simple, and silly. the rule book says so, so its done. never mind if they "throw out the baby with the bath water."

[av8r76]

The rules are confusing and contradictory and are unfortunately more often than not bent and/or broken by the very fact that they make no sense at all.

Theses airlines are run by ruthless bean counters who will chop and prune any expenditure deemed non essential and expats have come under the scanner for cost cutting. The moment they see an out expats will be history. So rest assured there is no conspiracy or vendetta against local crews (employed and unemployed). Money talks and if they could afford to make do without the expats it would have happened a long time ago.

And for the schmuck who said smoking craters will bring back the expats... get a life.

[Dragon 83]

Hearing from several sources now that expat extensions are forthcoming including beyond 4 years at any particular Indian airline.

Any others hearing this?

[411A]

Hearing from several sources now that expat extensions are forthcoming including beyond 4 years at any particular Indian airline.

A couple of smokin' holes with local pilots 'in charge' and it will be permanent.:}

[jimmygill]

A couple of smokin' holes with local pilots 'in charge' and it will be permanent.

If you are working here, start counting your days. If you are not working here, don't even look this way.

[sky jet]

411A

Do you work here in India? Because if you don't you are not helping those of us who live and work here. If you do work here there are hundreds of arrivals and departures with all Indian crews all over the world every day. I don't see any smoking holes being made. Lets hope it stays that way. I know we often forget but there are people sitting behind that cockpit door.

Jet

[sunchaser]

Let's take a look at how many Indians have immigrated and are working in the USA Airline Industry and have received preferential treatment as a minority. FYI: No comparison pal.
Do not complain to me about Expat's working in India. Or how many Indian immigrant's in the USA who after getting there measly 500 hours go back to India and get in the right seat as born again Indian's. Give me a break. You guy's invade every other country and take jobs and cry spilled milk when people come into your backyard.

[King Julian]

In India parents say "Study well my child, or you wont get a job"

In America parents say "Study well my child or else an Indian will grab your job"

Does this make sense to anyone..?:ok:

KJ

[privateer01]

Sadly...American parents don't say much to thier children...:mad:

[COCOCHANEL]

The free flow of qualified foreign labour policy is usually in place when there are shortages of professionals for certain occupation in any given country, and likewise the restricitions when there isn't any. This applies to both the developed and developing countries. This topic seems to be the bone of contention between expats and Indian pilots, when neither can provide any solid statistics disproving each other.

The DGCA has a problem about being transparent, hence certain Indian pilots' plan to request for rti , and invite inputs from others. There wouldn't be so much of controversy if the detailed statistics were made publicly available.

Recently many threads in the South Asia and Far east are rife with "who's better than who" arguments, and posts obviously meant to one up each other, in between good advice and useful info. When someone gets offended, there are comments about the persons from that particular country being unable to take a joke. It is just good etiquette to allow people to make fun of themselves or their nationality, but it is not ok for someone else to do it.

As a result many posts or threads designed to respond in a tit for tat manner keep cropping up. Consequently some people got banned, and some people got away with it.

I guess it is just wishful thinking that the threads will be less about "I am better than you" and more about facts, knowledge exchange, and of course, passing on rumours.

[shanx]

@411A

A couple of smokin' holes with local pilots 'in charge' and it will be permanent.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gifWell Sir ... here's something you and the likes of you have been wishing for all along ...

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/411701-polish-presidents-c-down-reports.html

Once you see that piece of news, Im sure you and all the other sadist "professionals" dreaming and YEARNING for "smoking craters" are going to have one hell of an orgasm ...

[shanx]

In India parents say "Study well my child, or you wont get a job"

In America parents say "Study well my child or else an Indian will grab your job"

Does this make sense to anyone..?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Well, that implies :

Indian children study hard, American children hardly study :E

[rdr]

411A, you are a joke and a disgrace to this forum, community, and mostly yourself.
a ******** like you belongs in an asylum, not a cockpit.

[Willie Everlearn]

The Indian Government aren't immune to making mistakes. Getting rid of expat pilots would be just another serious mistake and mean disaster for Indian air lines who need the experienced crew. Now is not the time for the Indian government to be turfing expat pilots. Get serious! :eek:

When Indian pilots realize that a 250 hour wonder with a freshly minted CPL and multi engine rating DOESN'T sit in the RHS of a modern jet airliner, these rantings will cease and common sense will prevail. :suspect:

Willie :ok:

[Dragon 83]

Well it defies logic or economic sense when expat 4 year guys are being phased out while some new hire expats are being processed to replace them.

I dare say it will be some time before common sense will see the light of day!

[fullforward]

According to a top DGCA official that flew with a friend last week this 4 year rule is dead and gone.
Finally something starts to make sense.:D

By the way, the combined experiences of the top guns in command of the ill fated Polish president plane were less than 4.000 hs, more than the required for command upgrade in India. With a 250 hr first officer.

[TopTup]

What the hell has that devastating accident in Russia got to do with this topic?will you children stoop that low to further your agenda?

Back to the topic....
Your passport & nationality DOES NOT automaticly grant you the God given right to pilot a sophisticated aircraft. That same nationality does not rubber stamp instantaneous experience, training and credentials borne from that training & experience.

Yes, replace the foreign labor when the pilots available to fill that void can compete in terms of expertise through training, since experience has to be replaced by that training. So stop lobbying to get rid of the labor that keeps your airlines flying and start DEMANDING the training and standards you are owed in order to replace the foreign labor.

Your anger is so misplaced. You would rather lower the bar for your egotistical gain & pure arrogant agendas. If you demand to be that pathetic then at the very least have the credentials to support it! Not just a shiny CPL and email address such as "[email protected]"

Your newspapers and AI circulars are even stating the current standards are so bad the the MINIMUM ability to hand fly an aircraft is considered dangerous! Hand flying an NDB approach after a full sector entry should be the minimum. Not a national identity.

Get rid of the expats when you can replace what they bring. Demand that training and not compromise it by bribery, corruption and forged training documents.

Until that happens you are left with this necessary evil. Get over it and start focussing your anger in the right direction, not cheap xenophobia.

Airlines like Cathay and Qantas with Second Officers with a few thousand hours, a minimum of 500 multi engine PIC wait and are trained for (usually) a mimnimum of 3 years. So 4 years to get an expat in, train a batch of local pilots, & get the expat out is not impossible! So WHY is it not happening??!!!!

Focus your attention in the right direction & not in the oh so easy relm of blaming those who are bought in to do what you should be given the training to do yourself.

[Wannabe Flyer]

The EXPAT vs Indian pilot debate has been going on here for the past couple of years. All sides of the debate have merit to it. However a "250" hour wonder in 2007 as is mentioned somewhere here should have now become a more experienced 2500 hour wonder by now? (subject to him being employed all the while).

Just curious, but is that not the principal. Let the experienced expats be around till our "wonders" either gain experience or get weeded out. Considering most flights in India are under 2 hours that would mean in 4 years sufficient experience in the critical phases of flight for some of these guys to have good experience under their belt.

Now once the 2007 wunderkind becomes a 3000 hr experienced "Kapitan", he will have to worry about the 250 hour kid snapping at his heels and not the Expat.

[av8r76]

Willie,
A case of sour grapes I presume.
The flip side of your argument is the bloodsucking charter companies in Canada that assume that a 250 hour CPL holder is a prime candidate for washing and loading planes. Two extreme ends to a very broad spectrum.

Top Tup,
You make valid points backed up with first hand experience and it becomes almost impossible to question your viewpoint (which a lot of people do).

But what I have a beef with is the fact that expats in general consider Indian pilots... in general to be quite incompetent at what they do hence the smaking crater prophecies rampant in these forums.

Going through 411's posts, he mentions things with point blank sincerity which draws a lot of flak from others. But based on his assumptions the overriding adjective to describe Indian pilots is incompetence and indifference which I disagree with.

I am sure if I were to apply in his outfit AND meet/exceed the requirements my resume would be at the bottom of his trashcan just by virtue of me being Indian. There is a word for that kind of behaviour and don't get me wrong... we Indians practice it as well in its many forms.

[Willie Everlearn]

av8r76

Canada has it's own stupidity. For sure.
Sour grapes? No, not really. As I've already said regarding Canadian pilots, Canadian pilot jobs for Canadian pilots. So I have to agree, Indian pilot jobs for Indian pilots. But in both cases experience is the game breaker. As long as you have the experience level, you're in good shape. However, airlines know they need experience. That's why you have expats in any country when needed. Look at China, the Middle East, Japan, and others. India doesn't stand exempt. It's just the reality. Protect your own at all costs and innocent lives are lost. :confused:

Have you ever been involved in the training of Indian 'nationals'? Not NRIs. But home grown nationals? As difficult a pill as this is to swallow, they are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Even those with presumably thousands of hours. The ones to avoid, at all costs, are the "good old boys" from the Indian Air Force. :ugh:

But, hang on a second, isn't the DGCA swarming with good old boys???

Kicking expats out may not be the way forward. But I have no say in it. Just an opinion based on my experience.

Willie :ok:

[itsbrokenagain]

"that a 250 hour CPL holder is a prime candidate for washing and loading planes. "

WTF, you wont wash and load a plane at 250 hrs, maybe time to realize you arent a god, just a pilot!

I have been flying 22 years and I will still get out there and help clean the plane, and yes I help load bags. I am just a pilot not a god, and I am capable of loading a bag, and I will do it to get the job done.

Sorry, this is reality. Now go and wash the plane and get some hours...

Or download Ice Pilots ( show about Canadian bush pilots), cool tv show, and watch how the one India guy doesnt even last a month, and he has the chance of the coolest job flying a DC4, or DC3 ...but his sisters, husbands, brothers cousin twice removed is having his tonsils removed so he must return to Indian I think is the excuse as to why he leaves... or something like that

[Willie Everlearn]

itsbrokenagain

Don't get me wrong on this but I'm wondering whether or not you are/want to be a pilot?
Pilot's don't wash aeroplanes as part of their job description or responsibilities. They don't hang around or sit in aeroplanes to empty rubbish bins, cross the seat belts or pick up crap on the carpet. Their responsibilities are outside that job description, attitude or anything even close to that. :rolleyes:
Your responsibility as a pilot, especially on a 25 minute turn around is on the flight deck. Paying attention to weather, fuel requirements and flight planning. Not to mention the very critical weight and balance for takeoff performance. n'est pas? :confused:

Did I miss something in your remarks? Or is my 'god complex' oozing a little too much?

Willie :ok:

[jimmygill]

SUNCHASER WROTE:

Let's take a look at how many Indians have immigrated and are working in the USA Airline Industry and have received preferential treatment as a minority. FYI: No comparison pal.
Do not complain to me about Expat's working in India. Or how many Indian immigrant's in the USA who after getting there measly 500 hours go back to India and get in the right seat as born again Indian's. Give me a break. You guy's invade every other country and take jobs and cry spilled milk when people come into your backyard.


1. Less than 1.5% of residents in America are original inhabitants. Those "Indian" immigrants who are getting the preferential treatment in America are American residents/citizens and not Indian Citizens.

2. Measly 500? Can you please explain what number is not measly enough? Haven't ever the regionals in USA hired F/O with that kind of experience.

3. East India Company Was a group of Indian Traders, the Europeans took the Americas without killing a single native American, Japanese nuked themselves, People of Iraq overthrew Saddam Hussain, International Peace Keeping Force is flying drones in Afghanistan. Patels invaded God Blessed America just to run the motels.



cocochannel wrote:
The free flow of qualified foreign labour policy is usually in place when there are shortages of professionals for certain occupation in any given country, and likewise the restricitions when there isn't any. This applies to both the developed and developing countries. This topic seems to be the bone of contention between expats and Indian pilots, when neither can provide any solid statistics disproving each other.

The whole thread began with the idea of getting the statistics. People on both sides of the later established debate read between the lines and jumped in with nonsense.

