"Hold short of the RW"

[honey737]

Hi to everyone,

I am a bit confused and need some guidance please.

I have read similar topic in the archive but still it is not clear to me.

CAP413 says that term "Hold Short" means:

"Stop before reaching the specified location.
Note: Only used in limited circumstances where no defined
point exists (e.g. where there is no suitably located holding
point), or to reinforce a clearance limit."

So for instance I get the clearance "taxi via TW A hold short RW 33"
and there is holding point markings on the TW (cat 1, or dashed and solid lines). Can I proceed beyond those lines to hold near to the RW or not?
Because some times those lines could be very far from the rw, which is more likely marks the ILS sensitive area.

I understand that if there are no markings then you would have to judge by yourself where to stop.

Please if you have any references to a document I would appreciate that.

Thanks

[Defruiter]

My advice - if unsure, ask the controller.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a specific answer to your query though.

DF:ok:

[Gonzo]

If there are markings on the taxiway you must stop there. If you cross those then it's a runway incursion (also, it might be the ILS critical area rather than the sensitive area).

If there are no markings where you have been asked to hold short of something, then you should stop short of the signage describing that location.

[timelapse]

4444 says that "hold short" means:

"to hold not closer to a runway
than specified in Part V, 10.3."

Part V, 10.3 says:

"Except as provided in 10.3.1 or as prescribed by
the appropriate ATS authority, aircraft shall not be held closer
to the runway-in-use than at a runway-holding position."

So it doesn't specify whether you should stop at Cat 1 or Cat 2/3 bars... but if in doubt!

[ILS 119.5]

I've only heard "hold short" used when there are no markings i.e. when an a/c is told to hold short of a crossing taxiway due to traffic crossing ahead or for crossing runways when both runways are in use

[timelapse]

Well at EGLL, we use it in approximately every other transmission on GMC and quite a substantial number on TWR as well.

[Standard Noise]

No ATCO should ever say 'hold short of runway xx'. Don't give a toss what any book says, it's bad practice and will lead to a runway incursion. I've seen this very thing happen at my unit in the last 12 months. The ATCO involved had a talking to from me afterwards.

Should you ever be given an instruction telling you to 'hold short of runway xx', you should ask for clarification of exactly where you are to hold.

SN,
Unit Competancy Examiner,
Out-in-the-sticks International

[criss]

So what should we all be saying?

[Standard Noise]

That all depends on what you are, criss.

[Geffen]

SN, At EGLL used all the time, with the addition of the runway entry point, all in a bid to reduce incursions. Seen it stop incursions, not sure where you are coming from.

[radarman]

Where did the R/T phrase 'Hold short of...' originate? If it's just got into the aviation lexicon through casual use it is dangerous, because without a well-defined interpretation it can mean all things to all men. So, regardless of experience at LHR, controllers using it should not be surprised if a pilot interprets it in a manner different to what they intended.

Has the phrase migrated from the USA, where LAHSO procedures are commonplace? If so, it's dangerous to use the phrase here without the well-defined procedures and associated runway/taxyway markings required by LAHSO.

[Standard Noise]

Geffen - my point is that I have seen the phrase cause an incursion when directed toward an aircraft or vehicle. Pilot/driver was told 'hold short of runway xx' and the pilot taxied/driver proceeded past the holding point towards the edge of the runway. Not sure how much clearer I can make that.
IMHO, I don't see how it can be as safe as 'hold at (holding point)' or 'taxy to (holding point)'. But maybe that's just the silly old safety conscious UCE in me.

[criss]

SN - TWR/GND controller. ANd by we, I meant other people working these positions as well.

As mentioned, "hold short" is clearly defined, and if a pilot doesn't know what it means and uses his own made-up interpretations, he shouldn't be a pilot.

While working GMC, I will almost always use "taxi to holding point via", as it is logical to use. But there are cases when I would use hold short of, like when someone reports not ready for departure, or vacating after landing into a taxiway where crossing another runway is required.

[radarman]

criss,

If 'hold short' is clearly defined, why is there so much confusion on this thread? Can you let us know where (for UK purposes) it is clearly defined, then we can all sleep peacefully, safe in the knowledge that pilots and controllers are interpreting the phrase in a safe and consistent manner.

[honey737]

Thank you very much to everyone for the good replies.

I would agree with Radarman that if "Hold short" was clearly defined I would not ask that question.

I am a pilot and myself I have never had any doubts where I should stop if I got such a clearance, I would always use the holding point or other appropriate markings. I should say I have never seen in Europe any other pilot crossing holding point markings to hold short of the runway.

I am in China now. I have seen that a lot of planes when get the clearance to hold short of the RW proceed beyond the holding points markings. After that we had the discussion with one of my colleagues and he said that he would do the same as others did.

Part V, 10.3 seems quite specific saying that: "aircraft shall not be held closer to the runway-in-use than at a runway-holding position"

Obviously if any plane goes beyond the holding point and enters critical ILS area will induce some interference for arriving aircraft. That might be ok in CAVOK but not in bad weather. And as we can see from the definition of "Hold Short" it has no reference to weather.

[Geffen]

SN,

Fair point. I would certainly advocate the use of the holding point, without, it does tend to leave a certain ambiguity as to the position. All the wigwags, taxiway markings and R/T is still not going stop the crew/driver who misinterprets and instruction and overshoots the hold.

Maybe we need car park style barriers at each entry point :)

[TWR]

Ref. ICAO DOC 9432 Manual of RTF.


4.4.2 When a taxi clearance contains a taxi limit beyond a runway, it shall contain an explicit clearance to cross, or an instruction to hold short of that runway.


Which other phraseo can we use to be more clear than this ? It's even a mandatory readback-item.

As for where to hold short; use the CAT 1 markings. In LVP use the CAT II markings.

No stopbar ? Look up the distance to remain clear from the RWY. It's also published and depends on type of rwy.

[criss]

"Hold at the holding point", "taxi via taxiway centerline", "cleared to land in the touchdown zone"...

Radarman - because people fail to know regulations?

[zoneman]

This is absolutely correct! No other explanation needed!

[Passenger 9]

Just like standard noise says - it is bad RT - and one day there will be a loud crunch as 2 aircraft meet.

[AMF]

Passenger 9 Hold Short = rubbish

Just like standard noise says - it is bad RT - and one day there will be a loud crunch as 2 aircraft meet.

It's perfectly acceptable and absolutely clear RT. The taxiway ends and the runway begins at the lines delineating the 2. Defining the 2 different areas are what the lines are for. Taxi past them and you're officially on the runway. Do so without a "Line up and wait", "Cleared for takeoff", or "Cleared to cross/back taxi" clearance earns you an incursion.

If there's a loud crunch after a pilot doesn't adhere to a "hold short of runway etc" clearance limit it will be on the head of the pilot who doesn't know their basic rules regarding signage and markings, and thinks it's up to them to decide where the "runway" begins after taxiing past paint on the pavement that defines it for them.

This is very, very basic stuff.

[Short Approach?]

DOC 9432 - Manual of Radiotelephony


4.4 Taxi instructions

When a taxi clearance contains a taxi limit beyond a runway, it shall contain an explicit clearance to cross, or an instruction to hold short of that runway.

Example:

Fastair123 taxi holding point RWY 22 via taxiways BRAVO and CHARLIE, hold short of RWY 12.


Now making up your own phraseology... That's what's dangerous.