After having ex-pats in sizable numbers and for several years, the regulator and some section of the industry decided for phaseout. We just wanted to know if that phaseout is on the track. Motivation of industry was cutting the cost, motivation of the regulator was its answerablity to people.


Willie Everlearn wrote:
The Indian Government aren't immune to making mistakes. Getting rid of expat pilots would be just another serious mistake and mean disaster for Indian air lines who need the experienced crew. Now is not the time for the Indian government to be turfing expat pilots. Get serious!


How much experience?


When Indian pilots realize that a 250 hour wonder with a freshly minted CPL and multi engine rating DOESN'T sit in the RHS of a modern jet airliner, these rantings will cease and common sense will prevail.


A Canadian DOESN'T eat with hands, and Indian DOES. An Indian 200 hr 'wonder' or 'no wonder' flies the right seat of the modern jet airliner. This has been the practice here. DOES and DOESN'T differ in different countries. Common sense needs common background.

Willy, I am reproducing this test, may be it will help you in self realization.
Remember the day when you got your CPL, and think what would have been your reaction if you were given these choices.

1. If tomorrow you have an offer from Air Canada to fly their Brand New A320 as a F/O with several scores of passengers behind you. Are you going to say, "Look boss I guess you should hire an experienced pilot for this safety critical job?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"

2. Suppose you selected the later choice, and after 4 years you have around 2500 hrs on A320 as F/O and you also have been working hard and got your ATPL. If the airline now comes with an offer of upgrading you to your left seat, with a 50-80% increase in take-home salary and reduced flight load. Will you say "Look boss I guess you should hire an experienced pilot for this safety critical job and may be I will be ready after I log 2-3000 more hours as F/O?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"

Use your common sense, you can share your answer here or keep it to yourself.

[Capt Apache]

Sorry, this is reality. Now go and wash the plane and get some hours...
Wont have to.Will get straight to the right seat of a Jet.Wish you had too.But not everybody can be so lucky....:ouch:

[TopTup]

Still it seems people are missing the point, well in my opinion......

The expats become so angry for their own reasons, alien to the locals. The expats have the hindsight of working at airlines where stringent standards were maintained, where bribery and corruption is not the norm, where an FO could speak up against a Capt and not be belittled or risk being fired.... They are not used to flying with FO's who are unable to hand fly and aircraft, plan a 3:1 decent profile, fly a raw data approach in Cat I min conditions and 20-25 kts x-wind. So, when they see and hear and experience first hand arrogant brats saying that they are just as qualified to do their job, they get angry.

Many came from doing it "tough". Yes, that involved cleaning aircraft, sweeping the hanger, cleaning the cabin of their 4,6, 19, etc seater... (including the vomit), doing their own flight plans from scratch, weather, etc without the aid of the internet. It taught (us) so much from the ground up. We learnt through mistakes, by getting a call from ATC as to "where do you really want to go?" due an incorrect flight plan, etc. That was part of the "apprenticeship" I suppose. After 1000 hrs on a C210 you might get lucky and fly a light twin, then after 500 hrs PIC of that light twin and with perhaps 2500 hrs total you'll get a job on a turbo prop.

Now, ask me would I like to do it all again if I were offered a 777 FO slot straight from flying school? HELL NO! I too would jump at it!

BUT! What I would EXPECT would be to be trained to the standard required. That DOES NOT happen from what I witnessed. In any decent and professional airline a pilot that crashes the sim, not once but twice, is suspended and given extra training. The training dept are called in to see how did they let this pilot down. If the pilot cannot be bought up to speed he/she is let go. For his/her safety AND that of the public. This is NOT the case at AI! I have the evidence to support that! In the same example the said pilot was given a check0ride to DXB 2 days later, his "batch mate" passed him and I was reprimanded and told to change my review.

So, that is why the expats get angry when they hear brats like yours truly (above my post) believe it is their God-given right to pilot these aircraft and to hell with standards and expertise. They don't want to look elsewhere for a job flying. As one father told me with 2 children out of work with CPL's when I asked if his kids had sort employment as a instructor or anything else in GA such as freight or meat bombing (parachute ops), "They shouldn't have to fly a piston aircraft!!"

Now, the locals are angry as they believe the expats are occupying the seats they should be in. In some ways, they are right. But they are not equipped by way of skill, maturity (as this forum can testify to!), experience or knowledge to do that job.

Those talents MUST be taught to them since for whatever reason they are unable / incapable of getting that experience as (we) once had to. So they see an expat bad mouth a local "250 hr wonder" and react angrilly. A natural instinct. The expats are just as guilty at not seeing the cause of this FO's inabilities as they are themselves. The SYSTEM that is supposed to teach, nurture and train them into competent heavy jet transport pilots has failed them! And they know no better. Again, the expats have the privilege of hindsight from other walks of life in other airlines in other countries. They do not. That's a fact and can't be argued with.

So as per my previous post: go and start lobbying that despicably corrupt DGCA for the training and rights you are supposed to receive! Or, have none of you worked it out yet? How many pockets are being lined by the recruitment agencies? How many DGCA officials, AI officials, etc are on the take? (I heard of a certain AI head of training who just purchased 6, I think, apartments for $250k each. His wife happens to be head of ops and recruitment. The other snake in cohorts in charge of expats also seems to be doing exceptionally well for himself!)

As soon as you can see the barriers as they are AND are able to do something about it then not too much will change.

So, when / if you do get your "birth right" job and are meant to be in the sim for an 8 am start (7 am briefing) but the instructor decides to arrive at 8.45 am, has a coffee and talks crap.....when you ask what profile you are doing and he says "I don't know. What do you want to do?" and when you see your DGCA stamped instrument renewal already completed before you walk in yet do almost none of what has been pre-ticked off, will you question the standard of training you are receiving? HELL NO! You'll be happy with your "[email protected]" email address and the fact that you never had to wash an aircraft.

Would I have been the same? Don't know. I hope not. I was lucky to have been trained in an uncompromising system where fail meant fail, where opening my wallet to turn a fail into a pass would have meant never flying again. After all, that TRE was really only protecting my own life and that of the public.

[Willie Everlearn]

itsbrokenagain

I’m happy for you. If you’re proud of what you do, that’s fine. Obviously, your pilot job is not my pilot job, which is why you’re doing that pilot job and I’m doing this pilot job. Someone’s got to do it.
I wouldn’t apply for let alone accept a job where I’m a jack-of-all-trades and expected to take out the rubbish and make sure the bog is cleaned. Being a god or thinking of oneself as a god, has nothing to do with it. That’s your reference, not mine.
FBOs have crew for that and I should think a corporate operator can well afford ground service during turnarounds? If you one day find yourself in a corner with a low time, low experience F/O, good luck. I hope you find it comforting, for it will certainly be challenging. But that’s why you love flying, isn’t it? For the challenge.
I appreciate what you do. This is how you are gaining your experience and no one can take that away from you. Good luck moving forward.

As for your remaining comments, I’m not sure if there is something lost in translation or if it’s simply an attempt at pretending to be an experienced pilot.
What is your definition of experience by the way? My definition is certainly not based on total hours, just to give you a hint.

[Willie Everlearn]

Jimmygill

To answer your examples:

Q If tomorrow you have an offer from Air Canada to fly their Brand New A320 as a F/O with several scores of passengers behind you. Are you going to say, "Look boss I guess you should hire an experienced pilot for this safety critical job?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"
A. As a newly licenced CPL, I’d jump at it. That’s because I’d be too ignorant back then to completely understand or appreciate what the job entails and the knowledge base I’d need to take into the job. Based on what I’ve had for a flying career thus far, I’d recommend NOT taking the job because I know what is needed for the position and its responsibilities.

Q Suppose you selected the later choice, and after 4 years you have around 2500 hrs on A320 as F/O and you also have been working hard and got your ATPL. If the airline now comes with an offer of upgrading you to your left seat, with a 50-80% increase in take-home salary and reduced flight load. Will you say "Look boss I guess you should hire an experienced pilot for this safety critical job and may be I will be ready after I log 2-3000 more hours as F/O?" or will you say "Alright I am ready?"
A Actually, depending on numbers, if this is the scenario and I have the experience in the RHS as you suggest, then there is likely no reason not to take the upgrade. This is commonplace across the industry. So, I’m not sure what you’re asking here.

This isn’t about hours, it’s about experience. Line experience. The corporate pilot does not have the same line experience as an airline pilot. I am not, just so you understand my point, saying one is ‘better’ than the other for both jobs differ greatly from one another. I’ve taught corporate F/Os with more than 4000 hours who didn’t know what IAS/Mach crossover was. So, you tell me.
It's not about flying the aeroplane for most CPLs can fly the aeroplane. Experience isn't hours, it's what you were exposed to during those hours. It's also about the aircraft type you flew while living those experiences. But I'm assuming most intellectual pilots get it. Judging by the comments, defensive comments I might add, most throughout this thread DON'T get it.

Willie Everlearn :ok:

[Dragon 83]

This topic is about phase out of expats, it's happening but being driven by politics and not sensible policies.

If the airlines need the experience of foreign pilots, they have and should present their requirements to the DGCA. National pilots should be upgraded when experienced, trained and ready. The government should support the airlines and not restrict or impose unrealistic terms for reduction of expats based on emotions, lobby groups etc.

I am flying 15 yrs as an expat for various companies, last 4 in India. I have flown with mostly competent Indian Capt's & F/O's, they are technically sharp and keen to fly. They are however caught in the frenzy of expansion and motivated to move quickly to the left seat and widebody. They are mostly not interested in Command on a turboprop and are often status driven.

I think they need to slow down and fly for experience and development. Most of them are young but in a rush to progress. They are frequently lacking in overall aviation knowledge much of which comes with time and practical knowledge not just technical expertise.

They grew up into a different environment. They need to put professionalism first, follow Sop's, learn to follow rules, be patient, open to discussion and constructive criticism.

[rdr]

I must add my opinion to the excellent posts by Top Tup & Dragon. Indian aviation is at an extremely critical crossroad, fuelled by rapid expansion and unchartered waters.
The environment the local pilots have been placed in, is most unfortunate for the country, industry, and mostly, themselves. This is why there will be endless debate on just about every issue, from expats, competence, promotion, and so on.

It will be very hard to evolve a proper mechanism when the entire lot, from the DGCA, Air India, MOCA, Aviation Minister, press, politicians, babus, are lacking basic knowledge in every aspect of the industry.
To give you an example, a major carrier is, as we speak, terminating the services of some senior expat TRE's due to the 4 year rule, while hiring the same number from the gulf countries. When approached, the DGCA has given the silly reason that it is neccessary as pilots become a security risk to India after 4 years of flying.
How do Airline owners, CEO's, employees and others make any informed decision to their commitments ? At every stage there is the chance of illogical situations arising, due to the chosen few doing their best to safeguard their personal interests ahead of of others. There is not only a mad scramble to get a bite of this burgeoning pie, but also added aspect of ego. Never mind if things are not correct, but i must be in control and stamp every piece of paper along the way.

The pilots themselves will not be able to correct any industrial stupidity as they will simply be black marked and shot, never to be employed in any sphere. So they take a path of least resistance, blame those who cannot hurt you to rake up controversy, and hopefully gain from any fallout.

Any path the sector takes now, will have far reaching consequences in the IMMEDIATE, and, near future, AND WILL AFFECT EVERYONE.
The lessons from Korean and China, the banning of Indonesian and Pakistani a/c, amongst other countries to western nations etc, should be sobering thoughts. If one feels that this sort of situation may not arise, then remember about the story of one of the best airlines of the 60's, which has become a basket case now. Air India.

Recently, an Indian F/O told me about how much he was learning from expat commanders. When queried if he mentioned this to local commanders ?
His answer was........"you got to be joking."
I guess this was an unfair question, but seriously, i do feel that there is a lot more ground to be covered in the cockpit, before the galloping horse is allowed to bolt.

[Dagar]

willyou never learn,IAF pilots are one of the best out there,try googlin IAF SU 30 pilots at Red flag exercise.And the best airline in the world(SIA) comes to India to recruit pilots,I wonder why they do not go to Canada:}

[Willie Everlearn]

dagar

Not sure what points you're trying to make here, as I didn't say Indian air force pilots were no good as pilots. I did imply certain good old boy attitudes exist (which are evident in our own air force pilots) but when you have 'attitude' you may have to deliver. Many don't deliver, regardless of whether or not they're ex-air force or civilian. But again, that wasn't my point. The good old boys club was the point I'd hoped you were clever enough to catch. The cracker is the DGCAs' concern that expats pose security concerns for Indian national security. What? Like Google Earth doesn't?

Red Flag. OK, I guess the only come back I have for that one is check out the Canadian Air Forces' contributions. You'll find they do pretty well for themselves as well. So, good for us (Canada and India). :D

I know a number of Canadian pilots with SIA, and it's no surprise they don't actively recruit pilots in Canada. Recruiting pilots in India doesn't say a lot. Although, with the boom in Indian aviation, why would an Indian national look for a flying in job anywhere else? It may have more to do with the cultural fabric of Singapore than any connection with Canada. More Indian lineage in Singapura than white anglo saxon. Just sayin'...although if many more of you guys immigrate to Canada, I may have just the connection with India I need. yeah? :eek:
Cathay Pacific recruit here, does that count?

rdr

Well said.

Willie :ok:
(Like your Tourism Board says, Incredible India. An amazing country.)

[Capt Apache]

@Top Tup

But they are not equipped by way of skill, maturity (as this forum can testify to!), experience or knowledge to do that job.




Dear Sir,

My only suspicion is that even if I did infact acquire the necessary skill,maturity,experience and knowledge, people like you will still rule me out(along with my other countrymen) on the pretex that we lack Common Sense.(Remember... you mentioned that on another thread)

Although I am sympathetic towards your experience in AI, I am surprised that you haven't met some of the most brilliant and professional Indian Pilots that I have in my career.I still feel that your perspective is skewed and that your opinions are selective.

I do however agree with a lot of things you have said.

[fullforward]

Please do a favor to yourselves, your career and ultimately your country:

Take the last Top Tup and rdr posts, make enlarged prints (1 x 1m should be nice) make some copies, frame it and put on display at various locations on your home: office, bathroom, room etc. Promise to read it at least 4 times a day. Everything is there, accurate, unbiased, honest.
Enough of the endless and tiresome rubbish!.:ok:

[flyjet787]

Expat pilots likely to get another year to fly Indian skies

Saurabh Sinha, TNN, Apr 15, 2010, 04.29am IST

NEW DELHI: Caught between the demands of Indian carriers to extend the July 30 deadline for returning 600-odd expat pilots employed with them and the rising number of jobless desi co-pilots, the government may give a final extension of one year for sending back the foreigners. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has got a number of representations from airlines here, who essentially say that their services would be severely affected and many planes grounded if the July 30 deadline is not extended.

The regulator is now learnt to be planning to give one more year subject to condition that airlines ensure career progression of Indian pilots. The idea: Only when desi co-pilots are upgraded to captains, will airlines start hiring the over 3,000 unemployed co-pilots. "We want this to be the final extension and are trying to devise ways to ensure airlines keep their promise. The extension may have to be given as safety cannot be compromised," said a senior official.

On their part, airlines have told DGCA that there is a paucity of experienced Indian commanders. "It is essential to have the right experience level in cockpit for safety reasons. This will be jeopardized if airlines are unable to hire foreign commanders and have to pair newly upgraded Indian commanders with low experienced Indian co-pilots," said an airline official. They have told the regulator that it is essential to have experienced pilots for safe flying in monsoon and winter fog that may not be possible if July 30 deadline is not extended.

"Keeping experienced foreign commanders will allow airlines to recruit Indian co-pilots while still maintaining required safety levels in the cockpit. After recommended training, the fresh recruits can be paired with an experienced commander," said the airline official. In fact some airlines are seeking a three-year extension for retaining expat pilots, something that has not gone down well with the powers that be.

Expat pilots likely to get another year to fly Indian skies - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Expat-pilots-likely-to-get-another-year-to-fly-Indian-skies/articleshow/5806742.cms)

I am pretty sure these extensions will continue for the next couple of years:uhoh:..

[jimmygill]

Please do a favor to yourselves, your career and ultimately your country:

Take the last Top Tup and rdr posts, make enlarged prints (1 x 1m should be nice) make some copies, frame it and put on display at various locations on your home: office, bathroom, room etc. Promise to read it at least 4 times a day. Everything is there, accurate, unbiased, honest.
Enough of the endless and tiresome rubbish!.


Thanks fullforward for your bright Idea, I am already trying to figure out which one of Ansel Adams or Raghu Rais need to get out from my office, bathroom, room etc. to accommodate your recommendation.

Oh, yes... and please don't hesitate in future to give such suggestions.

[jimmygill]

When I read this mail first, I was happy to get something of value in this thread. But a friend suggested that I read it 4 times a day. This is a nice post and has its own merit, but I will comment on this to tell why some of us are so in awe of this post, and why this post is not an unbiased one.


Still it seems people are missing the point, well in my opinion......

The expats become so angry for their own reasons, alien to the locals. The expats have the hindsight of working at airlines where stringent standards were maintained, where bribery and corruption is not the norm, where an FO could speak up against a Capt and not be belittled or risk being fired.... They are not used to flying with FO's who are unable to hand fly and aircraft, plan a 3:1 decent profile, fly a raw data approach in Cat I min conditions and 20-25 kts x-wind. So, when they see and hear and experience first hand arrogant brats saying that they are just as qualified to do their job, they get angry.



The expats like this paragraph because it sings paens to thier background. The locals will hate this post because all have been painted with thick brush of arrogant-brat and without any debate author has declared that the LHS job is an expats right.

One doesn't need to be a literary genius to note the bias. On the other hand rdr's post is much less biased, but I promise I will come back to that in another post.



Many came from doing it "tough". Yes, that involved cleaning aircraft, sweeping the hanger, cleaning the cabin of their 4,6, 19, etc seater... (including the vomit), doing their own flight plans from scratch, weather, etc without the aid of the internet. It taught (us) so much from the ground up. We learnt through mistakes, by getting a call from ATC as to "where do you really want to go?" due an incorrect flight plan, etc. That was part of the "apprenticeship" I suppose. After 1000 hrs on a C210 you might get lucky and fly a light twin, then after 500 hrs PIC of that light twin and with perhaps 2500 hrs total you'll get a job on a turbo prop.


An overwhelming number of local brats surely didn't have it this "tough". I am maintaining the quotation marks because I have a gut feeling that neither I nor toptup feel that such a task is actually a tough task in the real sense of the word. But I am sure of one thing, the tough task was a paid task. And the pilot were paid at least half of the per hour flying pay for such ground tasks.
In India on the other hand in one tenth of the hourly pilot wages you can hire full time staff to do that cleaning and sweeping job for 9 hours a day.
So I guess in current economic conditions pilots in India will be bereaved of this dignity of labor which most expats experienced during their early career.

Student pilots at aviation academies in India don't even push back the C-150 into the parking slot. Before startup they have left wingman, right wingman and one fellow with fire extinguisher ready. Before parking they are marshalled back into parking space, the student and instructor exit the aircraft and the "other" workers push back the aircraft in the parking lot. These "other" workers are usually the would be aircraft maintenance 'professionals' on an unpaid apprenticeship.

Judging by these practices even early career in flight schools and/or charter companies is never going to be "tough" for the local pilot. Any one in with sensibility will understand that I am not bragging here, I am just presenting what surrounds the 'life style' of 'local' pilots.

The socio-economic conditions in India will guarantee that a working pilot will not get a tough initial career. This doesn't mean that there will be no good pilots in India.




Now, ask me would I like to do it all again if I were offered a 777 FO slot straight from flying school? HELL NO! I too would jump at it!

BUT! What I would EXPECT would be to be trained to the standard required. That DOES NOT happen from what I witnessed. In any decent and professional airline a pilot that crashes the sim, not once but twice, is suspended and given extra training. The training dept are called in to see how did they let this pilot down. If the pilot cannot be bought up to speed he/she is let go. For his/her safety AND that of the public. This is NOT the case at AI! I have the evidence to support that! In the same example the said pilot was given a check0ride to DXB 2 days later, his "batch mate" passed him and I was reprimanded and told to change my review.


The intent of my asking that question was to establish that safety is not achieved merely by relying on individuals to take decisions with safety as first priority. Pilots and other aviation professionals like every other individuals live in a world of material, and there are going to be times when the consideration of safety is going to take a back seat. It must be a goal of a safe airline or efficient regulator bring in policies which increases the likelihood that safety become first priority in as many decision making processes as possible.

While you may have the expectation of reasonable training by company before taking the RHS seat, several of your school mates may not have the same expectations. You do not represent all expats just like the arrogant brat doesn't represent all locals.





So, that is why the expats get angry when they hear brats like yours truly (above my post) believe it is their God-given right to pilot these aircraft and to hell with standards and expertise. They don't want to look elsewhere for a job flying. As one father told me with 2 children out of work with CPL's when I asked if his kids had sort employment as a instructor or anything else in GA such as freight or meat bombing (parachute ops), "They shouldn't have to fly a piston aircraft!!"


That father had spent around 100,000 USD on training his kids, he must be having another 100,000 USD ready to pay in bribes for paying to the HR/Trg Head/Ops Manager, it doesn't make any economic sense for him to expect his sons flying for piston engine operators in Africa.

Lets get a practical perspective on this. Lets think of two 250 hrs wonders Cpt. A and Cpt. B.

A and B both got their training from USA, both came back to India and got their licenses converted. At the end of the training both of them still had 40k USD each in their savings accounts.
Captain A choses to get a GA job in Africa, flying piston engine twins on survival wages. B on the other hand chose to stay in India, and after six months he got hold of agents to get him a job with say Indigo as f/o on A320 by emptying his bank account.

B was happily flying the twins in scenic Africa after two years his contract was over, he logged 1500 hours flying time and got himself an ATPL. So he is back home with 1500 hrs and an ATPL.

Then A & B compare their bank balances, A had around 45k, while B had around 30k.
Unfortunately industry is down and none is hiring. Its difficult to find agents who can get B a job in any airline as an F/O even for a 60k bribe.

Even if B can get a job in Indigo, he will be much down the seniority, despite his ATPL and excellent general aviation experience.

Who took a better career decision?

Having said that if the 250 hr wonders were not subjected to employment barrier in USA/Canada/Australia, they will still be choosing to go for the general aviation job, because not all of them at the end of the CPL training are left with 40k USD in thier bank accounts.



Now, the locals are angry as they believe the expats are occupying the seats they should be in. In some ways, they are right. But they are not equipped by way of skill, maturity (as this forum can testify to!), experience or knowledge to do that job.

Those talents MUST be taught to them since for whatever reason they are unable / incapable of getting that experience as (we) once had to. So they see an expat bad mouth a local "250 hr wonder" and react angrilly. A natural instinct. The expats are just as guilty at not seeing the cause of this FO's inabilities as they are themselves. The SYSTEM that is supposed to teach, nurture and train them into competent heavy jet transport pilots has failed them! And they know no better. Again, the expats have the privilege of hindsight from other walks of life in other airlines in other countries. They do not. That's a fact and can't be argued with.
[QUOTE]


I just hope the choice of word 'incapable' was an accident. Because if it were not an accident the bias is obvious.

[QUOTE]
So as per my previous post: go and start lobbying that despicably corrupt DGCA for the training and rights you are supposed to receive! Or, have none of you worked it out yet? How many pockets are being lined by the recruitment agencies? How many DGCA officials, AI officials, etc are on the take? (I heard of a certain AI head of training who just purchased 6, I think, apartments for $250k each. His wife happens to be head of ops and recruitment. The other snake in cohorts in charge of expats also seems to be doing exceptionally well for himself!)

As soon as you can see the barriers as they are AND are able to do something about it then not too much will change.


It will only be the really foolish or the really innocent ones who can't see these barriers. You were once inside the system, being a TRE how much dent could you make into these barriers, and how much do you expect the 250 hrs wonder to make while he is still outside the whorehouse, and desperate to get in. I and many others successfully bypassed the despicably corrupt DGCA and training industry in India and got ourselves good initial training. There are thousand shortcomings in Indian aviation, which one if any should we tackle first should be our prerogative, and we thought tackling the falsehood of promised-expat-phase-out will be best for 'us' (the unemployed 250 hr wonder). Then why do you direct us to expend our energies in lobbying DGCA to remove other 1000 barriers. If there is corruption in expat hiring shouldn't the expats be lobbying for it. If Air-India has poor and corrupt training practices, shouldn't the existing AI pilots be lobbying for better standards.




So, when / if you do get your "birth right" job and are meant to be in the sim for an 8 am start (7 am briefing) but the instructor decides to arrive at 8.45 am, has a coffee and talks crap.....when you ask what profile you are doing and he says "I don't know. What do you want to do?" and when you see your DGCA stamped instrument renewal already completed before you walk in yet do almost none of what has been pre-ticked off, will you question the standard of training you are receiving? HELL NO! You'll be happy with your "[email protected]" email address and the fact that you never had to wash an aircraft.

Would I have been the same? Don't know. I hope not. I was lucky to have been trained in an uncompromising system where fail meant fail, where opening my wallet to turn a fail into a pass would have meant never flying again. After all, that TRE was really only protecting my own life and that of the public.



Hello no! I will not question the standards. The guy who can pass you without doing anything, can also fail you when you do everything. What the TRE did was a display of power. He just said "you can't touch me, take your IR/LR and go fly." I will do what you did, you complied. You did it by resigning and I may not have an option to resign immediately, but yes after a few years in AI I can quit too, can't I.
In the quoted paragraph your bias is shown by your assumption that You'll be happy with your "[email protected]" email address and the fact that you never had to wash an aircraft.


You were or may be even now are a TRE, 'lack of prejudice' is a professional requirement from you, it is at topmost level (5th) on Maslow's Hierarchy along with morality. I and other 250 hr wonders are struggling at the second level for employment, we may have to forgo morality to push our selves to higher levels and hopefully will keep some seed of morality to build it up again at 5th level.

That I can fly the 777 raw data within +-50 feet is not going to get me job, what is going to get me job is the corrupt AI Training Head, may be he needs money to furnish the new apartments, may be he can make good use of the 40k USD I have in my savings account.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Maslow's_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg

[shanx]

I still fail to understand how all the expats continue to paint all Indian national wannabes and employed pilots with the same brush.

On an average, expats have lived and worked in India for at the most 4-5 years.

We (Indian wannabes and employed pilots) were born here, have grown up here and lived here for the past 20-30 years dealing with this monster of a bureaucracy and the system in place affecting us in almost every aspect of our daily lives.

Whether it is the frustration in getting your name registered on election rolls, getting a voter card, the exasperation of trying to get a driver's licence honestly, a ration card, dealing with the rude, retarded government officers and employees of the telephone department, the electricity board .. all the way up to dealing with the WPC or the DGCA etc ...
we know the harsh realities ... and most expats Im afraid conveniently ignore all these facts before posting and/or bashing up the Indian wannabes and aspirants.


Back to the topic ...

For the last time ... not all wannabes are simply sitting at home waiting for a miracle to happen.

Many of us have tried to look for work in the USA/Canada/Australia/NZ/Middle East as flight instructors, ground instructors or dispatchers.
So far, nothing has worked out on that front for various reasons I mentioned in an earlier post.

Yes, a couple of my friends are working in the USA right now as flight instructors and are getting close to an FAA ATP. BUT these guys are Green Card (permanent residents) of the USA and hence have the right to work there.
Yeah, there are a few others whom I know are working in USA and Canada, but they are all paying to fly.
They paid school for instructor ratings and are now paying for logging a certain number of "dual given" time in their logbooks, and also paying for accomodation and are getting ZERO SALARY.

There are a few other guys working in some flight schools in Texas as flight instructors for free, and in their part time are working illegally in gas stations, malls and hotels/motels.

Yes, there's ofcourse the option of marrying an American girl (plenty available on contract who do it for $$$) and thereby get USA/Canada residency, but no thanks ! .. Im happy with my current status here at home.

I'd rather wait patiently for an airline/charter job here in India, meanwhile being occupied with other work and refreshing my knowledge/concepts on aviation subjects, rather than prostituting myself in foreign land.

(btw .. a few guys I know are planning to do that soon ... the marrying an American/Canadian woman option .. they aparently were inspired by some of the expats's posts here and are determined to struggle their way up :E)

[Arabian Mustang]

There are a few other guys working in some flight schools in Texas as flight instructors for free, and in their part time are working illegally in gas stations, malls and hotels/motels.



Who do you think a potential employer would give preference to, a guy who prostituted himself in foreign land and has 5 times more flying hours than you or some one who has absolutely no idea about flying an airplane other than in a controlled training enviornment??:}

Its pretty easy to sit in front of your computer and moan about not getting a job on the RHS of Airbus or boeing. Ehhh!:ugh:you people will never learn..

[jimmygill]

Who do you think a potential employer would give preference to, a guy who prostituted himself in foreign land and has 5 times more flying hours than you or some one who has absolutely no idea about flying an airplane other than in a controlled training enviornment??


In case the employer is in India, he cares only about the the money I can give him, and nothing else.

If we here knew that the employer will have any other preference we will have been going for that.

[shanx]

Who do you think a potential employer would give preference to, a guy who prostituted himself in foreign land and has 5 times more flying hours than you or some one who has absolutely no idea about flying an airplane other than in a controlled training enviornment??http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

@Arabian Mustang

Well, jimmygill has already replied to that.

But let me add a few more points....

First off, such a naive question only exposes your sheer ignorance about the job scene for a fresher/low time pilot job applicant in India.
Forget 5 times my flying experience buddy, you may have 10 times the experience on multi engine aircraft and an ATPL, YET, you will be placed in the VERY SAME CATEGORY along with all the other thousands of CPL holders with 200 hours whenever any airline starts hiring here.
You may have an MS, MBA, Phd etc, but that will make absolutely NO DIFFERENCE. You will still be called for tests or interviews and other assessments along with all the other thousands of 200 hour guys and girls with a CPL and a high school certificate.
This is the hard fact and there's absolutely NOTHING you can do about it, unless of course you are a big shot with a father or uncle or other close friend who is a powerful politician, a big bureaucrat, or someone high up in the hierarchy of the airline management.


Its pretty easy to sit in front of your computer and moan about not getting a job on the RHS of Airbus or boeing. Ehhh!:ugh:you people will never learn..

The same way it is so easy for people to write BS like you have done without doing any kind of homework or study on the realities of the place and geographic location you're talking about.

and by the way, Assuming you're from one of the western nations who are all for prostituting themselves in the name of "working the long hard and tough way up", ... it is exactly because of the likes of you that the whole profession and the industry is in such a mess particularly in the USA and much of the western world.

It is very easy to moan about degrading T&c's, exploitation by bean counters, PFJ schemes, pilots getting shafted, etc etc on pprune and other forums.

If only there was a serious effort against outfits like eaglejet (USA) etc. and the whole concept of PFJ or P2F etc, with a strong move to bring about a legislation against the whole thing, many of the pilots crying out in forums now would never have seen such pathetic state of affiars.

If the salaries of Captains, TRI's, TRE's on wide body a/c in the USA etc are comparable to those of walmart employees with laughable t&c's, it is only because of pilots who prostitute themselves and bring down the standards of this profession.

[TopTup]

I’ll stand by every word I typed. However, using your poetic license to voluntarily highlight certain words in bold that I did not in order to press your opinions is not welcomed. It’s quite cheap really.

I have never meant to paint every unemployed or “250 hr wonder” in India as a spoilt brat. My words are selective to those who sit at home, day after day, who whinge, complain on forums like this who haven’t the strength of character to get off their lazy and conceited ar$se to search for any job in aviation, any job to fly an aircraft anywhere. Those who are continually studying to better themselves and who have hit the road to find employment anywhere in order to build their hours and start their long road of gaining experience have only my utmost respect and sympathies.

Now BIAS? I am as biased as is the person who goes to self publicized restaurant and is sent to hospital with severe food poisoning, who reports this to proper authorities and then goes on the advise all his or friends to never go to that restaurant again. But then sits back to see this same restaurant and its employees cheerfully boasting about how their greatest in standards and hygiene is beyond question. Biased, then in this case (in my case) I’ll plead guilty.

Bias? Against those who claim that correct and strict RT is not needed, against those who cannot fly an aircraft without the use of AP, FD's or AT, against those who believe and advocate that you only have to be of average skill and knowledge to fly a sophisticated heavy jet transport, against those who abuse the FO or the FA's, who smoke in the cockpit, who violate SOPs by matter of arrogant habit, against those who live by a corrupt system promoting low and dangerous standards..... I AM GUILTY. And damn proud to be too. (And I refer to ALL sectors and nationalities for those about to try the pathetic role to claim racism, as is so often the case here).

You want expats to understand, respect and appreciate “The socio-economic conditions in India will guarantee that a working pilot will not get a tough initial career. This doesn't mean that there will be no good pilots in India.”

The tough tasks you speak are and still will be VERY tough! To pack your bags and drive continuously for 3 or 4 days (as I know pilots in Australia do, eg Sydney to Kununurra!) to sleep in their car, to bath and shower by the roadside, to then don suit and tie, CV in hand to ask for job in a dirty and dusty hanger, to be told “No”, so hence drive another 12 or so hours to the next outback GA establishment. Yes, they leave family behind, girlfriends/boyfriends behind, a potential job and Daddy’s firm in order to follow unquestioned passion and vocation. Some look toward Papua New Guinea and others Africa. They arrive with uniform in hand, log book in briefcase and Davies “Handling the Big Jets” under their arm.

No, as has been pointed out to you already, you are ill informed and ill educated in the GA scene in countries like Australia, NZ, the US or Africa. These pilots are almost always paid for flight time only. Cleaning the aircraft, sweeping the hangers, refueling your own aircraft are all part of the job, and if you do not do it there are 100’s of fresh CPL holders who have made the same trek waiting outside that hanger to do what you say you “don’t have to” because with a fresh CPL such tasks are below me!

I know of 2 x colleagues sons who have swept hangers, assisted in the office and general maintenance hangers for FREE in the pure hope that they’ll be in the right place and the right time for the job. They are praying that the most senior pilot on the Chieftan or C404 gets that SECOND OFFICER job at QF, ANZ or CX so he can be the one to replace him, starting on a C172 or C210. In the evenings he/she works at the local bar, drives taxis or takes tourists on mining tours in other spare time. I heard of a pilot who arrived at a hanger, was told there was no job and so began the journey to the next township. 2 hours down the road he was called by the CP and told he had a charter that afternoon. Could he make it in time? (Rare, but it does happen! Time and place.)

Open your eyes and read the Dunnunda & Godzone forums, or those covering the GA scene in Africa and PNG. When you read what these pilots do to gain experience, to better themselves to be more competitive for a job in 2 or 3 or 4 years time then perhaps my opinion of arrogant little brats not having the spine to do such things may be, if but only slightly, warranted. Instead you comment on matters you no nothing about.

So excuse me if the Indian pilot hasn’t the integrity to respect the expat pilot who can park and taxi his own aircraft without a wing-walker, who is able to safely refuel a light aircraft, who can tell you in great detail about Frise Ailerons, about a variable incidence elevator, about trim tab positioning and usage, about vortex generators, sweep, dihedral vs anhedral, about every antenna, receiver, transmitter and wire placed on, beside or on top of the fuselage: all borne out of cleaning and polishing an aircraft and learning as they go.

So, your example of Pilot A vs Pilot B bears no water with me. (And please, stop calling a child who once did a circuit in a C152 solo and logged 0.3 of a flight hour under the “Command” section of a log book as “Captain”). So, I’ll answer your question with a question: Who would rather employ? Pilot X or showed initiative, integrity, passion and dedication to his career, who went out and hunted for means and ways to further their aviation credentials by way of flying experience and education, or the Pilot Y who sat and b!tched day in and day out on PPRuNe about not walking straight into a heavy jet transport? Who despise those expats with 25000 hrs for taking the job they can do with a brand new CPL and 200 hrs! What’s wrong with getting off your lazing and arrogant, spoilt tails and looking for work to better your credentials and then the very second an interview comes you time off to attend it? That’s the way it is almost always done in many, many, many other countries in the world. Oh! Excuse me, I forgot: “He / she should have to!!!”

Shanx, you raise the point this is just the way it is in Indian aviation; that credentials, experience and integrity bear no weight in job placement? I cannot argue with you as I have no foundation point to. However, I find this very hard to believe.

So, the father who spent $100k USD and appears to be out of pocket? HA!!! Welcome to aviation!!!!!! Compared to colleagues of mine from United, etc, this guy has gotten off lightly! Why doesn’t he kick his kids up the backside, demand they get out and better their flying experience and credentials? Nah…. Again, “they shouldn’t have to.” So, who’s the damn fool?

The term INCAPABLE. I used it in reference to the fact that the GA scene in India is not as established as it is in other parts of the world. If my reference inferred differently then I apolgise, but that is what I meant. But, if this is the case, then what’s wrong with looking at Africa or PNG, or Sth East Asia? Having said that I will bet that very few kids have even tried the GA circuit in India to look for work.

As a TRE I pride myself on assessments based purely on the regulatory authority’s standards, the airline’s SOPs and the candidate’s adherence to those standards. For you to suggest otherwise is insulting in the extreme. I will pass or fail a pilot purely on those terms and I do not care if he is my “batch mate” my brother, my uncle, my best friend’s father. That attitude was not welcomed at AI.

My credentials outside of flying stem from 2 x tertiary degrees in the field of Aviation (science and psychology divisions). I am a certified CRM instructor and facilitator recognized in both the FAA and JAA. Am not going to annoy the moderators of this forum and cut ‘n paste my papers, research or programs to do with CRM and HF. Your ability to do so does not bear any weight other then a pretty pyramid table. Your credentials to do so are, well, boring. (While still valid they are also very old and common knowledge in the CRM field, by the way. If you want to research the latest developments in CRM start studying the fields of CRM/TER).

“That I can fly the 777 raw data within +-50 feet is not going to get me job, what is going to get me job is the corrupt AI Training Head, may be he needs money to furnish the new apartments, may be he can make good use of the 40k USD I have in my savings account.” [Jimmygill]

Well, that just about sums it all up for “Incredible” India and aviation! What a sad, sad, sad and pitiful indictment on both yourself and profession. Why not cease lobbying the government and DGCA to get rid of expats and / or to not bother about training inexperienced pilots to the required standards?? Instead, how about set a petition to the ICAO (I’m sure you’ll get many thousands of signatures) for a recognized Indian ACBL (Airline Career Bribed License). It appears that is all you both want and need, coming from your words.

After all, as you state: “we may have to forgo morality” [Jimmygill]

Conscience? Integrity? Honor? Airmanship? Professionalism?

To not be able to handle an aircraft +/- 50 ft is a FAIL. If you go beneath an MSA, MDA or DDH by 1 ft under IMC then it is a FAIL! Sorry to have to quote the minimum instrument rating knowledge to you, but you don’t seem to know or care. Flying 50 ft high or low on an ILS? Yeah, real safe! Add cold weather to that and you just turned even more deadly.

Jimmygill, I thought better of you.

So, that’s me signing off from yet another thread. Arguing against imbecilia, of ignorance, against people without the slightest hint of integrity or knowledge to support an opinion has turned boring and beneath the standards of airmanship that I would choose to employ. My high horse and I’ll ride it.

See ya kiddies! Be lucky!!! Because Safety isn’t really a concern of yours.

For those with the integrity, and passion to follow their dream and vocation then I wish you all the very best. My posts have only ever meant to highlight the despicable scene and standards at airlines like AI and raise some attention to them, as well as to argue against ill informed agendas and those supporting these standards. Never against yourselves. Your own conscience will tell you that.

Shun mediocrity and work hard to achieve your goals. You’ll have to but the rewards are worth it.

[profsx]

totally back that up!!!

[fullforward]

" So, that’s me signing off from yet another thread. Arguing against imbecilia, of ignorance, against people without the slightest hint of integrity or knowledge to support an opinion has turned boring and beneath the standards of airmanship that I would choose to employ. My high horse and I’ll ride it."

Fully agree with you. Unfortunately we have to consider that types like Jimmigirl and the likes grew up (?) amid this garbage and will not evolve into anything that resembles a civilized, fully safety oriented aviation culture. They prefer loose an arm than to choose their mindset.

Unfortunately again, it would take some smoking debris and hundreds of lifes claim before they can learn something, no matter the same mistakes were made in the past (KAL, African and Latin America carriers). And this is just a matter of time to happen, given the chilling FOQA data received every day, as a friend of mine (indian, bu the way) that works on a safety department of an indian carrier, receive everyday: unstabilized approaches, poor airmanship, lack of proper discipline that would mean a termination on every airline worth it's name are considered on a paternalistic way, like simple and excusable mistakes...

Until that, we're justing loosing our time on this endless rubish.:ugh:

[Capt Apache]

We (Indian wannabes and employed pilots) were born here, have grown up here and lived here for the past 20-30 years dealing with this monster of a bureaucracy and the system in place affecting us in almost every aspect of our daily lives.




I think this whole argument has less to do with safety and more to do with 'We had it tough,so you should have it tougher'....We already did... by the time we grew into our teens


Forget 5 times my flying experience buddy, you may have 10 times the experience on multi engine aircraft and an ATPL, YET, you will be placed in the VERY SAME CATEGORY along with all the other thousands of CPL holders with 200 hours whenever any airline starts hiring here


You are absolutely right.You can go to Africa and get tons of experience .But if you don't have the money for endorsement on that Great Big Jet...You will still be nowhere.

You were once inside the system, being a TRE how much dent could you make into these barriers, and how much do you expect the 250 hrs wonder to make while he is still outside the whorehouse, and desperate to get in.

That pretty much sums it up for the Top Tups...Expect a 250 hr guy to change the world instead of trying to get a job.:hmm:


So excuse me if the Indian pilot hasn’t the integrity to respect the expat pilot who can park and taxi his own aircraft without a wing-walker, who is able to safely refuel a light aircraft, who can tell you in great detail about Frise Ailerons, about a variable incidence elevator, about trim tab positioning and usage, about vortex generators, sweep, dihedral vs anhedral, about every antenna, receiver, transmitter and wire placed on, beside or on top of the fuselage: all borne out of cleaning and polishing an aircraft and learning as they go.




And you still think you are not biased.I thought you only had problems with people who cant fly raw data, but it looks like we dont know anything at all Sir...I am sorry we exist.

[Mike_Kilo_Sierra]

Having been through the entire thread, I don't really see the point of all the arguing, bickering, name calling. What good are we doing? Nobody at DGCA is reading this. Even if they are, it's too much of a hassle to bring about any change. Like someone once said, be the change. But slugging it out in forums will not do any justice to the cause.

I'm really nobody to even be qualified to talk about anything related to the expats. But I think I'll make an exception. Expats are here because they are needed. It's competition, it is up to us to get better and get those flying jobs. Competition is there in every line. If you really look, other fields are far more competitive. So blaming them for being here isn't the best way of handling this situation.

One thing I've realised about aviation. It isn't cheap. If you don't have the resources, it can be frustrating when the expenses just keep piling up. Plan Bs are more important than your Plan A. Plan B will help you put food on the table and if you're lucky let you fly to build your hours. I've been at it for more than a year. Sure it's frustrating but do I have any other option? No. So I keep plugging at it one measly hour at a time. Frankly getting a loan in this environment is not the best idea, especially when everybody knows about the job scene for a low time pilot. That loan puts a student under immense pressure to get a job to pay back the loan and this leads to frustration. No matter how much we are attracted to aviation, being in debt is just not worth it.

The GA scene in India isn't great. But it isn't non-existent. You have to go the remote places and sweat it out at hangers and airstrips just so somebody might give you a chance to fly that rusty old C152. Contacts are very important, if you are not a people person...it becomes that much more difficult. Believe me after having been in the automotive industry for more than four years, contacts are everything and aviation is no different.

Talking about quality of pilots in India. I was surprised to see some people training along side who simply lacked the aptitude to be a pilot. I know a lot of people who barely have 50hrs, but have a captain with their name. So there must be some truth to it when the expats say some people are arrogant and simply don't deserve to be where they are.

But not everyone is the same. There are a lot of people who will make good pilots in the future. My appeal to the expats, be a little considerate...the Indian road to aviation is a lot tougher than you might think. :)

The bottom line is, no amount of arguing on pprune is going to make any difference to the indian aviation scene.

MKS out.

[shanx]

Dear Top_up,

When you were faced with the pathetic standards in AI and the despicable situation of clearing an undeserving pilot (who crashed sim) in a sim check, you HAD A CHOICE... either clear the pilot and be a part of the mess OR simply QUIT.

You had this privilege because of your credentials.

Do you really think a 250 hour CPL holder in India would have this privilege ?

A fresh trainee or rookie FO in an airline in India is about as significant as a grain of sand in the beach.

A 200 hour CPL holder trying to take on the Airline management, the DGCA, the civil aviation ministry etc and to try bring about changes in standards, and quality of training etc would be akin to a new born deer fighting a pack of wolves !!!

At this level and juncture, the most I can do as a fresh CPL holder would be to tell every other wannabe that I meet about the dangers and perils of falling for Pay-To-Fly programs and how prostituting oneself and paying to fly would only be damaging to ourselves and the whole industry in the long run.

On the other hand sir, I can assure you that if, and when in the future, I ever get anywhere close to your level and credentials, I will also not bend over to the corrupt and pathetic systems in place, and let safety, ethics and professionalism prevail.

[jimmygill]

@TopTup

I haven't seen you conduct an aviation check, I haven't flown with you, I know you by what you write, and nothing else. Unable and incapable are not interchangeable, where unable would have sufficed you supplied incapable. That too without limiting the object to which the adjective may be applicable.

If you were a non native English speaker I will understand it to be a minor linguistic lapse, but unfortunately thats not the case. Your prejudice is apparent in the way you write. You don't have to plead guilty, I am not the judge here, it appeared to me that you are biased and I just mentioned it here. You are your own judge.


Who would rather employ? Pilot X or showed initiative, integrity, passion and dedication to his career, who went out and hunted for means and ways to further their aviation credentials by way of flying experience and education, or the Pilot Y who sat and b!tched day in and day out on PPRuNe about not walking straight into a heavy jet transport? Who despise those expats with 25000 hrs for taking the job they can do with a brand new CPL and 200 hrs! What’s wrong with getting off your lazing and arrogant, spoilt tails and looking for work to better your credentials and then the very second an interview comes you time off to attend it? That’s the way it is almost always done in many, many, many other countries in the world. Oh! Excuse me, I forgot: “He / she should have to!!!”

I don't know how to answer this question, because its less of a question and more of a diatribe. But yes, if I had an aviation firm and I had to hire a pilot for myself I will hire Pilot X. But the fact of the matter remains, I am not hiring, someone else is. You yourself know what kind of people those someone else are. I hope you understand not everyone has right to work in all other countries.

And please, stop calling a child who once did a circuit in a C152 solo and logged 0.3 of a flight hour under the “Command” section of a log book as “Captain”

You walked straight into the trap, and yet all else are just 'kiddies' for you.

Jimmygill, I thought better of you

Trust me, you will never be disappointed.

But do tell me should I let off B777 F/O job with Air India, because they are a scum airline.
Bear in mind, If I don't take that someone else who may be 1/10th as competent as me is going to take up that job.

Or should I be working at a flight school in India, where I know that immediately after graduation my student is going to be in the right seat of that heavy jet by paying his way up, especially if I have the money enough to buy that job.

How much point is there being in a flight school if I know I have to pass my student doesn't matter if he is fit to fly or not.

Believe it or not I am not welcome to be part of the uncompromising aviation system which you have in USA/OZ/CA, and thats not because I am a dishonest/unskilled/incapable pilot, its merely because I don't have the correct passport. So is it really a big deal if my Indian passport allows me to be in the RHS of the transport jet at 250 hrs.

I have been with, flown with and taught so many Indian pilots, and when I look back I know a few of them were brats, but there percentage was well within single digits, your earlier post on the other hand portrayed an experienced expat against arrogant spoilt brats. As though all Indian 250 hrs wannabe's are brats.

After all, as you state: “we may have to forgo morality” [Jimmygill]
Conscience? Integrity? Honor? Airmanship? Professionalism?


What use is airmanship if I am not an airman?
What do I do of professionalism if I am out of vocation?

I don't stand to loose my honor if I pay for job, just like the OZ/US GA pilot who washes the airplane, sweeps the hangar, cleans the vomit without getting paid for it. Those who lose honor are the HR Mgr who takes the bribe, and th OZ/USA GA firm owner who exploits the pilot.

My integrity is not at risk because the beetle chewing AI TRE passed me without me doing any thing in the sim, or because I was incapable of bringing him to books. Though it is lost the moment I stop enhancing my skills.

As far as the conscience goes mine is as clear as that of a beast.



The buzzard never says it is to blame.
The panther wouldn't know what scruples mean.
When the piranha strikes it feels no shame.
If snakes had hands, they'd claim their hands were clean.
A jackal doesn't understand remorse.
Lions and lice don't waver in their course.
Why should they when they know they're right?
Though hearts of killer whales may weigh a ton,
In every other way they're light.
On this third planet from the sun,
among the signs of bestiality
A clear conscience is Number One.

[privateer01]

You want a job in Aviation?

Its like a breakfast of bacon, Orange juice and eggs.

Chicken and the tree contributed....but the pig was committed.


I think most non Indian pilots would like to see you clean up corruption and such in India before moaning about expats.

Oh and your not a Captain till you have a First Officer under your command.

[jetzup]

Privateer 01 many Indian pilots would like to see the likes of you out of India, considering your silly comments. The demand for transparency is on...so is the fight for getting rid of corruption, and the case of expat pilots presence in India is very much included. Experienced and matured captains are most welcome to stay if genuinely there are no Indians qualified enough to replace them.

[privateer01]

Perhaps the comments are consider "silly" because you don't agree with them.....Feel free to point out the ones you thought were silly and why.

You'll find a quite a few posts back where I discussed developing infrastructure for aviation in India.

Apparantly the little infrastructure there is..... is corrupt.....correct me if I'm wrong.

I pointed out that getting your flight training in a foreign country takes jobs from Indian instructors.......correct me if I was wrong.

Are there enough Indian Pilots that are "experienced and matured" enough to replace All the expats? Who's yard stick will you be using to measure that? If its based on a corrupted system thats pay to pass.....well thats a bit frightening.

Do you feel that expats are unqualified in terms of knowlege and experience? I don't get that impression.

Do you feel that Expats are part of the problem in terms of corruption? I don't get that impression either.

So seriously.....why not clean up Indian Aviation so theres standards?

[drive73]

The problem with India is very little general aviation, so no way for the industry to have enouph qualified pilots. India may be corrupt, but this is only a small part of the problem now. 3000 hours is required for upgrade, start at 250 and you do the math. At least 4 years to even have the required time. Now just because you have the time doesn't mean you are entitled to the left seat. Out of this pool how many will take the test, pass the test? This applies to all countries. Couple this with a rapidly expanding airline environment and for the forseeable future expats will be required. And then you must actually take the atp test. About half of the qualified guys have taken the test, and not all those pass I have spoken to. This is the major issue in my oppinion.
Out of the 3000 cpl holders waiting for a job, how many do you think are still waiting, will pass the interview, pass training. If it's even 50% I would be very surprised. And I think this is one of the expats biggest beefs, just because the number is reached doesn't entitle one to a position or job. Not in India or any other country.

[jimmygill]

You want a job in Aviation?
Its like a breakfast of bacon, Orange juice and eggs.
Chicken and the tree contributed....but the pig was committed.


I didn't get it, I don't know it may be profound or silly.

I think most non Indian pilots would like to see you clean up corruption and such in India before moaning about expats.

And can you enlighten us why they will have that preference?

Apparantly the little infrastructure there is..... is corrupt.....correct me if I'm wrong.
True and agreed.


I pointed out that getting your flight training in a foreign country takes jobs from Indian instructors.......correct me if I was wrong.

Tell me how does me getting training here bring any improvement in the level of corruption in that sector?

Are there enough Indian Pilots that are "experienced and matured" enough to replace All the expats? Who's yard stick will you be using to measure that? If its based on a corrupted system thats pay to pass.....well thats a bit frightening.


Yes there are enough pilots, and if a few aircrafts don't fly, whose prerogative should it be, the expats'?
If its a frightening go and complain to FAA, go and lobby with Boeing to put hour requirements for command in the aircraft certification itself.

Do you feel that expats are unqualified in terms of knowlege and experience? I don't get that impression.

They are qualified to fly the jets, and I am qualified for traffic watch in SFO, if I am not welcome there why should I welcome expats. Is this so difficult to understand?

Do you feel that Expats are part of the problem in terms of corruption? I don't get that impression either.

Yes they are part of the problem, by mere compliance to the system. TopTup just resigned from AI, he didn't even report it to DGCA about the pressure on him to pass the sim crashing pilot. I wonder if he even did an ASRS reporting on that issue, he just kept it with himself and ocassionally blurts its out on pprune.

Notice of Apology: I have been informed that TopTup did take the necessary action of informing the authorities. Hence I render an apology on this forum pertaining to above incorrect assertion.


So seriously.....why not clean up Indian Aviation so theres standards?

What makes you think that we are not doing that already. Or are we supposed to do just that exclusively.

[Dragon 83]

I think it's been stated before, this topic was about phasing out expats.

What we have here is stone throwing and banter as to the merits of experience versus local patriotism.

If the Airlines need experience they should be allowed to source it where needed. The Airlines employs expats for that reason. We are contracted to do our work professionally and without any encumbrance to the operation. We do the work, do not create industrial action and don't call in sick to suit our schedules.

I witnessed chaos last Diwali as people called in sick as little as two hours before a rostered flight.

I have seen this behaviour on a smaller scale take place in my previous Airline in the West but these individuals are subject to discipline if they cannot support their actions.

The Airlines management also needs to improve methods of working with aircrew but should also be supported by DGCA when justifying their requirement for experience and quality when manning their fleets.

Until that criteria is satisfied the expats should be retained.

[privateer01]

I didn't get it, I don't know it may be profound or silly.


Neither the chicken or the tree gave all......tree survives and so does the chicken.

Now as in aviation......the pig made a pretty much total 100% commitment.

And can you enlighten us why they will have that preference?


Yes....because while they may or may not fight the good and true battles...at the end of the day its your country and as far as political power or ability to change.....they have rather less then Indians. At the end of the day...push it far enough and you'll be gone thanks.... for playing...don't come back...Ever!

Yes because unless you have grown up with corruption .....you take a rather dim view of it. Think three ring circus. (and might I just add....corruption wise...my country of birth is MORE corrupt then India by far).

I left a rather small country once....due to corruption. Right in the middle of airline start up. Even went and met with the countrys minister of labor and Aviation safety inspectors. Didn't change anything but at least they were told.

Tell me how does me getting training here bring any improvement in the level of corruption in that sector?


May very well not improve the level of corruption.....but it improves the level of Indian aviation. It supplies jobs and an opportunity to get experience. Experience not imparted by expats. Best way to learn something is by having to teach it.

If its a frightening go and complain to FAA, go and lobby with Boeing to put hour requirements for command in the aircraft certification itself.


Point of fact....as far as the US system...thats exactly whats happening with reference to the the regionals......Hr requirements.

They are qualified to fly the jets, and I am qualified for traffic watch in SFO, if I am not welcome there why should I welcome expats. Is this so difficult to understand?


So your complaint is that you cannot work in the USA so no one from the USA should be allowed in India? I'm not an american but I managed to get perm. residency and the ability to work. Legally. I've done the same in other countries.

People immigrate legally to the USA evry year. Granted India gets hosed when it comes to US immigration. Its a shame and something I would like to see changed.

Yes they are part of the problem, by mere compliance to the system.

It is however your system. I will agree that people need to stand up and do what is right

What makes you think that we are not doing that already. Or are we supposed to do just that exclusively

No not exclusively. That being said.....if you did fix the corruption exclusively the rest would follow. Call it the lynchpin if you will.

Rooting out corruption will lead to higher standards. As others have posted this is a pass or fail business. You either meet the standards or you don't.

[itsbrokenagain]

I see jobs advertised yesterday for Captains in India...
ATR 42/72
B737NG
A320
A300

Looks like your going to be battling a lost cause for a while boys...

[Capt Apache]

@privateer01

You got it wrong Sir.The Pig was rich.


I think most non Indian pilots would like to see you clean up corruption and such in India before moaning about expats


Can the non Indian pilots employ us to fight corruption Sir.Cause after we are done we will need the money to pay for our endorsement.


Apparantly the little infrastructure there is..... is corrupt.....correct me if I'm wrong


Little infrastructure! Been to Delhi airport lately! We are getting there Sir,Please be patient.

[Capt Apache]

Are there enough Indian Pilots that are "experienced and matured" enough to replace All the expats?


I hope that atleast 10 % of the 4000 unemployed pilots are matured.There are experienced pilots who will gradually replace atleast some of the expats.Their maturity will be decided by their respective airlines.So can we replace atleast some of the expats now? And the entire system is not corrupt Sir, like some of you try to portray.


Do you feel that Expats are part of the problem in terms of corruption?


No Sir.But even you have a social responsibility.


Do you feel that expats are unqualified in terms of knowlege and experience?


Negative again Sir.But a lot of expats do feel that way about Indians (even the ones with experience and knowledge)


I pointed out that getting your flight training in a foreign country takes jobs from Indian instructors.......correct me if I was wrong


You are absolutely right about that.That is the Mother of all you know.

[Arabian Mustang]

Granted India gets hosed when it comes to US immigration. Its a shame and something I would like to see changed.


Are you kidding? If the US changes its policy, 800 million out of the 1 billion Indians would want to migrate to the US...:}

[Mike_Kilo_Sierra]

Are you kidding? If the US changes its policy, 800 million out of the 1 billion Indians would want to migrate to the US...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Uncalled for. :=

MKS

[jatt_pilot]

hey guys i am new to this forum and it sure has a lot of useful info to be gathered, specially for low timers about all those jobs in africa ( sounds exciting):)
but i really havent been able to understand the need for this thread, i dont think the expats would be here if the airlines didnot need them, and i think if they r qualified for the job then y not let them do it cause sure as hell we r not.
some advice to other low timers like my self, i am guessing the people we are arguing with over here are quite senior to us, so please show some respect.
as long as they r here we should try and learn some thing from them rather than entering into a mud slinging match. :ok:

[privateer01]

Are you kidding? If the US changes its policy, 800 million out of the 1 billion Indians would want to migrate to the US...

Well thats not nice.....

My point was....there are a lot of people in the USA illegally.

Frankly the ones who broke the law should be returned to where they came from and people should be allowed to immigrate legally.

If your from India.....I believe the latest figures show an 8 yr wait for legal immigration.

[jatt_pilot]

uh y again are we talking about illegal immigrants sounds a little out of context

Aviation India: Careers: Expat pilots likely to get another year to fly Indian skies (http://indianaviationnews.net/careers/2010/04/expat-pilots-likely-to-get-another-year.html)

Caught between the demands of Indian carriers to extend the July 30 deadline for returning 600-odd expat pilots employed with them and the rising number of jobless desi co-pilots, the government may give a final extension of one year for sending back the foreigners. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has got a number of representations from airlines here, who essentially say that their services would be severely affected and many planes grounded if the July 30 deadline is not extended.
The regulator is now learnt to be planning to give one more year subject to condition that airlines ensure career progression of Indian pilots. The idea: Only when desi co-pilots are upgraded to captains, will airlines start hiring the over 3,000 unemployed co-pilots. "We want this to be the final extension and are trying to devise ways to ensure airlines keep their promise. The extension may have to be given as safety cannot be compromised," said a senior official.
On their part, airlines have told DGCA that there is a paucity of experienced Indian commanders.
"Keeping experienced foreign commanders will allow airlines to recruit Indian co-pilots while still maintaining required safety levels in the cockpit. After recommended training, the fresh recruits can be paired with an experienced commander," said the airline official.

makes sense doesnt it ???

[Dragon 83]

Reading a lot last couple days about extensions, wonder whether this will include 4 year guys as well.

[itsbrokenagain]

Add to this the fact there are at least 5 ads placed in the last week on some well known employment websites listing the carriers who you will work for and the salary package even, I dont think these darn expats will be leaving anytime soon. A lot of the jobs are for just straight captains, not even TRI's.

Maybe its time just to live with it and wait your turn, like a normal country... (and yes my native country took in a lot of expats when I was a green horn, but I was never bitter and twisted about it, it never crossed my mind actually I knew they were there for a reason)

[VIMANMAN]

I have a ?

ALL this talk about Expats leaving and the DGCA continuing to extend the deadline.....

From the Airline point of view, if they actually did get rid of all the expats, then wouldnt they save a lot of RS. as locals cost to company is not nearly as high as "pharenerz" right.....so maybe just maybe the true reason is that there are not enough Indian Commanders to replace the expats.....and safety should be paramount....

just my 2 paisa

[411A]

so maybe just maybe the true reason is that there are not enough Indian Commanders to replace the expats.....and safety should be paramount....


Quite likely.
In this reasoned way, largish smoking holes are eliminated.

Who cares if the young'uns complain?
They don't run the show...if fact, they don't run anything.
Nothing but whine...whine....whine.:rolleyes:

[xuejiesandi]

well my trouble is not expats here...my trouble is being an expat...I will add my name to advocating expats in India the day I'll be allowed to be an expat in foreign countries...(European, American & others)...till then expats go work in your places....

[HAWK21M]

Was reading the posts on this thread.

Although I'm from Maintenance.I can relate to the posters on Passion for the job & the struggle to achieve ones goal,honestly & with hard work.

At times the system around you makes things difficult to follow ones policy which is correct.The folks doing that end up slowing their progress,but personally I rather be slow & struggle but learn the basics & build a strong foundation.

[pilotara]

As long as companies expand and the need for experience pilots is there , expats will always have a job. 250 and 550 hour pilots coming from flying cessnas getting their multi engine rating in the sim of a 737 or A320 its not safe. I fly in india and i have flown with guys that have been in the right seat for 2 years but the only thing they do is ...paperwork. Companies need experience pilots not wannabes. I have watched crews (majority Indians) coming on board of the plane 5-10 mins prior to schedule departure, no walk around no check list basically a very unsafe environment.
CRM is non existed and maintenance is getting better but still not up to the highest of standards. Indian Aviation is young and there is a lot of potential here .
Indian pilots work in a lot of companies outside india as expats (Qatar, Emirates, etc etc) and its ok for them but once they come back in India expats must go !!! In india everything is a copy of the western world. They want to be ''white'' gora as they say, the have copied every US or European show and lifestyle.
If expat pilots leave from India , the salaries of the local pilots will get reduced and they don't seem to get it. Indians cannot be trusted (my opinion) and I discovered that from the first month i came to India ''if you see a snake and an Indian on the street who would you kill first'' it was the phrase everyone told me to remember. Everything is about putting a show but when it comes to get things done the cannot comply....There is no airmanship and Indian Captains are apparently God's gift to aviation from personal experience even if they are wrong they will never admitted.
My contract comes to an end and despite the extension DGCA approved I have a lot of doubts about renewing it. I am doing contracts for few years now and I have to say that India has a long way to go.......Maybe one day !!!
Keep the blue side up and be safe

[Dragon 83]

Well the reality is such that many of us here four years will apparently not get renewals. Not certain why the 4 year thing is in place.

Ironically some new type rated expats are being processed behind us which make no sense whatever.

[NGFellow]

A320/B777/B737NG Expat Capts at AI/9W/SG/Indigo/KF etc. If your contract/FATA is not being renewed or you just want to leave there is an opportunity with Turkish Airlines for DEC positions. The opportunity is being listed by WASINC and some other agencies as well. Contract is directly with the airline for 1 year (renewable). T&C's are ok, but you are closer to home.

[xuejiesandi]

why don't they make it all open...a pilot should be able to get work anywhere...as pilotara (http://www.pprune.org/members/136649-pilotara) says European & Americans are better than us then just make it open so Indians can go & learn the HARD WAY...by finding small work...in the field..I don't wanna upset anyone..I agree you guys might have more experience as compare to some Indian pilots...but fact is they never had the oppertunity.

People here also have a right to fulfill their wishes or at least to work for it...GA is non-existent...so what must an Indian newbie do??? wait till he's old enough to let his medical expires..because as I see GORAs :) can go work wherever they please so in the end with more experience but Indians can't seem to find work anywhere...people prefer to kill their ambitions before the snakes...

Now till the time..it doesn't happen I guess you'll find complains & also repulsion to a certain extent. I'm an Expat..working outside..& I tell you every time I'm told to get a visa even to go & find work...it pains..& for Americans, Europeans its just go...dish out CVs & find work...am I not human enough to even get a chance to try???

[privateer01]

Speaking as an Expat......and having lived in various countries.......

Its really sucks for the up and coming pilots. (from any country)

Because with experience and a few type ratings (and flight hrs on those type ratings) you can really pick and choose where you want to work.

A Visa in just about any country is easier with a sponsor. (USA included)

Without a business sponsor....its damn near improbable.

With 250 - 500 hrs.....no one wants to give you a chance much less a sponsorship

Sad fact is Indian companies are sponsoring expats.

The Indian companies have convinced cajoled or cashed the appropriate people and the government issues work visas.

If the situation in Europe or the USA were reversed.....there would be companies sponsoring visas in both places.

[xuejiesandi]

Very well said privateer (http://www.pprune.org/members/76956-privateer01),

If one is free to work & find work everywhere...there shouldn't be any complains...I would like to travel & like to be allowed to work everyplace... that is if I deserve...if my level of expertise permits...

I said earlier, as an Indian I don't mind anyone from anywhere coming here & working, as long as I'm not being paralyzed by some unfavorable entry requirements... in these conditions we do not have the opportunity to gain necessary GA experience..as there's no GA

Everyone's welcome as long as they welcome us...

[pilotara]

Where are you not welcome..... there Indians working all over the world. Don;t take it personally but a 250 hour pilot regardless of his nationality he is not suitable and safe behind an airplane such as B737, A320 etc etc. Get an instructor rating , instruct build time get experience.
When I was starting it took me 6 years before i get my first job as a airline pilot...and i was a foreigner too plus 9-11 plus my darker complexion etc etc...I did not expected a job with 250 hours. had to get to 2000 befor i get an interview !
I respected guys with more experience than me and i tried to pick their brains and learn....and I can care less of the nationality a well trained and experienced pilot is an ASSET for a company !!! instead of complaining about expats maybe you should see how you can better your self as an aviator and pay your dues like everyone else. Nothing comes easy in this line of work my friend and if you think i am harsh I am sorry but reality is tough !!! You want my advise, get an instructor rating and a college degree (if you don't have one), make your self more marketable and BELIEVE me your time will come !!!
And my friend GORA's cannot go and work anywhere they want and as they please......they have to be experienced. I am sure you don't see 250 hour GORA's working in India.. They all have alot of years of experience and thousands of hours.

Be safe

[rdr]

in my previous post, i did put the blame squarely on the authorities such as the DGCA, MOCA, Aviation Minister, politicians, press, babus.....etc, who dont have a clue about the industry. well the truth is....they still dont. how does a nation evolve a master blueprint to cater for this most specialised everchanging science. from general aviation, to airports, flying training schools, proper maintainence, a system of auditing at all levels.......a whole mind boggling array of specialisation to ensure a workable and SAFE environment for the benefit of all its citizens ?? the situation is lumbering along as well as it should, warts and all. the truth is that it is just a few people, with links to aviation, IPL, politics, underworld, money laundering, who are taking the entire country for a daily ride. the rest dance for them.

nothing will firstly improve until there is a reduction of corruption, nepotism, (like AI cancelling flights at the whim of a ministers daughter, and proudly justifying it as a commercial requirement), self interest and, basic down to goodness GREED. if at all, there is some improvement here, and there is a serious attempt to set things right, the industry will still need expat help. its not the skills which are lacking, but the mindset which has to CHANGE.

i do emphatise with the many who face a dead end as far as their careers are concerned. i do not believe its forever, but, a system which refuses to allow improvement or change, so one safe guards his own territory at any cost, needs to be cleaned up.

[xuejiesandi]

pilotara (http://www.pprune.org/members/136649-pilotara)

I respect the amount of effort & hard work you've done to build brick by brick..but please understand this..we Indians are not anyway less keen to work (of course with a few exceptions, that I'm quite sure would be available even in your demography)...

I have an Instructor rating..I would like to work & build hours..but where???:ugh: USA?? Australia?? Europe???...I said I'm an expat..I'm trying to work wherever I can...I'm not sitting home & waiting for Expats to move, so that all FOs can move to left & place can be vacant for me (It made me feel good though for a moment there :ok:)...I know that can't happen till I, myself have enough slogging...

Trust me!! no one here at least me of all ain't denying the importance of hard work...but please consider the situation..you (I dont mean you in person) wake up a day buy an air ticket show up on immigration & end-up getting three months inside a country...how about me??? I have to find supporting documents, show hotel reservations, invitation letters, bank account details..& a :mad:return ticket...then I get one month touring permit. which screams NO EMPLOYMENT...how do I work?? I would love to have 3000 hours before applying for anything more than 10 seater...but where do I get those 3000 hours???

I totally buy your & everyone advocating expats point...I would love them to sit left..but please lemme go to your places & gain some GA hours....If not than I'll shout, crib...whatever it takes to put bread on my table....

[drive73]

I think the thing you guys who want to work in the US, UK, AUS and so on is, there are no jobs. Even for highly qualified people. How can you expect to be an expat in a country who has a depressed aviation industry. The reason expats are in India and China, Korea is because they have rapidly growing aviation industries, with no general aviation for time building.
You better start looking at places like Africa if you want to build time. If you think waiting for the aviation industry in the US to turn around you will be waiting for awhile.
Expat is supply and demand driven, no demand no job. Look for places who have demand. It may be in something small, probably in a crappy part of the world and may be a little dangerous, but this is what time building is. Good luck and have fun..

[xuejiesandi]

drive73 (http://www.pprune.org/members/297685-drive73)

I was just mentioning a few name...didn't mean to point any specific place...Interestingly even if there was demand..still its tougher for us to go work there than other way round...

[drive73]

Your still missing the point. It is hard because there is no demand. There are plenty of Indians working in the US, UK and other countries. They work in fields who have demand, like medical, technical. India is incredibly hard to work as an expat in fields that don't have demand, logistically impossible. You need to understand there is more going on in the world than aviation.
Only a very few get through life without paying dues. You may not get a job for 5, 10 years in your 737, this puts you ahead of most of us who didn't see a jet until we had 4, 5 thousand hours or more. The biggest thing missing flying with Indian F/o's is I have nothing to talk to them about. They have no life experience, no flight stories from previous jobs. When they turned 20 they were hired on at XXX airline and thats it. So go to Africa or somewhere where demand for instructors and pilots is high, gain some life and flight experience so when you do get hired, we can swap stories and laugh about all the times we just about died.. Be patient your time will come if you just keep focused and stop worrying about things you can't control.

[xuejiesandi]

drive73 (http://www.pprune.org/members/297685-drive73)

I ain't missing it..you probably trying to tell me what I must do...rather thinking why am I (as in me) not doing it...I don't mean any offense; I value your advice..but what makes you think that I haven't done that already:cool:...

No way I'm suggesting that you're wrong..my point is, out of 10, at least 7 would know that they'll have to work hard..Indians included:hmm:...there is a pretty strong reason they're not doing it...they're not able to by biased entry requirements..that's the reason you see uncomfortableness & complains:oh:... please try & understand rather painting them as brats...

[Capt Apache]

@xuejiesandi

I think I know what you are getting at...Your unedited post did make a lot more sense.

Here we go.Is it really the recession or something else.
H1-B visas lose charm as recession stalks US- Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/H1B-visas-lose-charm-as-recession-stalks-US/H1-Article1-537378.aspx)

In addition, this intensified scrutiny extended to US airports where those with H1Bs, especially from India, were entering the country.

Hmm...

[drive73]

I never painted them as brats. I only stated I have nothing in common with them. They don't have life or aviation experience. Only a very few are arrogant and spoiled, like anywhere else in the world.
You still are missing it.. There will never be expats in the US, UK, Aus. There is no demand, we have so many qualified pilots and a general aviation industry to grow more. India sends home more money from the US, UK, and many other countries, than any other nation on this planet. 1 in 6 doctors in the US is Indian. The reason they are working in the US is we need them. There aren't enouph qualified medical personel in the US. This is the way it works in any country. Do you find any 250hr US expats in the right seat of the 737 in India? Do you think it would be easy for this 250 hr person to get a job in India? Are there US flight instructors in India? Far more doors are open to Indians in other countries than India opens for other countries. India has taken more jobs due to outsourcing than just about any other country. There are millions without jobs in the US who would be more than happy to have there call center jobs back. This is why people don't feel real bad if 2000 expats come to India and send some money home. This is a global world now and you have sectors which open in other countries to you and you have sectors that open up to other countries. It has never and never will be a free for all. Look outside of aviation and see just how much Indians benefit from work and working abroad, as well as how many jobs are created from outside India companies.

[fullforward]

Botom line: everywhere in the world, there are thousands of youngsters who dream about being an airline pilot.
But, at certain point one have to realise that they simply can't afford that, for many different reasons, the main of course is simply market laws.

So why spend precious time and money (usually father's) on pursuing a dream that have very dim chances to come true? Aviation career, except for a few lucky ones, is plenty of frustrations and have been losing a big part of its charm and 'package value' it had in the past.
Why not go to a prestige University, have a good degree on Engineering (India have a strong requirement for infrastructure for the next 50 years at least); or Medicine, IT or being a good lawyer?

Trust me, there are thousands of pilots all over the world that deeply regret for pursuing this career. Just check what happened with this industry in the latest 20 years. And there's no signs of any improvement in the foreseable future.
Don't limit your options, life is much more than get strapped on a shiny jet.:ok:

[drive73]

Apache this is a good article. I wish we had some numbers on how many visa's India allows for foriegn workers?

[xuejiesandi]

Capt Apache (http://www.pprune.org/members/181175-capt-apache)

I edited it as I thought it was too harsh...& at this point I think enough being said...we;as in all of us; can't agree everyone...Hard work & focus are the keys...no one is inferior or superior/idiot or genius ..all make effort, if not all, a big lot is honest...& the world is b-e-a-utiful...

I sign out of this thread..wishing everyone all the success

[Capt Apache]

@drive73


I wish we had some numbers on how many visa's India allows for foriegn workers?



Dont worry Sir,We won't let you go empty handed or should I say that America won't allow us to let it go empty handed :)

US dictating India's big defence deals?: Rediff.com India News (http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/feb/20/us-dictating-indias-big-defence-deals.htm)

[drive73]

Lol.. Yep the US gov has there hands in everything. It's too bad it doesn't know how to balance it's own check book.

[av8r76]

You're right about that but atleast they provide enough to everyone to avoid violent insurrection from its own people.

The books can be cooked but try bringing back the 70 odd lives lost in a matter of minutes. And the body count will only climb as time goes by.

Glass house buddy.

[Capt Apache]

Now thats valid criticism if we minus the Glass house bit Which America as a matter of fact is so keen on investing in all the time.Americans are smart people.They wont invest in a glass house buddy.

[Capt Apache]

Here are some sensationalist claims made by our American friends.

US asks India to raise cap FDI in defence to 49% - dnaindia.com (http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_us-asks-india-to-raise-cap-fdi-in-defence-to-49pct_1352396)

"Reforms to date have made Indian companies leaders in areas such as IT, pharmaceuticals, telecommunications, and now increasingly, in manufacturing as well as in clean energy. We
hope the India will seize the opportunity to undertake new
reforms that will both attract new investment and propel
higher growth," Assistant Secretary of State for South and
Central Asia Robert Blake has said.

Calling India as a rising global power, soon to be the world's most populous country, with a trillion dollar-plus economy, Blake said it is a model of a tolerant pluralistic society in the region :ok:

Beleive it or not.

[thornycactus]

in my previous post, i did put the blame squarely on the authorities such as the DGCA, MOCA, Aviation Minister, politicians, press, babus.....etc, who dont have a clue about the industry.
DGCA is to be blamed partially. They are to be blamed for no organisation. However the biggest blame is on air-operators!


Air operators are the ones engaging expats! Expats are temporary and they will leave as long as their contract is not renewed.

Protest against air operators first than expats.

[Capt Apache]

Expats are temporary and they will leave as long as their contract is not renewed.



No Sir,
Expats will be here as long as demand persists.The fact is that If they were to be sent back now Indian companies would have had to cancel their orders for the aeroplanes they have committed to buy.There just aren’t enough Captains here.Having said that I think that the market will still be able to accommodate allot of newbies in the near future.

And lets not forget the fact that expats do bring a lot of value(other than some :mad:).Look here.A company like Infosys is recruiting Expats

Infosys to hire 1,000 expats this year-Jobs-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/jobs/Infosys-to-hire-1000-expats-this-year/articleshow/5870365.cms)

[thornycactus]

No Sir, Expats will be here as long as demand persists.
Precisely! I am rounding somebody who can respond to my posting.

I am telling everybody that do not blame the expat. Air-operators are to be blamed!

If there is a demand for experience pilots that means air-operators have to rely on expats.

[Capt Apache]

Indigo plans to take deliveries of 22 aircraft in 2 years.Spicejet will add 9 more aircraft by then.Who is going to sit in the left seat? How many people are qualified? If you have an ATPL license does it mean you are automatically fit to become a Captain ?

[drive73]

Blame the airlines??? Lets think about this. 1 billion + people a tiny airline industry and you want airlines to stop growing, send expats home, which will ground airplanes currently flying. You will probably be the first to complain about no flights and high ticket prices. Good forsight, you must work for the government..

[Capt Apache]

you want airlines to stop growing, send expats home, which will ground airplanes currently flying


That is so true.The problem is that people keep coming up with these conspiracy theories....Like there is some sinister plan at work behind the scenes to deliberately hurt local interests.They say....You know they are all corrupt...Taking money to recruit expats....Everybody's involved....Its all a scandal.....And yet if expats stop flying the same people will scream....You know...I told you he doesn't know how to run a company....He screwed up....Planes are grounded....This will be followed by another conspiracy theory.....There is no dearth of Einsteins here.

[drive73]

Ya, totally agree. They make far more money from fleecing the local pilots. They just can't see no general aviation in India means few qualified guys join these airlines and it will take time to develop a 250 hour pilot into a captain. With the rate of growth airlines in India have and the potential growth available, means expats are here for quite some time. Unless the industry starts shrinking.

[Capt Apache]

no general aviation in India


Thats the most relevant question for any Pilot in this country.If only Pilots here were less concerned with Hotels,Allowances,Seniority,Rank,Promotion and Of course Overtime, they would have been able to concentrate efforts on this only REAL issue confronting Indian aviation.This is the root of everything that is wrong with aviation in this country

[Capt Apache]

Incorrect news...So deleted...Sorry

[fullforward]

Something very intriguing: why 70% of India international air traffic (I mean 70% of international passengers traffic) are made by international operators?
Lufthansa, Emirates, Air France, Delta, Brittish etc etc etc dominate the air transport to/from India.
This is because the locals have no competence to establish a healthy air transport industry, fueled by the gigantic corruption and the lack of any law to protect local carriers, or what?
Or there's some misterious reason for that?
Why Air India turned into a so shameful crumpled skeleton of an airline?
Why the 5th "recovery plan" in less than one yer wasn't accepted yet?

Why the only airline indians should be proud of has finding such a hard way to survive?

Strange country.:confused:

[Wannabe Flyer]

Why the only airline Indians should be proud of has finding such a hard way to survive?

Not sure which airline you are talking about

Please advise

a. Jet Airways
b. Kingfisher
c. Indigo
d. Spice Jet
e. Go

I would however agree with you that AI (yet to come cross any India who is proud of its current day Avatar) is having a hard time and that is probably because it is being run by politicians who much like their breed across the world have their own interest in mind.

This is because the locals have no competence to establish a healthy air transport industry, fueled by the gigantic corruption and the lack of any law to protect local carriers, or what?

Now that is a bit contradictory and from when I last checked free trade and healthy competition is good for the industry and passengers. If you feel the locals lack the competence to establish an airline then by that argument a law to protect local airlines would be terrible for the safety in the sky. As far as the thread it is more about the local labor laws.

I think it is called open skies policy. India’s Open Skies Policy (http://www.financialexpress.com/news/indias-open-skies-policy/44901/) read and learn :ugh:

[Capt Apache]

@fullforward


Something very intriguing: why 70% of India international air traffic (I mean 70% of international passengers traffic) are made by international operators?

1. Because this is a Sunrise sector
2. Because various restrictions have been imposed (in my opinion) to protect a company that had already established and distinguished itself since its inception in 1993.The first restriction is to do with the mandatory 5 years of operation before international exposure.The second restriction is to do with the equity required for a start up.Jet Airways had distinguished itself as a market leader in the country and it is only fair that it was given a headstart in international operations due to merit.It is precisely such smart thinking and good regulations that kept Indian banks immune to the onslaught last year.Strange Country….Sure, but a smart one!
Domestic operations accounted for only 44 per cent of its revenues in the last Quarter.

If you are referring to Jet Airways as the airline Indians should be proud of ,you should also know that they posted a profit last quarter.Are you trying to make us believe that Jet Airways is the only company in the world that struggled in the last few years.Why forget companies in Europe and America.

Kindly do your own research on what happened to Air India; the erstwhile Maharaja of India.How it was taken over by the government ? And why it was taken over from Tata? Since you have proved that your knowledge about this country is dismal,take that as a homework.:) Yours Kindly

[drive73]

There are about 2 airlines in the world who have a relavent business model. Most opperate from a 70 year old money losing model. Most of the Indian carriers put out a very nice product. I would much rather sit on a spice, jet, indigo than delta, united, cal or just about any other airline in the world. They need to change the business models, and not mess with the end product.